Logos need to do something about Logos
Logos 8 is running on an iMac that is no slacker. While it is a 2013 model it has 24GB of memory, plenty HD space, and a decent processor.
I am no pastor and I make my living as a filmmaker and photographer. What I cannot understand if my iMac is enough to run very demanding programs like Photoshop, Capture One, Motion, and Final Cut Pro X why Logos 8 runs painfully slow. As far as I can remember, my experience will Logos has always been terrible.
It should not have to be that every time Logos comes out with a new version we seem to have to buy the latest most powerful computer just to have Logs run decently. It is frustrating that after spending 1,000s on resources on Logos I can not enjoy them because it is insanely inefficient and SLOW. I always ending shutting down the program and run Accordance to be able to get done what I am trying to do. If I would have known this I would have spent my money on Accordance resources and not Logos.
And today was the last drop. I was trying to see what Hebrew word was used in Micah 6:8 for "justice" and nowhere I could find the word "Mishpat" was the one used. I just wanted something so basic and simple but there was not away.
Sorry Logos, you exhausted my patience. And that is too bad because Logos is a good concept with many great features. But if you cannot use them because the app is too slow then what is the use.
Stop trying to be clever and just take all that useless glitter and give us an app that runs efficiently and fast on any computer. I think I may have just upgraded for the last time.
And do not get me started in the mobile app. Please, stop trying to show off cleverness and do the app right.
Comments
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David Medina said:
Stop trying to be clever and just take all that useless glitter
We each have our own definition of "useless glitter" -- what do you see as "useless glitter"?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Whatever thing that is not necessary and slows down the program. That is what I consider glitter. There must be way to cut dwn the fat and make Logos more efficient and fast insted of depending that their users have the lastest and greatest technology.
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Sorry for the frustration, David!
David Medina said:I was trying to see what Hebrew word was used in Micah 6:8 for "justice" and nowhere I could find the word "Mishpat" was the one used. I just wanted something so basic and simple but there was not away.
Here are three different approaches to quickly see what Hebrew word was used for justice:
1. Use the right-click context menu. Right click on the word "justice," then you can see the manuscript, lemma, and root form of the Hebrew word that was used.
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2. (Open and) use the Information tool. Hover (or click depending on your Information tool settings) to see information about the word you selected.
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3. (Open and) use the bible's reverse interlinear pane. Click on the word justice to see the corresponding word in the reverse interlinear.
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(Make sure the bible translation you are using has a reverse interlinear, or it won't be this easy to see what Hebrew word is used.)
Each of these approaches should be very quick (instant). If you're seeing much slower behavior, please enable and post logs (using the paperclip icon to attach them) to your reply, and someone should be able to help identify what might be slowing down the program.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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I've watched Logos over the years (as everyone else). The primary discussion is 'how slow' (I don't recall any varients of 'how fast)'. Most solutions are either hardware (SSD), or stop using a glitz (feature), or at least watching out for the truly bad ones (collections).
I remember in early Molassas4, users pointed out pointless cycles ... which were refined over time. Then refining the indexer. Then the app-opening. But I wonder 'exactly' why snappy seems a few hundred miles on the other side of the state (Spokane). Is it basically the paint-base?
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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David Medina said:
Whatever thing that is not necessary and slows down the program. That is what I consider glitter.
The problem is that what is not necessary depends upon what work you do ... While there are features I will never use, I don't see features that are not useful for some portion of the market. I see features that are underutilized because they are incomplete or buggy. You really need to be concerned only with features that conceivably interfere with the performance of features you do use. In my own use, the slowdowns are all related to the building of the drop-down select list. And while I absolutely hate waiting what is at times literally MINUTES to build the list, I understand I put up with it because of choices made to shorten the start up time and minimize the memory requirements for features not used.
That is why I am genuinely interested in the specifics of what you think is "not necessary", "fat", "glitter" . . .
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Denise said:
I remember in early Molassas4, users pointed out pointless cycles ... which were refined over time. Then refining the indexer. Then the app-opening. But I wonder 'exactly' why snappy seems a few hundred miles on the other side of the state (Spokane). Is it basically the paint-base?
Denise, you have enough computer-savvy that I don't believe that you don't know what the Eastern Washington product is snappier than the Western Washington product. It has to do with the air flow ... the mountains screen everything valuable out of the air before it reaches Spokane so they build a straight forward, feature weak, performance strong product. ... well that's what it appears from research -- I don't use their product.
I suspect that the Logos resource drain comes from balancing the performance for
- users with very large libraries wishing to use numerous collections and/or filters and/or complex priority settings... any of collections, filters and prioritization can cause performance issues. Some competitors do not offer enough resources for this to become a problem. I've found work-arounds but would like FL to build in certain features that would limit my need for much of the prioritization and collections.
- a number of features depend upon going through a reverse interlinear to generate a response. Without knowing the data storage and code in detail, one can still make a decent estimate of the number of cycles required to take an indirect route. However, one can also see how this, in some implementation, is the only way to provide many of the features accessible through this tagging choice.
- in the same way that FL has a backlog of bug reports to clean up, I suspect that they also have a backlog of fine tuning of performance issues to get to -- features not polish appears to be their interest. Someone has suggested that my Stone-Campbell background is responsible for my obsession with gnawing at a problem until every portion is thoroughly vetted as accurate - logically and textually. I prefer to blame the Medieval disputatio model of education.
I suspect that the most effective path forward is one issue at a time ... pick a feature, a single feature, and mobilize the users to concentrate their error reporting, suggestions, and uservoice votes on that feature. When FL addresses it pick another feature ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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David Medina said:
Logos 8 is running on an iMac that is no slacker. While it is a 2013 model it has 24GB of memory, plenty HD space, and a decent processor.
I have a 2013 Mac with 16GB of memory and don't have the problems that you are having. It actually runs quickly for me. Doing a original language lookup takes about a second for me. That is with 15 tabs open in Logos and 11 other programs running and Chrome with 6 tabs open. I do have 1TB SSD - I wonder if that is the difference?
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MJ. Smith said:
It has to do with the air flow ... the mountains screen everything valuable out of the air before it reaches Spokane so they build a straight forward, feature weak, performance strong product. ... well that's what it appears from research -- I don't use their product.
Well, having spent gobs of time at Moses Lake (and slamming on the brakes at Yakima for flag-lowering), I completely missed the air-less air. But you're right ... the big Z keeps them on the straight and narrow. No fancy-dancy.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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David Medina said:
What I cannot understand if my iMac is enough to run very demanding programs like Photoshop, Capture One, Motion, and Final Cut Pro X why Logos 8 runs painfully slow.
Various programs have different performance bottlenecks. Logos is a database application with tremendous demand for storage speed (hundreds of files open with many simultaneous read & writes). Solid State Disk (SSD) is much faster than Hard Disk (and highly recommended for Logos).
When using Logos online, network response time can affect Logos. Online includes syncing location change in resource so opening that resource on your mobile device goes to the same place. Sluggish network responsiveness slows down Logos (competing with video upload/download is a way to slow down Logos). If not need online stuff/sync, changing Program Setting for Use Internet to No results in application responding faster.
Thankful Logos & Verbum can be used at the same time. My demonstration account has an order total of $ 0.00 that includes Logos 8 Basic, Verbum 8 Basic, Logos 8 Academic Basic, Teach Them Diligently Library (free for one weekend last year), and Logos 7 Fundamentals gift from Logos 8 upgrade with subsequent coupon for Logos 8 Fundamentals. Thankful for demonstration account having usable Visual Filter subset ("less glitter") for speedier Bible Study (demonstration library uses 16 GB on macOS 10.15.5 compared to 135 GB for purchased library with every feature enabled). For more in-depth Bible Study (including commentary insights), purchased library is awesome (albeit speed challenged in spots).
David Medina said:And today was the last drop. I was trying to see what Hebrew word was used in Micah 6:8 for "justice" and nowhere I could find the word "Mishpat" was the one used. I just wanted something so basic and simple but there was not away.
Using my demonstration library, opened Lexham English Bible (LEB) to Micah 6:8. Right Clicked on Justice, clicked lemma (ring icon), clicked LXHOTLEX to open "The Lexham Lexicon of the Hebrew Bible" in a new tab. Right clicked on Justice, hovered mouse over CDWBTHB (A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and Hebrew Bible) for pop-up to appear for mishpâṭ
David Medina said:And do not get me started in the mobile app. Please, stop trying to show off cleverness and do the app right.
Please help the development team understand what feels like "cleverness" and what a mobile app done right should be by posting your feedback in Logos 8 Mobile App forum (human developers are not mind readers so describing what hurts with repeatable steps is helpful).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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My first thought was the information panel. Unfortunately I got tired of waiting for tho display anything.
I am not a Logo Power user. I am not a pastor nor a seminary student. I just want to use Logos to Study the Bible and do very basic searches for which I mostly use the Passage Guide.
I am not either a greek or hewrew student. I just do basic word studies for which I find the Word Study Guide pretty much useless. But that is probably me. Ys, I have taken seminars and they just tell ou what the feature is used for and that it is.
I think Logos is a very bloated app beyond and I do not have a large library way below platinum.
Questions.
If I do any of the following will it have any effect? Eliminating useless resources? Elimination collections?
Of course, I know that an SSD will help but that is pricesely my point. I should not have to depend from an SSD to have an app work decently. If that is a requirenment it should be plaster all over te website so we do not waste money buying an app that does not work properly in a normal compuer.
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Various programs have different performance bottlenecks. Logos is a database application with tremendous demand for storage speed (hundreds of files open with many simultaneous read & writes). Solid State Disk (SSD) is much faster than Hard Disk (and highly recommended for Logos).
I don't have an SSD. I don't mind that searches take time, and even indexing isn't that much of a bother any more. I have a slower (but not terribly so) computer, and I know its limitations.
What falls out of the conversation every time this is brought up: Logos is slow at EVERYTHING, even at tasks that should not be so demanding. Populating drop down lists from Tools takes FOREVER. Switching layouts almost always makes Windows hang for a bit--even if it's a small layout! These tasks don't (or, shouldn't) require "hundreds of files open with many simultaneous read & writes." Switching to the home page (the use of which I've totally abandoned with L8) shouldn't take a solid 30+ seconds.
I run lots of other programs on my computer. Many are demanding. None perform as badly as Logos. Some of these issues should be fixable for people who have machines that aren't cutting edge. I have yet to see FaithLife take much efforts in that direction. I don't know how motivated they are, either, when so many people are eager to meet complaints such as this with the chorus: "Just get an SSD!"
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For starters I would say Logos is sold with many books that most of us would not purchase in paper, never heard of or have little use for study. Iam pretty sure that the size of the library has to have an effect on the speed.
Anther one I can think is the Psalm thing.
I am no power user nor a pastor or seminary student. My use of Logos is to do Bible study and basic research of topics. I do not even use collections. My searches are very basic.
The problem I see is that Logos been slow is nothing new. Not even in 2013 when my computer was brand new or when I used a Mac Pro Logos fared any better. So when I speak of glitter I probably mean all that surface prettiness that they keep adding to Logos that makes you wonder if they care more about how Logos looks and how technologically advanced looks instead of making a priority that the App is a fast as it can possibly be.
Now I wonder if I delete all the excess books that came with the app if that would significally help Logos. Do you have any idea if that would help?
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Yes, using an SSD should help. But installing an SSD on my iMac is not an option at the moment. My point is that it should not depend from having an SSD for Logos to work properly.
I do have an Mac Book Pro 2015 with an SSD, but unfortunatelly Logo is also a drive space and it limited my use of my MacBook pro just for Logos. Still, the performance wasn't stellar.
I just wonder if I trim the fat of so many useless books (to me at least) that come with Logos if it would make any difference.
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Thanks Sean, you get what I am saying.
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David Medina said:
My first thought was the information panel. Unfortunately I got tired of waiting for tho display anything.
I have Logos on an internal HD because my library is too big for the internal SSD, however I don’t have to wait for the Information panel. (The only thing that is really slow for me is how long it takes a drop down to populate.)
Again, I don’t think it’s typical to wait, but without any logs, no one can tell you exactly what is slowing it down for you.
If you seriously want to try to resolve this, please don’t try random things like deleting “useless” resources.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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David Medina said:
My first thought was the information panel. Unfortunately I got tired of waiting for tho display anything.
I spent a decade before I started using the information panel - primarily to see the tagging. I am curious as to why it was so slow loading for you but I don't know enough about the parts I don't use to know how to track that down.
David Medina said:I just want to use Logos to Study the Bible and do very basic searches for which I mostly use the Passage Guide.
I suspect there are a large number of users like you in this. I tend to use the Passage Guide a section at a time so other than knowing to open it with most sections closed, I can't be much help. But I suspect that FL could do some work to make sections load more efficiently.
David Medina said:I am not either a greek or hewrew student. I just do basic word studies for which I find the Word Study Guide pretty much useless.
I flippingly call the heavy language support as "keeping the user busy doing things they don't understand so they don't accidentally find something that makes them think". But I understand this is critical to a large portion of the user base and is the foundation of many of the English features I enjoy.
David Medina said:Yes, I have taken seminars and they just tell you what the feature is used for and that it is.
I agree with you although I word it somewhat differently - they fail to teach you the foundation you need to actually use the feature or make the feature difficult to use. My personal target is semantic roles which I would use very heavily IF (a) the various places that show the roles would point you to the verb they are dependent on and (b) if the clause search analysis view worked correctly rather than being on their "known bug" list.
David Medina said:If I do any of the following will it have any effect? Eliminating useless resources?
I've found the new feature of leaving them in the cloud is well worth the effort of using ... I don't know how it affects performance but it certainly helps me focus on results that are relevant.
David Medina said:If I do any of the following will it have any effect? ... Elimination collections?
I found that for many collections, switching to tagging and the use of dynamic collections does improve performance. But I still have a number of working collections that are really best handled by collections.
Thank you for detailing your thoughts. And I think that there are many users who agree with you. However, I have a very different perspective on the solution. I don't think Logos is bloated with useless features. I think Logos fails to provide a "Logos Light" version for the users like yourself ... think of "Light" vs. "Professional" in this context. I think that the FL management is aware of this issue but I have no insight into how they are approaching resolving it.
If I were you, I would start by actually timing how long it takes to populate the Information Panel for example - post it on the forums and ask others how it compares for them. If yours is taking longer than average, it would be worth trying to track down why.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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David Medina said:
Anther one I can think is the Psalm thing.
This is actually one of my favorite features ... I suspect you don't belong to a tradition that sings only psalms or prays several psalms daily.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Hi David,
Just in case something in it helps, here's a link to a guide for making Logos/Verbum run faster on laptops and desktops: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/187051.aspx.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Thanks. I'll take a look at it and see what I can implement.
But I did notice that the first suggestion is to replace the drive with am SSD. While I do understand that SSD is best no matter and I would love to be able, but for them to suggest that it is like Logos passing the bucket. They want me to spend more money to "help" their inefficient and slow app run as it should anyway. To purchase and install an SSD on my iMac would cost me close to $700. Not an acceptable solution at this time.
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We do, I may be wrong, (probably I am) but I fail to see the true use of it except that looks pretty.
I am no expert on Logos but I am sure there are things that require lots of overhead to run that is raging the app and barely anyone uses it that could be trim. Or better yet, revise the code to make it faster and you may not have to cut off anything, even if it just one person using it.
I do appreciate them trying to come up with new and glam ways to do things, even if they are just remotely useful to someone, but it should not be by tasking an inefficient app even further.
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David Medina said:
To purchase and install an SSD on my iMac would cost me close to $700.
Perhaps not. Check this out.
Pre 2015 I would not have gone the SSD route because of the high rate of failure.
Now, I cannot imagine not running off a good SSD.
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Thanks, but while I worked as a computer tech for many years I am not inclined to do it myself. I ake my money working with my computer and if by any chance I happen to break the screen or something else trying to install an SSD I would be out of work. I appreciate the suggestion but honestly I cannot risk it.cannot
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David Medina said:
I am not either a greek or hewrew student. I just do basic word studies for which I find the Word Study Guide pretty much useless.
Greek has a wider range of verbal expression than English so my favorite Logos/Verbum feature is Visual Filter highlighting so can "see" range of Greek Verbal expression in resources having Logos Greek Morphology tagging, Logos Wiki has => Examples of visual filters
Thankful for Logos Greek Morphology visual filters being usable in Logos 8 Basic & Verbum 8 Basic. Thankful for Faithlife enabling free sharing of user created visual filter documents. Caveat: opening a resource with Visual Filter highlighting may take a bit longer for hundreds of search results to be combined for simultaneous display (so learned years ago to click & wait). Thankful for a friend helping me with a 2019 model 27" iMac 5K earlier this year => Computer specs used @ Logos for large libraries (Logos, Verbum, and all applications are noticeably more responsive on newer hardware so agree with Faithlife recommendation for NVMe SSD)
Chapter and Verse numbers were added ~500 years ago (for use with Concordances). Unfortunately, number placement has alignment issues with original language thought boundaries: e.g. Philippians 4:6 is in the middle of a Greek sentence. Thankful for Logos/Verbum having the option to hide chapter and verse numbers.
Personally learning Hebrew so Thankful for Mobile Ed Course => Mobile Ed: HB101 Introduction to Biblical Hebrew (10 hour course)
David Medina said:Of course, I know that an SSD will help but that is pricesely my point. I should not have to depend from an SSD to have an app work decently. If that is a requirenment it should be plaster all over te website so we do not waste money buying an app that does not work properly in a normal compuer.
An option for macOS is using an external SSD as the startup disk. SSD should noticeably improve responsiveness for your primary demanding programs (along with Logos/Verbum). Reading 800 MB file from HD takes 10+ seconds while external Sata III SSD takes 2+ seconds and newer NVMe SSD read is less than a second. Note: external SSD can also be used during migration to a newer Mac model (with subsequent reformat to become Time Machine backup device).
New 'normal' is SSD. New MacBook Air, MacBook Pro, iMac Pro, Mac Pro, and Mac Mini models all have SSD. New iMac models have storage options of 5400-rpm HD, Fusion Drive (using small SSD with large HD), and SSD => https://www.apple.com/mac/compare/
Logos Help Center (LHC) includes Desktop articles => Recommended Hardware and Software and => Optimizing Logos Performance
Years ago replaced HD inside 27" iMac with SSD using an I Fix It guide => https://www.ifixit.com/Device/iMac_Intel Older iMac models have magnets holding glass to frame so glass can be pulled out using suction cup(s). For Retina iMac Display (with thinner edges), Apple manufacturing changed to double-sided thin foam tape (so have not tried opening a 5K iMac since tape would need careful replacement).
An unsupported configuration is using an external SSD (with different startup disk). Logos wiki has => Install in different folder or drive Caveat: newer macOS on 2014 model 27" iMac 5k confirmed USB connection to external SSD periodically disappears (had relocated Resources folder to external SSD due to internal SSD lacking storage capacity). Newer 2019 model 27" iMac 5k running macOS 10.15 sometimes has USB disconnect for a Windows external keyboard with LED backlighting.
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I will not risk doing the update myself. If it breaks I cannot longer make a living.
Knowing original laguages could be great but everything you said about it went over my head. At this moment I have no time to learn original languages.
Do you or anyone know how do you delete visual filters?
Thanks,
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I understand. I hope you find an alternative. I stand with you that the Logos code could be slimmed down, but practically SSD has been a solution for the bottleneck.David Medina said:Thanks, but while I worked as a computer tech for many years I am not inclined to do it myself.
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Thanks.
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I think the SSD is a general quality of life improvement for computers. Whenever I go back, HDD seems too slow. So I don't think of it as passing the bucket. Expect it to be more noticeable as more programs are designed with the SSD in mind.
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
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David Wanat said:
... as more programs are designed with the SSD in mind.
SSD and memory. Most machines have underutilized RAM.
I'm no expert, but if Logos had a setting like Large Memory Caching (for instance, the entire index could be cached in memory) slowdowns can be minimized.
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I am sorry but programs are not designed for SSD or HDD. It does not work like that.
Logos has some wonderful tools which is the reason I bought it. I Love the Notes in Logos, best in class, I think. I also love the reports as it helps make sense of so many reources.
When designing software developers usually have available the latest and greatest so for them it runs great. But most users cannot afford upgrades. So they need to take into consideration what system users may be running the program and not just assume that everyone has the blessing of the latest and greatest. Now, I do not know if Logos does or does no do that. I do not know. But telling me to upgrade solve my problem tells me that they may not.
The reason many of you feel Logos is adequate may be that you have been using it for a long time you have gotten used to it and just learned to live with it. But if you were to compare Logos to Accordance you will see how inefficcient and slow Logos really is.
The fact is that whenever Accordance work on their upgrades they make sure that whatever they add does not hurt the user experience and speed. Logos want to be so feature rich that overrides any concern for speed forcing people to invest into a new computer every time a new upgrade comes out if they want to experience a satisfactory user experience. I call that passing the bucket.
Get a new computer you say... I wish it was that easy and, when my computers were brand new Logos didn't run much better either. The truth is that Logos has always been slowest solution out there. So I refuse having to spend more money, money that I do not have, to fix something Logos should be fixing.
And I expect someone to tell me to use Accordance and stop complaining about Logos. If it just were that easy! I have over $1000 invested in Logos over the years and do like many of the tools that Logs have. I just wants them to finally fix this. But if they are willing to refund me what I have invested in Logos I will gladly use Accordance.
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When I went off to college in 1988, I learned about what microcomputers were doing from a Computer Science major friend. I was utter confused why there were so many different ways to edit text. There were text editors - both some really old line based ones and full screen ones. There were Word Processors. And there were Desktop Publishing programs. But in using them, I learned how while they have similar jobs, there are trade offs in efficiency with the various solutions. You don't want to write programs using a Word Processor, since the Word Processor will be inserting format codes everywhere. And while you could do amazing things with a Desktop Publisher, it was slow on real hardware. And you generally would not want to create a tri-fold brochure with edlin... I still see the difference, but on the other hand, used a work computer in the late 90's that used WordPerfect as the text editor for emails, and have seen Word Processors add so many Desktop Publishing features that I have no need whatsoever to use a separate Desktop Publisher for things.
And so there are various software "solutions" to using a computer to help with Bible Study. Logos is designed to work with a library of multiple resources, and has powerful tools to search your library and make connections. Some of these resources are based on the biblical text and the traditional exegetical process - but by no means all, or even most of them. So, while Logos certainly can pull up the textual base of many English Bibles, there are tools that are more specialized in this and so do it MUCH faster.
Your machine is fairly hefty - but its weakness is where Logos needs the most, namely, jumping around a lot on your external storage device. Moore's Law may no longer be that accurate, but at least with SSD's it seems to be close for now. Adding a SSD to my low-end laptop has made Logos perform faster for me than it ever has since Logos 4 came out, with its change in design to whole library searching. I suspect that between SSD's becoming more mainstream on consumer devices as well as Logos having more options to have separate computer and cloud resources that performance will become less of an issue.
Of course, the future is not here. And I certainly understand not wanting to risk a device you depend upon for your livelihood on an upgrade you do yourself. Do try as much of the advice on speeding up performance as you can. But it is certainly possible that Logos may not be the best tool for you with your current tech. But the community of users here is diverse enough that much of what you describe as fluff may be some of the most important features for others. I am so far willing to bet that most of what slows down Logos will become less of an issue on future computers. I certainly have seen Faithlife do massive work to make their program more efficient over the last dozen years...
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
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