Logos and the MacBook Air M1, compared to a maxed out 2019 MacBook Pro 16"
Comments
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Florian Schoffke said:
When displaying a bible passage within proclaim everything is butter smooth in the "edit" view. But as soon as I enter "preview" view or "on air" the bible passage stutters a lot. Slide transitions are all smooth, only the bible passage feature doesn't seem to work smoothly.
Do others also experience this? Any setting I need to adjust?
Hi Florian - I presume you're using "On-Screen Bible," and I see the same thing on my MacBook Air. I don't use On-Screen Bible, just the plain old Bible slides, so I never though to test it in my video. I apologize for that.
My guess is that in spite of the movie "play" button in the preview window, Proclaim isn't generating a movie file for the slide ahead of time, but animates it on the fly during the presentation. The small version in Edit mode is much, much smaller than the projected version. If you resize the preview window in Edit more (drag the vertical bar to the left to make the preview bigger) you'll see it stutter there, too.
The preview size on my MacBook Air is 565x317, which is 179,105 pixels. If Proclaim's On-Air size is 1080p HD, that would be 1920x1080, or 2,073,600 pixels, which is 11.5 times bigger. 1280x720 is 921,600 pixels, more than 5 times bigger. Proclaim is already hitting the GPU hard, and adding an HD on-the-fly animation is more than Rosetta 2 can handle.
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Hi Gregory,
thank you for your reply, we use the on screen bible. The one which contains the animations and such
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Florian Schoffke said:
Hi Gregory,
thank you for your reply, we use the on screen bible. The one which contains the animations and such
I edited my answer, and you had already answered, so I'm pasting it in again to make sure you see it.
Hi Florian - I presume you're using "On-Screen Bible," and I see the same thing on my MacBook Air. I don't use On-Screen Bible, just the plain old Bible slides, so I never though to test it in my video. I apologize for that.
My guess is that in spite of the movie "play" button in the preview window, Proclaim isn't generating a movie file for the slide ahead of time, but animates it on the fly during the presentation. The small version in Edit mode is much, much smaller than the projected version. If you resize the preview window in Edit more (drag the vertical bar to the left to make the preview bigger) you'll see it stutter there, too.
The preview size on my MacBook Air is 565x317, which is 179,105 pixels. If Proclaim's On-Air size is 1080p HD, that would be 1920x1080, or 2,073,600 pixels, which is 11.5 times bigger. 1280x720 is 921,600 pixels, more than 5 times bigger. Proclaim is already hitting the GPU hard, and adding an HD on-the-fly animation is more than Rosetta 2 can handle.
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Thank you for your answer!
So I also tested that with a 13" Macbook Pro from 2015. With an i5 and 8GB Ram, so nothing special. And that one delivered also a smooth experience on the projector.
So would you assume that a M1 optimized version would improve that? Have you heard of any plans to develop that?
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Florian Schoffke said:
Thank you for your answer!
So I also tested that with a 13" Macbook Pro from 2015. With an i5 and 8GB Ram, so nothing special. And that one delivered also a smooth experience on the projector.
So would you assume that a M1 optimized version would improve that? Have you heard of any plans to develop that?
I do think the M1, or "universal" app, will solve the problem. Final Cut Pro is native to the M1, and there is no stutter. It drives the GPU harder than Proclaim does; the fans on my 16" MBP run all the time in Final Cut, and never in Proclaim.
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Florian Schoffke said:
Have you heard of any plans to develop that?
Sorry, forgot the second question. No one knows Faithlife's timeframe, ever. The first official word on Logos 9 came the day it was released. Faithlife will obviously create M1 versions of Logos, Proclaim, etc., but they won't even promise that until it's at least at the beta stage, and maybe not then. I did my video test partly because Faithlife's official answer is that Logos is not designed for the M1 processor, and you're on your own if you install it on one. I'm not complaining; it's better to not promise, than to make a promise and then not deliver. And, the issues with the Intel 11 chip are proof that tech advances can and do break things.
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For your info I did some testing of Logos and other Bible apps on my MBP M1. All are linked here.
https://community.logos.com/forums/p/196433/1140597.aspx#1140597
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Gregory Lawhorn said:
Faithlife's official answer is that Logos is not designed for the M1 processor, and you're on your own if you install it on one.
You are not "on your own"; support is provided for customers running Logos on M1 hardware.
(Edit: This doesn't mean that the program works flawlessly or that all problems can be fixed by contacting Support; for example, there are known performance issues with CEF-based features. We plan to fix them in a future update, but until then there are no known workarounds.)
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Gregory Lawhorn said:
Faithlife's official answer is that Logos is not designed for the M1 processor, and you're on your own if you install it on one.
You are not "on your own"; support is provided for customers running Logos on M1 hardware.
I stand corrected - thanks for posting that.
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Just FYI:
A couple of weeks ago I mentioned ordering a MacBook Pro 13" and trading in my MacBook Pro 16". The trade-in would have almost covered the cost of the 13", but in the end I decided to hang on to my 16", primarily because our Sunday streaming needs require more than 2 USB-C ports (power, mic, camera). I would have taken a $2,000 loss on the trade-in for a computer I've had six months, and just couldn't justify it. When the larger M1 MacBook Pro is released, I'll certainly be looking to eBay my current machine, but for now I'm keeping things as they are.0 -
Gregory Lawhorn said:
Just FYI: A couple of weeks ago I mentioned ordering a MacBook Pro 13" and trading in my MacBook Pro 16". The trade-in would have almost covered the cost of the 13", but in the end I decided to hang on to my 16", primarily because our Sunday streaming needs require more than 2 USB-C ports (power, mic, camera). I would have taken a $2,000 loss on the trade-in for a computer I've had six months, and just couldn't justify it. When the larger M1 MacBook Pro is released, I'll certainly be looking to eBay my current machine, but for now I'm keeping things as they are.
Brother, I had my 2014 i7 listed on Craigslist and it took about eight or 10 days for me to get a bite. Dude was ready to buy, but I backed out. At that juncture, the wife didn't even know I had bought the M1. I wasn't hiding it, I just literally hadn't thought of telling her; we lead two extremely busy lives that essentially intersect at 7 pm every day. LOL.
Anyway, she has a 2014 i5 Air and she wants my i7 Pro and my 16 year old is going to take her Air. My 18 year old is getting the student version of the M1 Air (128 GB). It all works out for the best.
My delivery date is the 9th through the 16th. Still no word.
Wilson Hines
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Here's some info on my MBP M1 for indexing.
16 GB/RAM; 1 TB SSD
9,025 Resources indexed.
Logos Timing
52:00 to download, but of course that depends almost wholly on my broadband, which is fair.
15:00 = 6%
30:00 = 15%
45:00 = 35%
60:00 = 58%
75:00 = 77%
90:00 = 91%
105:00 = 99% and been there for quite some time.
1hr:46min = Complete
Notes:
- Heat by the indexing seemed to ramp up between 91% and 97% and the fan seemed to be at the max at this point. 97%> was rather quiet.
- I haven't done anything scientific as far as having the app open and working with it on searches, opening workspaces, etc., and I may do that in a few days.
- I have done a couple simple searches such as "God" and "God so loves" and so forth. They were instant in response.
- Running the Passage Guide was just about instant. I don't even think it took a full second.
- I will note that scrolling on my Late 2013 MPB 15" i7 was always a little jerky and not very smooth. Scrolling on a page in Logos is now smooth as butter.
- I can discern that it is running on Rosetta 2. It just feels slower than native apps, but then again, I think if Logos came along tomorrow with a native Silicon app that it would not be as preppy as most; it's just such a huge system.
- Overall, I'm impressed with the M1 and I'm impressed with Logos on it.
Probably more to come later by me on this topic on Saturday...
Wilson Hines
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Wilson Hines said:
Running the Passage Guide was just about instant. I don't even think it took a full second.
What did you run it on?
I like to test by running a PSL on Gen-Rev.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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SineNomine said:Wilson Hines said:
Running the Passage Guide was just about instant. I don't even think it took a full second.
What did you run it on?
I like to test by running a PSL on Gen-Rev.
just John 15:1
Wilson Hines
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Wilson Hines said:
Here's some info on my MBP M1 for indexing.
16 GB/RAM; 1 TB SSD
9,025 Resources indexed.
1hr:46min = Complete
That's very similar to my results using the same M1 configuration: Indexing of the 9,751 resources took 1 hour and 42 minutes.
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Mike Prewitt said:Wilson Hines said:
Here's some info on my MBP M1 for indexing.
16 GB/RAM; 1 TB SSD
9,025 Resources indexed.
1hr:46min = Complete
That's very similar to my results using the same M1 configuration: Indexing of the 9,751 resources took 1 hour and 42 minutes.
I’m sure the difference lie in my Safari usage, although only three tabs and I quit Safari after 90% to “give it all she’s got, captain!”
Wilson Hines
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I can tell you quickly what is still slow on my MacBook 13" M1: Evernote. It's still a huge, brutish pig. Logos isn't far behind. Anybody else?
Wilson Hines
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Wilson Hines said:
I can tell you quickly what is still slow on my MacBook 13" M1: Evernote. It's still a huge, brutish pig. Logos isn't far behind. Anybody else?
i don’t use a Evernote, so I can’t say. I’m using both my 16” Pro and 13” Air daily, and Logos is generally indistinguishable. Three air falls behind on indexing.
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Gregory Lawhorn said:Wilson Hines said:
I can tell you quickly what is still slow on my MacBook 13" M1: Evernote. It's still a huge, brutish pig. Logos isn't far behind. Anybody else?
i don’t use a Evernote, so I can’t say. I’m using both my 16” Pro and 13” Air daily, and Logos is generally indistinguishable. Three air falls behind on indexing.
I think it would be a lot more fair on my part to say I'm EXTREMELY happy with the M1 MBP. It is literal lightening with almost everything I do. The touch pad is taking an inordinate amount of time for me to adjust to, my 2014 MBP was just setup differently. I tried to copy the settings from the old MBP but it's still not the same. I'll eventually get it.
Overall, I've had only two real software issues and the developers resolved them quickly. Even my Text Expander from 2014 still works.
Wilson Hines
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I'm a big Evernote and Apple user, but not on an M1 yet.
Evernote got a big (and somewhat controversial) redesign/update recently. What version number are you on?
I'm sticking with Evernote-Legacy for now, because the new version has gotten rid of tabs and the ability to chose your own fonts.
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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Ben said:
I'm a big Evernote and Apple user, but not on an M1 yet.
Evernote got a big (and somewhat controversial) redesign/update recently. What version number are you on?
I'm sticking with Evernote-Legacy for now, because the new version has gotten rid of tabs and the ability to chose your own fonts.
I'm on Evernote 10.5.7, current build. I hated it immediately. I've been on Evernote for about 10 years, maybe a scratch more. I usually don't like their "redesigns" they do every couple of years, but I absolutely hate this one. I wish I was on the "legacy" build. Controversial is an understatement. I wanted to go to something else. I tried DevonThink but I literally could not wrap my head around it. It is probably amazing, but I literally don't have the time to learn it.
Wilson Hines
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Yeah, I haven't found a good replacement either. And I'm deeply embedded in the Evernote system. I use tags extensively, it has all my archival dissertation research etc.
You can roll back officially to the legacy version, https://help.evernote.com/hc/en-us/articles/360052560314-Install-an-older-version-of-Evernote"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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Ordered my Mac Mini (16gb, 1 Tb) last night!! Won’t arrive for another 4 weeks. I also bought a 32” Dell curved monitor and Magic Keyboard. I’m going from a 2010 17” Macbook Pro to a Mac Mini. I tried running Logos this afternoon and it could complete a simple search in the passage guide.
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I got my MBA with 16gb RAM and 512gb SSD. It originally said the delivery window was between January 14-21. Then it shipped and it was updated to January 11, but it arrived January 6th. Gotta love Apple: they under-promise and over-deliver.
The laptop itself is great. Logos runs very well on it.
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Bill Anderson said:
Gotta love Apple: they under-promise and over-deliver.
The reason I don't use Apple. When the Mac came out (1984), they promised a true compiler rather than an interpreter. So I put off replacing my computer ... they didn't deliver for several years ... so I went PC.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Bill Anderson said:
Gotta love Apple: they under-promise and over-deliver.
The reason I don't use Apple. When the Mac came out (1984), they promised a true compiler rather than an interpreter. So I put off replacing my computer ... they didn't deliver for several years ... so I went PC.
That's a 27 year old excuse. Just saying. It's an amazingly different company now; in fact, I think it's safe to say there's not a company on the planet that existed then who isn't different now.
Wilson Hines
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Wilson Hines said:
That's a 27 year old excuse
More accurately, a 27 year old reason. There was a fork in the road and that is the reason I chose the branch I did. There are aspects of Apple that are better than their competitors; there are aspects that are not. I would never deny Steve Jobs' genius re: user interface.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Gregory Lawhorn said:Stephen Steele said:
Thanks for doing this - could we get a screenshot with the 'memory' tab visible?
Here you go. I currently have these apps running:
- Logos
- Proclaim
- Safari
- Launchbar
- Feedly
- Word
- OmniOutliner
- Mailplane
- Accordance (shh, don't tell anyone)
- Notability
- Activity Monitor
Here's the screenshot, sorted in order of memory use:
Hi Gregory, I very much appreciate all the time and effort you have taken to post comparisons and answer queries - very helpful indeed!
If you don't mind, I have a few questions. I have a MBP 13" M1 with 8GB RAM.
1) I understand from 2 of Apple's technical support guys that swap used is supposed to be 0, or minimal, but I see that yours is 1.46GB. I face similar issue too, and sometimes when I open more apps (Word, PPT, Onenote, Preview, Safari, Whatsapp, and perhaps a couple more, though none that are too heavy such as video editing etc.), the swap tends to get past 2GB. I am not well versed in tech matters, but I understand briefly that swap writes temporarily to SSD hence shortening its lifespan.
2) The Apple support guy also said it is highly abnormal for an app to consume more than 1GB of RAM. I said I have been monitoring intermittently, mostly Logos takes up about 1.3GB.
3) I generally do not face lag issues with Logos, unlike previous MBA 13" (2015 model) with 8GB RAM, though Logos sometimes crashes - averaging 3 times a week. Not sure if that's normal.
4) Safari tabs tend to crash, showing the message "This webpage was reloaded because it was using significant memory." Not sure if you faced similar issues?
As such, I am thinking if the matter is because of the inadequacy of the 8GB RAM, or other issues. Not sure if this matters, but I migrated from a Time Machine backup of my previous MBA with Intel chip.
Would appreciate any advice on these issues please, thank you so much in advance.
Cheers,
Ronnie
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Hi Ronnie, thanks for your kind words! I enjoyed the process. My plan is to pick up a full size MacBook Pro Mwhatever when it's released, and I'll probably do an update at that point.
Here are my thoughts:
Ronnie Sim said:1) I understand from 2 of Apple's technical support guys that swap used is supposed to be 0, or minimal, but I see that yours is 1.46GB. I face similar issue too, and sometimes when I open more apps (Word, PPT, Onenote, Preview, Safari, Whatsapp, and perhaps a couple more, though none that are too heavy such as video editing etc.), the swap tends to get past 2GB. I am not well versed in tech matters, but I understand briefly that swap writes temporarily to SSD hence shortening its lifespan.
Remember, Logos is running under Rosetta 2, and not as a native M1 application. Apple's recommendations for native apps probably don't mean much in the emulator. In addition, Logos is notoriously resource-heavy. It's not a sports car, it's a locomotive; it's powerful, but not quick.
Ronnie Sim said:2) The Apple support guy also said it is highly abnormal for an app to consume more than 1GB of RAM. I said I have been monitoring intermittently, mostly Logos takes up about 1.3GB.
High abnormal doesn't mean impossible. It doesn't seem that Logos should need all over those system resources; it's just handling text, right? But I think Logos is incredibly complex under the hood, and it's constantly thinking. That's why I've created custom guides with just the particular items I need at a specific point in my study process, and limit the number of resources I have open at any one time.
Ronnie Sim said:3) I generally do not face lag issues with Logos, unlike previous MBA 13" (2015 model) with 8GB RAM, though Logos sometimes crashes - averaging 3 times a week. Not sure if that's normal.
Logos has been pretty stable for me in recent weeks. I'm in the beta channel, because I like to live dangerously, and so sometimes there are crashes. I think Logos crashed for me last week, but it wasn't a repeatable issue.
Ronnie Sim said:4) Safari tabs tend to crash, showing the message "This webpage was reloaded because it was using significant memory." Not sure if you faced similar issues?
As such, I am thinking if the matter is because of the inadequacy of the 8GB RAM, or other issues.
I get the same message at times; I think it's more because of ads than the actual content. I've also got 8GB of RAM, and I wish I had upgraded to 16, but my Air gets limited (but constant) use. By that I mean that at least half of my sermon prep is on my Air, and virtually all of my email and web use, but Photoshop, Lightroom, streaming, audio/video editing (for sermon video), and so on are on my 16" MacBook Pro. During my typical sermon prep I have Logos and Scrivener open, and that's about it. I don't go into Word until I'm ready to put a PDF of my manuscript on SermonAudio.
Ronnie Sim said:Not sure if this matters, but I migrated from a Time Machine backup of my previous MBA with Intel chip.
I never migrate Time Machine backups when going to a new machine. I know that it's very convenient, but every time I've tried it I've had stability issues. I set up all of the software individually, and let iCloud bring my User folder (data) over. For what it's worth, I usually do a complete reinstall once a year to clear out the junk. I use iCloud, of course, and then Carbon Copy Cloner, and Time Machine as a last resort. I make sure that my backups are complete, erase the drive in Recovery mode, reinstall from the web, and then install my applications one by one. It takes a day, but I think it keeps my system running pretty smoothly.
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Thanks Gregory.
Just to clarify, when you "re-install", do you simply reboot in Recovery mode and re-install (without deleting any files or losing data), or do you erase the hard drive then reinstall OS?
I have not tried either. The first option sounds more convenient and faster, though the second sounds more comprehensive and cleaner?
Ronnie
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