Pentecostal and Charismatic Should be Seperated

Kendall Sholtess said:

Pentecostal and Charismatic Base packages should be separated and distinguished from each other.

[Y]

Custom base packages would be awesome. If you could pick and choose sets of things, that would be lovely. Certain commentary sets are appealing. I would love to be able to chose from across the spectrum of these different packages and piece together something. I realize you can buy those sets independently, but budget wise it seems a bit deflating to pay for a bunch of things you don't/might not use to get something else at a discount or just enable the full features. 

Most pastors are probably pleased to grab something from their camp, though, and keep it simple.

I see things in different packages that interest me, but the whole packages on most aren't so appealing. I am not in a hurry though.

Mark said:

I have always understood what is called the so called 3 waves of the Holy Spirit.  The first wave being the Pentecostal wave beginning around 1900.  This wave formed the basis of several Pentecostal groups.  The second wave began around the 1960s and is known as the charismatic movement where Pentecostal doctrines jumped into some mainstream denominational churches, thus creating the Charismatic movement. The third wave began about 1980 with the teachings of men like Peter Wagner and John Wimber and is also known as the modern apostolic movement.  These 3 waves are not the same, but are often referred to as waves in the sense that one wave affects another and those affects can blur the lines between the 3 waves.

Well stated, Mark.  That's a perfect description as far as I'm concerned, and I'm a traditional Pentecostal who also wishes Logos would have broken up the classifications.  Putting Pentecostals, Charismatics, and 3rd Wave NARs under the same umbrella is like putting Reformed, Baptists, and Lutherans under the same umbrella.  Can you imagine the screaming that would have gone on if that scenario had ever unfolded in Logos? 

But hey, we are just lowly "Spirit-filled" chandelier swingers, so it's okay to lump all of us together.  Sigh...

MJ. Smith said:

Thank you Mark and Kendall - what was missing for me was I'd not heard of the third wave. Something new to track down a bit about.

It's not in Logos MJ but I suspect that you would find Steven Jack Land's Pentecostal Spirituality enlightening as an analysis of Pentecostal origins.

Scott said:

I disagree with breaking up P&C. We don't need any more factioning and division among us. We need more unity! If our origins and constructs are slightly different, that just means we may have something to learn from each other. Referring to the nuances and inessential beliefs and practices, of course. Obviously the essential, cardinal tenets of the faith are non-negotiaoble. On those essential points P&C are almost always in agreement. We are on the same team. We have the same Spirit. I wonder what the Spirit would say about this? More division? Or unity and understanding?

It is my belief that the future of the movement is a mix of Pentecostal and Charismatic. P&Cs will learn from each other's teachings. Where the old said "us and them"; the young will say "we".
 The future is unity as we move closer to the return of our Lord Jesus! Let's not do anything out of alignment with that Spirit.

With all that said, I agree the P&C packages have been weak. I am all for Custom packages--if possible. But breaking up P&C is not the right move.

Please just simply ask the Holy Spirit if this is the kinda thing He would do.

Blessings!

👍

I'm not a P or a C (this sub-forum). But I'd assume most packages begin with C vs P (Catholic/Protestant), and then pursue a degree of emphasis, since few groups are tremendously fleshed out in Logos. A similar situation occurs between Baptist, and Restoration. Baptist doesn't have any restoration emphasis, so you mix/match here and there, to get discussion.

And I'd presume the Spirit is potentially among all of them.

MJ. Smith said:

Having a base package of a particular flavor requires a sufficient market

This is probably at the root of the problem, in my experience my Pentecostal colleagues are not as interested in tools like Logos and tend to stick with the denominational publisher.

MJ. Smith said:

In addition, there must be sufficient materials available to generate marketable upgrades when new versions are released.

Point above creates an issue as I think most of the denominational publishers have not engaged with Logos at least in part because they still get good revenue from members buying books from them.

MJ. Smith said:

The resource sales must support both the base packages and their updates; this may require a level of sales from users of different traditions.

I understand the commercial considerations I think the challenge for Logos is understanding whether they would make more revenue from 2 smaller packages than they do from the single combined one.

MJ. Smith said:

QUESTION: Is there a sufficient market to support two traditions separately.

I doubt that they have enough data to make an informed decision.

I agree that there is the inevitable overlap in materials based on the many forks in the road that have got us to where we are today, for most of us that is just a case of understanding the journey that brought our faith tradition here. Looking back is interesting especially when you hear someone dismiss some Church Fathers as "Catholic" while adopting others because they are "Protestant" when this is clearly an invalid approach. Personally I see the need to include different materials because of the historical development of a denomination as being very different to the contemporary authors that are included where they are speaking from a theological perspective that is now formed.

An obvious example would be John Wesley whose influence on early Pentecostalism is clear through the Holiness Movement and his Church Organisation approach. Where this would be add odds with many Charismatics for most traditional Pentecostals the theology of Wesley is definitely a stop on the journey. His works may predate the emergence of Pentecostalism but there is a clear link on the family tree for most Pentecostals.

As someone who has owned Logos since the early days I am used to identifying the resources that are useful to me without relying on the denominational tag. I do feel though that Logos seems to lack awareness of just how different Pentecostals and Charismatics can be in both origins and theological views and why they really don't belong together (IMHO).

We are not to compromise truth for the sake of unity. The antichrist spirits have that same strategy. I agree that unity is important, but it is unity around truth and perfect unity will be in eternity. There are some fringes of this movement that have so departed from scripture, I don't even know if people in these circles don't have the Holy Spirit or just have more than one spirit at work-- in which case REPENTANCE is in order, not compromise. It is disconcerting and people are being harmed. There is a total lack of discernment in many right now. God knows. Our loyalty is always to the Lord above men first. We need to be in prayer now more than ever. God bless and keep all.

I would love to see Logos do a "build your own" type package.

We have a new "version" of the bible out that is utter garbage and it's being embraced. The story behind it is disconcerting as is the "translation" itself. If you don't know what I am talking about, please do some research as there are more than a few things that are concerning. 

There will be MANY that the Lord says to depart who think they are doing the works of God. 

Scott said:

You're focusing on differences and not similarities.

Agreed but the whole system of collections is premised on differences if it was not then Logos would not have introduced them. This was a commercial decision that has commercial implications for the buyer.

Scott said:

Again, I'm talking about asking what the Holy Spirit would have and not what your pocketbook, denomination, or origin would have.

This is clearly a deliberately loaded question. In my view the Holy Spirit would definitely want us to invest in materials that properly reflect the Gospel and broader message of the Bible as we understand it and to be good stewards of our finances in the investments that we make whether these purchases come from within our denomination or not. The inevitable by product of the positive view is the negative view that we should avoid wasting finances on materials that promote views that we see as full of errors with the obvious exception of those resources required to better understand the errors and guide others away from them.

The primary question that needs to be asked is whether there is genuinely enough content currently in Logos to offer separate collections filled with relevant resources for each group ? If not then this is a mere a moot philosophical discussion, if the answer is yes then it's a question that can lead to an genuine outcome.

And if the answer is not then someone from each group needs to take up the baton and champion resources relevant to that group being added to Logos so it can move from a philosophical question to a practical outcome.

Kendall Sholtess said:

Pentecostal and Charismatic Base packages should be separated and distinguished from each other.

A Pentecostal Base Package should have something similar to the Wesleyan Base Package with additional works by strictly Pentecostal publishers. Other works that could be added are some from the Baptist stream. It is not appropriate to add works which stem from the independent Charismatic movement, such as C. Peter Wagner, Dutch Sheets, Cindy Jacobs, et al. Theologically and practically they are very different from Pentecostals.

A Charismatic Base package should include Baptist, Presbyterian, some Pentecostal works, Independent Charismatic works (Dutch Sheets et al). It should be much more varied denominationally than the Pentecostal Package is. Charismatic refers to non-Pentecostals from various denominations or independent movements who do not belong in the Pentecostal category. C Peter Wagner, Dutch Sheets, Cindy Jacobs, and many of the earlier such as J Rodman Williams.

In general, in my opinion, traditional Pentecostals would object to too much Independent Charismatic material in their base package. I believe that Faithlife needs to do more research on this. If their researcher is Charismatic, they may not fully understand the difference. The reason is not that Charismatics are ignorant, God forbid, that's not what I am saying. But Charismatics are far more open and accepting of novel ideas (e.g. Open Theism [C Peter Wagner, Harold Eberle], Calvinism [Sam Storms, Wayne Grudem]) than traditional Pentecostals.

Kendall Sholtess said:

Unity doesn't mean having the same opinion about things.

My favourite book on this subject is by Joel Edwards...

Unfortunately unity is too often confused with uniformity.

Kendall Sholtess said:

That looks like a good book, Graham. Sadly, it doesn't look like it's sold.

It's been out of print for a while, it does turn up from time to time when bookshops do a stock check. I managed to replace the copy that I loaned to someone who later claimed it was theirs and was not sure how my name got written inside in my handwriting!

Kendall Sholtess said:

I have 4,800 electronic books of many denominations

My library also covers many denominations, I even have and read John MacArthur who would definitely be off limits for many of my pentecostal colleagues. For me the combining of Pentecostal and Charismatic into a single collections does two things:

1. it masks the limited availability of classical pentecostal works in Logos something that I don't think is Logos' fault but ironically is unlikely to change while the two are included in a single collection as this grouping will influence the way that pentecostal publishers perceive Logos
2. it shows a lack of understanding of some very clear differences in beliefs, practices and origins, it is true that the pentecostal attraction to celebrity has led many to embrace some of the Charismatic teachers and it is definitely ironic that in a period when we encourage our own to publish more substantive academic and theologically grounded books many are indeed drawn to the less substantial Charismatic authors

From a personal perspective, I'm happy that Logos now has enough good quality Pentecostal resources to enable me not to buy real books, I do wish there was more, Stephen Jack Land for example, but on a day to day basis thinks are so much better than say 10 years ago.

Agree on the dogmatism btw, for me dogmatists insist on sitting on opposite sides of the table and in my experience the best conversations occur when we sit on the same side of the table, no matter how hard that might seem at the beginning.

Friedrich said:

Be careful about assumptions that other base packages really reflect denominational unity. 

I am very aware that there is diversity within other denominations and that packages are really more of a commercial construct to bring enough resources together to drive down the unit price.

Friedrich said:

I think it was Graham Owen who said many Pentecostals do not get into Logos and stick with their Pentecostal publishing arms

It was me and some years ago I remember that Logos were contacting the major publishing houses to negotiate access to content. Based on what is available in Logos today it is safe to assume that this was not a success. In my experience, many Pentecostals are conservative (small c) and like to stay with the safe option which would be in house.

Friedrich said:

And, frankly, I don't care for some chunks of our published stuff and would not buy it if it WAS in Logos...unless part of the fluff that makes up packages.

That would be true for Pentecostal publications as well (for me at least).

Friedrich said:

I am curios: how might a typical, non-Logos using pastor rank the following reasons for not owning Logos:

My guess would be  - not enough Pentecostal - budget - original language - aversion to Charismatic

Note that budget is an interesting one as whilst Logos talk a lot about this in my experience few ministers of any denomination make investing in study materials a priority. Many that I know depend on the materials they used in training and invest very little. Some probably spend more on praise and worship CDs than they do on books. 

Friedrich said:

Yeah, in my neck of the woods there is that tension between scholarly and practical. 

Too often I see that tension manifest as scholarly versus spiritual as if education somehow presents someone from having spiritual insight.