Counseling guide working details for P & C
After taking a quick look to the Counseling guide in L9, I decided to Google more about counseling to expand my conceptual framework.
So I noticed that there is something like a continuum...
Christian Life Coaching: goals, score cards, key performance indicators, work breakdown structure, planning keeping in sight strengths and weaknesses, etc. Maybe working with a normal healthy individual to work in specific areas to achieve more of their potential.
Could this be related to stewardship areas, and basic obstacles can be identified and planned to be overcome:
Pastor G. Nunez gave an example of a stewardship topical list in a Christian TV program in 2011 (Aqui entre nos): [translated roughly]
Words of my mouth
assets
time
marital status: single, married
abilities / talents
gifts
family (raises children and loves wife)
local church: community / evangelism
physical body
personal salvation
Earth (environment etc.)
Deeper issues: traumas, mental health issues, unresolved conflict, etc. more related to therapy...
Some may be basic and not to hard to find, explore, and allow counseled person, to be aware, understand and help come up with a plan of action.
Then there are deeper issues, that definitively need professional help of a certified therapist, where supposedly deep unconscious stuff needs to be explored and dealt with.
Deliverance ministry: some stuff is not related to potential, and actualization of gifts, and talents, neither about deep buried unconscious stuff needing pro therapy, but are actually serious spiritual problems, that need deliverance ministry.
In your knowledge are there resources that clearly explain the relation between:
Christian life coaching: christian development according to pious dreams put by God in believers, that includes responsible stewardship.
Counseling from a Christian perspective, making sure that beliefs, orthopraxis, and the like are aligned with the Christian worldview.
Therapy (psycho, etc), that allows easy cases to be explored from different angles to gain insight and way forward for betterment. Also that explains when more medically oriented help is needed due to the severity of the mental health condition developing.
And delivery ministry, that many times proves effective when the above cannot deliver the results expected.
I found the following:
So besides other resources that come to your mind, it would be also good to read about your opinion on the topic and any experiences.
https://www.logos.com/product/186205/a-divine-revelation-of-deliverance
Comments
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Until/unless the Counseling includes spiritual friendship/spiritual direction/spiritual mentoring/healing prayer ministry, I personally will have little use for the counseling guide, nor do I know many for whom it will be of use. I do see the value of the Guide for a significant group of people - just not the people in my circles.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Hi MJ:
The ontology in the making looks real good:
But as you have mentioned it needs more sections to be added.
I see a lot of potential, it would be great if one could do a mind map index in canvas, with the particular topics that have grouped locations in resources that have important relevant information, and could somehow be linked with the counseling guide.
Some areas could be: (even mini ministries could be started to help the sheep with some areas as needed)
For P & C, deliverance ministry is a must!
Now some are more spiritual than others, but you will be surprised...
Peace and grace.
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Several categories you list, I consider inappropriate and would prefer to see Faithlife expand its features and resources in other directions.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Yes, but some of the categories tie in well with noet products.
If not mistaken I think you mentioned once that we cannot assume that others have had the same experiences that we've had.
Maybe some of the cats will be of use to some practitioners.
MJ, look at what I found in an old thread:
We cannot have a collection that addresses the occult without the venerable German author Kurt E. Koch (deceased; and note: he is not the living Swiss Roman Catholic born in 1950).
Kurt Koch was a pioneer regarding our modern understanding of occult and demon possession. What makes him so valuable is that he has both a belief/experience in the reality of the occult and demonic activity as well as a zeal to differentiate that from mental illness. We see the Bible itself making such differentiations (sickness, possession, sickness caused by Satan, etc). I encountered him while doing research on the occult for a youth counseling class while working with a teenager who was caught up in the occult. Here are some of Kurt Koch's (a Lutheran) books dealing with the occult (he has many others on different topics--second coming, speaking in tongues, missionary field experience, etc):
- Christian Counseling and Occultism: A Complete Guidebook to Occult Oppression and Deliverance
- Demonology Past and Present: Identifying and Overcoming Demonic Strongholds
- Occult ABC: Exposing Occult Practices and Ideologies
- Occult Bondage and Deliverance: Counseling the Occultly Oppressed
- Occult Practices and Beliefs: A Biblical Examination from A to Z
- The Lure of the Occult: 193 Case Studies of Occult Enslavement and Deliverance
Finding a complete listing is not easy. There may be other titles of his with the Occult theme that are different, or just rebranded. However, his insight was groundbreaking in its day, and still a benchmark/standard for serious study in occult today.
Kurt E. Koch studied Medicine as well as Theology, was a priest of the Lutheran Church in the state of Baden. He specialized in youth work, occult counseling, and evangelism (even being a missionary in Africa). (info taken from the German language Wikipedia entry)
I whole-heartily recommend his work.
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Hamilton Ramos said:
Yes, but some of the categories tie in well with noet products.
Noet has been discontinued ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ, take divorce coaching:
Divorce is a reality in many places. I think the Bible allows it if there has been fornication before the marriage.
Now in real life, many times, is not due to irreconcilable differences, some P & C believers have discovered that many times is the occultist work of a third person that has an ungodly agenda.
But thanks to God, and His Gifts granted by His Holy Spirit, many times in some P & C churches the scheme has been discovered and neutralized.
So from a bird's eye view:
People should learn proactive betterment for better marriages (communication, couple life planning, get together to negotiate the basics in key topics:
Money, religion, raising children, chores, expression of love (aural, visual, kinesthetic), love language, etc.
That should take 70% of problems to a minimum as far as avoiding drop that overflows the glass.
Then we have to look at certain trust issues, and patterns that have been happening in the families (apathy, coldness, infidelity, etc.) to see if traumas, or some other deep issues are at play, and become an obstacle for an abundant married life.
Last but not least, there has to be a watch in the Church for predators (spiritual), that want to mess up adequately functional marriages. Third persons coveting married partners, and trying to use occultism to break apart what God has united...
We need counselors / ministers with spiritual weapons to break spiritual wolves (unclean spirits) backs with the rod of the pastor (Holy Spirit gifts)... that is where delivery and spiritual warfare ministry kicks in.
I have Catholic friends that have started couples ministries after having problems themselves, by doing some of the earlier above have been successful into averting divorces.
They do understand that sometimes a deeper spiritual issue is involved, and the help of Charismatics in their tradition has been of great help.
In the end, we want to be faithful to the Word of God: what God united, men should not separate.
With all that said, sometimes, people do not want to be helped (eg abuser in a relation), and victims cannot continue in such predicament.
I guess is best to separate and not divorce, but then you deny the chance of renewing life. If the person yoked unequally at the beginning and was part of the problem, divorce may be granted... See why is important to educate persons from childhood, so that they do not find themselves unequally yoked at marriage where problems can come up that may cause divorce.
Peace and grace.
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Renamed, not discontinued:
I have many noet books, that tie in neatly with some of the categories.
Note also that the categories were picked from a random article on counseling, but are wide in scope, to show the potential that counseling has.
All I am saying is that as the Lutheran priest mentioned, it seems that mental health is separate from the works of darkness in occultism, and thus they should be dealt with differently.
More tools to help men of God into understanding and being able to ascertain the difference are welcome, I think that counseling guide can be one of those tools.
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Noet software has been discontinued. The resources are on Faithlife Ebooks i.e. https://general.ebooks.faithlife.com/
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Correct, they changed the name, but the resources that were available in noet are still available, and many tie in neatly with some categories.
I came in contact with more charismatic version of the faith through martial arts, so I am into a high view of sports ministry.
Financial well being in modern times can be tied to cooperative (self organized) movement, and food security could be facilitated through Aquaponic initiatives.
Moral and ethical governance is important to me, I have witnessed the nefastous effect amorality has in secular biz ops. Not a nice thing, thank God we did not move away from Unions and were able to counter some of the worst stuff (with the aid of God of course, but using such means).
The list goes on, God moves in marvelous ways, humans cannot box God at all, He moves and acts as He pleases.
Happy new year.
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Interesting quote:
"Whether we think about it or not, whether it’s in our job title or not, all of us engage in counseling. A friend shares a problem with us and asks for advice. A younger Christian we’re mentoring asks us for counsel on what he should do with his life. A married friend needs encouragement because of difficulties in her marriage. A church member confesses that he struggles with an addictive behavior. Your teenage daughter is concerned about being accepted at school. For better or worse, accurate or inaccurate, biblical or secular, what you say next is “counseling.”"
Lawrence, M. (2010). Biblical Theology in the Life of the Church: A Guide for Ministry (p. 202). Wheaton, IL: Crossway.
Never saw the topic in such way, but as you can see it encompasses many different themes.
The book goes on to an interesting conclusion:
"... So our problem is not fundamentally behavioral, though it will show itself in our behavior. Our problem is not fundamentally mental, though it will show itself in our thinking. Our problem is fundamentally religious. Our problem is idolatry—disordered worship."
Lawrence, M. (2010). Biblical Theology in the Life of the Church: A Guide for Ministry (p. 203). Wheaton, IL: Crossway.
Note that they may be up to something, and notice that the book itself is not about counseling.
Modern idolatry: Nationalism, sports, capitalism, politics, consumerism, chic women, etc. Was it Calvin that said that the "human heart is but a factory of idols" [rough paraphrase from flawed memory].
See my liked specialty is Systematic Theology, but I see it more inclusive than usual, to me it must include Christian life, ethics, moral theology, social teaching, and even practical theology and ministry.
So being curious about where does counseling fit in ST, found the above book.
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lex orandi lex credendi from very early Christianity.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
lex orandi lex credendi from very early Christianity.
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Deliverance is biblical, commanded and is VASTLY under-used by the body of Christ. It is the key to many problems. Logos needs to include deliverance as a topic.
Some authors and
resources:
John Eckhardt- Deliverance and Spiritual Warfare Manual
- More in Logos. Click Eckhardt's name above.
Frank & Ida Mae Hammonds
- Pigs in the Parlor
Derek Prince
Kathryn Kuhlman
Win Worley
One reason deliverance is so under-valued is that it is not a highly esteemed ministry like homilectics and hermeneutics, but rather is a down-and-dirty ministry among the lowly in brokeness and bondage. That's just human-- to want respect. Another reason is that some are not yet confident in their authority and power in Christ. Or kinda just scared of the demonic. My point is not to put anyone down, but rather to show that some of us actually do this ministry and it would be great if Logos would have this topic covered.
I hope you find the authors and resources helpful.
Blessings!0 -
Thanks Scott for your input.
You mention the demonic, any particular resources you consider that deal with the topic clearly, accurately, and Biblically?
I agree with you that the topic seems to be low profile, but maybe some traditions do not have experience with it.
Now, just for the records, just because a P&C ministry does some form of deliverance, does not mean they are in the OK.
I have seen P & C ministers fall to the ground showing signs of ungodly spirit influence, when Holiness P. ministers started to pray. So it seems they were not actually ok.
At other times I have heard of ministers that start a conversation with the ungodly influence, when in the Bible Jesus ordered them to "shut up" and leave.
By the way, what is your take on generational problems, some say that ungodly influences (maybe demonic) may be at work, others try to take a more western naturalistic view:
Thanks ahead of time for your input.
Peace and grace.
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I think those ministers and resources are where I would start. Google them. Here is a good site to explore with lots of content and a shop.
Generational sins are real and biblical. But God, in His love and grace, can deliver us from them.
Yes, as noted talking with ungodly spirits is unnecessary. We can talk to the Holy Spirit who will not lie to us or seduce us. Be commanding and decisive with ungodly spirits. Few questions; maybe name and number, then OUT-- in Jesus' name of course!
As to why one falls after ministry of any kind, we would have to look at each case by case.0 -
Thanks for the input Scott.
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I have been trying to use some of the counseling resources in my own full time practice in professional counseling (LISW/LCSW). Be clear some books about talking to people from a predigested data base or a few books isn't equivalent to a master level education, 2 years of supervised practice beyond degree, and a national certified test. At best Logos's material here is useful as a resource to understand mental health issue and reference material. At this point it's not clear to me that FL has even taken the time to consult with experts in the field on the counseling resources beyond the books fed into the search engine. Counseling resources of Logos is a good general tool for information....not an AI that gives clinical advice.
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Rene:
Valid remarks. Many wrestle with: where is the boundary to Christian counseling? When should cases be referred to pros? and the like.
Problem is that as someone noted, not all is about mental health. Like someone mentioned in a book: mental health does not make pigs jump off a cliff...
The topic is very important one, because there are important Christian worldview issues involved:
Take the gender identity situation. Some resource in Logos mentioned that research showed that when a gland in the brain does not develop as should, such problems ensue. (maybe that is why some say "born this way").
Should that be taken as a sickness issue? what is the probable cause of the gland's underdevelopment? can we affect such? how?
Now I have heard stories of persons with gender identity problems, that in P & C contexts, have been cured of such problem (they through the grace of God knew something was not right)... they have allegedly felt a presence depart them (maybe unclean spirit), and who knows maybe the gland was set to normal by God.
All the mental health counseling, advice, that you could try to give would be useless, unless God Himself sets the problem straight.
So part of the Christian worldview comes into the limelight, is Jesus Christ alive and well? (He is the miracle worker), and does He show up where 2 or more believers are gathered worshipping in Spirit and truth, to continue His good works?
The evidence points to the affirmative (many books in FL that study modern day miracles), so just because particular groups try to deny God's reality (He is naturally supernatural, and as we are the ones living in a broken region of His Kingdom, He can come and set things straight for the love of His elect ones), does not mean that their theological construct jibes with His reality (which is Ultimate).
Interesting topic, much needs to be further researched. Peace and grace.
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MJ. Smith said:
Until/unless the Counseling includes spiritual friendship/spiritual direction/spiritual mentoring/healing prayer ministry, I personally will have little use for the counseling guide
Agreed. I think the Counseling Guide has potential but I also suspect that it will go the way of the Theology Guide with its over-reliance on the Lexham Survey of Theology since it's so narrowly conceived. Right now it's another guide I don't use and don't see myself using in the near future.
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Hi KIyah:
I know you did not write to me, but I just want to comment that there may be some useful information in some counseling resources.
Maybe another way to get to that info is by the Dave Moser method:
https://blog.logos.com/how-do-you-use-logos-dave-moser/
I do think spiritual directors may find some useful info that aids in their tasks.
Peace and grace.
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Hamilton Ramos said:
Hi KIyah:
I know you did not write to me, but I just want to comment that there may be some useful information in some counseling resources.
Maybe another way to get to that info is by the Dave Moser method:
https://blog.logos.com/how-do-you-use-logos-dave-moser/
I do think spiritual directors may find some useful info that aids in their tasks.
Peace and grace.
Actually, the advent of the Counseling guide is what prompted me to create a "Pastoral Care and Counseling" collection. Here's the rule I used:
counseling,trauma,tag:(counseling,pastoralcare,psychology),subject:(grief,bereavement,psychology,counseling,chaplain,crisis,trauma,addiction,"mental health")
I probably need to create a collection specifically focused on Spiritual Direction though.
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Hamilton Ramos said:
Rene:
Valid remarks. Many wrestle with: where is the boundary to Christian counseling? When should cases be referred to pros? and the like.
Problem is that as someone noted, not all is about mental health. Like someone mentioned in a book: mental health does not make pigs jump off a cliff...
The topic is very important one, because there are important Christian worldview issues involved:
Take the gender identity situation. Some resource in Logos mentioned that research showed that when a gland in the brain does not develop as should, such problems ensue. (maybe that is why some say "born this way").
Should that be taken as a sickness issue? what is the probable cause of the gland's underdevelopment? can we affect such? how?
Now I have heard stories of persons with gender identity problems, that in P & C contexts, have been cured of such problem (they through the grace of God knew something was not right)... they have allegedly felt a presence depart them (maybe unclean spirit), and who knows maybe the gland was set to normal by God.
All the mental health counseling, advice, that you could try to give would be useless, unless God Himself sets the problem straight.
So part of the Christian worldview comes into the limelight, is Jesus Christ alive and well? (He is the miracle worker), and does He show up where 2 or more believers are gathered worshipping in Spirit and truth, to continue His good works?
The evidence points to the affirmative (many books in FL that study modern day miracles), so just because particular groups try to deny God's reality (He is naturally supernatural, and as we are the ones living in a broken region of His Kingdom, He can come and set things straight for the love of His elect ones), does not mean that their theological construct jibes with His reality (which is Ultimate).
Interesting topic, much needs to be further researched. Peace and grace.
Well a common boundary from my profession is when I don't know what I'm doing is a time to refer out. While a bit vague such a principle helps to protect the client....which don't seem to be an important topic in the counseling search engine. For example if I am not familiar with the standard understanding of gender and transgender issues as outlined in ethical/scientific guidelines of my discipline then a referral out is standard. In terms of a counselor deciding if a client's gland is underdeveloped I'm not real sure how one goes about determining such a thing with or without prayer...or the use of a general encyclopedia entry using therapy terms 30-40 years out of date. Certainly God, faith, and spirituality has a place in helping individuals heal from their wounds of whatever origin. Certainly the counseling resource can be helpful as a general and severely limited option to use in the therapy process. Each of us has to stay in our proper lanes determined by our training, education, intellectual discipline, ethical guidelines, and abilities in order to protect the wounded individuals who walk through our door. Otherwise its about serving Mammon instead of serving God.
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Rene Atchley said:
Each of us has to stay in our proper lanes determined by our training, education, intellectual discipline, ethical guidelines, and abilities in order to protect the wounded individuals who walk through our door.
Indeed. Using the Counseling Guide will no more make someone into a qualified counselor than the Theology Guide will make one into a capable theologian.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Rene Atchley said:
Certainly God, faith, and spirituality has a place in helping individuals heal from their wounds of whatever origin. Certainly the counseling resource can be helpful as a general and severely limited option to use in the therapy process. Each of us has to stay in our proper lanes determined by our training, education, intellectual discipline, ethical guidelines, and abilities in order to protect the wounded individuals who walk through our door. Otherwise its about serving Mammon instead of serving God.
So we can agree that there is a perceived or real need for counseling. I would imagine that there are some harmless advice that can be done by referring to the Bible for certain issues.
Then the mental health problems, which are the ones that can be problematic (remember the exorcism movie in which the Catholic Father was found guilty) supposedly in the movie the patient was deemed to require professional mental health treatment.
Now probably mature P & C believers can offer help in the cases where spiritual problems could have a part.
So the question is old: are we our brother's keeper? should we try to get some formal training in counseling to try to help persons?
Is there a system parallel to EMS? first aid first responders (at scene), EMT (limited intervention), Paramedics (more intricate intervention), Nurses, Doctors, and Specialist Doctors for definitive treatment.
A similar structure for mental health would seem advisable, but how about spiritual problems? what if medical treatment does not cause any effect, and the problem persist?
Are P & C mature believers morally required to help if asked to? how about those that are social support for the person, should they have the ethical maturity to understand that some conditions require Holy Spirit involvement, and usually found in some forms of P & C ministry?
Are there legit P & C spiritual ministries (delivery, spiritual warfare, etc), and should others refer to them when appropriate? i.e. not just serving Mammon ones.
Lots of questions, few answers from the persons involved in such endeavors. If you are a therapist or counselor, what should be your grade of responsibility for not referring to a spiritual minister when the case requires so?
An old story: a woman approaches a minister in the street (recognized by the Bible he was carrying and the way dressed), and asks him to talk to her about Christ.
Since the woman was a known prostitute in the area, the minister did not actually took the time (their regulations called for a female believer companion to be there and other procedural requirements), and kind of dismissed her telling her he would be back to do talk to her about Christ.
The minister came back with full ministry support, and ready to try to help the woman, only to find out that she had committed suicide.
Was she having a mental health episode, due to her lifestyle stress and situation? or was some form of spiritual malign influence attacking her?
Should he have reacted differently and try to help the woman right away? Was he negligent through lack of preparedness for such an episode?
Should believers in general get some basic information to try to help in dire situations, to prevent unwanted results?
Can harmless advice be given in line with Good Samaritan laws?
Question remains: are we our brother's keepers, and if so what does that entail?
The topic is very interesting, but no clear guidance is given to believers, unless the leaders are much into Care and believe in the ministry duty of all believers.
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Kiyah said:
Here's the rule I used:
counseling,trauma,tag:(counseling,pastoralcare,psychology),subject:(grief,bereavement,psychology,counseling,chaplain,crisis,trauma,addiction,"mental health")
The rule seems good to me, thanks for sharing, and looks more including than the one found in:
https://www.morethancake.org/archives/4864
Which looks like:
MyTag: Counseling
Collection: Counseling
Criteria: mytag:counseling OR subject:(counseling, psychology) OR title:(counseling, psychology)
I do not think I have come across a Spiritual Direction collection. My unscientific way would be just to type "spiritual direction".
There seems to be many resources on the topic. An interesting one:
I wonder what is the relation between spiritual care and mental health care.
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SineNomine said:
Indeed. Using the Counseling Guide will no more make someone into a qualified counselor than the Theology Guide will make one into a capable theologian.
Conversely, does this mean that a mental health practitioner is disqualified from being a spiritual care provider?
Excerpt from L9:
Desegregation of the soul. The shepherding ministry of the church has historically drawn on both spiritual and psychological resources for the care of souls. Within the past century, these have become compartmentalized, and psychological resources have been largely separated out from the church’s ministry. Psychological care is considered the domain of professional mental health practitioners and spiritual care the domain of professional clergy. Though there can be wisdom in specialization, we believe that the segregation evident today is both unbiblical and neglectful of the history of soul care within the church. Christian providers of psychological care and Christian providers of spiritual care must rejoin their efforts and recognize their joint responsibility for a more holistic care of the soul (as a “psychospiritual whole”; see Benner 1998). Of course, our awareness of the great traditions of pastoral care does not in and of itself qualify us to be practitioners, but this awareness is a starting point for integration.
Such an integrative approach to soul care would be rooted in a biblical understanding of the nature of the soul. Benner argues convincingly for a view of the soul rooted in the theology, anthropology and psychology of Scripture, encompassing “all of our personhood”:
The soul is the meeting point of the psychological and the spiritual. This means that soul care that draws on both the best insights of modern therapeutic psychology as well as the historic Christian approaches to the care and cure of persons will never again be able to accept the artificial distinction of the psychological and spiritual. A proper understanding of the soul reunites the psychological and the spiritual and directs the activities of those who care for the souls of others in such a way that their care touches the deepest levels of people’s inner lives. (1998, p. 62)
McRay, B. W., Yarhouse, M. A., & Butman, R. E. (2016). Modern Psychopathologies: A Comprehensive Christian Appraisal (Second Edition, pp. 26–27). Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic: An Imprint of InterVarsity Press.
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Doing a bit more research in some of the counseling issues, some good stuff has come up:
Excerpt from L9:
4
Deliverance as Part of the Therapeutic Process
David W. Appleby
After over thirty years and more than one thousand cases, I have learned these truisms about deliverance as part of the therapeutic process:
• Demonization is much more common than most Christian professionals believe, but it is not so frequent that every problem can be ascribed to it.
• Salvation, by itself, does not expel any demons present, but it does change ownership and requires that any demons obey when confronted by the new owner (Christ).
• Demonic entities will lie, hide, confound and try to confuse anyone doing deliverance, but they are bound to respond truthfully when confronted in the name of Jesus Christ.
• Assessment is not so much a search for symptoms as it is a review of the client’s life experience—and whether that experience may have exposed the client to demons.
• Assessment must always consider the overlapping possibility of sin, psychopathology and medical disease that may be at work in the problem and in aftercare.
• Deliverance should be considered when all other treatments have limited or no impact.
Appleby, D. W. (2013). Deliverance as Part of the Therapeutic Process. In Transformative encounters: the intervention of god in christian counseling and pastoral care (p. 77). Westmont, IL: IVP Academic.
There are nice resources in the web that can help get ideas for more research in L9:
https://www.biblicalcounselingcoalition.org/browse-by-topic/
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Hamilton Ramos said:SineNomine said:
Indeed. Using the Counseling Guide will no more make someone into a qualified counselor than the Theology Guide will make one into a capable theologian.
Conversely, does this mean that a mental health practitioner is disqualified from being a spiritual care provider?
I wrote what I wrote and I meant only what I wrote.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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This whole thread has clearly shown the problem(s) with using a theological doorway to understand therapeutic consideration by non licensed individuals. I wonder if FL legal department has taken into account would be "professionals" doing therapy based on a few articles in a half baked app...things that makes me go Hmmmm.
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SineNomine said:
I wrote what I wrote and I meant only what I wrote.
I kind of get your point, education can be important, but remember that education without Holy Spirit guidance can be disastrous.
Saint Peter did not go to college, do you dismiss his ministry?
How about Jesus?
Would you receive counsel from any of them two or would you rather receive counsel from a Jungian approach trained modern practitioner based on who knows what assumptions / preconceptions [maybe naturalism, and materialism]?
What was the Bible talking about in the following verse:
1Co 14:25 the secret things of his heart become evident, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God, proclaiming, "God is truly among you!"
Many times counselors have to deal with symptoms of a more serious underlying condition (spiritual), and just dealing with symptoms will not solve the root cause of the problem.
Do most humans have "secret things of their hearts"? and if so, how is one to access such so that one can get the point of view from God to see what can be done by humans, and what can be done only by God?
Interesting topic, and I am not trying to be polemic, just looking at the topic from another angle and suggesting further research for reflection.
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Rene Atchley said:
would be "professionals" doing therapy based on a few articles in a half baked app.
So Pastors sought for counsel need to be psychiatrists?
How many of the following particular issues are actually "mental health" related?
https://www.logos.com/product/45345/hope-for-the-heart-biblical-counseling-library
I am trying to understand what is the proper procedure for Pastors that want to help persons is in accordance to some of the other views in the thread such as yours.
According to one article:
- Marital infidelity. Many pastors lamented the horrendous damage done to marriages and families when one or more of the spouses are not faithful.
- Divorce. Obviously, the first two are related. A number of pastors said that those who come to them with divorce on their minds usually have their minds made up. Counseling is either a formality or an appeasement toward a favorable divorce settlement.
- Sexual and physical abuse. Some pastors said this issue was the fastest-growing topic in counseling. They don’t think sexual and physical abuse is new; more victims are now willing to come forward.
- Mental health issues. Depression and anxiety were mentioned frequently, but others were noted such as schizophrenia and borderline personality disorder.
- Teen sexual issues. More teens are seeking help with issues of sexual identity, sexual pressure, and sexually transmitted diseases.
- Addiction. Though alcoholism is still very much an issue, a number of pastors spoke of other addictions such as heroin and other opioids.
- Church conflict. Church fights lead many members to counseling. Lack of church unity has far-reaching consequences.
- Loss of a child. This issue is a nightmare for the parents, and often requires long-term counseling. A number of pastors expressed willingness to do this counseling for the longer-term than many of the other issues.
- Death of a loved one. This category would include the loss of all other loved ones beyond the death of a child.
- Lack of forgiveness; bitterness. I had my expectations of what issues would arise before I put the question before pastors. This one surprised me, though it probably should have been expected. I guess I didn’t expect those who were bitter to seek counseling. Apparently, I was wrong.
https://churchanswers.com/blog/the-ten-most-challenging-counseling-issues-pastors-face/
Mental health is one sub category. Are you. trying to say that all should be dealt with from the mental health point of view?
How can Pastors trying to help persons (in very good faith), can be helped to be more effective at giving sound advice (Bible jibing, IAW the nature and character of God, and not violating standards of care)?
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Rene:
You have piqued my curiosity about the topic of counseling. Since you are a trained practitioner or in training can you answer some questions for me?
How much of your methodology respond to Carl Jung's principles?
How true can the following be with respect to Mr. Jung?:
I think I read in some resource that most modern methodology is of a Jungian lean, if so can you clarify to us what is the relation of Jung's ideology to occultism?
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While the topic has some interest this thread seems little more than just a discussion topic fully unrelated to anything to do with Logos Counseling app. Again brings me back to one of the problems unleashing a theological hominization of historically complex and diverse topics that are hundred(s) or thousands of years old.
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Hamilton Ramos said:
How much of your methodology respond to Carl Jung's principles?
How true can the following be with respect to Mr. Jung?:
I think I read in some resource that most modern methodology is of a Jungian lean, if so can you clarify to us what is the relation of Jung's ideology to occultism?
Jung is critical to the understanding of religious symbolism, mythology, ritual, perennial philosophy etc. in the same way that Durkheim and Otto are essential. But given the current catalogue, I believe it is safe to say that despite user requests Faithlife considers religious studies outside their scope and therefore outside the scope of the forums.
OT: to the best of my knowledge, Jungian psychology is a specialty not a general practice. I remember that you and I have a different understanding of the meaning of the English word "occult". If you read Jung (yes, I own many of his works), his interest is in the symbolism of the mind which is employed in religion, the occult, perennial philosophy, et. al.Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Yes MJ:
I bought some books from ex noet about Jung's writings to check what is about. From other interesting resources in Logos I kind of spot that individualism / individualization is a concept Jung brought to psychology and that seems to be problematic for some:
I suppose some of the stuff that Jung brought to psychology may have some application, I'll have to see.
Now as you mention not all counseling / therapy streams are following Jung, so one homework is to check what other approaches there are, and what they are about. Maybe they offer better tools to get the job done.
I found two more interesting resources that seem to have something interesting to say:
https://www.logos.com/product/173502/living-biblically-ten-guides-for-fulfillment-and-happiness
As usual, if it was not for robust dialogue that bounces ideas off in the forums, I would probably not have found such.
Peace and grace.
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First someone essentially says the
CG is useless, then says the CG is all this thread is about. No, this thread is about the relation between P&C ministry and the CG. P&C's are known for supernatural ministry (that includes deliverance). Resources, topic inclusion, etc. are among the things we are talking about from a P&C perspective. All are welcome to participate, but let's not lose sight of the fact that this thread is directed at P&C's.
In this thread, one insinuates that their highly educated livelihood is the way, thus making the CG essentially useless. Another points out that God gave uneducated fishermen the keys to ministry, including deliverance. Psst! The key is the Holy Spirit, not education. Thus, the CG is perfectly helpful as a supplementary tool to aid anyone moving in the ministry of the Holy Spirit.
When someone comes to you with a hurt or problem, you don't say, "What's your insurance? We need to call a psyciatrist". No, You look them in the eye and, first, love them and comfort them and speak truth and pray with them. That is counsel. That is ministry. Considering that, the CG is indeed useful to the everyday Christian. I see the CG as a tool that's going to make the body of Christ more effective in responding to issues. The CG simply gives us quicker access to resources.
Lastly, in my time, I've seen Spirit-filled children, college students, and barely literate Africans minister and counsel more effectively than many professional counselors. That, my friends,is something that makes me go, Hmmm...
I'm thankful for the CG and for all of you. I hope Logos will continue to expand it's deliverance resources and include that as a topic in the CG.
'Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.' (2 Corinthians 3:17, NIV)0 -
Rene Atchley said:
fully unrelated to anything to do with Logos Counseling app.
Your interpretation, I think the counseling module in Logos is a good step forward in the right direction, but what is more important is to develop critical thinking in the users of the same so they can do good instead of harm in their effort to help sheep.
Even though you mentioned very old resources, with obsolete information, I think there are some that may seem to have a timeless message, that gets to the heart of the matter. One such is:
In one aspect of the conversation you are correct: it is important for people to study well what type of approach one chooses to base therapy, and counseling, because any tainted with occultism has nothing to do with tending the true sheep of God.
And to be clear, a neat short definition of occultism:
THE TERM OCCULT IS BASED ON the Latin word occultus, meaning that which is hidden from view or covered up. Most commonly the term is applied to attempts to gain secret or forbidden information or achieve spiritual powers and control through supernatural means such as astrology, fortune telling, psychics, spiritism, kabbalah, parapsychology, witchcraft, magick, paganism, and satanism. From a christian perspective, occult describes any attempt to gain supernatural knowledge or power apart from the God of the bible.
Hindson, E., & Caner, E. (2008). The popular encyclopedia of apologetics: surveying the evidence for the truth of christianity. Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers.
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Scott said:
First someone essentially says the
CG is useless, then says the CG is all this thread is about. No, this thread is about the relation between P&C ministry and the CG. P&C's are known for supernatural ministry (that includes deliverance). Resources, topic inclusion, etc. are among the things we are talking about from a P&C perspective. All are welcome to participate, but let's not lose sight of the fact that this thread is directed at P&C's.
In this thread, one insinuates that their highly educated livelihood is the way, thus making the CG essentially useless. Another points out that God gave uneducated fishermen the keys to ministry, including deliverance. Psst! The key is the Holy Spirit, not education. Thus, the CG is perfectly helpful as a supplementary tool to aid anyone moving in the ministry of the Holy Spirit.
When someone comes to you with a hurt or problem, you don't say, "What's your insurance? We need to call a psyciatrist". No, You look them in the eye and, first, love them and comfort them and speak truth and pray with them. That is counsel. That is ministry. Considering that, the CG is indeed useful to the everyday Christian. I see the CG as a tool that's going to make the body of Christ more effective in responding to issues. The CG simply gives us quicker access to resources.
Lastly, in my time, I've seen Spirit-filled children, college students, and barely literate Africans minister and counsel more effectively than many professional counselors. That, my friends,is something that makes me go, Hmmm...
I'm thankful for the CG and for all of you. I hope Logos will continue to expand it's deliverance resources and include that as a topic in the CG.
'Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.' (2 Corinthians 3:17, NIV)Amen brother, praise the Lord. Crystal clear.
Peace and grace.
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A very good collection to get informed about the counseling details:
https://www.logos.com/product/192068/christian-association-for-psychological-studies
I wonder if a resource like the Catholic Topical Index can be created taking the info in the above series and other similar as base:
"Counseling topical index" where one could look to the 500 most important keywords and see where in the books the info is.
Is there a "Catholic Topical Index" template anywhere? can one be made using Personal book builder?
Peace and grace.
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Rene Atchley said:
This whole thread has clearly shown the problem(s) with using a theological doorway to understand therapeutic consideration by non licensed individuals.
I wonder if there's a Logos resource that discusses that... [;)]
Rene Atchley said:I wonder if FL legal department has taken into account would be "professionals" doing therapy based on a few articles in a half baked app...things that makes me go Hmmmm.
I haven't noticed any legally dubious claims on the part of Faithlife with regard to counselling/therapy. As such, were I them, I would perhaps be more concerned about the moral/ethical issues. But then, Google will let you find any number of websites with resources that can get non-licensed people into the same sorts of problems... it's complicated.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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MJ. Smith said:
But given the current catalogue, I believe it is safe to say that despite user requests Faithlife considers religious studies outside their scope and therefore outside the scope of the forums.
Not disagreeing, but (as I imagine you are aware) they do carry "Religious Studies" works, such as many of those listed here: https://general.ebooks.faithlife.com/search?context=product&sortBy=Bestselling&limit=60&page=1&filters=status-live_Status%2Bgenre-religion_Genre&ownership=all&geographicAvailability=all
(For clarity, I am using the term "religious studies" to mean "sociology of religion", with both of the terms "sociology" and "religion" understood broadly.)
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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