Okay users: think, plan, choose, be vocal, vote (Logos 10)
Yes, this time next year some of Faithlife will be hard at work on Logos 10 and some staff will be alpha testing. Which means other staff will have completed the initial cut on specifications for Logos 10. Which means other staff will have prioritize the features and enhancements and put them into a project plan. Which means someone from FL will have asked for user input which will lead to a long thread with a very mixed bag of suggestions. That request is likely nine months out but the planning and prioritizing internally is likely less that six months out. So we, as users, need to assume that our having suggestions out there and prioritized on Feedbear (or in the forum) is about three months out. We need to start thinking now so that we really offer our priorities not just our concern of the moment.
My current thoughts:
- A version of the sermon management and builder tools, tailored for lessons to replace the Lesson Builder of WordSearch
- A work harness i.e a pre-built mini-layout that contains (a) a Logos generated work list of references to check out from a guide or factbook section (b) generally a Bible opened to the passage being studied (optional as it may not be applicable) (c) the resource opened to the link provided by the guide/factbook (d) notes to enter your comments and link them easily to one or more of the resources (guide/factbook section). Bible, resource. The harness provides next/prior functions to allow the user to spin through all the data offered by the guide/factbook section.
- Add visual art, music, literature, and film works to Factbook. Think Visual Midrash in Jo Milgrom's usage. Scripture is interpreted and commented on through the arts -- not just academic papers read only by specialists.
- The grammatical and semantic role information MUST be more integrated into the Logos environment. It is critical for understanding but underused -- this task includes things as simple as making the analytic search results flip easily between grammar and semantics to things as difficult as allowing basic-Bible-morph-clause searches to run on clause, sentence, paragraph, pericope i.e. honor the linguistic units.
- Expand the links even further especially for the definition of technical terms (links to label documentation), atlas links, semantic data back in the context menu . . .
- A supplement to the Biblical Event Navigator that I call the Biblical Action Navigator which is, I admit, a bit extreme. But the principle is to take all the active verbs of the Bible, see if they group together into a action which groups together into an event. All the events (including my cannibal mothers) then are included in the navigator which further groups them upward with the key level being "Bible stories" as understood by parents, teachers, and preachers everywhere.
- For professors, the ability to add labels and/or tags to a resource that lacks them then have FL convert the data into official FL tagging and labels and distribute an upgraded resource. This would expand the resources professor would feel comfortable assigning as textbooks.
- Addition of more volumes of Migne
- Expansion of data that can be fed into the charting tool and additional forms for charts
- Indexing the Bible studies that are monographs so that they may be searched for the text under discussion (think of something similar to journal articles but for book length treatments)
- Addition of a true sentence diagrammer from a third party that uses the standard parenthesis style input i.e. I am not asking for a diagrammer that also does it's own parsing - merely one that produces nice looking diagrams from my input.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
Comments
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MJ. Smith said:
So we, as users, need to assume that our having suggestions out there and prioritized on Feedbear (or in the forum) is about three months out.
For general reference, right now the top three Feedbear requests for Logos on the desktop that Faithlife has not publicly indicated any interest in are:
https://feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/paper-builder
https://feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/toggle-dark-mode-without-restarting
https://feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/drag-and-drop-for-shortcut-folders
The most popular Mobile request of all is:
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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And revisit my prediction [;)]
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
I really want Logos to focus on better pulling out content from my Library in a way that is easy to find and makes additional purchases more valuable. A perfect example is Carta. I purchased them, like them, but I have to seek them out manually to ever find content from them as they don't appear in passage guides or other tools that I can find. Why doesn't additional map content appear in a 'map tool' or map section of tools such as the passage guide? As I buy more map content I would expect the 'map tool' (Atlas?) to expand in breadth. Kind of like the Factbook does to some extent. Instead, The Atlas tool still basically useless no matter how much mapping content I purchase. I have lots of resources like this that tent to get 'forgotten' in the data overload. Basic easy searching should be a part of this. How about Factbook working on more than just Bibles? How about Archeology/manuscript tools or sections in factbook or other tools (better focused than just Media). Basically, it's time for Logos to be better at bringing everything together without so much manual intervention. Simplify and bring it all together. That's what I want for Logos 10.
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SineNomine said:MJ. Smith said:
So we, as users, need to assume that our having suggestions out there and prioritized on Feedbear (or in the forum) is about three months out.
For general reference, right now the top three Feedbear requests for Logos on the desktop that Faithlife has not publicly indicated any interest in are:
https://feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/paper-builder
https://feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/toggle-dark-mode-without-restarting
https://feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/drag-and-drop-for-shortcut-folders
The most popular Mobile request of all is:
Faithlife should take note that many of the most popular ideas (with the exception of Paper Builder) are about enhancements and improvements (or even just completion) of current features versus totally new ones. What if Logos really pushed themselves in the remainder of Logos 9 and into Logos 10 in that direction? Shortcut Folders and Dark Mode feel like they were pushed out the door and then abandoned. I expected a lot more refinement of those features by now. Better Folder functionality would GREATLY improve day-to-day user experience (I'd love to be able to drag things to the desktop from a shortcut folder), and improvements to Dark Mode would actually make more people (like myself) want to use it. (But instead, we got a store button, but I digress...) I was excited about Dark Mode and thought it would be my main setting but it is nigh unto unusable for me in its current state.
I realize that fancy new features make the marketing easier but Logos needs a season of dedicated refinement. I thought Logos 9 was going to be that because it wasn't supposed to be the overhaul that Logos 8 was, but it doesn't seem to have turned out that way. Just make a lot of the things we can already do slicker and easier (without adding a bunch of new bugs that end up never getting fixed).
My priorities remain the same as in MJ's similar recent thread: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/201270/1170009.aspx#1170009
Logos should probably just plan on doing the top-ten vote-getters on Feedbear (summarized in MJ's other thread) with a mind toward rolling in some related ideas that make good sense to combine with the top ideas but that may have fewer votes.
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MJ. Smith said:
2. A work harness i.e a pre-built mini-layout that contains (a) a Logos generated work list of references to check out from a guide or factbook section (b) generally a Bible opened to the passage being studied (optional as it may not be applicable) (c) the resource opened to the link provided by the guide/factbook (d) notes to enter your comments and link them easily to one or more of the resources (guide/factbook section). Bible, resource. The harness provides next/prior functions to allow the user to spin through all the data offered by the guide/factbook section.
Yes, please.
And...
Footnote: Would like 2b able to highlight + add a note within a footnote.
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Sermon Editor Ultimate fully functional edition — It has already been requested:
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/186839.aspx
DAL
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My two biggest issues would be a fully functional Sermon Editor as DAL brought up above, as well as better image support.
Again, Logos for me is far and above other companies in most respects, but image implementation/quality lags behind Accordance. This is an area where Logos could bridge a huge gap over competitors.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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I’d like to see the ability to better search within denominations. Yes, I understand that there is a question about how to label the works of somebody who moves from one to another. But when I’m writing for a specific audience, I’d like to be able to to focus on the resources immediately relevant.
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
[Y]
David Wanat said:I’d like to see the ability to better search within denominations. Yes, I understand that there is a question about how to label the works of somebody who moves from one to another. But when I’m writing for a specific audience, I’d like to be able to to focus on the resources immediately relevant.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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Kiyah said:
Logos should probably just plan on doing the top-ten vote-getters on Feedbear (summarized in MJ's other thread) with a mind toward rolling in some related ideas that make good sense to combine with the top ideas but that may have fewer votes.
This raises the question of when inferences from a sample of users who choose to vote are reliable indicators of what the entire population of Logos users would like to have. Sorry, this is a statistics-related question, but is relevant.
1. When the sample is not representative of the population, then the inferences from the sample are unreliable.
An analogy would help. If a political question is asked exactly the same way on CNN and on Fox News websites, the answers received on the website would be completely different. Importantly, it will be different if the same question was presented to a random sample of the whole US population. Why? The people who visit these two websites (the equivalent of users who choose to vote on Logos features) are not representative of the entire US population (the equivalent of the population of Logos users).
Bottom line: inference from Faithlife polls on Forums are unreliable indicators of what the population of Logos users would demand.
2. When the sample is too small, then the inferences from the sample are unreliable.
The feature with the maximum vote is 88. To the best of my knowledge, Logos has 2 million users. Making inferences from such a small sample is totally unreliable.
I am sure there are good statisticians in Faithlife. If you wonder why Faithlife doesn't take your feedback into account, it is probable that they are listening to their statisticians!
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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1Cor10:31 said:
To the best of my knowledge, Logos has 2 million users
I have no idea how many users they have, but it is my understanding that the vast majority are mobile only users... People downloading the mobile app.
I agree that the poll may not be a good representation of "what users want." It is, however, an attempt. As for me, however, I stubbornly refuse to join Feedbear.
macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
Choose Truth Over Tribe | Become a Joyful Outsider!0 -
1Cor10:31 said:Kiyah said:
Logos should probably just plan on doing the top-ten vote-getters on Feedbear (summarized in MJ's other thread) with a mind toward rolling in some related ideas that make good sense to combine with the top ideas but that may have fewer votes.
This raises the question of when inferences from a sample of users who choose to vote are reliable indicators of what the entire population of Logos users would like to have. Sorry, this is a statistics-related question, but is relevant.
1. When the sample is not representative of the population, then the inferences from the sample are unreliable.
An analogy would help. If a political question is asked exactly the same way on CNN and on Fox News websites, the answers received on the website would be completely different. Importantly, it will be different if the same question was presented to a random sample of the whole US population. Why? The people who visit these two websites (the equivalent of users who choose to vote on Logos features) are not representative of the entire US population (the equivalent of the population of Logos users).
Bottom line: inference from Faithlife polls on Forums are unreliable indicators of what the population of Logos users would demand.
2. When the sample is too small, then the inferences from the sample are unreliable.
The feature with the maximum vote is 88. To the best of my knowledge, Logos has 2 million users. Making inferences from such a small sample is totally unreliable.
I am sure there are good statisticians in Faithlife. If you wonder why Faithlife doesn't take your feedback into account, it is probable that they are listening to their statisticians!
I guess the counter-thesis (and I’m not saying it is so), is the concept of “for every person who takes a stand on X, there are Z people who agree who think similarly but haven’t taken action.” No idea which is the more accurate model to look at.
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
1Cor10:31 said:
they are listening to their statisticians!
Well, we do know they look at use-statistics when they don't want to fix something. Bob mentioned personal books, as an excellent case of few use them, so what's the use?
With this in mind, maybe instead of almost-no-votes-suggestions, it'd be better to mindlessly use features that need fixing? For example, export images thousands of times, to encourage allowing zooming, Click on wear-marks hundreds of times, to make them more usable. Like that.
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Logos is an incredible tool as is, but all tools could be perfected with minor additions. My ultimate wish is for additions to the Desktop mode "Reading view" (or perhaps a new "Presentation mode/view").
Prior to the pandemic, I hosted several in-home small groups where I attached my laptop to the host's flat panel TV to share the Logos screen with the attendees. An earlier Forum post described my usage: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/177259.aspx
For the past year we have used Zoom meetings and adapted quite well; so well that we plan to continue indefinitely. I still share my Logos screen as we read and study scripture. I share scripture, commentary, timelines, factbook and personal books. Outside of Logos I show videos, and other content.
In "Reading view" now the current panel tabs appear/hide while hovering the cursor over the top border. This gives quick selection access to other tabs and to the Table-of-contents sidebar.
My requested additions for a similar "Presentation mode" would be
1. Hovering over the right border could provide other quick selections like a Favorites panel or shortcut bar.
2. Greater control over (or disabling of) other automatic characteristics like columns.
3. To accommodate Zoom usage, optionally disable "full-screen" display and contain content with a single window.
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Don Kolafa said:
2. Greater control over (or disabling of) other automatic characteristics like columns.
Can you be more specific about what is needed beyond the column controls under the panel menu?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Joseph Turner said:
My two biggest issues would be a fully functional Sermon Editor, as DAL brought up above, as well as better image support.
Again, Logos for me is far and above other companies in most respects, but image implementation/quality lags behind Accordance. This is an area where Logos could bridge a huge gap over competitors.
I totally agree with the image functionality. I only have accordance because the imagery and interactive atlas are superior to Logos. Otherwise, I use Logos for almost everything else.
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My top requests:
1. Figure out a way to implement the Wordsearch Instant Verse study tool into Logos. The passage list is great, but I loved the instant verse study tool in Wordsearch and often went there when I needed quick information on a verse.
2. Add tables to Notes
3. Allow importing of personal books from other formats than Docx.
4. Create a restoration tradition resource library.
5.Give access to personal books in the mobile app and web app.
6. Make New Testament and Old Testament choices in the Bible Browser Common Divisions
7. The paper-building and management tool.
8. Tag more resources for the Counseling Guide.
9. Fix the highlighting bug that messes up highlighting when using a capsule-style and crossing chapters.
10. Add an application section to the Passage guide that tags resources with discussion questions on the passage under study.
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Joseph Turner said:
Logos for me is far and above other companies in most respects, but image implementation/quality lags behind Accordance. This is an area where Logos could bridge a huge gap over competitors.
Can't say it much better. C'mon FL leave the competitor in the dust on this one!cshover8669 said:I totally agree with the image functionality. I only have accordance because the imagery and interactive atlas are superior to Logos. Otherwise, I use Logos for almost everything else.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.5 1TB SSD
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DMB said:
1Cor10:31">they are listening to their statisticians!
Well, we do know they look at use-statistics when they don't want to fix something. Bob mentioned personal books, as an excellent case of few use them, so what's the use?
With this in mind, maybe instead of almost-no-votes-suggestions, it'd be better to mindlessly use features that need fixing? For example, export images thousands of times, to encourage allowing zooming, Click on wear-marks hundreds of times, to make them more usable. Like that.
Oh yeah, that's the way to beat the algorithms indeed! You can game the algos if you know how the algos work.
Of course, Faithlife can always count the unique IPs. Or, they can go one step further and count the number of unique customers who access a given feature. So they will have a reasonably precise idea of how many customers are using a given feature. That is all that matters for them. The more customers who like a feature, the more $ they can get from selling the feature.
Faithlife doesn't care about who has the loudest voice in the Forum. It could be people who have invested 10s of thousands of dollars. At the end of the day, they are still just one customer to Faithlife! So they have to go by the feature that has the widest appeal.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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David Wanat said:
I guess the counter-thesis (and I’m not saying it is so), is the concept of “for every person who takes a stand on X, there are Z people who agree who think similarly but haven’t taken action.” No idea which is the more accurate model to look at.
Valid point, I totally agree. But given that there is no way to vote down a feature, there is no way for Faithlife to understand the net attractiveness of a feature even if the sample of voters is representative of the population of Logos users.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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JT (alabama24) said:
1Cor10:31">To the best of my knowledge, Logos has 2 million users
I have no idea how many users they have, but it is my understanding that the vast majority are mobile only users... People downloading the mobile app.
I agree that the poll may not be a good representation of "what users want." It is, however, an attempt. As for me, however, I stubbornly refuse to join Feedbear.
I agree that there are lots of users who may use just the free software. Marketing was not one of my favorite subjects during my MBA, but I'm thinking that one of the initiatives that Faithlife has will be to try and convert some of these non-paying customers into paying customers. I was one of them who used the free software for a few months before jumping in.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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1Cor10:31 said:
try and convert some of these non-paying customers into paying customers
That is obviously their goal. My point, however, was that the large number you cited aren't really "Logos users" in the sense of the desktop application... nor are they likely to ever be. There are many people who want/need to have a bible on their phone, but don't ever plan to sit at a desktop and utilize the desktop app.
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JT (alabama24) said:
1Cor10:31">try and convert some of these non-paying customers into paying customers
That is obviously their goal. My point, however, was that the large number you cited aren't really "Logos users" in the sense of the desktop application... nor are they likely to ever be. There are many people who want/need to have a bible on their phone, but don't ever plan to sit at a desktop and utilize the desktop app.
Agree with you 100%.
Giving free software is the way to identify and get access to people at the top of the "marketing funnel" (it is an actual phrase). Based on how people use the app, Faithlife can figure out the probability that a given user would become a paying customer. As you have identified, a person who uses the app to only read the Bible has virtually zero probability of becoming a customer.
Their first priority will be to get people to buy something. What is the hook? The free version comes with a bunch of really good resources. One day, out of curiosity, the person may dig into some resources. That increases the probability from near zero to some decent number. As the engagement becomes higher - probably the person explores a feature or two - the probability becomes higher. I guess Faithlife can also look at the features that a newbie customer who has purchased some features uses the most. They can then infer from their revealed preference (powerful principle used by financial economists) what features must have drawn them to a purchase. Then you can do a data analysis on the set of features used by newbies to identify a latent factor that could have been responsible for their initial purchase. Then work on features that satisfy the latent factor.
Ultimately, finance professors will teach that the features Faithlife should introduce should be the ones that bring them the most "profit" $ (correctly defined). I am not sure they are depending on the Forum to identify these features. On the flip side, I think the Forum is great for them to identify bugginess of features.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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Come on guys - don't hijack the thread for speculation on statistics and marketing. I really want to know what people want when they stop and actually THINK about it rather than responding with their current top complaints.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Thread => Logos 9 Wishlist began with: (many items mentioned in thread are Logos 10 opportunities)
Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:What are the most important things we should solve for Logos 9?
- What general themes or areas should we focus on?
- What bugs should we fix?
- What improvements should we make to existing features?
- What new features should we add?
- What new data sets should we build?
- What new books should we include?
Please specify desktop, mobile, and/or web, where appropriate.
What does your ideal Logos 9 upgrade look like? What would make Logos 9 an irresistible upgrade for you?
If different, what should we do to win the next generation of new users?
Please include links to forum threads, User Voice requests, etc. where applicable.
We've reviewed the User Voice feedback for desktop, mobile, and books, but I want to make sure that the priorities there are reflective of the current priorities of our forum community.
Thanks for taking the time to share your feedback!
Now pondering What would make Logos 10 an irresistible upgrade ?
Faithlife Equip dream idea is Daily Devotional with Prayer & Praise interaction (visibility limited to Faithlife Group). Sermons and/or Homilies could have lesson/lectionary question(s) spread out for small group discussions (possibly with message video snippet). Special use case is family small group (possibly include grandparent interaction with children & grandchildren).
From Wordsearch Bible Software threads, especially Favorite Wordsearch Features (started on 18 Sep 2020)
- Illustration Organizer (a way to organize illustrations on the Docs menu and be able to tie them into Sermon docs would be great)
- Instant Verse Study (maybe find a way to soup up Copy Bible Verses with it)
- Lessonmaker (a Lessons section on the Docs menu would be great, even throwing in some features from the old Logos Lesson Builder would be fun)
- Improve Panel Linking (by Phil Gons on 19 Sep 2020) => https://community.logos.com/forums/p/193813/1117460.aspx#1117460
- Zipscript
- Collapse Table of contents
Feedback has:
- LESSONmaker 26 votes (In Progress)
- Add collapse/expand all to Table of Contents sidebar in resources 23 votes
- Illustration Manager 21 votes
- Adult Questions for LESSONMaker 13 votes (In Progress)
- Add Bible Book, Chapter, Verse selector to Locator Bar for Navigation 7 votes Desktop
- Add Bible Book, Chapter, Verse selector to Locator Bar for Navigation 5 votes Web App
- Instant Verse Study 2 votes (surprised by few votes, much less than forum thread replies)
- Instant Verse Study 2 votes (maybe merge into Instant Verse Study)
- add Zipscript application 2 votes (surprised by few votes, much less than forum thread replies) - wonder about Zipscript for Web App
For my Logos & Verbum use, being able to open a New Search Tab without running previous Search would be greatly appreciated (duplicate Search panel should run previous search as part of duplication).
For me, consistently faster user responsiveness (Logos 9 & Verbum 9 have too many spinning beach ball cursors on macOS Big Sur 11.4). Ongoing desktop application annoyance is Click & Wait (non intuitive). => https://community.logos.com/forums/p/193813/1158738.aspx#1158738
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Would love to see canvas updated to be useable with larger chunks of text. I'm not an expert on vector graphics but it seems that text has not been implemented for speed in that part of the app. My personal use case would be laying out chapters at a time for BIG overviews of books at one time.
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I agree with the new features that you mention.
I would like to encourage improvements to existing features, as well as having new features. I have the following suggestions:
Factbook
I am pleased with the way that the Factbook has been developed on Logos, with the ability to link to other resources and features on the system.
I like the new sidebar/table of contents, where everything is sorted into categories and subcategories. I would like to mention a couple of problems with the factbook, namely:
1) Difficulty in finding a specific author, for example. Some sections are not in proper alphabetical, numerical, date order etc.
2) Some entries do not link to the required article, or resource.
I trust that this will be sorted out in due course, for both Logos 9 and for the upcoming Logos 10.
Commentary browser
Thinking about the Factbook, as mentioned above, as well as the Bible Browser, I feel that a commentary browser would be a good addition to Logos 10. This would work in a similar way to the Bible browser. Where the Bible browser only looks at bibles, a commentary browser would only look at commentaries, and study bible notes.. The commentary browser could also be linked to the Bible browser.
I am looking forward to Logos 10.
Thank you.
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