Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos
Comments
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One vote: I have a substantial investment in LOGOS products, and I can see where this new business model is heading for the bottom line and growth at user expense. Especially in these economically unstable times, I have no interest in renting anything (a subscription).
As a consumer, keeping up with inflation and business costs, renting a virtual product is not in my best interest. If I cannot own it outright, I do not want or need it.
Additionally, as with who owns, operates, monitors, and controls the World Wide Web, who and where does AI come from (GIGO)? As excellent and valuable as AI seems, I see nefarious prophetic Biblical implications coming down the pipe.
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If you subscribe today, you’ll get five new features (Smart Search, Search Results Summaries, Summarization Sidebar, Sermon Assistant, and Instant Dark/Light Mode).
I don't understand why a subscription would be required for instant dark/light mode.
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I don't understand why a subscription would be required for instant dark/light mode.
In a normal launch year, you'd have to wait until the launch of L11 to get access to this feature, just like dark mode itself was originally only available to Logos 9 customers, not Logos 8 customers. But this year, people who subscribe are getting early access to features that would normally only be available in the fall.
We are not saying that this feature will forever be locked behind a subscription. A subscription is just the only way to get early access to this feature.
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Thank you! I did look to see if it had been mentioned, but there are 26 pages of posts so I missed it.
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Mark,
Can you describe what the other tiers will be? Most of my study is with Hebrew and Greek and I see the Pro Tier is aimed at pastors specifically (and I am certainly not that).We're still working out the details of the other tiers, but we are planning a tier specifically for those who study the original languages.
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In other words. will a continued subscription garner any other benefits down the line? For as far as I have gathered there are no further benefits. Correct me if I'm wrong.
New features and improvements delivered roughly once a quarter. We'll be continuing adding value to your subscription.
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As a perspective NEW USER (only free version and monthly free books) who is CONSIDERING purchasing a "starter feature set" and the PTW Commentary series (in my shopping cart), I am all the more confused and not entirely sure this business will be around in 10 years for me access the items I have purchased.
FWIW... The confusion of your entire business model has done nothing but delay my purchase of ANYTHING. I just don't "get it".
Let me buy the software (I don't mind paying) and let me buy the books I want. This nearly "forcing" someone into a package with three trillion books is, well "fishy".
Seems the prudent thing is to BUY now so we don't have to RENT later.
I am just a stay at home layperson seeking to be drenched in the word daily.The core software that you need to read your books will always be free. And we'll keep that software updated to fix bugs and work with the latest operating systems.
The discussion here is simply about the additional optional features. If you don't want those features there will be no ongoing costs to you.
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Hi Mark/Phil -
Mark said: “We’re still thinking through what that means for purchasable feature sets, and we’d value your feedback on whether the option to purchase would be important to you, knowing that you’d miss out on all the AI and cloud-backed features along with regular updates. ”
Many posts here have addressed the non-Ai feature set that *could* operate offline on local PC. I do understand that subscriptions will in those cases modify the local PC engine but only “unlock” new features if the subscription is live. It’s easy to do programmatically - requires a live WiFi connection. But the point is - the code for that feature IS local, not cloud based. (Again, not AI). Many posts have begged y’all to bundle those new local-PC features every year or two into a perpetual-license feature set as you’ve done in the past, so non-subscribers can purchase it. Of course, the code in the engine on the PC is the same … there’s just a flag in the config file somewhere that says “permanent unlock” (versus subscription required). I’ve written plenty of code myself that has those modes (plus scheduled end dates etc).
I explained all that so other users get the picture.My question here is regarding IMPROVEMENTS to EXISTING features. For example, many are aware how limited and awkward the current Notes feature is (including highlighting). Y’all have said you are working on that. So - WHEN you make improvements (aka fix frustrations) to EXISTING feature, are you at Logos able to tell us now that all THOSE fixes and improvements (local PC based) will *definitely* be offered periodically in bundled feature sets?
That is, if we have the feature now but it works poorly, are non-subscribers ”stuck” with the L10 version of that particular feature forever?=============
Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
I apologize if this has already been discussed. I am concerned about privacy. Will our notes be fed into the 3rd party AI service? Will we need to start taking notes outside of Logos to keep them private from a 3rd party AI service?
The Discussion Questions Generator allows you to send individual sermon documents to AI services. We only send the specific content you request, and we never use this data to train AI, nor do we allow any of our technology partners to do so. We require our technology partners to use this data only for the purposes of our tool and not to retain it longer than is needed for that purpose.
So no, your notes will not be fed into a third-party AI service.
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My question here is regarding IMPROVEMENTS to EXISTING features. For example, many are aware how limited and awkward the current Notes feature is (including highlighting). Y’all have said you are working on that. So - WHEN you make improvements (aka fix frustrations) to EXISTING feature, are you at Logos able to tell us now that all THOSE fixes and improvements (local PC based) will *definitely* be offered periodically in bundled feature sets?
That is, if we have the feature now but it works poorly, are non-subscribers ”stuck” with the L10 version of that particular feature forever?That's a good question, and I'm afraid the answer is, "It depends."
Bug fixes will certainly be delivered to non-subscribers. So will compatibility updates.
Major improvements will certainly be delivered to subscribers only.
<edit>I expressed myself poorly there. What I was trying to say was that if we released a new feature, any improvements to that feature would be delivered to subscribers but would not be delivered to people who had bought the feature outright. I wasn't intending to rule out the possibility that in two years' time there might be a means to purchase those improvements outright.</edit>
But I appreciate there's a grey area in the middle, and that's what you're asking about.
There will undoubtedly be occasions when we deliver small improvements to non-subscribers, perhaps particularly when something feels broken. <edit>But that won't be the case for major improvements.</edit> But the bulk of improvements will certainly be subscription-only.
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Thanks Mark
Let me try to focus the question about grey areas a bit. I’m concerned about legacy support issues.
Let’s imagine that Logos staff finally decide to clean up all the awkwardnesses and documented limitations of the notes+highlighting feature(s).
Let’s imagine that a lot of users have previously created hundred of thousands of notes that use various features of the existing Notes+Highlighting. Finally, let’s imagine that your cleanup of Notes+Highlighting is so extensive that you need to replace a major portion of the existing code, and that the 2.0 version can do the same things as before, plus a lot more things, as well as fixing bugs.
You’ve said major new features will only be by subscription. I presume a wholesale rewrite to a 2.0 version (my example) would be in that subscription-only category.So, let’s say your subscription users get all existed and start adding a zillion new notes, using the new features, and they ALSO go back and edit a lot of their old notes to take advantage of those new features. This means presumably that the “tags” hidden in the Notes files will be new and improved, to support those features.
Finally, say that some of those subscribers fall on hard times (or retire and go on limited fixed income as I am), and can no longer afford the subscription. So, they cancel it. In that case, WHAT HAPPENS TO THEIR NOTES?
1. Notes created before the 2.0 version that weren’t edited.
2. Notes created after 2.0 version that heavily use the new features.
3. Notes created before 2.0 but edited after.As a programmer, I know how messy and frustrating it is to write code to support both legacy and current operation, especially when user-created files are involved. And I know how upset users get if you destroy or mangle their files.
So in the specific (reasonable) scenario I outlined, would Logos “certainly” provide a perpetual license option for the 2.0 Notes+Highlights?
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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
Major improvements will certainly be delivered to subscribers only.
But I appreciate there's a grey area in the middle, and that's what you're asking about.
No doubt there will be occasions where we deliver small improvements to non-subscribers, perhaps particularly on those occasions where something feels broken. But the bulk of improvements will certainly be subscription only.
I feel better about this change whenever Phil posts (he's always been stellar in the forums) and worse about it when Mark does.
At some point I suggest you guys put your heads together, get everyone one on the same page, and figure out exactly what you're doing. Further belabouring of the points is going to reach the point where it brings more smoke than light until you can give concrete and certain specifics.
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A simple announcement that feature upgrade sets will be offered for purchase periodically to non subscribers, albeit without those features which require AI and cloud-based services, would be of enormous help in quelling the fears that are currently running rampant. Please directly address this question as soon as possible.
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PLEASE!!! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!!!!!!! DO NOT DO A SUBSCRIPTION MODEL!!!!!!
I want to own the stuff I buy... I don't want to rent it from you...
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PLEASE!!! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!!!!!!! DO NOT DO A SUBSCRIPTION MODEL!!!!!!
I want to own the stuff I buy... I don't want to rent it from you...
Then don't subscribe. You'll still have access to everything you own just like you do now, and you'll still receive updates going forward.
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Major improvements will certainly be delivered to subscribers only.
Thank you for your continued effort and time to answer our concerns and your patience. I just wanted to comment on the fact that for any customer who doesn't want to pay for subscriptions (but would still be willing to purchase new functions with a permanent license), there is no real future for their Logos Application. Furthermore, the more a customer has invested in this program and books in the past, the more they will feel obligated to switch to a subscription. It's disheartening that loyal customers are being rewarded in this manner!
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If you go to a subscription only model, I will leave your platform and encourage others to do the same. To me, there is a real danger in requiring a subscription to fully use something that I've invested over $20,000 into. Please do not go this direction. I have theological/moral problems with you requiring a subscription and not allowing users to own their libraries moving forward.
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Finally, say that some of those subscribers fall on hard times (or retire and go on limited fixed income as I am), and can no longer afford the subscription. So, they cancel it. In that case, WHAT HAPPENS TO THEIR NOTES?
This is a highly hypothetical scenario, but I will say that we're very careful with user data, and we take our responsibilities seriously. We've gone through at least two transitions to new note formats through the years and kept user data intact, even to the extent of cross-syncing between new and very old clients running different versions of notes.
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I have theological/moral problems with you requiring a subscription and not allowing users to own their libraries moving forward.
You'll still own all the books you've purchased, whether or not you choose to subscribe.
And let me add, as a newcomer to Logos who is intimately acquainted with the available Bible software solutions, good luck finding a better alternative.0 -
If you go to a subscription only model, I will leave your platform and encourage others to do the same. To me, there is a real danger in requiring a subscription to fully use something that I've invested over $20,000 into. Please do not go this direction. I have theological/moral problems with you requiring a subscription and not allowing users to own their libraries moving forward.
That's not what is happening. Please see the original post:
Will I be forced to subscribe to Logos in the future? What about all the books I’ve already bought?
No one will be forced to subscribe to Logos to retain access to their existing content. You will always be able to access all the books you’ve purchased without further payment. Your books are your books. Subscriptions are for those who want access to the latest improvements, which aim to help you uncover deeper insights in less time.
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A simple announcement that feature upgrade sets will be offered for purchase periodically to non subscribers, albeit without those features which require AI and cloud-based services, would be of enormous help in quelling the fears that are currently running rampant. Please directly address this question as soon as possible.
I agree with this. This thread has talked about the idea of a perpetual fallback license. An example could be that perhaps if a version 2 comes out, version two would be offered to subcribers. Version 1 would then be offered for purchase.
I agree that at least for now in our limited understanding of a world with AI, that having the ability to purchase features except for those that require AI sounds plausable. Perhaps in 5 years we will laugh at our ignorance on this thread. But for now, I pray those at Logos would have wisdom as the business model changes.
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Then don't subscribe. You'll still have access to everything you own just like you do now, and you'll still receive updates going forward.
Humor me while I say this in other words, "Relax, you don't have to subscribe. It's totally optional. You will just be stuck with the features you have now, forever. In 5 years? No feature upgrades. In 10? Still no feature upgrades. in 20?! You guessed it, still none. But relax, subscribing is completely optional."
Sure, knowing that software updates will continue to be provided free of charge is of great value. But it is easy to see why it is nonetheless an insufficient promise to many.
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Mark - you gave a VERY limited answer to my carefully outlined question. Please don’t dodge it by describing what you did in the past, which was NEVER offering features SOLELY by subscription.
**Please go back** to my prior post (so I don’t need to repeat it here), and answer the question regarding the three categories of Notes. If this is “highly hypothetical“, what that implies is that it’s “highly unlikely” that y’all will ever do a thorough fix and upgrade to Notes. If so, eeek!
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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
I'm always weighing whether something is a good, long-term investment of my resources. If Logos moves towards subscription only for feature updates, then I will likely move away from the platform, although I have 10's of thousands of dollars invested in it. I don't want to be dependent on a subscription-based service to access and fully use all my resources. I also worry about the long-term future. I want to be able to use my library in a full and robust way when disconnected from the internet.
I understand the possible benefits of incorporating AI into Logos. But I also worry about the risks. We've seen in recent days how biased AI can be towards liberal opinions. Won't that work itself into Logos results? Will we get specific data on which AI platform Logos is using?
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I think an impasse has been reached. Most existing users want a path to upgrading and purchasing of perpetual licenses of on-computer features. The AI features are a novelty for many and don’t impress the majority of your long term customer base. I myself am willing to pay a small stipend at this point but in the end I want to have an improved platform when I cut the Internet and subscription. A lease to purchase plan with clear commitments is palatable. I see this somewhat comparable to investing in two or three year upgrade purchases. I can’t say that everyone will like my idea but it is a better compromise than what is being seen as a line in the sand. Respectfully, Kevin
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I feel better about this change whenever Phil posts (he's always been stellar in the forums) and worse about it when Mark does.
I don't agree with this statement. Both, Mark and Phil are trying their best to answer our questions and concerns. They could have just done what other companies do: who implement changes without consulting their customer base. I tried to read most of the comments in this thread and know one thing for sure: I am glad I am not Phil and Mark.
Software licensing changes and FL needs to have sufficient resources to further develop Logos. We all want current features to improve (e.g., overall usability, Notes, Prayer Lists,...) and most of us also want new features (e.g., AI). In the past, I justified giving into my book addiction with the argument that I help FL improved Logos. Now, it looks like some leaner years might be ahead for me. I pray that FL will have the wisdom to cater for the diverse needs of their customer base, the size of the previous investment in Logos, and changing income situations of Logos users.
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**Please go back** to my prior post (so I don’t need to repeat it here), and answer the question regarding the three categories of Notes. If this is “highly hypothetical“, what that implies is that it’s “highly unlikely” that y’all will ever do a thorough fix and upgrade to Notes. If so, eeek!
It's highly hypothetical because it assumes that if we upgrade notes in the future:
- We will change the format of the underlying document.
- That changed format will be incompatible with previous document formats with no way to convert between the two.
We've never done that in the past, and I can't foresee a situation where we would do that in the future.
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So, Mark, what's the specific timeline for resolving this? This month? April? October?
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This puts us with no improvements unless we go subscription. I would rather be able to pay for new features. This is what the rest of the people are saying. Again there are some people who are on limited income. It is a good possibility you will not retain them as customers.
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I would rather be able to pay for new features. Again there are some people who are on limited income. It is a good possibility you will not retain them as customers.
How is it possible to be able to pay for new features, but not able to pay for a subscription?
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