Counseling guide working details for P & C

Hi MJ:

The ontology in the making looks real good:

https://community.logos.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Components.PostAttachments/00.01.12.99.13/hierarchy_2D00_ct_2D00_cleaned.htm

But as you have mentioned it needs more sections to be added.

I see a lot of potential, it would be great if one could do a mind map index in canvas, with the particular topics that have grouped locations in resources that have important relevant information, and could somehow be linked with the counseling guide.

Some areas could be: (even mini ministries could be started to help the sheep with some areas as needed)

For P & C, deliverance ministry is a must!

Now some are more spiritual than others, but you will be surprised...

https://www.amazon.com/Train-Something-Greater-Athletes-Spiritual-ebook/dp/B0081TIGQM/ref=sr_1_35?dchild=1&keywords=train+for+crossfit&qid=1609429548&s=digital-text&sr=1-35

Peace and grace.

Yes, but some of the categories tie in well with noet products.

If not mistaken I think you mentioned once that we cannot assume that others have had the same experiences that we've had.

Maybe some of the cats will be of use to some practitioners.

MJ, look at what I found in an old thread:

We cannot have a collection that addresses the occult without the venerable German author Kurt E. Koch (deceased; and note: he is not the living Swiss Roman Catholic born in 1950).

Kurt Koch was a pioneer regarding our modern understanding of occult and demon possession.  What makes him so valuable is that he has both a belief/experience in the reality of the occult and demonic activity as well as a zeal to differentiate that from mental illness.  We see the Bible itself making such differentiations (sickness, possession, sickness caused by Satan, etc).  I encountered him while doing research on the occult for a youth counseling class while working with a teenager who was caught up in the occult.  Here are some of Kurt Koch's (a Lutheran) books dealing with the occult (he has many others on different topics--second coming, speaking in tongues, missionary field experience, etc):

1. Christian Counseling and Occultism: A Complete Guidebook to Occult Oppression and Deliverance
2. Demonology Past and Present: Identifying and Overcoming Demonic Strongholds
3. Occult ABC: Exposing Occult Practices and Ideologies
4. Occult Bondage and Deliverance: Counseling the Occultly Oppressed
5. Occult Practices and Beliefs: A Biblical Examination from A to Z
6. The Lure of the Occult: 193 Case Studies of Occult Enslavement and Deliverance

Finding a complete listing is not easy.  There may be other titles of his with the Occult theme that are different, or just rebranded.  However, his insight was groundbreaking in its day, and still a benchmark/standard for serious study in occult today.

Kurt E. Koch studied Medicine as well as Theology, was a priest of the Lutheran Church in the state of Baden.  He specialized in youth work, occult counseling, and evangelism (even being a missionary in Africa).  (info taken from the German language Wikipedia entry)

I whole-heartily recommend his work.

MJ, take divorce coaching:

Divorce is a reality in many places. I think the Bible allows it if there has been fornication before the marriage.

Now in real life, many times, is not due to irreconcilable differences, some P & C believers have discovered that many times is the occultist work of a third person that has an ungodly agenda.

But thanks to God, and His Gifts granted by His Holy Spirit, many times in some P & C churches the scheme has been discovered and neutralized.

So from a bird's eye view:

People should learn proactive betterment for better marriages (communication, couple life planning, get together to negotiate the basics in key topics:

Money, religion, raising children, chores, expression of love (aural, visual, kinesthetic), love language, etc.

That should take 70% of problems to a minimum as far as avoiding drop that overflows the glass.

Then we have to look at certain trust issues, and patterns that have been happening in the families  (apathy, coldness, infidelity, etc.) to see if traumas, or some other deep issues are at play, and become an obstacle for an abundant married life.

Last but not least, there has to be a watch in the Church for predators (spiritual), that want to mess up adequately functional marriages. Third persons coveting married partners, and trying to use occultism to break apart what God has united...

We need counselors / ministers with spiritual weapons to break spiritual wolves (unclean spirits) backs with the rod of the pastor (Holy Spirit gifts)... that is where delivery and spiritual warfare ministry kicks in.

I have Catholic friends that have started couples ministries after having problems themselves, by doing some of the earlier above have been successful into averting divorces.

They do understand that sometimes a deeper spiritual issue is involved, and the help of Charismatics in their tradition has been of great help.

In the end, we want to be faithful to the Word of God: what God united, men should not separate.

With all that said, sometimes, people do not want to be helped (eg abuser in a relation), and victims cannot continue in such predicament.

I guess is best to separate and not divorce, but then you deny the chance of renewing life. If the person yoked unequally at the beginning and was part of the problem, divorce may be granted...  See why is important to educate persons from childhood, so that they do not find themselves unequally yoked at marriage where problems can come up that may cause divorce.

Peace and grace.

Interesting quote:

"Whether we think about it or not, whether it’s in our job title or not, all of us engage in counseling. A friend shares a problem with us and asks for advice. A younger Christian we’re mentoring asks us for counsel on what he should do with his life. A married friend needs encouragement because of difficulties in her marriage. A church member confesses that he struggles with an addictive behavior. Your teenage daughter is concerned about being accepted at school. For better or worse, accurate or inaccurate, biblical or secular, what you say next is “counseling.”"

 Lawrence, M. (2010). Biblical Theology in the Life of the Church: A Guide for Ministry (p. 202). Wheaton, IL: Crossway.

Never saw the topic in such way, but as you can see it encompasses many different themes.

The book goes on to an interesting conclusion:

"... So our problem is not fundamentally behavioral, though it will show itself in our behavior. Our problem is not fundamentally mental, though it will show itself in our thinking. Our problem is fundamentally religious. Our problem is idolatry—disordered worship."

 Lawrence, M. (2010). Biblical Theology in the Life of the Church: A Guide for Ministry (p. 203). Wheaton, IL: Crossway.

Note that they may be up to something, and notice that the book itself is not about counseling.

Modern idolatry: Nationalism, sports, capitalism, politics, consumerism, chic women, etc.  Was it Calvin that said that the "human heart is but a factory of idols" [rough paraphrase from flawed memory].

See my liked specialty is Systematic Theology, but I see it more inclusive than usual, to me it must include Christian life, ethics, moral theology, social teaching, and even practical theology and ministry.

So being curious about where does counseling fit in ST, found the above book.

MJ. Smith said:

lex orandi lex credendi  from very early Christianity.

https://www.logos.com/product/17568/ancient-fire-the-power-of-christian-rituals-in-contemporary-worship

Thanks Scott for your input.

You mention the demonic, any particular resources you consider that deal with the topic clearly, accurately, and Biblically?

I agree with you that the topic seems to be low profile, but maybe some traditions do not have experience with it.

Now,  just for the records, just because a P&C ministry does some form of deliverance, does not mean they are in the OK.

I have seen P & C ministers fall to the ground showing signs of ungodly spirit influence, when Holiness P. ministers started to pray. So it seems they were not actually ok.

At other times I have heard of ministers that start a conversation with the ungodly influence, when in the Bible Jesus ordered them to "shut up" and leave.

By the way, what is your take on generational problems, some say that ungodly influences (maybe demonic) may be at work, others try to take a more western naturalistic view:

https://www.amazon.com/Didnt-Start-You-Inherited-Family-ebook/dp/B013D6640M/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=it%27s+not+your+fault&qid=1611326870&s=digital-text&sr=1-6

Thanks ahead of time for your input.

Peace and grace.

Thanks for the input Scott. 

Rene:

Valid remarks. Many wrestle with: where is the boundary to Christian counseling? When should cases be referred to pros? and the like.

Problem is that as someone noted, not all is about mental health. Like someone mentioned in a book: mental health does not make pigs jump off a cliff...

The topic is very important one, because there are important Christian worldview issues involved:

Take the gender identity situation. Some resource in Logos mentioned that research showed that when a gland in the brain does not develop as should, such problems ensue. (maybe that is why some say "born this way").

Should that be taken as a sickness issue? what is the probable cause of the gland's underdevelopment? can we affect such? how? 

Now I have heard stories of persons with gender identity problems, that in P & C contexts, have been cured of such problem (they through the grace of God knew something was not right)... they have allegedly felt a presence depart them (maybe unclean spirit), and who knows maybe the gland was set to normal by God.

All the mental health counseling, advice, that you could try to give would be useless, unless God Himself sets the problem straight.

So part of the Christian worldview comes into the limelight, is Jesus Christ alive and well? (He is the miracle worker), and does He show up where 2 or more believers are gathered worshipping in Spirit and truth, to continue His good works?

The evidence points to the affirmative (many books in FL that study modern day miracles), so just because particular groups try to deny God's reality (He is naturally supernatural, and as we are the ones living in a broken region of His Kingdom, He can come and set things straight for the love of His elect ones), does not mean that their theological construct jibes with His reality (which is Ultimate).

Interesting topic, much needs to be further researched. Peace and grace.

Hi KIyah:

I know you did not write to me, but I just want to comment that there may be some useful information in some counseling resources.

Maybe another way to get to that info is by the Dave Moser method:

https://blog.logos.com/how-do-you-use-logos-dave-moser/

I do think spiritual directors may find some useful info that aids in their tasks.

Peace and grace.

Rene Atchley said:

Certainly God, faith, and spirituality has a place in helping individuals heal from their wounds of whatever origin.  Certainly the counseling resource can be helpful as a general and severely limited option to use in the therapy process.   Each of us has to stay in our proper lanes determined by our training, education, intellectual discipline, ethical guidelines, and abilities in order to protect the wounded individuals who walk through our door.  Otherwise its about serving Mammon instead of serving God.  

So we can agree that there is a perceived or real need for counseling. I would imagine that there are some harmless advice that can be done by referring to the Bible for certain issues.

Then the mental health problems, which are the ones that can be problematic (remember the exorcism movie in which the Catholic Father was found guilty) supposedly in the movie the patient was deemed to require professional mental health treatment.

Now probably mature P & C believers can offer help in the cases where spiritual problems could have a part.

So the question is old: are we our brother's keeper? should we try to get some formal training in counseling to try to help persons?

Is there a system parallel to EMS? first aid first responders (at scene), EMT (limited intervention), Paramedics (more intricate intervention), Nurses, Doctors, and  Specialist Doctors for definitive treatment.

A similar structure for mental health would seem advisable, but how about spiritual problems? what if medical treatment does not cause any effect, and the problem persist?

Are P & C mature believers morally required to help if asked to? how about those that are social support for the person, should they have the ethical maturity to understand that some conditions require Holy Spirit involvement, and usually found in some forms of P & C ministry?

Are there legit P & C spiritual ministries (delivery, spiritual warfare, etc), and should others refer to them when appropriate? i.e. not just serving Mammon ones.

Lots of questions, few answers from the persons involved in such endeavors. If you are a therapist or counselor, what should be your grade of responsibility for not referring to a spiritual minister when the case requires so?

An old story: a woman approaches a minister in the street (recognized by the Bible he was carrying and the way dressed), and asks him to talk to her about Christ. 

Since the woman was a known prostitute in the area, the minister did not actually took the time (their regulations called for a female believer companion to be there and other procedural requirements), and kind of dismissed her telling her he would be back to do talk to her about Christ.

The minister came back with full ministry support, and ready to try to help the woman, only to find out that she had committed suicide.

Was she having a mental health episode, due to her lifestyle stress and situation? or was some form of spiritual malign influence attacking her?

Should he have reacted differently and try to help the woman right away? Was he negligent through lack of preparedness for such an episode?

Should believers in general get some basic information to try to help in dire situations, to prevent unwanted results?

Can harmless advice be given in line with Good Samaritan laws?

Question remains: are we our brother's keepers, and if so what does that entail?

The topic is very interesting, but no clear guidance is given to believers, unless the leaders are much into Care and believe in the ministry duty of all believers.

SineNomine said:

Indeed. Using the Counseling Guide will no more make someone into a qualified counselor than the Theology Guide will make one into a capable theologian.

Conversely, does this mean that a mental health practitioner is disqualified from being a spiritual care provider?

Excerpt from L9:

Desegregation of the soul. The shepherding ministry of the church has historically drawn on both spiritual and psychological resources for the care of souls. Within the past century, these have become compartmentalized, and psychological resources have been largely separated out from the church’s ministry. Psychological care is considered the domain of professional mental health practitioners and spiritual care the domain of professional clergy. Though there can be wisdom in specialization, we believe that the segregation evident today is both unbiblical and neglectful of the history of soul care within the church. Christian providers of psychological care and Christian providers of spiritual care must rejoin their efforts and recognize their joint responsibility for a more holistic care of the soul (as a “psychospiritual whole”; see Benner 1998). Of course, our awareness of the great traditions of pastoral care does not in and of itself qualify us to be practitioners, but this awareness is a starting point for integration.

Such an integrative approach to soul care would be rooted in a biblical understanding of the nature of the soul. Benner argues convincingly for a view of the soul rooted in the theology, anthropology and psychology of Scripture, encompassing “all of our personhood”:

The soul is the meeting point of the psychological and the spiritual. This means that soul care that draws on both the best insights of modern therapeutic psychology as well as the historic Christian approaches to the care and cure of persons will never again be able to accept the artificial distinction of the psychological and spiritual. A proper understanding of the soul reunites the psychological and the spiritual and directs the activities of those who care for the souls of others in such a way that their care touches the deepest levels of people’s inner lives. (1998, p. 62)

 McRay, B. W., Yarhouse, M. A., & Butman, R. E. (2016). Modern Psychopathologies: A Comprehensive Christian Appraisal (Second Edition, pp. 26–27). Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic: An Imprint of InterVarsity Press.

SineNomine said:

I wrote what I wrote and I meant only what I wrote.

I kind of get your point, education can be important, but remember that education without Holy Spirit guidance can be disastrous.

Saint Peter did not go to college, do you dismiss his ministry?

How about Jesus?

Would you receive counsel from any of them two or would you rather receive counsel from a Jungian approach trained modern practitioner based on who knows what assumptions / preconceptions [maybe naturalism, and materialism]?

What was the Bible talking about in the following verse:

1Co 14:25  the secret things of his heart become evident, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God, proclaiming, "God is truly among you!"

Many times counselors have to deal with symptoms of a more serious underlying condition (spiritual), and just dealing with symptoms will not solve the root cause of the problem.

Do most humans have "secret things of their hearts"? and if so, how is one to access such so that one can get the point of view from God to see what can be done by humans, and what can be done only by God?

Interesting topic, and I am not trying to be polemic, just looking at the topic from another angle and suggesting further research for reflection.