M1 Mac Chip Compatibility
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Making inferences, whether concerning Apple or FL (or both), are just that, *inferences*. Rhetorically, there is no hard-and-fast expectation of being accurate, especially since, by definition, making inferences presumes a measure of speculation, and insisting on accuracy is unrealistic. Otherwise, all sorts of speculative statements, opinions, conjectures, and so forth (of which this forum is filled) would need to be held to the same standard of allegedly being "accurate."
Also, I made no insinuation that I speak in an official capacity for Apple, FL, or anyone else, besides myself. Indeed, whatever I post here (and elsewhere) is my own personal opinion. If anyone deems to make decisions of a fiduciary nature based on my statements of inference and/or opinion, they do so of their own volition, w/o any presumed liability on my part.
Ergo, it is unrealistic to insist (especially in a public forum) that a greater degree of accuracy be maintained by me for the sorts of observations I’ve put forward up to this point.
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There are two viable pathways:
- Mono adds native support (6–12 mos. ???).
- .NET 6 adds native support (12–18 mos.).
Thanks for providing initial development estimates. These are the estimates for when the runtime and tools will natively support Apple Silicon on a Mac. I would assume there would be additional time for the FL team to get Logos up and ready for distribution to their user base.
I'm roughly accounting for both in these estimates.
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Decisions made years ago are now coming back around to make this a difficult task.
There are tradeoffs with every technology choice, and we don't regret using Mono to deliver Logos on Mac. We don't have the luxury of being able to write Logos natively on five platforms. It's heavy use of code sharing that makes it possible for us to build and maintain such a robust app on five platforms. We have roughly 25 developers working on Windows, MacOS, iOS/iPadOS, and the web app (while maintaining responsibility for a variety of other apps, services, and technologies).
We use Mono to share code between Windows and MacOS. We used Xamarin to share code between iOS/iPadOS and Android, though we've dialed back from that for various reasons. We're using Flutter to build a mobile app for Faithlife Courses on iOS/iPadOS and Android. We use WebAssembly (Wasm) to share desktop code with the web app. And we're making heavy use of web technologies to share code between desktop and web—and with Factbook even with mobile.
These features are all written as shared web components:
- Atlas
- Bible Browser
- Canvas
- Charts
- Courses
- Factbook
- Homepage
- Media
- Notes
- Sermon Builder
- Sermon Manager
- Text Comparison
- Workflow Editor
Our interactive resources are another form of HTML-based code sharing between desktop and web.
Interesting. Admittedly, I'm catching on (barely) to the challenges that FL is facing porting the app to Apple silicon. It seems allowing the FL Mac development team to develop Logos in Xcode from the beginning would have been a massive task, but would've made for a more optimized Logos Mac app and a much easier transition with this current challenge, but the cost would be the inability to share code between development teams and maintain parity between the Win/Mac apps. If I'm correct in this, then I can understand that there are plusses and minuses to each scenario.
You are tracking correctly with what I'm saying.
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I created a feedback item for this, which you're free to vote for. Voting will help us see how important this is collectively to the Logos community, but it may not change the actual timeline, which is the fastest possible path to native support. See this clarification below.
phil, I clicked the link and it asked me to sign up. I dont want to sign up for another things. I’ve had Apple products for the last 10 years and with the new M1 and “affordable“ price I plan to stay with Apple. I want to get the new MBP 13” with M1. Running Logos is the only reason what I plan to spend so much money on a computer else I would just buy a $1000 computer like my dads. My current Mac is from 2010 and it so old Logos and Apple doesnt support it. If it wasn’t for Logos I would just keep using it. I really want to stay with Apple but from what I’ve read here and on other conversations it seems like Logos running on M1 has mixed reviews. At this point I plan to get a new MBP 13” with M1 chip very soon. I keep my computers forever so I’m really interested in Logos running well on a Mac. So, this is my vote for Logos to do whatever it can so folks who use Apple products get the same out of Logos as folks who use the competition.
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As long as FL is working towards getting Logos to run better on Silicon, I am completely happy with whatever means they choose to do it.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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Hi Ken,
- I have downloaded Logos 9 unto a base Mac mini with the M1 processor with 8gb ram. Here are some thoughts:
- Indexing on my 16" MBP sets on fans in high speed and heats up my computer like its a griddle. Indexing on the mini was cool and fast it didn't even kick the fans on.
- I had no issues downloading and installing L9 on the Mac mini.The library resources load very quickly and have been mostly stable (only one crash). I work from a fairly standard split view 3 column across and multiple vertical columns.
- The only real drawback has been the Home Screen. My MBP load the explore articles and will scroll through them fairly smoothly. The Mac mini struggled to load articles and would barely scroll.
- MBP has 16 Gb Ram and the mini only has 8. I attribute this to the Home Screen slowing as Logos has always been quite the resource hog.
- I think is you can port a universal M1 native Logos 9, you will have the given the user the best platform for performance. I think the native version would be very fast and smooth given what I have seen from the emulated/ translated version.
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Hi Ken,
- I have downloaded Logos 9 unto a base Mac mini with the M1 processor with 8gb ram. Here are some thoughts:
- Indexing on my 16" MBP sets on fans in high speed and heats up my computer like its a griddle. Indexing on the mini was cool and fast it didn't even kick the fans on.
- I had no issues downloading and installing L9 on the Mac mini.The library resources load very quickly and have been mostly stable (only one crash). I work from a fairly standard split view 3 column across and multiple vertical columns.
- The only real drawback has been the Home Screen. My MBP load the explore articles and will scroll through them fairly smoothly. The Mac mini struggled to load articles and would barely scroll.
- MBP has 16 Gb Ram and the mini only has 8. I attribute this to the Home Screen slowing as Logos has always been quite the resource hog.
- I think is you can port a universal M1 native Logos 9, you will have the given the user the best platform for performance. I think the native version would be very fast and smooth given what I have seen from the emulated/ translated version.
I've got 16GB RAM on my M1 MacBook Air and the home screen is barely useable, so it's not the RAM. There's no doubt M1 native Logos will be screaming fast. All the native apps I currently use are insanely fast.
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- The only real drawback has been the Home Screen. My MBP load the explore articles and will scroll through them fairly smoothly. The Mac mini struggled to load articles and would barely scroll.
- MBP has 16 Gb Ram and the mini only has 8. I attribute this to the Home Screen slowing as Logos has always been quite the resource hog.
I've got 16GB RAM on my M1 MacBook Air and the home screen is barely useable, so it's not the RAM. There's no doubt M1 native Logos will be screaming fast. All the native apps I currently use are insanely fast.
As I mentioned above, there seems to be a bug with CEF (the Chromium Embedded Framework), which we use for web views in our interactives and shared web components, including the homepage. We'll look into this and see if we can address it.
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- The only real drawback has been the Home Screen. My MBP load the explore articles and will scroll through them fairly smoothly. The Mac mini struggled to load articles and would barely scroll.
- MBP has 16 Gb Ram and the mini only has 8. I attribute this to the Home Screen slowing as Logos has always been quite the resource hog.
I've got 16GB RAM on my M1 MacBook Air and the home screen is barely useable, so it's not the RAM. There's no doubt M1 native Logos will be screaming fast. All the native apps I currently use are insanely fast.
As I mentioned above, there seems to be a bug with CEF (the Chromium Embedded Framework), which we use for web views in our interactives and shared web components, including the homepage. We'll look into this and see if we can address it.
I have a new MacBook Pro silicon 8 GB Ram and except for the potential bug with CEF you have addressed here everything else, in my experience so far, is fast and smooth.
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This is slightly off topic, but is there any chance I will ever be able to use visual/morphology filters on my reverse interlinears on my iPad?
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I did some very non-scientific tests on the performance of Logos on my M1 MacBook Pro and wrote about it on my website.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmoqW-jPIgM
Not as polished but you can see how it runs here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3VhIcJ8Thc and here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=px7AaTfKyTs
My article: https://www.kevinpurcell.org/m1-macbook-pro-and-bible-study-apps/
I hate the self promotional nature of this post, but since people are discussing this, I felt it was applicable. Enjoy or don't. Feel free to react over there on the videos if you disagree or agree with anything.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Thank you!I did some very non-scientific tests on the performance of Logos on my M1 MacBook Pro and wrote about it on my website.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmoqW-jPIgM
Not as polished but you can see how it runs here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3VhIcJ8Thc and here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=px7AaTfKyTs
My article: https://www.kevinpurcell.org/m1-macbook-pro-and-bible-study-apps/
I hate the self promotional nature of this post, but since people are discussing this, I felt it was applicable. Enjoy or don't. Feel free to react over there on the videos if you disagree or agree with anything.
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I did some very non-scientific tests on the performance of Logos on my M1 MacBook Pro and wrote about it on my website.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmoqW-jPIgM
Not as polished but you can see how it runs here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3VhIcJ8Thc and here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=px7AaTfKyTs
My article: https://www.kevinpurcell.org/m1-macbook-pro-and-bible-study-apps/
I hate the self promotional nature of this post, but since people are discussing this, I felt it was applicable. Enjoy or don't. Feel free to react over there on the videos if you disagree or agree with anything.
Nice video Kevin. I have the MacBook Air M1 16GB RAM with 1TB SSD. My results are similar to yours with Logos. The homepage is almost unusable, seems this is due to a bug. I haven't tried the Psalms Explorer, but heard that was laggy as well. It's amazing how fast Accordance is...
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I did some very non-scientific tests on the performance of Logos on my M1 MacBook Pro and wrote about it on my website.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmoqW-jPIgM
Not as polished but you can see how it runs here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3VhIcJ8Thc and here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=px7AaTfKyTs
My article: https://www.kevinpurcell.org/m1-macbook-pro-and-bible-study-apps/
I hate the self promotional nature of this post, but since people are discussing this, I felt it was applicable. Enjoy or don't. Feel free to react over there on the videos if you disagree or agree with anything.
thank you very much for the videos. Seeing Logos perform in the video helped me decide to buy the new MacBook.
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Did Faithlife not obtain a DTK from Apple back in June when the transition to Apple Silicon was announced? I'm surprised that more of this information wasn't determined 6 months ago.
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Did Faithlife not obtain a DTK from Apple back in June when the transition to Apple Silicon was announced? I'm surprised that more of this information wasn't determined 6 months ago.
I'm a little surprised myself. I love Logos and use it every day - and continue to add to my library, so obviously I'm not going any where. It shouldn't be news that Logos has always been slow, but now that M1 apps are becoming more and more common, the disparity between the near-instant response I enjoy from native apps (absolutely blazing speed) and Logos is VERY pronounced.
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Did Faithlife not obtain a DTK from Apple back in June when the transition to Apple Silicon was announced? I'm surprised that more of this information wasn't determined 6 months ago.
I'm a little surprised myself. I love Logos and use it every day - and continue to add to my library, so obviously I'm not going any where. It shouldn't be news that Logos has always been slow, but now that M1 apps are becoming more and more common, the disparity between the near-instant response I enjoy from native apps (absolutely blazing speed) and Logos is VERY pronounced.
Nick, what do you run Logos on?
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Did Faithlife not obtain a DTK from Apple back in June when the transition to Apple Silicon was announced? I'm surprised that more of this information wasn't determined 6 months ago.
If I read the response from FL correctly, they did get it. FL is very much on the ball in terms of new things. But how much time they put into gearing up when the main course is an all-platform new version is obviously going to defer to what needs preparation. They chose the better part.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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Nick, what do you run Logos on?
I'm using an intel MBP and iPad Pro. Planning to move to an Apple Silicon Mac in the next 12 months.
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I'm surprised that more of this information wasn't determined 6 months ago.
What information?
For clarification: As per Phil, moving to a "native" Apple Silicon app will require third party software to be updated first before FL can do so.
This is true. FL decided not develop Logos for Mac using Xcode many years ago. This mean FL is at the mercy of third party development tools to be updated before they can even begin addressing issues such as what Mac M1 users are currently experiencing with Logos. I understand why FL made this choice, and I understand there are trade-offs either way. Logos benefits by sharing code between development teams and keeping perfect parity on desktop platforms. Personally I would prefer FL to develop in Xcode for their Mac users, but I don't run the place. Logos is an amazing tool - I'm constantly blown away by it. So while I'm upset with the development timeline, where else am I going to go?
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I finally pulled the trigger - after thinking I'd wait - and upgraded from my i3 MacBook Air to an M1 Air. It arrived today, and I have been putting it through its paces with Verbum and other apps/software. Overall, this M1 lives up to the hype. With Verbum, everything is faster than my Intel Air except for scrolling the homepage. The homepage stutters and delays momentarily as I scroll. Once I stop scrolling, there's a brief pause before the mostly blank screen gets populated. My M1 Air has 16GB of unified memory; I don't know if that has any effect on the speed issues some of you have run into compared to having 8 GB.
And the silence! No fan comes on! Wonderful! I can already tell that battery life is better, even on the first day I'm using it. I'm pleased so far with my M1 Air.
We all know that Rosetta 2 won't be around forever. The first Rosetta latest about two or three years, I believe. We'll need a native M1 app eventually. But, other than the homepage scrolling, I see solid performance improvements thus far. The SSD is quite fast, which should help with indexing.
Some have asked about the possibility of using the iPadOS Logos/Verbum app on an M1 Mac. I'd say not yet. The ability to run iPhone/iPad apps on the M1 Mac seems more like a beta feature to me now. Maybe after the next Big Sur update it might make sense. If I were FL, I wouldn't waste energy on this option just yet.
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I finally received my new 13" MacBook Pro with Apple M1, 16-GB, and 1-TB SSD. I installed Logos 9.1 on to macOS Big Sur 11.0.1.
Unlike my other Macs, this 2020 model supports WiFi 6, and since I recently upgraded my home to WiFi 6 (Linksys Velop AX5300), I was hoping for the initial download of the 38.6-GB of resources to run faster. After all, Speedtest shows the M1 MacBook Pro gives me a download speed of 525-Mbps over WiFi 6. However, I didn't notice any appreciable speed up in the download.
Indexing of the 9,751 resources and 159 datasets took 1 hour and 42 minutes. The exterior of the MacBook Pro did get pretty warm, and the fan finally kicked on at 99%.
I'm pretty amazed at the responsiveness and speed of the Apple M1. I've used it with my other apps, but I'm just now going to play around with Logos.
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I wanted to compare the time it takes to index when new resources are added. So I bought 3 new resources and ran a comparison with three devices. They are all running Logos 9.1 on macOS Big Sur 11.0.1
2019 27-inch iMac with Retina 5K display, 3.6GHz 8-core 9th-generation Intel Core i9 processor, 16GB 2666MHz DDR4 memory, Radeon Pro 580X with 8GB of GDDR5 memory, 1TB SSD storage
4 minutes 9 seconds (04:09) fan came on at 99%
2019 15-inch MacBook Pro, 2.3GHz 8-core 9th-generation Intel Core i9 processor, 16GB 2400MHz DDR4 memory, Radeon Pro 560X with 4GB of GDDR5 memory, 1TB SSD storage
5 minutes 38 seconds (05:38) fan came on at 98%
2020 13-inch MacBook Pro, Apple M1 chip with 8-core CPU and 8-core GP and 16-core Neural Engine, 16GB unified memory, 1TB SSD storage
5 minutes 0 seconds (05:00) fan did not come on
The M1 MacBook, running the Intel code of Logos under Rosetta 2 emulation, managed to beat out the MacBook with the 2.3-GHz Intel i9. However, it ran slower than the iMac with the 3.6-GHz Intel i9.
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After 3 weeks of usage, I concur. It is actually faster than my former 2019 i9 Macbook on both an M1 Air and M1 Mini. However, Logos is notoriously slow with loading saved layouts as well as certain searches, so that issue remains.
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I'm on the Big Sur 11.1 beta. Scrolling the homepage and working with such features as Psalms Explorer is much smoother now. I mention this because some people found the homepage unusable on the M1 Mac. Looks like Apple is addressing some of these issues on their end, even if not deliberately for us!
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I'm on the Big Sur 11.1 beta. Scrolling the homepage and working with such features as Psalms Explorer is much smoother now. I mention this because some people found the homepage unusable on the M1 Mac. Looks like Apple is addressing some of these issues on their end, even if not deliberately for us!
Yep, macOS Big Sur 11.1 was released yesterday, and Mark is right. Scrolling the Home page is much smoother.
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Logos on the new M1 works just fine. It's a tad slower to load than the intel i5. Once things are running, they are fine. Here's my video of side by side comparisons of them loading. https://youtu.be/1e052zaQoQA
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