M1 Mac Chip Compatibility

Now that Apple has announced more M1 products today (24" iMac and the new iPad Pro), any new updates on updating Logos to run natively? All of their products will be M1-based before we know it...

Now that Apple has announced more M1 products today (24" iMac and the new iPad Pro), any new updates on updating Logos to run natively? All of their products will be M1-based before we know it...

Faithlife feedback => Native Support for Apple Silicon Processors currently has status of Planned (no new comments by FL) with 47 votes (#8 overall for Logos Desktop App, with an increase of 16 votes since 27 Jan 2021).

Caveat: new feedback website needs a separate login so please vote => Add the feedback website to the Faithlife SSO system that has 17 votes.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Caveat: new feedback website needs a separate login so please vote => Add the feedback website to the Faithlife SSO system that has 17 votes.

Unfortunately, you have to have a separate login. Consequently, I haven't voted for it. 

Caveat: new feedback website needs a separate login so please vote => Add the feedback website to the Faithlife SSO system that has 17 votes.

Unfortunately, you have to have a separate login. Consequently, I haven't voted for it. 

I can only imagine how user voting would increase if the new feedback website was integrated into the Faithlife SSO system. Logos UserVoice had suggestions with at least 900 users voting while Logos Desktop App has 84 votes for Paper Builder (currently the most)

Keep Smiling [:)

I'm looking to get the 24" iMac. I can get the 8GB of RAM today at the local store, or I can wait a couple months for 16GB of RAM to be shipped to me. Because of the unified memory concept and everything being on the same chip, is the amount of RAM still as significant as it used to be?

I'm always in favor of the "get as much as you can afford" concept, but there are other considerations that make getting it sooner more appealing, if not necessary.

Hi Gabriel,

I have been using both an M1 Mini and an M1 air since release.

I did decide on 16GB on both of my units, and I am glad I did this.

I do not have a need on either of my macs for more than 2 monitors, but if you have **any** applications that require Rosetta2 - Logos/Proclaim - you will be better served with 16G due to swap issues.

I also needed to run windows, so I run Parallels with the ARM version of Windows 10. Since that will run **any** windows app via its own translation method, it was important to me to have the memory for the VM to be up alongside everything else. I knew this going into the purchase, so chose 16G up front. As a side note, the Windows in Parallels running windows native windows apps through essentially 2 translation layers runs amazingly well... 

There is an even more important reason on the iMac to obtain the 16GB version:
1) ports. You will **need** the full array of ports that is only available on the 16GB version

I would start shopping Apple stores directly. Here in Northern VA we had several stores that had the 16G iMac in stock as late as yesterday, since many folks were purchasing the lower-end unit for students or as secondary computers. The 8G model was gone in less than an hour. I also started shopping a bit broader, since we have a fair number of Apple stores in the DC-Baltimore corridor. Some had 16g models in stock, but they tended toward the pricier 1TB SSD models.

In any case, I would say the 16G is essential. Some other issues are SSD swap usage on 8G models (running Proclaim with Logos and MS Word and OneNote, some of the 8G units were swapping quite a bit... it is very FAST, but does wear on the SSD).  When we added OBS to the mix on one of the 8G Macbooks at the church we noticed the swap usage was quite high... as soon as we put the 16G mac mini in place that issue went away.

- Matt

To add to this, 

I just "discovered" this last Friday when I received my new iPad. I had seen this post, and forgotten this feature was available. While setting up my new unit, I installed the logos app, opened a sermon and WOW do I like this.

There are  times I will want to add/remove something on the fly from my notes, even right before preaching, so being able to edit this on the unit I use while preaching is a wonderful feature.

Previously I was using the Logos web app to handle this on my iPad, but the Logos app now handles this VERY well. It even has the "preach" feature and seems to control the slides fairly well (we always have lag due to the poor internet connection at our church building). 

Thanks to the LOGOS team for this!!!

I'm looking to get the 24" iMac. I can get the 8GB of RAM today at the local store, or I can wait a couple months for 16GB of RAM to be shipped to me. Because of the unified memory concept and everything being on the same chip, is the amount of RAM still as significant as it used to be?

I'm always in favor of the "get as much as you can afford" concept, but there are other considerations that make getting it sooner more appealing, if not necessary.

It's always good to have more RAM, but 8 is still good for day-to-day tasks and even some video/graphics work. That said, like the other poster above (Matthew) said, Rosetta is safer with more RAM. If Logos made a native ARM port sooner rather than later, this wouldn't be an issue.

Caveat: new feedback website needs a separate login so please vote => Add the feedback website to the Faithlife SSO system that has 17 votes.

I gladly created a separate login to get this item closer to the top. Just takes a few seconds. I would encourage others to do the same. I think it is totally worth it. You can even connect to Facebook or Google to shorten the process.

I second this! Can we please have some updates about M1 compatibility? Just got an update today, and nothing about M1. 

I second this! Can we please have some updates about M1 compatibility? Just got an update today, and nothing about M1. 

FL doesn’t often provide time tables. However, see this post and the link at the bottom of it. https://community.logos.com/forums/p/196433/1139418.aspx#1139418 

Since Mono added support for the M1 3 months ago, does that mean we are roughly a few months away from native support? 

does that mean we are roughly a few months away from native support? 

Nope. But we can hope. 

Can we at least assume that FL is taking the "Mono" path since it's the quickest according to their own estimates? 

Can we at least assume that FL is taking the "Mono" path since it's the quickest according to their own estimates? 

Mono affects cross platform shared code. Looking at "About Logos" or "About Verbum" has a scrollable list of copyrighted software components in Logos & Verbum applications on macOS. To run natively on M1 Mac Chip needs native software code for all components.

Keep Smiling [:)]

So was this inaccurate?

”The two mostly likely pathways to native support probably look like this:”

1. Mono adds support for Apple's M1 ARM processor, allowing us to generate and compile directly to ARM. Mono already supports other ARM platforms. I haven't seen any advertised time frames, but maybe this path could be 6–12 months out? That's a wild guess, so I wouldn't put much stock in it until we hear something official from Mono. But this path should be faster, since they already support other ARM platforms.

So was this inaccurate?

Mono Supported Architectures => https://www.mono-project.com/docs/about-mono/supported-platforms/ includes ARM for Linux, iPhone, Android. Almost 7 months after 28 Nov 2020 update shows mono-project has not added ARM Support for Apple Silicon. In February 2021, Microsoft unveiled .NET 6 Preview. Humanly not know which path to Apple Silicon native support will become viable first. Speculating: if .NET 6 in 2022, then Logos 10 & Verbum 10 may be the first application release that can run natively on Apple Silicon using macOS.

Thankful for update on 27 Nov 2020

The two mostly likely pathways to native support probably look like this:

1. Mono adds support for Apple's M1 ARM processor, allowing us to generate and compile directly to ARM. Mono already supports other ARM platforms. I haven't seen any advertised time frames, but maybe this path could be 6–12 months out? That's a wild guess, so I wouldn't put much stock in it until we hear something official from Mono. But this path should be faster, since they already support other ARM platforms.
2. We move to .NET 5 (planned to start in Q1 for other reasons) and then to .NET 6 a year later, which plans to add full support for Apple's Silicon: code generation, compiler support, official testing and support by Microsoft. .NET 6 is due in February of 2022, so this pathway puts us at least 15–18 months out, I'd guess.

A couple of clarifications:

1. Getting Logos 9 running natively on Apple's Silicon is planned and very important to us. It's not a matter of if but when. The M1 shows promise for making Logos run faster on Mac, and we're excited about that.
2. The two paths I laid out above are the fastest paths to native support. The two alternatives—rewriting the app and building M1 support into .NET 5 and/or Mono—would both take longer. The first alternative would probably take a dozen developers 4–6 years. Not sure about the second, but it's not a feasible path for many reasons.

So, we'll get to native support as quickly as we can, but we're blocked by .NET and Mono and can't go any faster than they do.

The priority for us right now, while we wait for these third parties, is making sure Logos 9 runs well via Rosetta 2. We have some work do to in our web views based on CEF's slow performance. We'll keep testing and working to make sure M1 users are well supported both now and after we're able to deliver native support.

Thankful for code base insight on 28 Nov 2020

Decisions made years ago are now coming back around to make this a difficult task.

There are tradeoffs with every technology choice, and we don't regret using Mono to deliver Logos on Mac. We don't have the luxury of being able to write Logos natively on five platforms. It's heavy use of code sharing that makes it possible for us to build and maintain such a robust app on five platforms. We have roughly 25 developers working on Windows, MacOS, iOS/iPadOS, and the web app (while maintaining responsibility for a variety of other apps, services, and technologies).

 

We use Mono to share code between Windows and MacOS. We used Xamarin to share code between iOS/iPadOS and Android, though we've dialed back from that for various reasons. We're using Flutter to build a mobile app for Faithlife Courses on iOS/iPadOS and Android. We use WebAssembly (Wasm) to share desktop code with the web app. And we're making heavy use of web technologies to share code between desktop and web—and with Factbook even with mobile.

These features are all written as shared web components:

1. Atlas
2. Bible Browser
3. Canvas
4. Charts
5. Courses
6. Factbook
7. Homepage
8. Media
9. Notes
10. Sermon Builder
11. Sermon Manager
12. Text Comparison
13. Workflow Editor

Our interactive resources are another form of HTML-based code sharing between desktop and web.

Faithlife feedback => Native Support for Apple Silicon Processors currently has 70 votes (# 4 for Most votes in Logos Desktop) and status of Planned.

Caveat: new feedback website needs a separate login so please vote => Add the feedback website to the Faithlife SSO system that has 31 votes.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Logos 9 Mac native on M1 for sure.

So I don't have much new to add but did want to point out that using Logos 9 on M1 iMac is not a joy.  It is so slow compared to my several year old similarly configured laptop that I find myself using it (even though it is much smaller screen, etc).  Simple tasks that are nearly instant on my intel laptop often take multiple seconds on the iMac. . .I find myself waiting 30 percent of the time. ..

Hope they get native fast. . .

So I don't have much new to add but did want to point out that using Logos 9 on M1 iMac is not a joy.  It is so slow compared to my several year old similarly configured laptop that I find myself using it (even though it is much smaller screen, etc).  Simple tasks that are nearly instant on my intel laptop often take multiple seconds on the iMac. . .I find myself waiting 30 percent of the time. ..

Hope they get native fast. . .

Hi Adam,

That is not my experience. I think you should start a separate thread with logs and see if this can't be fixed for you,

So I don't have much new to add but did want to point out that using Logos 9 on M1 iMac is not a joy.  It is so slow compared to my several year old similarly configured laptop that I find myself using it

I do not remember reading a similar opinion. It might be good for you to trouble shoot your install. 

Good advice. . I'll do that shortly.

The other advice given is good (to look into some trouble shooting). That being said, I would like to keep this at the attention of the Faithlife crew. It has been over a year, getting close to 18 months. For me, I have noticed an uptick in crashes lately for my Logos desktop app. It honestly isn't a big deal when it restarts quickly, but there are times when I start Logos 3 or 4 times and it keeps spinning and says, 'application not responding'. I understand that this may have other issues besides the M1 chip, but similar to what Adam is saying, Logos is by far the slowest app on my laptop when it comes to a restart. 

Logos is by far the slowest app on my laptop when it comes to a restart. 

That will likely always be the case. I remember when it took over a minute!

We're watching this space closely (performance testing and reports from users, the release of more Macs with Apple's Silicon, the adoption rate by our users in particular and the market in general, and various technology paths for getting to native support). We'll keep you updated as we learn more and our plans solidify.

Any updates on the progress of getting Logos running natively on Apple silicon (M1, future M2, etc)?

I can concur with this on a Macbook Pro M1 Max. I have 2-4 crashes per day of Logos, and same "application not responding"

Further, fresh starts of Logos fail 1/2 of the time... So 50%, I must force quite and restart the app. At that point 3/4 start correctly, and 1/4 fails again, and I must force quit.

If I make it to a third attempt to start, Logos starts 100% of the time.

This is a 32G machine.  I have an M1 ultra on the way, I will report any changes with that device.

Logos can be sluggish on the M1, but the Max chip definitely runs it better.

I have a MacBook Air without any crashes. Anyone experiencing crashes should 1) create a new thread, 2) post relevant details, and 3) post logs. 

New 24" iMac with M1 chip.

Had a few incidents where Logos remained active after Cmd-Q. All windows closed, but Logos remained on the Menu bar. After update to 9.13 Beta 1, the problem seems to have disappeared.

Had a fe crashes, but after I cleared the Logging folder to have a clean report—and upgraded to 9.13 Beta 1—the crashes seem to have ceased.

Everything else seems to be running smoothly, roughly the same as my previous 2017 iMac—perhaps a little faster.

I'm running Logos on M1 MBA as well with relatively no issues at the moment. Thanks!

Any updates on the progress of implementing any of the above into the next version of Logos? Logos X (M1)???

Would there be betas involved at some point?

Would there be betas involved at some point?

Yes, but FL will not make a public announcement until the next version is close to release.

Hi - any update?

I can't answer the first question since I haven't upgraded from Logos 6 on my old MacBook Air 11" Mid 2011.

Second question I can answer:  I bought a MacBook Pro M1 13" CTO in 2021 with 2 TB SSD and 16 GB Ram.  Next Mac will be M based as Apple just released the MacStudio with the M1 Ultra and are planning on replacing the remaining Intel x86-64 processors this year:  Mac Pro and Intel Mac Mini.  MacRumors.com and Appleinsider.com says Apple is working on 9 different Macs with M1 successor the M2.  Intel is dead in Apple's development cycle.  Apple even has switched iPads to M1 processors.

Third question I can answer:  the performance gain is that most Apps that are still using Rosetta are usually terrible memory hogs and cause heavy CPU activity.  A native app is usually more efficient in memory use (smaller footprint) and less CPU activity.

Fourth question I really can't answer.  However, I probably won't upgrade until there is an Apple Silicon native version.  90% of my apps are Apple Silicon native.

I have joined the Apple Silicon team. A new 16" M1 Pro, thanks to an academic fellowship. Just waiting for native compatibility now. Would love to be involved with those betas. 

I have joined the Apple Silicon team. A new 16" M1 Pro, thanks to an academic fellowship. Just waiting for native compatibility now. Would love to be involved with those betas. 

Greetings,

I wanted to share that my experience with a 2021 MacBook Pro M1 Max w/ 32 GB RAM is quite different. Even in Rosetta, Verbum "feels" faster than the app running natively on my 2019 Mac Pro 16-core w/ 384 GB RAM. I especially like the fact that it will happily use as many cores as it can (often reaching 850% utilization) to index.

As a result, I agree it may be worthwhile to check logs and do some troubleshooting to see if there is an incompatibility or some other issue on your machine. It should run a bit better than what you describe.

Best wishes

M2 MacBook Air and M2 MacBook Pro announced yesterday at WWDC.  I hope ya'll were there because macOS 13 Ventura was also announced and developer beta released.  Apple is eliminating support for all Macs released before 2017 and in some cases all Macs released before 2019 (MacPro).   Time to get an Apple Silicon native version out.  Intel x86 Mac is dying.

M2 MacBook Air and M2 MacBook Pro announced yesterday at WWDC.  I hope ya'll were there because macOS 13 Ventura was also announced and developer beta released.  Apple is eliminating support for all Macs released before 2017 and in some cases all Macs released before 2019 (MacPro).   Time to get an Apple Silicon native version out.  Intel x86 Mac is dying.

I'm running our native ARM Mac build. We're expecting to release it later this year.

Well, that is exciting.

Say you are Let's see it on YouTube!

Great to hear an update on this! If Logos 10 is released Q4 2022 I suspect ARM would be ready by then.

This is great news for all of us that run Logos on Apple silicon. I am eagerly waiting.

That is good news.   I am glad to hear that.  I still have Logos 6 on my old Mid 2011 MacBook Air, but I haven't really ran that laptop in a while except to install a new SSD, partition it, and install all the old macOS X versions.  I haven't completed setting it up even.  I have basically made the transition to my new MacBook Pro 13" M1.  Maybe, I will have the resources to upgrade to the ARM native version after it is released.  I still use the mobile iOS version on my iPhone SE (3rd ed).

I forgot to mention in previous post that I am running Logos 6 Silver Academic.  I have browsed the Logos 9 upgrades but the Academic Bundles are no longer Bronze, Silver, Gold, and Premium.  What package would be a direct upgrade from Logos 6 Silver Academic?  I may decide to upgrade before the ARM native version is released since I am still deployed.

 What package would be a direct upgrade from Logos 6 Silver Academic? 

I don’t know the answer to that - as the details of Logos 6 Silver Academic are no longer available for comparison.

Are you aware you can upgrade to the free Logos 9 engine - https://www.logos.com/product/194909/logos-9-basic - and that this will not remove any of the existing functionality and resources you have?

Graham gave you the most important detail: The software engine is free. There is no reason for you not to update your software now. When FL comes out with major new versions (i.e. L10), the engine will be available immediately for 1) those who have a Faithlife Connect subscription and/or 2) those who purchase a new package. Several months following the engine is made available for everyone. This is one of the advantages of FL's software model. 

I am running Logos 6 Silver Academic.  I have browsed the Logos 9 upgrades but the Academic Bundles are no longer Bronze, Silver, Gold, and Premium.  What package would be a direct upgrade from Logos 6 Silver Academic?

Along with Graham, I can't give a comparison. However, for clarification: There is no need or reason to worry about a "direct upgrade." The fact that you have L6 Silver is really irrelevant to anything. What does matter is the resources you own in that package. When you go to make a new purchase, you will be given a discount based upon the individual resources you already own which happen to be in the new packages you are looking to purchase. The only reason someone who purchased "L6 Gold" might receive a greater discount than someone who purchased "L6 Silver" is if there were additional resources in L6 Gold that were not in L6 Silver in the new package.

FL shuffles the packages when they release new ones, so things are always changing. NOTE: when you purchase a new package, you ADD to what you already have... you never "lose" resources that you already purchased.

What package would be a direct upgrade from Logos 6 Silver Academic?

Adding to Graham and Alabama, the easy way is just to look at the dynamic pricing for the academic packages, relative to your L6 Silver Academic.  And then, see what's in them that you might want.

https://www.logos.com/search?query=logos%209%20academic&sortBy=Relevance&limit=60&page=1&ownership=all&geographicAvailability=all 

Keep in mind, they usually 're-package' the packages at the L10 intro likely this fall.  So, that's why to look at each for your needs.  Also, I don't think the L9 packages are on sale?  Normally, they'd go on sale, prior to the L10 packages going on sale.

I wasn't aware of the fact that you never "lose" resources you already purchased.  I assumed that with each upgrade I would have to repurchase everything as before since I am assumed it was a package deal.  The software engine being free; again I assumed that would turn off all my previous material until I purchased the entire package again and be technically a demo or trial ware situation.

I wasn't aware of the fact that you never "lose" resources you already purchased.  I assumed that with each upgrade I would have to repurchase everything as before since I am assumed it was a package deal.  The software engine being free; again I assumed that would turn off all my previous material until I purchased the entire package again and be technically a demo or trial ware situation.

Hopefully we’ve been able to clarify the situation and that it gives you more options to consider.

Thanks be to Jesus for Logos, yes wondering how one can become a beta tester (and also a C# developer for the software God willing.

Any dates yet for native release?