PBB & Sermon FIle delay

I must confess that I watch pots boil. I also seemingly compulsively check for new updates and keep an eye on the upcoming features page on Logos site. I have been waiting with (Nearly) bated breath for the new PBB and Sermon file update, so it was with much dismay that I discovered this morning that PBB and the Sermon file add-ins(?) have been delayed until 2011. However I am at least grateful that they are being open about there being a delay. I will simply have to reset my hopes and expectations and continue to bite the bullet an create my sermon files in L3. At least we are able to read those in L4. Here is the updated info, taken right from the features coming soon page this morning.

In Beta Testing

Sentence diagrammer
Better printing support

Fourth Quarter 2010

Vocabulary and word lists
Video resources

2011

Personal Book Builder (Improved to use the native book format!)
Sermon File
Illustrations section in Passage Guide

http://www.logos.com/4/missingfeatures

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Comments

Frank Sauer

Now that just took away the excitement printing gave me about V4! 3 of the more requested items pushed off until next year.... Guess I'm stuck with using V3 for at least 6 more months... At least I have Sermon File and Smart Tags support, as well as being able to view PBBs... Wonder how we go from original estimate of 2nd quarter 2010, then 3rd quarter now pushed off until next year... But hey, V4 doesn't have all its features but IPad and Iphone are getting updates....

Tim

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/152195#Comment_152195

I am pretty sure that the ipad/iphone updates are done by a separate development team. I am not sure what is going on but am confident that they have their reasons. A purely speculative guess is that they hit a hitch in resources or legality issues for the compiling.

Bohuslav Wojnar

Tim, you definitely did not make me happy [:(] But we will not shoot the messenger, of course... [:D]

MJ. Smith

that PBB and the Sermon file add-ins

Unfortunately, I am not surprised. Unfortunately that also means that the ability to create our own content for timelines, parallel passages, shared notes are also probably delayed. I'm going to post a new suggestion to compensate.

Ron

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/152221#Comment_152221

parallel passages

Hi MJ,

Sorry if this is a naive question, but can you tell me what "parallel passages" are (and why we should want to create them)? I saw the suggestion on the allourideas site, but had no idea what it was.

Thanks!

Ron

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/152227#Comment_152227

what "parallel passages" are (and why we should want to create them)?

You've probably seen them in:

the Gospels lined up so the same story from each of the Gospels in shown
the OT history aligning the Chronicles to Kings et.
Paul's epistles aligning same topical discussions

Why do I want to create them? I used them in L3 for things like:

deuterographs (passages that appear more than once in the Old Testament
Paul's various retellings of his conversion
matching instructions for building the tabernacle to the execution of those instructions
the various divisions into the 10 Commandments - Jewish, Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican ...
matching prophecies to their fulfillment
matching Scriptural allusions and quotes in the NT to the OT - separating LXX from Masorectic
I never quite finished the one on the Jewish division of the laws of the Torah

and those are just the ones I remember off the top of my head. I also stuff some offs and ends in because notes weren't searchable.

DominicM

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/152241#Comment_152241

Well..

I would rather delay than have an inferior verion...

The whole sharing thing will take the time and the work, we may be frustrated till it gets sorted, but the outcome should be worth it..

Frustrating, but.. such is life.. God is still on the throne

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/152258#Comment_152258

Well..

I would rather delay than have an inferior verion...

The whole sharing thing will take the time and the work, we may be frustrated till it gets sorted, but the outcome should be worth it..

Frustrating, but.. such is life.. God is still on the throne

I agree. But there are so many posts from so many people complaining that their favorite item isn't implemented yet that I decided I get a turn too. I even made my most pouty face to go with the comment. And, yes, I have started a serious suggestion thread for an interim solution that would satisfy me.[:P]

Ron

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/152241#Comment_152241

what "parallel passages" are (and why we should want to create them)?

You've probably seen them in:

the Gospels lined up so the same story from each of the Gospels in shown

the OT history aligning the Chronicles to Kings et.

Paul's epistles aligning same topical discussions

Why do I want to create them? I used them in L3 for things like:

deuterographs (passages that appear more than once in the Old Testament

Paul's various retellings of his conversion

matching instructions for building the tabernacle to the execution of those instructions

the various divisions into the 10 Commandments - Jewish, Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican ...

matching prophecies to their fulfillment

matching Scriptural allusions and quotes in the NT to the OT - separating LXX from Masorectic

I never quite finished the one on the Jewish division of the laws of the Torah

and those are just the ones I remember off the top of my head. I also stuff some offs and ends in because notes weren't searchable.

Ahhh, those parallel passages. OK, sorry, silly question. Thanks for the explanation though [:)]

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/152268#Comment_152268

Hate to be a "I told you so" guy but despite my love for ver. 4 I said it would be 1Q 2011 before the important features were in:

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/14857/113515.aspx#113515

Highlights of my prediction:

I am targeting 1Q 2011 when we really see all the big stuff is in, product runs well and performance is acceptable to more people, and the UI has been tuned up a lot

My own little silly prediction is that the first large core of users will start uninstalling ver 3 this fall. By fall of 2012, 80% of ver 3 users will be permanently off it. Again this is just my own guess, but you have plenty of time to enjoy BOTH ver 3 and ver 4.

Why? Software is software...

Mark Smith

Methinks that Logos is going to make a big push to have a release version of their Mac software available for the fall academic meetings like they did with the PC version last year. They've transferred developers over to the Mac side recently and just released the first beta so they definitely are getting closer and want to get the thing done.

That means its going to take longer to get what was promised on the PC side. I guess we can complain and moan, but I suspect the Mac development is the big priority this summer and fall. Just a guess, of course.

Paul Golder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/152402#Comment_152402

A couple of months ago Bob wrote about the difficulties, and questioning the usefulness of incorporating a fully featured editor into L4, with the implication that he was going to come to a decision one way or another.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is going to be some sort of union between PBB, sermon notes, and the internal editor. This could explain the 6 month delay.

JimTowler

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/152409#Comment_152409

I wouldn't be surprised if there is going to be some sort of union between PBB, sermon notes, and the internal editor. This could explain the 6 month delay.

Yes.

Some ask for a better editor in Notes. Clippping, PLists and Notes have overlapping ideas. Handouts are too limited. And so on ...

If we pull those kinds of ideas somehow into a "thing" that is powerful and bigger than all that, and can be shared ... ==> Maybe thats where PBB is going.

Bohuslav Wojnar

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/152415#Comment_152415

I wouldn't be surprised if there is going to be some sort of union between PBB, sermon notes, and the internal editor. This could explain the 6 month delay.

Yes.

Some ask for a better editor in Notes. Clippping, PLists and Notes have overlapping ideas. Handouts are too limited. And so on ...

If we pull those kinds of ideas somehow into a "thing" that is powerful and bigger than all that, and can be shared ... ==> Maybe thats where PBB is going.

I would not like that idea. I prefer to see the notes as notes and PBB as the possibility to create a full-fledged books, like Bibles not existing in Logos yet, our own commentaries, public domain books etc.

JimTowler

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/152457#Comment_152457

Yes, point taken.

Its just that in a way, a PBB is an overgrown Note. Who knows if they are pulling all the bits into one tool or set of code modules that do all of it. Even if it "appears" you have each of those things in the UI, its just possible the code will have much in common.

I would rather we have some more of the good stuff sooner than 2011, but if thats how it works out, so be it ...

I still want more power in the COM API, and even more so now, given the delay! If there is enough power via URIs and COM API, I can build my own tools to do some of the things I want that Logos4 can't do right now, and wont do any time soon.

People building external tools using the COM API are like extra Logos4 programmers for free!!!

Bohuslav Wojnar

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/152462#Comment_152462

Yes, you are right. Either way, I trust Logos to prepare a good and advanced tool for us that will enable us to make our own resources working well in Logos. It is up to them to find out how it should be done.

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/152464#Comment_152464

I love Logos 4, but I am also working on a Dr. in Biblical Studies, and decided in January to just use Libronix 3 until, they finish working on Logos 4. I am more happy then ever that I decided to do that.

Right now I don't send any fellow students to Logos and I have not since last Nov. I had such high hopes for Logos 4 and I still do, but at last I don't see it as practical for doing advance work that you have to count on,each day and I will wait until after it is done before sharing it with fellow students.

I am sure in the end it will be great, but the last year has not been a good experience for me concerning Logos. I am just glad I have not gotten others in this mess.

This may sound negative, but actually I think Logos needs to know how some of us feel, and also to know that we cared enough that we don't want others to have a bad taste concerning Logos, so we are waiting to send them to Logos, but I am sad about how things have gone the last 9 months!

In Christ,

Jim VanSchoonhoven

JimTowler

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/152467#Comment_152467

Jim,

I don't want to undervalue your views and comments. Its important Logos hears the whole range of what its customers are feeling, wanting, needing etc.

I do want to say, I've had a good run from Logos4, but someone might think otherwise at times, based on some of the things I've asked for. It reminds me of the shepherd with 100 sheep, and then loosing one. It would be a mistake to judge the health of the whole flock from the rantings of the shepherd as he attempts to figure out the tools as he heads off to find the missing one.

I could list some things I dislike about Logos4 as it is today, but the list of things I love about it is much longer.

Thankyou Logos for what we have. I look forward to continued additional features and improvements.

JimT

William

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/152467#Comment_152467

Right now I don't send any fellow students to Logos and I have not since last Nov.

This is another user here, but I would reconsider this thought. By doing this you are purposely judging the quality of L4 for everyone. I do not think you should do that for other users. You may have aspects that you need L3 and that is understandable. Others, myself for one have dropped L3 all together. I maybe doing a few work arounds but consider it a small price when you consider the books that you get for the upgrade. If they have no software.....L4 as is I believe is still on top. If they have L3 they can do the same as you....stick with L3 but they might find for their uses L4 is fine.

Just a concerned L4 user. This is a good product even with a couple missing features.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/152468#Comment_152468

I could list some things I dislike about Logos4 as it is today, but the list of things I love about it is much longer.

Well Spoken! I agree completely. [Y]

Michael Lyman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/152501#Comment_152501

If I knew this a while back and knew that my indexer would go bad again after working for a while, I certainly wouldn't have spent the money to go to Camp Logos until next year. I expected PBB to be coming out quite soon when I decided to go. I use John Gill's commentary extensively and I can't search Logos 4. Logos 4 is still well worth the price I paid in November and I have the updated resources that I can use in 3. I still wouldn't use any other software except for some PDF versions on my Android phone since I can copy and paste them to the SD card. Logos 3 is still incredible and I know things don't always go as planned. I cannot forget the days and time spent looking through a library and copying by hand or copier everything I wanted to use in a paper or to teach with. I hope we will always be able to use it.

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/152495#Comment_152495

William Bingham, of course I am making a judgement for others by not sending them to Logos, until after they get the major part of it done. In my case, I would not want to put them through the type of things I have gone through with Logos in the last 9 months. Until all the different things that has happened with the release of Logos 4, I had never seen a better company and one that fixed any mistakes so quickly, since in the last 9 months Logos has made some tough mistakes, this is not just my opinion, even the president of the company knows things have not gone any where near what they expected and hoped for, and this has caused them problems in many different areas including the need for more trained help.

By waiting until they get things settled I am protecting their reputation and mine. And by not sending people to them until they have things more under control I am deciding what I think is best for those people and Logos, just like you are if you currently decided to send someone to Logos right now.

Of course if you or any one else wants to send people to them right now, that is fine with me, but I will wait and see what happens.

As for myself, I am still buying more Logos products to put in Libronix 3. Remember not everyone already has Libronix 3. Do you know if you buy Logos 4 today and never had Libronix 3, can you even get Libronix 3 to run your new modules and would you want to have to learn how to run two new products?

One last point, I teach believers how to use bible software to study the scriptues, in the last 9 months I have had more people giving up on Logos than ever before and looking for something else. This trend really bothers me!

Some of the main concerns have been their computers were so slow with Logos 4 on it, no printing, constant updates that are huge if you don't have high speed internet, and of course as always a few have Librionix 3 and find it too hard to use, but there is a solution to this last one. Others that had looked at getting Logos 4 felt it is to expensive for the price. In the past I could let them know about all of the free pbb modules to counter that objection, but now there are very good free products like The Word with 1000 plus modules and even more books it is very hard to make a point for Logos, without their free pbb modules.

Jim VanSchoonhoven

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/152556#Comment_152556

in the last 9 months I have had more people giving up on Logos than ever before and looking for something else.

Really? What are they looking for that they aren't finding?

Paul Golder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/152556#Comment_152556

in the last 9 months I have had more people giving up on Logos than ever before and looking for something else

This seems to contradict the current situation in Bellingham, ie. backlog of work, long hours, constant hiring, continued expansion, etc...

Jonathan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/152556#Comment_152556

William Bingham, of course I am making a judgement for others by not sending them to Logos, until after they get the major part of it done. In my case, I would not want to put them through the type of things I have gone through with Logos in the last 9 months. Until all the different things that has happened with the release of Logos 4, I had never seen a better company and one that fixed any mistakes so quickly, since in the last 9 months Logos has made some tough mistakes, this is not just my opinion, even the president of the company knows things have not gone any where near what they expected and hoped for, and this has caused them problems in many different areas including the need for more trained help.

By waiting until they get things settled I am protecting their reputation and mine. And by not sending people to them until they have things more under control I am deciding what I think is best for those people and Logos, just like you are if you currently decided to send someone to Logos right now.

Of course if you or any one else wants to send people to them right now, that is fine with me, but I will wait and see what happens.

As for myself, I am still buy more Logos products to put in Libronix 3.

One last point, I teach believers how to use bible software to study the scriptues, in the last 9 months I have had more people giving up on Logos than ever before and looking for something else. This trend really bothers me!

Jim VanSchoonhoven

I understand your initial frustration to a point. I, at first, was very critical of the update. However, I have grown to LOVE 4.0 so much more than 3.0. I haven't even used 3.0 since Christmas day (I can hear my Libronix icon sobing [:'(]). You really need to give 4.0 at least a one month trial run. I could almost guarantee you will forget about 3.0. I am saying this as an initial 4.0 hater myself.

One thing you might want to consider is the ability of anyone to use both 3.0 and 4.0. If you felt comfortable recommending 3.0 before, why don't you feel comfortable recommending 3.0 now? 3.0 is the same great program it always has been. Nothing in 3.0 has been changed, canceled, destroyed, or deleted. If there is something about 4.0 you don't like you can simply go about life as if 4.0 never existed. Furthermore, 3.0 is still available to new and old customers.

Personally, I have recommended Logos to a friend and I almost have him convinced to buy a package. He downloaded both free engines and is enjoying using them both. From my experience with him, I doubt that any new customers would feel that 4.0 is a poor program or even realize that they are missing something. In fact they would likely be more happy with the program than yourself since they wouldn't be disappointed by missing features that they have never used before. I don't think a new customer would buy 4.0 and be disappointed that PBB isn't functional yet. They would likely have no clue as to what PBB is or why they would even want to mess with this feature. What new customers are interested in is books, searching, and learning. The functionality of 4.0 is SO much better at accomplishing these goals I don't know why you would not want to recommend the tool.

Another thing you might want to consider is that Logos 4.0 is accomplishing its primary purposes. Logos is primarily a Bible program, and only secondarily a "content/book creation" tool. The things we are waiting on are really minor "bonus" selling points, not primary features that any of us initially purchased Logos for. When we bought Logos 3.0 we bought it because we could study the Bible, not because we wanted to save our sermons or make books. Anyone can save a sermon or write a book in a word processor. What we want Logos for is study! Those who buy Logos 4.0 are buying the program primarily as a library and research tool. All of these functions are working. What isn't working are a few of the cool features we "discovered" after several months of messing with 3.0 after our initial purchase.

Stein Dahl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/152582#Comment_152582

Hello all,

I'm one of those who have kept L3 on my computers because of missing features, etc.. I absolutely love L3. . . BUT . . .

In the last few months L4 has improved so much (with each update) that I've actually begun using it more than I use L3. For the first time I,m really beginning to see what the potential of L4 is - and I think it has a greater potential than L3 has. I think the 4.1 update - (if the beta is any indication) - is going to go a long way toward being able to do many of the things I'd like to do with L4. And updates after that ? . . . Well, it's just going to keep getting better.

That being said, I can't wait to see what the absolutely finished product will be - as in when no more significant updates are needed. I think it's going to be great.

I also own several other Bible software programs - as well as L3 & L4 - and if, for some reason I had to choose just one, it would have to be L4.

But hey, that's just my two cents worth.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/152556#Comment_152556

By waiting until they get things settled I am protecting their reputation and mine. And by not sending people to them until they have things more under control I am deciding what I think is best for those people and Logos, just like you are if you currently decided to send someone to Logos right now.

I'd like to come to Jim's defense. When one is writing a dissertation is not the time to change to software that requires a steep learning curve or whose results you don't completely trust. And for myself, I don't want to recommend software I'm not using myself. So Jim, when you have time come back to L4 and you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/152634#Comment_152634

Actually, the fact that Logos is selling more than ever before is not at odds with my statement that I have seen more people looking at other alternatives.

Buying a product and being satisfied with it are two different things. Plus even if customer satisfaction was as high as ever, you would still have more disatisfied customers in sheer numbers. Both are possible answers to why I am seeing a greater number.

I would like to thank MJ. Smith for her comments, she hit the nail on the head! And I do believe that 9 months from now, I will not be using Libronix 3, and that all my work will be done in Logos 4.

Jim VanSchoonhoven