I am just not getting it

I understand how the nominative works (The case that normally refers to the subject of a verb or a noun following a form of the verb)

What I am not getting is how will this help me in interrupting a particular scripture. Such as and this is Johnny’s example

John 3 16 and 17“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that [whoever adjective, nominative] believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 “For [God article, nominative] did not send the Son into [the article, nominative world noun nominative] to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Will someone tell me what I am looking at here in these 2 Scriptures and how this help me to understand or interpret these Scriptures

To me all Johnny is doing is explaining how to find these things and what they mean in relation to each other not how to take this information and apply it to Scripture to have a better understanding of that Scripture. If i am wrong I am sure not catching it

Thanks

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Don

In English, word order is important to help us understand case and therefore meaning. The basic construction is subject, verb, object. In Greek, word order does not play this important role. Therefore knowing the case helps us understand which noun is the subject, or object, etc.

Notice the word order in this selection from a Greek interlinear. IF we did not know that God was the nominative (subject) and world was the accusative (object), we might think that it was the world loving God rather than God loving the world.

Eddie Arrington

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/143727#Comment_143727

Teaching at its best! Thanks, Don.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/143727#Comment_143727

In English, word order is important to help us understand case and therefore meaning. The basic construction is subject, verb, object. In Greek, word order does not play this important role. Therefore knowing the case helps us understand which noun is the subject, or object, etc.

Notice the word order in this selection from a Greek interlinear. IF we did not know that God was the nominative (subject) and world was the accusative (object), we might think that it was the world loving God rather than God loving the world.

True, but if we have the English translation (presumably done by experts who know this stuff about nominative and accusative), perhaps Sam was asking "what good does it do me, a Logos user, to know this stuff? How does this help me get more out of my Bible study in Logos than I could have by just reading the English Bible and the commentaries?" I'm just learning the beginnings of Greek myself, so I don't have a good answer for Sam, though I know I do want to learn some Greek just for its own benefit. Some of the more advanced commentaries will mention grammatical terminology and have Greek words sprinkled about, and it's nice to be able to know what they're talking about.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144008#Comment_144008

Rosie,

Keep in mind that I'm also a Greek newbie...so take this with a grain of salt...

Probably the John 3:16 / nominative wasn't the best example in which to flex the ol' Greek muscles...but there are times when there are some wild differences in translation and this stuff comes in handy...

I love it, myself....I just wish I could retain it better.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144008#Comment_144008

Romans 1:3 the case preposition shows you that "concerning his Son" can refer either to v.1 "the Gospel" or to v.2 "the holy Scripture". If the latter you might go looking for Old Testament passages that might be referenced. You can't understand the issue if you don't understand how cases work - and how they can create ambiguity. If you don't understand the problem, you'll easily believe anything you are taught.

My apologies I grabbed the wrong example.

Bob Turner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144023#Comment_144023

MJ - u lost me on that one.

Bob Turner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144028#Comment_144028

oh wait. i think i get it.

because "gospel" in v.1 is accusative, it is the object of the preposition "concerning" in v.3.

is that correct?

Sam West

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144015#Comment_144015

Keep in mind that I'm also a Greek newbie

Robert I am a newbe myself for sure and you are someone I can relate to. May I ask what is your game plan in learning this. Should I start out by learning all the cases? I love it too even though i am doing a lot of grumbling it is a challenge to me and I love challenges but I need something solid i sink my teeth into to get started. You might say something I can comprehend to get me started.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144031#Comment_144031

Sorry about grabbing a preposition rather than case example - a good way to add to the confusion [:$]

Okay here is a real case example. The adjective "called" is immediately follows Jesus Christ but that is not what it modified. We know that it modifies Paul a slave because the case is nominative just as Paul is nominative. If it were to modify Jesus, it would have to be genitive just like Jesus. Red is NO; black is YES.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144008#Comment_144008

True, but if we have the English translation (presumably done by experts who know this stuff about nominative and accusative), perhaps Sam was asking "what good does it do me, a Logos user, to know this stuff? How does this help me get more out of my Bible study in Logos than I could have by just reading the English Bible and the commentaries?"

If you can rely on the English text, then you don't need to learn any
Greek at all! The purpose of the videos is to slowly wean us off the English texts. By the end of the videos, I'd expect users to be able to translate* the Greek New Testament using just Logos and hovering over each word. Unlike 'true' Greek students, we won't be able to parse verbs (because we won't have learned the paradigms), and we won't have very much vocabulary at all. But Logos provides glosses (tiny definitions) and parsing information on hover. If we're to do this, we'll need to know what Logos means when it tells us ἠγάπησεν is an aorist, active, indicative third person singular verb meaning 'to love'.

Teaching us that, is a major point of these videos, so I'd pay particular attention to things like case, form, mood, etc. I'd also keep a copy of the Pocket Dictionary for the Study of New Testament Greek to hand. [:)]

* Before anyone points it out, I'm quite aware that languages are complex beasts. Even if (e.g.) you know that a noun is dative, you won't necessarily know whether it's a dative of advantage, of agency, of association, of cause, of possession or of place. But that's not the point. The videos are designed to significantly improve our ability, not to turn all of us into world-beaters.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144035#Comment_144035

Sam,

I don't have a game plan sorry to say. I've just started looking through the vids.

I'd be open to being a "study partner" if you want...bounce ideas of each other...ask each other questions etc...

All I've done so far is to watch a vid, go to the passages that are being referenced and go through them to inspect the grammar.

I've been TRYING to teach myself Greek for a few years now....it's slow going for sure...a partner is always nice.

if you have some questions or you want to partner up for support or whatever....email me:

rpavich at gmail dot com

Sam West

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144042#Comment_144042

If you can rely on the English text, then you don't need to learn any Greek at all! The purpose of the videos is to slowly wean us off the English texts. By the end of the videos

Wean us off the English text:: Mark this is what turns me on.

When I stop and think about it I think Dr Heiser and Johnny said mastering this would be equivalent to a 3 year Seminary education. i have had my videos about 2 weeks. would you call that no patience?

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144053#Comment_144053

i have had my videos about 2 weeks. would you call that no patience?

No..I'd call that 2 semesters! [:O]

Sam West

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144043#Comment_144043

I'd be open to being a "study partner" if you want...bounce ideas of each other...ask each other questions etc...

Robert I would love that but i assure you, you will come out on the short end of the stick. I very thick headed

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144053#Comment_144053

When I stop and think about it I think Dr Heiser and Johnny said mastering this would be equivalent to a 3 year Seminary education. i have had my videos about 2 weeks. would you call that no patience?

Yup [:D]

If you're going to get the most out of the videos, you're going to need to go through them fairly slowly. A lot of people are rushing through them once, then going back and working their way through them more carefully. That seems wise to me. It's a shame that exercises aren't included in the videos. But at the end of a video, I'd spend some time (I'm talking hours not minutes) working through some examples of my own, to help everything sink in. Don't view this as a waste of time - not only will you be remembering what you've learned, but you'll actually be handling the Bible text. Give yourself a passage that you're going to be teaching on soon, or one that has struck you recently, and apply that chapters lessons to that text. Any time you're not clear about something, replay the video.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144168#Comment_144168

If you're going to get the most out of the videos, you're going to need to go through them fairly slowly. A lot of people are rushing through them once, then going back and working their way through them more carefully. That seems wise to me. It's a shame that exercises aren't included in the videos. But at the end of a video, I'd spend some time (I'm talking hours not minutes) working through some examples of my own, to help everything sink in. Don't view this as a waste of time - not only will you be remembering what you've learned, but you'll actually be handling the Bible text. Give yourself a passage that you're going to be teaching on soon, or one that has struck you recently, and apply that chapters lessons to that text. Any time you're not clear about something, replay the video.

Fully agree, I'd also recommend...(this is slightly weird) to say things out loud to yourself, repeat them back, reinforce them...

When he mentions a particular instance of certain grammatical form....go looking for others....etc.

It's a long road ESPECIALLY doing it on your own....but it's amazingly rewarding no matter what level you are at...as Mounce says: "At our stage we aren't likely to be able to challenge Daniel Wallace...but we CAN understand technical commentaries enough to follow the arguments and make better decisions"

Jack Caviness

17 “For [God article, nominative] did not send the Son into [the article, nominative world noun nominative] to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Just to keep things straight. The and world in the above example are not Nominative. They are in the Accusative Case as objects of the preposition into.

Sam West

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144180#Comment_144180

Just to keep things straight. The and world in the above example are not Nominative. They are in the Accusative Case as objects of the preposition into.

Jack you are sure right and I am very sorry. I guess I got in too big a hurry with my examples and made a mistake. its all Greek to me anyway. may never learn it but having a good time trying. You full blood seminary people are probably laughing up your sleeves at us newbie’s. Anyway we were lead to believe anyone could learn this not knowing any Greek or Hebrew at all.

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144348#Comment_144348

You full blood seminary people are probably laughing up your sleeves at us newbie’s.

If they are, then they have a really short memory. I got straight "B"s on my greek courses, with 2 hours of study a night. To tell you what that means you have to understand, to get an "A" in most other subjects wouldn't require me to study 2 hours a week. I loved my Greek classes, wish I had time to go further, but I sweated blood. These videos will not get you to the same place, but close enough for many. Frankly I wouldn't be surprised that the videos will encourage some to go on and take traditional language courses.

So laughing at other people's language mistakes isn't high on my list of things to do.

Sam West

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144355#Comment_144355

You full blood seminary people are probably laughing up your sleeves at us newbie’s.

If they are, then they have a really short memory. I got straight "B"s on my greek courses, with 2 hours of study a night. To tell you what that means you have to understand, to get an "A" in most other subjects wouldn't require me to study 2 hours a week. I loved my Greek classes, wish I had time to go further, but I sweated blood. These videos will not get you to the same place, but close enough for many. Frankly I wouldn't be surprised that the videos will encourage some to go on and take traditional language courses.

So laughing at other people's language mistakes isn't high on my list of things to do.

Terry I think I could make it if Dr Heiser and Johnny had given me a more down to earth examples. I can follow Dr Heiser better than Johnny and Hebrew is what I am concentrating on right now. The quality of Johnny’s videos are not much at least on my computer. I will have the volume set right and then have to turn it all up in order to hear it. when he starts explaining part of his presentation and then it will come back and almost shatter my ear drums be fore I can get it turned back down.

Folks don’t get me wrong. I love this challenge and certainly not sorry I ordered them. Now if I had paid $500 it might be a different story. I am retired, have all kinds of extra time and I can say I dearly love L4 and trying to comprehend these videos. I spend hours every day in my easy chair with my laptop working with these 2 programs.

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144355#Comment_144355

erry I think I could make it if Dr Heiser and Johnny had given me a more down to earth examples.

Sam, you have made a wise choice by coming here and posting in on the forums, there are several people here with a firm grasp of the languages. Just start working through the videos, post questions here, ask for clarification here, participate in the thread and you will get plenty of down to earth examples.

he quality of Johnny’s videos are not much at least on my computer.

I agree, and it is unfortunate. But as often as I offer criticism of Logos, they are an honorable company and they will make good on your purchase.I am working through Hebrew as well, but I did preview the Greek when I first got the set, and the content is of the same quality, even if the production values leave room for improvement.

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144355#Comment_144355

erry I think I could make it if Dr Heiser and Johnny had given me a more down to earth examples.

he quality of Johnny’s videos are not much at least on my computer.

davidphillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144404#Comment_144404

Sam,

One of the challenges is that there isn't going to necessarily be amazing examples of how what you're learning at the moment impacts your interpretation of the Bible. The whole is definately greater than the sum of its parts! Keep going. As the pieces fit together, you'll see more and more how learning Greek and Hebrew can be wonderful tools. They will help you ask more questions of the text and allow you to wrestle with it more than before.

But, what about the nominative? Take a look at Luke 2:14, both in the ESV and in the KJV with the interlinears on. You'll notice that in the ESV the word ευδοκια is in the genitive case (ευδοκιας), while in the KJV it is in the nominative (ευδοκια). This is a textual criticism issue, but it also shows how the case of a word can make a big difference in interpreting the verse! Is there peace to men of God's good pleasure (with whom God is pleased), or simply "good will toward men"? The difference between the nominative and the genitive is a big one! Keep up the hard work and look for long term benefits!

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144042#Comment_144042

By the end of the videos, I'd expect users to be able to translate* the Greek New Testament using just Logos and hovering over each word.

Not having the videos, I obviously don't know what I'm talking about. [:D] But because I've seen so many abuse a little knowledge of Biblical languages, I'd prefer that people set their sights on being able to follow a discussion based on the original languages. That everyone should be able to achieve and it works wonders for their use of commentaries as well as Logos tools. Some people who are either adapt at learning languages or who are willing to put a lot of effort into it, will be able to "translate" the language.

My logic in taking this position is that if people set their personal expectations too high, they may give up. If their expectations imply that whatever they learn will be useful, they'll be more willing to persist and perhaps repeat the videos gaining a bit more each time through.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144056#Comment_144056

I very thick headed

I take this to mean either you are not very adept at learning languages or that you are insecure in your ability to learn languages. I'm absolutely impossible when it comes to spoken languages - the 2nd student in 35 years of teaching that a French prof gave up on.[:$] Luckily, I'm good at grammar and syntax so dead languages are my forte - the deader the better. If it's living I treat it as dead.

However, each small bit you do pick up will help you understand commentaries and notes. You don't need to pick it all up the first time through. People learn in different ways - sometimes you need to be "further along" when something taught earlier finally makes sense. Sometimes you need to see example after example before you say "oh, I understand". Don't expect more of yourself than your style of learning permits and value what you do get.

Footnote: I was one of the few students who passed all parts of the language proficiency exam on my first try, which cause the professor to tell me she couldn't figure out how I had managed to do it. The secret: when I didn't understand the whole sentence, I took the parts I did know and made my best guess. The more talented students only answered when they knew the answer. Moral: the bits you do understand are helpful.

Sam West

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144413#Comment_144413

Sam,

One of the challenges is that there isn't going to necessarily be amazing examples of how what you're learning at the moment impacts your interpretation of the Bible. The whole is definately greater than the sum of its parts! Keep going. As the pieces fit together, you'll see more and more how learning Greek and Hebrew can be wonderful tools. They will help you ask more questions of the text and allow you to wrestle with it more than before.

But, what about the nominative? Take a look at Luke 2:14, both in the ESV and in the KJV with the interlinears on. You'll notice that in the ESV the word ευδοκια is in the genitive case (ευδοκιας), while in the KJV it is in the nominative (ευδοκια). This is a textual criticism issue, but it also shows how the case of a word can make a big difference in interpreting the verse! Is there peace to men of God's good pleasure (with whom God is pleased), or simply "good will toward men"? The difference between the nominative and the genitive is a big one! Keep up the hard work and look for long term benefits!

David thanks for the encouragement and all the time you put in to help me with your presentation. Your 2 examples [Luke 2:14 in the 2 versions] hey this is exciting to me. You see David I have never seen anything like this before and to find things like this and understand them would be heavenly. David I study religiously and have for years but I would like to go deeper. I have a pretty good understanding of the bible with all the different versions and commentaries and of course L4 I now have.

Sam West

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144416#Comment_144416

Sometimes you need to see example after example before you say "oh, I understand".

Thanks MJ. Call it thick headed, slow learner or what ever. Unlike a lot of people it takes a while for me to grasp things like this but when I do buddy I have it and I can go from there and not look back. What I mean I am trying to get this all down in my head. Not to learn it overnight but the mechanics of it. How to put it all together.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144355#Comment_144355

Frankly I wouldn't be surprised that the videos will encourage some to go on and take traditional language courses.

They certainly have. Watching these has only heightened my desire to learn Koine Greek and Hebrew!

That's my goal after retirement (if it ever gets here) to attend some sort of language learning institution.

Scott S

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144416#Comment_144416

dead languages are my forte - the deader the better.

I'm curious -- I read a similar statement in another venue when I was studying languages with Susan Jeffers last year. Do you know Susan also?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144433#Comment_144433

Susan Jeffers last year. Do you know Susan also?

Yes. I was in her online class last summer. I ended up testing Trible's book on Jonah as a "reading text" for her. I found it quite an effective way into Hebrew but I still have a number of elements of Hebrew that baffle me - Semitic languages simply work differently from other languages I know and there is some fundamental element that keeps escaping me.

Scott S

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144447#Comment_144447

Yes. I was in her online class last summer.

Martha,

I remember your posts in that class. They were very encouraging, as they are here on the Logos forum. I recall you recommending Susan Jeffers as a very good language teacher and you were absolutely right! I hope to continue studying with her, if that is possible.

This is so funny [:)], because I have read so many of your messages here, and I guess on the newsgroup too -- and was oblivious to the connection until tonight.

Regards,
Scott

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144348#Comment_144348

You full blood seminary people are probably laughing up your sleeves at us newbie’s.

I sure hope not. I would rather provide whatever assistance I could.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144432#Comment_144432

hat's my goal after retirement

Retirement—What's that? I've tried that 4 times (from the USN, the Pastorate twice, and a family business), and I still have an occupation. [8-|]

David A Egolf

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144416#Comment_144416

I very thick headed

I take this to mean either you are not very adept at learning languages or that you are insecure in your ability to learn languages. I'm absolutely impossible when it comes to spoken languages - the 2nd student in 35 years of teaching that a French prof gave up on. Luckily, I'm good at grammar and syntax so dead languages are my forte - the deader the better. If it's living I treat it as dead.

However, each small bit you do pick up will help you understand commentaries and notes. You don't need to pick it all up the first time through. People learn in different ways - sometimes you need to be "further along" when something taught earlier finally makes sense. Sometimes you need to see example after example before you say "oh, I understand". Don't expect more of yourself than your style of learning permits and value what you do get.

Footnote: I was one of the few students who passed all parts of the language proficiency exam on my first try, which cause the professor to tell me she couldn't figure out how I had managed to do it. The secret: when I didn't understand the whole sentence, I took the parts I did know and made my best guess. The more talented students only answered when they knew the answer. Moral: the bits you do understand are helpful.

I bring you a quotation straight out of one of the resources recently added by Logos: "131 Christians Everyone Should Know". G.K.Chesterton provided a relevant quotation: “Anything worth doing is worth doing badly.”

I refer to this as the antidote for perfectionism. One must subscribe to it fully order to learn a language. If you wait until you do it well, you will not get out of the gate!

Justin Cofer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144348#Comment_144348

No ... no ... no. Absolutely not. We're not laughing at you. The smartest people in the world ask for help instead of giving up on learning.

Studying original languages is ... not easy. I studied Greek under Wesley Perschbacher when I got my undergrad degree at Moody Bible Institute. Those were the toughest "A's" I ever got in my life. It's so easy to just give up, but you shouldn't. Keep persevering.

Anyhow, Dr. Perschbacher wrote a book filled with just examples of Greek grammar. Over 3,000 illustrations.

After you finish the videos, I suggest you pick up his book in Logos format. The link is right here.

http://www.logos.com/products/details/4604

Andy Keen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144042#Comment_144042

If you can rely on the English text, then you don't need to learn any
Greek at all! The purpose of the videos is to slowly wean us off the English texts.

My 2 years of Greek in college were about 30 years ago, so I am brushing the rust off my few remaining neurons and getting reacquainted with the language. The beauty of the Logos software is that it allows you to instantly access resources that open the original languages to you, EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE STUDYING PRIMARILY IN ENGLISH. I think it is important to listen to Dr Heiser's advice as to the importance of looking at the text itself, without referring first to the commentaries or lexicons. There is no substitute for prayerfully studying a text and giving the Holy Spirit the opportunity to reveal the depths of the passage's meaning to you. If you can read English very rapidly, it is easy to skim over a passage rather than reading deeply. This is one of the most important lessons that I learned about myself when I began studying Greek, and that I needed to slow down, and see what I was missing. Having to work through a passage in Greek forced me to do that.

I find that using the Bible Word Study tool (right-click on an english word in the NT, select lemma, then Bible Word Study, and then select the Septuagint translation) will allow the user to get a feel for the background of a greek word in the NT by looking at all of the OT usages of the word by reading the passages IN ENGLISH with the word highlighted! You will find some very interesting uses of the words, and then use your bible comparison tool to compare translations to see how various translators interpreted the word in question. Doing this alone will cause you to thank God that the Logos software allows you to have access to that information.

So, I would suggest following a course like this: 1) do your word studies. 2) Use your bible comparison tool to look at how translators have interpreted the word in various OT and NT contexts. (this will give you LOTS of food for thought!) 3) Continue to apply your growing knowledge of Greek. 4) THINK and PRAY about what you are seeing, and God will help you understand things that you wouldn't even be aware of if you hadn't tried to use the original languages.

Don

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/147233#Comment_147233

cardio, you might want to change from your email to a user name so spambots don't harvest your address from the forum.

William

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/147233#Comment_147233

You can find out how to change the name here.....http://wiki.logos.com/Changing_Forum_Display_Name

Mark Bjornholm

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/144355#Comment_144355

The vids are well done. I had one year of traditional classroom Greek and have two years to go. Kudos to Logos for making original langauages accessible using the Logos software. However, I am not sure they're designed to take you further than that (i.e. off the software's very useful and quick help). Looking forward to using the vids to brush up and learn some new things using Logos.