More books that Logos shouldn't reprint...
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So, if all the scholars of old got it all right, and if there were no new information which shed light on our understanding, there would be no need for continued scholarship
I appreciate the thinking behind this statement but I do not believe we can ignore that there is often a commercial motivation to scholarship. Sometimes we need to consider what motivates the scholar are they seeking something new and different because it is the truth or are they motivated commercially? For me one of the benefits of older books is that they open a window into the current world of scholars and enables me to ask the question why has there been a change and is this really a better understanding.
Whilst I love studying the most current material on any subject I personally do not believe that newest is always best and in some instances would argue that whilst most modern material is built on a firmer technical base some of the conclusions lack a spiritual dimension and when all is said and done Bible Study is a spiritual rather than a technical pursuit.
God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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For me one of the benefits of older books is that they open a window into the current world of scholars and enables me to ask the question why has there been a change and is this really a better understanding.
Whilst I love studying the most current material on any subject I personally do not believe that newest is always best and in some instances would argue that whilst most modern material is built on a firmer technical base some of the conclusions lack a spiritual dimension and when all is said and done Bible Study is a spiritual rather than a technical pursuit.
Kudos Graham[Y]. I share the same point of view and I am in full agreement.
Ted.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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For me one of the benefits of older books is that they open a window into the current world of scholars and enables me to ask the question why has there been a change and is this really a better understanding.
Whilst I love studying the most current material on any subject I personally do not believe that newest is always best and in some instances would argue that whilst most modern material is built on a firmer technical base some of the conclusions lack a spiritual dimension and when all is said and done Bible Study is a spiritual rather than a technical pursuit.
Kudos Graham
. I share the same point of view and I am in full agreement.Ted.
+2 [Y] Gents I'll drink to that also [C]
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For me one of the benefits of older books is that they open a window into the current world of scholars and enables me to ask the question why has there been a change and is this really a better understanding.
Whilst I love studying the most current material on any subject I personally do not believe that newest is always best and in some instances would argue that whilst most modern material is built on a firmer technical base some of the conclusions lack a spiritual dimension and when all is said and done Bible Study is a spiritual rather than a technical pursuit.
Well said my brother.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Or is the journey of scholarship sufficient reward in itself?
It sure could be. [:)]
Costa Rica
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I suggest to let there be a tab that people can select their religion,
Some of us might have a hard time choosing a pre-defined tab to describe our own religion.
We could include a denominational label in our signature line enabling readers to quickly see where we stand without leaving the post.
I think using our profile page to describe ourselves is a possibility. Religious upbringing, educational institutions, current church affiliation, and other factors that make up the fabric of our lives would be helpful to explain where we are "coming from."
A formal book rating system would be nice. Giving the reviewer's name, church affiliation, and a 5 star rating system (akin to Am@zon.)
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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nd when all is said and done Bible Study is a spiritual rather than a technical pursuit.
Thank you, Graham! [Y][Y]
Well, gents, I thank you all for a stimulating and enlightening discussion. And thank you, Gary, for the thread.
Now, back to writing my paper!
See you all in the next thread. Grace and peace.
Costa Rica
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Sometimes we need to consider what motivates the scholar are they seeking something new and different because it is the truth or are they motivated commercially?
As long as the subjective judgement call is made inside my own mind and not acted upon by a censorship committeee somewhere. Motives are extremely hard to judge. Only God knows a person's true motives.
that whilst most modern material is built on a firmer technical base some of the conclusions lack a spiritual dimension and when all is said and done Bible Study is a spiritual rather than a technical pursuit.
This is my first reason to read the older works. As mistaken as they can be on some points, I am humbled by their sincere devotion to God and their desire to please him. How many of us rise at 3 am to study original manuscripts? Or do we labor by candlelight through the night? Few devote 40~50 years of study to share a singular lifework for the spiritual benefit of others.
Patrologia Cursus Completus, Series Graeca, Part 1 (Vols. 1–18) http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/4345
An Exposition on Prayer in the Bible (5 Vols.) http://www.logos.com/products/details/3439
Philip Schaff Collection (21 Vols.) http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/4597Biographies of these great saints should be read by all of us to appreciate their sacrifice. http://www.logos.com/search?q=biographies
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Did not all the scholars of the day tell us those resources were the latest and most reliable we could get based on the newest discoveries and textual criticism? Today we have the latest scholars telling us just how bad and unreliable the last century's scholars were. I bet in 50 years the majority of today's experts will be held in disrespect by our grandchildren's contemporary scholars. Somebody has to be wrong in this formula. And if scholars were wrong in 1900, it isn't a stretch to think some could be in error today. But is it not the natural inclination of a scholar to think everyone else is wrong and himself the only repository of wisdom & truth?
Well...if that is the impression you've gotten from my comments, we're not communicating.
If someone 100 years from now says, "Don't trust what Shogren says about the use of ATAKTOS in 2 Thess 3, because he didn't have access to the wider set of data that we now have"....I'll pat him on the back! Of course he should retain what's correct, leave the rest behind and push on.
I really cannot understand your metaphor about a safari. A better metaphor would be (if we're talking about the old kind of safari where you hunt dangerous animals), Why go on safari with five guns and treat them all as reliable, when experts on every side keep warning you that one of them often misfires and its sights are off?
When it comes to lexicons, age does matter, since in theory, everything that is reliable about Thayer has been taken up and repeated in BDAG and others, while they have also done you the favor of trimming away his methodological errors, and judgments that were reasonable at the time (as you say: "those resources were the latest and most reliable we could get based on the newest discoveries and textual criticism") but not as well-informed as they could and should be now.
By the way, just did a study on Luke 15 and used Calvin, WBC, Chrysostom, Matthew Henry, and NIBC. I think the average year of my sources is around AD 1500. Obviously I have no prejudice about older works, only obsolete findings or older works that (seem to me) to be promoted as up-to-date. I have no disrespect for the ancients. In fact, they did what we do, only more of it, with greater expertise, and without computers - my hat goes off.
BTW, several people in this discussion also have advanced degrees in this field. I read Dr. Heisler's essay, but am still not sure what to make of it...I've taught exegesis for decades, and I use my lexicon just about daily and find great usefulness in it.
Gary Shogren http://openoureyeslord.com
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Whilst I love studying the most current material on any subject I personally do not believe that newest is always best and in some instances would argue that whilst most modern material is built on a firmer technical base some of the conclusions lack a spiritual dimension and when all is said and done Bible Study is a spiritual rather than a technical pursuit.
I agree with the principal you're expressing, definitely.
However, I don't always get the impression that older = more spiritual while newer = more technically proficient but spiritually emptier.
I say this because, many (let's say some) of the older commentaries I use seem to come from a background in Classics or history, and I find little of use for the spirit. Or - as I found in Matthew Henry and (my hero) Chrysostom just this morning, allegorical interpretations of the Scripture that had good ideas which were not really anchored to a close examination of the text.
On the other hand, while many (and here I will say "many") contemporary works come up dry on the spiritual, I run across others which are wonderfully nutritious for the believer and for the pastor. I could mention off-hand the works of D. A. Carson (especially his wonderful paperbacks on Paul), Gordon Fee, Herman Ridderbos. And also people from (yes) the Catholic Church, etc.
Gary Shogren http://openoureyeslord.com
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Dr. Gary, first things first: I mentioned earlier I do agree with your request for better ad copy. I also respect the educational achievements of all who have posted.
I really cannot understand your metaphor about a safari
A better analogy would have been a turkey shoot. For those unfamiliar with the concept; You go to a turkey farm, pay a fee for the guaranteed "privilege" of shooting a captive turkey at close range. It is not the same as hunting them in the wild. The wild turkeys often out-smart the hunter. Likewise, using pre-selected study tools, there is no "sport" in the quest.The outcome is pre-determined. All the students in my Greek class (back in the 1970's) came up with the same general translation in assignments because we were all limited to the same lexicons, grammars and pedigogics. It is no surprise we reproduced the NASB almost word-for-word. Did we learn how to study Greek or did we become parrots to bolster one perspective? I would have preferred wider exposure to various lexicons & grammars.
When it comes to lexicons, age does matter, since in theory, everything that is reliable about Thayer has been taken up and repeated in BDAG and others,
I agree. But Thayer still has value to me, outside of it's lexical (in-)accuracies. I would not take a flintlock on safari, but I would hang it on my living room wall. Also, I would not snipe prairie dogs with a 30-06, nor hunt razorbacks with a 22. I want Thayer for Thayer's sake. He looks nice on the shelf next to BDAG and I have a choice when I stretch out my hand for a lexicon, even if I always retrieve BDAG.
For a better understanding of this form of "mental illness" grab a FREE Logos resource today: The Love Affairs Of A Bibliomaniac - Eugene Field http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/labfield
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I agree. But Thayer still has value to me, outside of it's lexical (in-)accuracies. I would not take a flintlock on safari, but I would hang it on my living room wall. Also, I would not snipe prairie dogs with a 30-06, nor hunt razorbacks with a 22. I want Thayer for Thayer's sake. He looks nice on the shelf next to BDAG and I have a choice when I stretch out my hand for a lexicon, even if I always retrieve BDAG.
For a better understanding of this form of "mental illness" grab a FREE Logos resource today: The Love Affairs Of A Bibliomaniac - Eugene Field http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/labfield
Bro Matthew you did crack me up with this! Very funny.
Ted.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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I want Thayer for Thayer's sake. He looks nice on the shelf next to BDAG and I have a choice when I stretch out my hand for a lexicon, even if I always retrieve BDAG.
Huh.
Well, this may be as far as dialogue can take us then!
I have copy of Thayer too...but I keep it more as an historical piece than a vital daily resource.
Gary Shogren http://openoureyeslord.com
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Edited: added the blue text for clarification of obsolesence.I want Thayer for Thayer's sake. He looks nice on the shelf next to BDAG and I have a choice when I stretch out my hand for a lexicon, even if I always retrieve BDAG.
Huh.
Well, this may be as far as dialogue can take us then!
I have copy of Thayer too...but I keep it more as an historical piece than a vital daily resource.
I don't actually own Thayer's in hardcover any more but will be getting him back (next to my Logos version of BDAG) on my electronic bookshelf that Mark Barnes was so kind to create. My wife does not object near as much when I keep books for historical value in my Logos library as she does for me to keep the physical book on a shelf in the house. So we could say Logos is fostering marital harmony by providing electronic alternatives to "obsolete content" hardcover books. It makes it easier to let go of the old friends. Thanks for the thread. Points well taken.Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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As long as the subjective judgement call is made inside my own mind and not acted upon by a censorship committeee somewhere. Motives are extremely hard to judge. Only God knows a person's true motives
I totally agree, Logos' role is to publish as much, new, old, good, bad material as they can so we have the broadest possible choice. Personally I enjoy reading material by someone with a different point of view as it challenges me to think more deeply about what I personally believe.
God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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If someone 100 years from now says, "Don't trust what Shogren says about the use of ATAKTOS in 2 Thess 3, because he didn't have access to the wider set of data that we now have"....I'll pat him on the back! Of course he should retain what's correct, leave the rest behind and push on.
Let's turn this around.
If we just drop the old resources completely, how will we even know when the scenario is: "Don't trust Danker on such-n-such a word. Thayer did a better job"?
Its nice to say that BDAG is like a brand new gun and Thayer is a flint-lock, but as you've pointed out on your blog, Gary, Biblical studies isn't a science. Make guns is a science. This isn't.
In BDAG, we find διανύω with the definition:
"to carry out an activity, complete ... Ac 21:7 but continue is also probable here (as Xenophon Eph. 3, 2, 12 ..."
The problem is that if we have a student (or anyone who isn't a lexicographer) reading BDAG, they'll assume that continue and complete are both just as valid options to choose in determining the meaning of the text in Acts 21.7. The problem here is that in 1881, Frederick Field wrote an absolutely terrible discussion of this word that has since made it into all modern lexicons. The gloss/sense continue has no lexical foundation to stand on. His own notes are just as often right as they are wrong and in this case they are clearly wrong.
The path of Field's notes on this word to BDAG originated in Thayer, who initially only included a reference to his notes merely to point out that Fields discusses this word. Thayer does not include the gloss/sense continue. Thayer leaves Grimm's lexical material in place with the minimal reference. From there, Abbot-Smith picked up Field's note on this word and included it in his Manual Lexicon and then in 1957 with BAG, Field's fallicious note arrived in a full scale English lexicon (its not in the German Bauer, 1952), firmly entrenching it as a possible meaning for Acts 21:7. From there it when into Newman, BAGD, L&N, and now in BDAG, 2000.
More likely than not Field picked up on the meaning continue from the 1845 edition of LS, which lists Euripides Orestes (a reference that has continued in LSJ), but this reference is just as doubtful -- the most recent edition by Murray of Euripides rightly translates the occurrence in question as has finished following the normal and common and correct sense of διανύω.
If you were to merely look at Thayer, you would get the right meaning instantly and there'd never be a problem. But if you were to only use BDAG, you'd be given a choice, a choice where the options are presented as if they are both just as likely.
I can multiply examples like this. This particular one is summarized from John A. L. Lee's A History of New Testament Lexicography (SBG 8; New York: Peter Lang, 2003), 265-272.
Determining which lexicon to trust cannot ever be done on a full lexicon scale. It must be done on a word by word basis. And that is why we need as many lexicons in Logos as possible.
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I don't actually own Thayer's in hardcover any more but will be getting him back (next to my Logos version of BDAG) on my electronic bookshelf that Mark Barnes was so kind to create. My wife does not object near as much when I keep books for historical value in my Logos library as she does for me to keep the physical book on a shelf in the house. So we could say Logos is fostering marital harmony by providing electronic alternatives to "obsolete" hardcover books. It makes it easier to let go of the old friends. Thanks for the thread. Points well taken.
Matthew - I didn't foresee that this thread would consume my life for several days, so I think I'll just Amen your theme of marital harmony and sign off with that...
...after this brief thought: I regularly upgrade a decent percentage of my books, especially reference books, from hard copy to Logos, so I have ready linked access to books I use all the time. The result: I then have two copies of, say, Moulton and Milligan.
Then I read that John the Baptist taught, "he that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none", and I take that to apply to books as well as coats. So, I give away the hard copy to someone who needs it, often to my grad students. I work in a country where books are hard to come by and where many students earn minimum wage, about $1/hour.
I'm also making plans to go top to bottom through my hard copies this fall and giving the collection a really serious shaking out, and donating to our library whatever I don't positively need and use. I can just go to the library when I need them, like everyone else, right? This is the plan, anyway...God give me the nerve!
Maybe other Logos users have "back-up volumes" that could bless someone else.
Just a thought, take from it what you will. Thanks for a thought-provoking dialogue this week. Gary
Gary Shogren http://openoureyeslord.com
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I don't always get the impression that older = more spiritual while newer = more technically proficient but spiritually emptie
There are many recent works that I find deeply spiritual and I genuinely appreciate the work of scholars through all generations to deepen our understanding of the original text and the meaning that it communicated to the original readers. It just feels sometimes that some are so busy trying to find another layer of meaning that has somehow been obscured that they are missing the obvious.
God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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A late reply Jeremy: I'm a devoted fan and promotor of Logos, I require that my students purchase it. My comments are those I would make to a friend, not to "attack."
I am no expert, but I have taught Greek and Greek exegesis for almost a quarter of a century. Yet, as I've catalogued above, it took me the better part of 2 days to separate the wheat from the chaff in a single article of Thayer ("agape"). I used all sorts of tools, including a few hours spent on the Thesaurus Graecae Linguae database. I would rather have invested that same time in the biblical text.
Gary Shogren http://openoureyeslord.com
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A late reply Jeremy: I'm a devoted fan and promotor of Logos, I require that my students purchase it. My comments are those I would make to a friend, not to "attack."
I am no expert, but I have taught Greek and Greek exegesis for almost a quarter of a century. Yet, as I've catalogued above, it took me the better part of 2 days to separate the wheat from the chaff in a single article of Thayer ("agape"). I used all sorts of tools, including a few hours spent on the Thesaurus Graecae Linguae database. I would rather have invested that same time in the biblical text.
When Thayer was in prepub I warned that it was written prior to the discovery of the Oxyrhinchus Papyri and was flawed by a mistaken view of the Greek which attempted to operate of a classical basis. That said, there is usually room for even an outdated work as a part of the history of scholarship. The only caveat is that the purchaser should be aware of its limitations.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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This is one time I am happy to see an old thread resurrected. I had let this slip my mind. I will now add Thayer to my wishlist and buy it with my Logos Credit, whenever we get it.
[A] When I get to Heaven I want to share a bunch of oranges with Thayer while the rest of you hang out with the smarter guys. [;)]
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