Logos 10 Will be released...

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Comments

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,447

    I’d like to see Factbook become ”on demand” instead of being what pops up when I hit enter. 

    Hitting the enter key is "on demand" [;)] However, there have been a number of times in the forums where people have asked for a change in the order of options so that if one types a complete and unambiguous command in the command box, that command becomes the top option e.g. Make Lookup command work exactly like Look Up (again) | Faithlife Faithlife is consistent in the behavior of its select boxes - when the user does not actually make a selection from the list, it is assumed that the first item in the list is intended.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,447

    Well, I think we established the problem. Some of us don’t want it to do that. I’d much rather it defaul to search,

    Ouch! that would drive users like myself nuts - I rarely if ever start a search from the Command line. I would want it to default to Open. Because the priority of options is based on the users' historical use, the current implementation should prioritize search for you and resources (open) for me. I would also find it disruptive to lose consistency in how select lists work in Logos.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • David Wanat
    David Wanat Member Posts: 1,835 ✭✭✭

    MJ. Smith said:

    I’d like to see Factbook become ”on demand” instead of being what pops up when I hit enter. 

    Hitting the enter key is "on demand" Wink However, there have been a number of times in the forums where people have asked for a change in the order of options so that if one types a complete and unambiguous command in the command box, that command becomes the top option e.g. Make Lookup command work exactly like Look Up (again) | Faithlife Faithlife is consistent in the behavior of its select boxes - when the user does not actually make a selection from the list, it is assumed that the first item in the list is intended.

    Therein lies the problem. 

    WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
    Verbum Max

  • xnman
    xnman Member Posts: 2,839 ✭✭✭

    MJ. Smith said:

    Well, I think we established the problem. Some of us don’t want it to do that. I’d much rather it defaul to search,

    Ouch! that would drive users like myself nuts - I rarely if ever start a search from the Command line. I would want it to default to Open. Because the priority of options is based on the users' historical use, the current implementation should prioritize search for you and resources (open) for me. I would also find it disruptive to lose consistency in how select lists work in Logos.

    MJ...,  at the least Logos could set up an option so that us users can choose.

    xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

    Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

  • David Wanat
    David Wanat Member Posts: 1,835 ✭✭✭

    xnman said:

    MJ. Smith said:

    Well, I think we established the problem. Some of us don’t want it to do that. I’d much rather it defaul to search,

    Ouch! that would drive users like myself nuts - I rarely if ever start a search from the Command line. I would want it to default to Open. Because the priority of options is based on the users' historical use, the current implementation should prioritize search for you and resources (open) for me. I would also find it disruptive to lose consistency in how select lists work in Logos.

    MJ...,  at the least Logos could set up an option so that us users can choose.

    Yes. If the Factbook gets better, I might grow to like it. But I don’t at the moment. 

    WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
    Verbum Max

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,447

    xnman said:

    at the least Logos could set up an option so that us users can choose.

    There are two viable options - (1) suggest an alternative to selecting the first item based on user history (current behavior) - an alternative that will consistently provide better results or (2) use the selection list as a selection list and don't hit enter until you see what you are entering. I find the second option the quickest to implement even if it has a high failure rate when I am doing repetitive work.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • xnman
    xnman Member Posts: 2,839 ✭✭✭

    MJ. Smith said:

    xnman said:

    at the least Logos could set up an option so that us users can choose.

    There are two viable options - (1) suggest an alternative to selecting the first item based on user history (current behavior) - an alternative that will consistently provide better results or (2) use the selection list as a selection list and don't hit enter until you see what you are entering. I find the second option the quickest to implement even if it has a high failure rate when I am doing repetitive work.

    Best option is to be able to "turn it off".... which I would promptly do. And you could leave it on for you....

    xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

    Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,447

    xnman said:

    Best option is to be able to "turn it off".

    There is nothing to turn off - there is a only a choice as to what to do when the user hits enter before selecting an action from the selection list. However, I am sure that if I took you suggestion to mean "turn the computer off", the users would quickly learn to wait until they selected a command before hitting enter [6] Seriously, I am sympathetic to your cause in that I often hit enter too quickly myself.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • xnman
    xnman Member Posts: 2,839 ✭✭✭

    MJ. Smith said:

    xnman said:

    Best option is to be able to "turn it off".

    There is nothing to turn off - there is a only a choice as to what to do when the user hits enter before selecting an action from the selection list. However, I am sure that if I took you suggestion to mean "turn the computer off", the users would quickly learn to wait until they selected a command before hitting enter [8-|] Seriously, I am sympathetic to your cause in that I often hit enter too quickly myself.

    Not so.... I meant a way in Settings to turn Factbook off.... Which I would promptly do! ... [8-|]

    It is hard, I think, for people to see that not everyone thinks like they do.  If you love "Factbook" so be it.... Let you "turn on" Factbook and use it like you do.... but .... I don't want it that way.... why not have a choice?

    xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

    Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,447

    xnman said:

    Not so.... I meant a way in Settings to turn Factbook off.... Which I would promptly do! ... Geeked

    I'll support that only after I can turn Strong's off.[:)]

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • xnman
    xnman Member Posts: 2,839 ✭✭✭

    MJ. Smith said:

    xnman said:

    Not so.... I meant a way in Settings to turn Factbook off.... Which I would promptly do! ... Geeked

    I'll support that only after I can turn Strong's off.Smile

    Ok... Now we're getting somewhere.... I'll ask for 2 new choices in Settings..... 1 for Strongs and 1 for Factbook.  I love it when great minds can agree.... lol 

    xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

    Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

  • SineNomine
    SineNomine Member Posts: 7,043

    xnman said:

    I think this is a deterrent to Logos.... really. 

    I think you meant "detriment"? Unless you meant "deterrent for using Logos"?

    “The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara

  • xnman
    xnman Member Posts: 2,839 ✭✭✭

    xnman said:

    I think this is a deterrent to Logos.... really. 

    I think you meant "detriment"? Unless you meant "deterrent for using Logos"?

    I did mean "a deterrent for using Logos." I am one that doesn't like things or functions "forced" on me.... like Factbook is... If FL is going down this road... then I probably will not be spending any more money in Logos.... I hope FL is better than that.

    I am one also that believes wholeheartedly that Search is much to sophisticated that it really cannot do simple things... And because of that, I believe there is a better way...

    In a Bible program, such as Logos, Search becomes one of the main functions in the program... I am convinced by looking at how many times people ask for help with search... and how many complaints about search that I have seen in the forums.... and how many times I have to actually "jump thru hoops" just to find information I am looking for.... that something is wrong with Search in Logos. What good is it to have all the resources one can have and not be able to find the information they want that is in one of those resources?

    When I can go to other search engines... i.e. WordSearch, Google, or others...  and find things I am looking for "almost" in the blink of an eye... then that helps me to stay focused on what I am studying.... but when I try the same search in Logos Search.... then try again a different way...or have to reword my search a couple of times or ask for help on the forums....  all that changes my focus to learning how Logos wants me to search instead of doing my Bible study.... That I don't appreciate. 

    So.... Yes... I think these things are and are becoming more so... a deterrent to using Logos. 

    xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

    Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

  • GaoLu
    GaoLu Member Posts: 3,487 ✭✭✭

    One person's deterrent is another person's incentive. Thankfully, such decisions aren't left up to only one person. Thankfully, we all have a voice in the matter. It's all good.

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,447

    xnman said:

    When I can go to other search engines... i.e. WordSearch, Google, or others...  and find things I am looking for "almost" in the blink of an eye... then that helps me to stay focused on what I am studying.... but when I try the same search in Logos Search.... then try again a different way...or have to reword my search a couple of times or ask for help on the forums....  all that changes my focus to learning how Logos wants me to search instead of doing my Bible study.... That I don't appreciate.

    The questions I use Google to ask, I often have to scan through several pages of results to get to any relevant results ... and I often have to tell it multiple times to get it to do what I ask rather than auto-correct to something I don't want. I have better luck with Google scholar. Why? because I ask Google unusual questions while it is optimized for common questions. But try to find the name of the Russian/Siberian sect that accepts only the book of Revelation as scripture. I know it's there but I can't find it again. Or the small group of Jews more closely related to Beta Israel than Sephardic Jews in Western Africa. Or examples of Christian texts known to be available in Sogdian. Such questions I don't ask of Logos/Verbum. However, in Logos/Verbum, I know "exhaustively" what search elements are available, what elements I find useful (or not), and with the exception of the Syntax search which I rarely use (or need), I can quickly get my results and begin to use them. Yes, Logos/Verbum searches take time to master - but they only require a few key concepts to understand. Most of mastery involves learning to think through what one actually wants and fitting it into the available elements and not wasting time on searches for which the cleanest results are already available in the guides or factbook.

    My point: use the tool that is appropriate for your task - Google, Scholar Google, Factbook, guides, search ...and recognize that the task is always easier with the right tools.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Matt Doebler
    Matt Doebler Member Posts: 186 ✭✭

    I hear what you're saying...but I think comparing a google search to a Logos search is a bit of a false analogy.  Google is an algorithm based search engine that attempts to direct you toward particular results based on a host of factors (most of which has nothing to do with your search terms).  It only seems easy because Google has gotten so good at convincing you that the first page of results contains all the info you need--i.e., Google search trains users to be lazy researchers.  Logos search, on the other hand, is a sophisticated research tool that exists for the sole purpose of making your library more accessible.  Thus, to a certain extent, you have to know your library in order to make the most out of Logos searching.  Furthermore, you have to become acquainted with the various types of searching that Logos can perform--not to mention familiar with the language of searching.  While there is a learning curve to this (including the time needed to become properly acquainted with one's library), the power of the Logos search tool is infinitesimally superior to Google in every way.  The problem is that many Logos users want to use the search tool like they use Google, i.e., to find a bible reference or complete a partially known quote.  Yet, this ignores the actual intended usage of the search tool and leads to the erroneous conclusion that Logos needs to "dumb down" the search tool.  Yet, the search tool is capable of performing tasks that Google can only dream about (e.g., try getting Google to show you every instance where the Hebrew lemma ידע is used in the Qal conjugation in a 3SM form.)  The bottom line is that good research takes time--and it requires training and regular practice.  Yet, it is precisely the capability of Logos search to facilitate quality research that makes it distinct and valuable.  

  • xnman
    xnman Member Posts: 2,839 ✭✭✭

    MJ and Mat Doebler...

    I appreciate your comments and thanks. I didn't "grow up with Logos" and I think therein is my problem. I openly admit it's my problem....  it's just that I keep seeing on forums and such ... questions about how to do such and such in Search... which makes me think... I'm not alone...

    I take heart also because Mike Barns opened up a forum about Search... I think there were some good suggestions in there... 

    I'm not trying to be mean... just trying to point out what I see is a big problem. 

    Thanks again.

    xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

    Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

  • David Wanat
    David Wanat Member Posts: 1,835 ✭✭✭

    xnman said:

    MJ and Mat Doebler...

    I appreciate your comments and thanks. I didn't "grow up with Logos" and I think therein is my problem. I openly admit it's my problem....  it's just that I keep seeing on forums and such ... questions about how to do such and such in Search... which makes me think... I'm not alone...

    I take heart also because Mike Barns opened up a forum about Search... I think there were some good suggestions in there... 

    I'm not trying to be mean... just trying to point out what I see is a big problem. 

    Thanks again.

    You’re definitely not alone. Ive been using it since it was Libronix. I probably don’t know how to use it as effectively as the other contributors to the thread. But I think the original problem of defaulting to a frequently useless Factbook needs to be addressed, whether it’s a change of default or an option to choose that default. 

    WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
    Verbum Max

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,447

    xnman said:

    questions about how to do such and such in Search... which makes me think... I'm not alone...

    Many of the questions are for very complex searches where even defining what one wants is difficult. No matter how simple the interface to the search is, these questions will continue to show up on the forums until we are all proficient in all applicable languages. This is to manage your expectations - we will continue to see many search questions on the forums even if all the relevant suggestions Mark Barnes got are implemented.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,447

    But I think the original problem of defaulting to a frequently useless Factbook needs to be addressed, whether it’s a change of default or an option to choose that default. 

    [:'(][:'(] Okay, I surrender, give up, raise the white flag, concede defeat ...  for one last time "default" doesn't apply to factbook. The objectionable behavior is caused by hitting enter before selecting an item from the select list which is equivalent to selecting the top item - standard behavior of selection lists throughout Logos. I agree that when one has entered a complete, unambiguous command, that command should be the first command in the select list and therefore give the expected behavior.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • David Wanat
    David Wanat Member Posts: 1,835 ✭✭✭

    WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
    Verbum Max

  • Mike Binks
    Mike Binks MVP Posts: 7,436

    And our problem still remains Wink

    And it will until the older generation of instinctive 'Enter' hitters has died off and my generation (trained to observe before smacking a key) takes over. Seeing as I am in my mid 8th decade it won't be too long.

    tootle pip

    Mike

    How to get logs and post them.(now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs) Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS

  • xnman
    xnman Member Posts: 2,839 ✭✭✭

    I think the "hit enter people" are just being stubborn and trying to help FL "push" Factbook down our throats.... [:D]

    I  don't understand the argument for keeping Factbook as the default action when hitting enter....  What is wrong with ... when I type something in the "Go Box" or in Search.... what is wrong with expecting Search to answer INSTEAD of Factbook??

    Especially when Factbook doesn't have anything to say that contributes very little or anything at all to the solution of what I am looking for..... Then I have close Factbook.... and then continue on.... That is "Make work interruptus"....  

    Set a setting in Settings  ....  "Use Factbook ...  Yes No" and let both parties be happy... Why not???

    And I can turn it to "No" and be happy.... and you can leave it on "Yes" and be happy.... WOW!! (smacks forehead) ..... what a novel idea.....  [8-|]    lol     And .... not one would have to concede defeat... [W]

    xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

    Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

  • xnman
    xnman Member Posts: 2,839 ✭✭✭

    And a second item....   why have a "selected list" when I want to search something??  I think that is a problem with Search....  

    So... I type in a "search request" that doesn't fit FL designated "search list" .... what happens?

    My thought on this is....  besides having to close Factbook... which I seem to always have to do... then FL tries to fit my search request into their "selected list" of pre-concluded selections.... and thus.... get some kind of answer that is far fetched from what I am looking for..... and then  I have to go about having to try to figure out the hieroglyphics that FL wants me to jump through to finally get an answer that might not even be close to what I'm looking for. 

    As you can see....  I don't understand Search... I admit that... and I do think Search could be and will be better once we get over this notion that we have to "Jump through the hoops of all the hieroglyphics" in order to find anything.... I don't have to with other search engines.... hint! hint! hint!

    xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

    Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

  • Mike Binks
    Mike Binks MVP Posts: 7,436

    xnman said:

    I  don't understand the argument for keeping Factbook as the default action when hitting enter.... 

    I think you may have a hit on a solution here.

    The obvious thing is that if a selection from the list is necessary then hitting 'Enter' should bring up a box. HHG2TG style...

    tootle pip

    Mike

    How to get logs and post them.(now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs) Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS

  • xnman
    xnman Member Posts: 2,839 ✭✭✭

    xnman said:

    I  don't understand the argument for keeping Factbook as the default action when hitting enter.... 

    I think you may have a hit on a solution here.

    The obvious thing is that if a selection from the list is necessary then hitting 'Enter' should bring up a box. HHG2TG style...

    My friend from across the pond.... I think we are on to something!  [8-|]

    xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

    Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 3,087 ✭✭

    xnman said:

    xnman said:

    I  don't understand the argument for keeping Factbook as the default action when hitting enter.... 

    I think you may have a hit on a solution here.

    The obvious thing is that if a selection from the list is necessary then hitting 'Enter' should bring up a box. HHG2TG style...

    My friend from across the pond.... I think we are on to something!  Geeked

    I'd think, just put that box as a result of clicking on the Factbook icon!  I hope I didn't upset the Factbook'ers.

  • David Wanat
    David Wanat Member Posts: 1,835 ✭✭✭

    And our problem still remains Wink

    And it will until the older generation of instinctive 'Enter' hitters has died off and my generation (trained to observe before smacking a key) takes over. Seeing as I am in my mid 8th decade it won't be too long.

    This is all lighthearted, of course.

    In all fairness, Logos changed how things always worked. Those of us who used it since it was Libronix expect things to continue to work that way. So, why object to a toggle switch?

    WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
    Verbum Max

  • Andrew Batishko
    Andrew Batishko Member, Administrator, Community Manager, Logos Employee Posts: 5,395

    xnman said:

    I  don't understand the argument for keeping Factbook as the default action when hitting enter....  What is wrong with ... when I type something in the "Go Box" or in Search.... what is wrong with expecting Search to answer INSTEAD of Factbook??

    The command box ("Go Box") at the top of the window was never designed as primarily a search box. In fact, in the past it was heavily pushed as a gateway to the Passage Guide. It was designed as a command box that gives you access to all parts of the program. It was also never intended that a user would type something and blindly hit enter before seeing what showed up in the list.

    That said, if you know you want to search, then rather than hitting "enter", you should be hitting "shift-enter", which will always run the search. You can safely hit that without viewing the list of suggestions that pops up. There are some other search options as well with hotkeys (you can see the hotkey at the bottom of the list of suggestions) that are also safe to use without first checking to see what else shows up in the list.

    As far as Factbook showing up in the search panel. You should be able to collapse that section, and it should stay collapsed so that it doesn't get in your way.

    xnman said:

    And a second item....   why have a "selected list" when I want to search something??  I think that is a problem with Search....  So... I type in a "search request" that doesn't fit FL designated "search list" .... what happens?

    If I'm understand correctly what you are saying, I think you are objecting to the fact that in the search panel, you type something and see a selection of suggested items in the list that doesn't match what you want.

    The suggestion box in the Search panel is different than the command box ("Go Box"). In the search panel, the suggestions are doing their best to help you with the syntax by trying to guess what terms you are trying to search for. You can certainly ignore the suggestions, but it is drawing the suggestions from the list of what Faithlife has tagged. If you can't find what you are looking for, then either it hasn't been tagged, or you and Faithlife have a disagreement on the name of what has been tagged.

    One of the easiest ways to find the exact syntax for a search is to find an example in a resource of what you want to search. Then right click on it and find the thing you are interested in on the left side of the popup. Then from the right you can start a search. That will usually give you the desired syntax. If you are needing a more complicated search, you can do this for multiple terms and combine them in a single search as needed.

    Andrew Batishko | Logos software developer

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 3,087 ✭✭

    The command box ("Go Box") at the top of the window was never designed as primarily a search box. In fact, in the past it was heavily pushed as a gateway to the Passage Guide. It was designed as a command box that gives you access to all parts of the program. It was also never intended that a user would type something and blindly hit enter before seeing what showed up in the list.

    I think you identified the cultural problem. Users see software as a solution ... not a design to be battled. Staff see users as not correctly following the design. 

    Then, there's 'customers'.