Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos

Peter_G said:

I have signed up for the trial of Logos Pro, and am still in the trial period. My question is this: if I continue, and commence paying $9.99US for a period of time, say for two years, what will happen if I discontinue my subscription? Will my installation revert to where it was when I began to subscribe? Will the end-result then be different from my saving up the $9.99US per month, and upgrading (like I have done in the past)? 

If you stop the subscription, everything will stop with the subscription.

For those who want to get any new features and are happy to pay a subscription to get them, all well and good. This has been going on for some time now; but can we be assured the option to own what we pay for is still going to be an option, whether it be two yearly, once a year or even every six months.

My point is that I can buy what I want or not, not to subscribe to stuff I have no interest in. Which is the reason I always upgrade to the new feature sets providing they offer something I want.

I have spent many thousands of dollars on Logos packages and books and am happy with my purchase of Logos 10 Portfolio.  Along with my packages I have added hundreds of additional books.  I would continue to buy upgrades and feature additions when they arrive, though I am now concerned about the future direction of the company.  I only need updates to fix flaws or vulnerabilities and to capably run on future OS upgrades.  I find value in what I have now, but of course would be willing to buy future packages if there are useful new features.

I am not opposed to AI via subscription if that is the only viable model, but I do not need the AI features.  I have been trialing the new AI features for the past few weeks and at this point have found them very underwhelming and not worth $10 a month for my use.  If others find them useful that is great.  Likewise the additional books are of almost no value to me.  

FL is not my company so they can and will do what they think is best for them.  Generally I avoid subscriptions when possible, but do have a few of them for what I consider essential services like online backup and storage, password managers, etc.  I do not consider this subscription essential or of value equaling $10 per month.  It is possible this may change in the future.  I much prefer to buy a program with a perpetual license even if in the long run it costs more than a subscription.  

I have been disheartened by this whole conversation; perhaps improperly.  If there is a Logos 11 with perpetual license I will almost certainly buy it.  It is highly unlikely I will continue a subscription and I am concerned with the uncertainly this has created consequently I am now hesitant to spend money on additional books going forward.

Peter_G said:

... what will happen if I discontinue my subscription? Will my installation revert to where it was when I began to subscribe? Will the end-result then be different from my saving up the $9.99US per month, and upgrading (like I have done in the past)? 

After the two years you would revert / fall back to where you were before the subscription period.

The end result will be different in that there may perhaps not be an option to purchase an upgrade feature set as was in the past ... the current marketing strategy for new features seems to be via subscription only and no feature sets for purchase. There have been comments by Faithlife/Logos staff that some consideration is given to suggestions for reconsidering and amending the subscription model with a different "fall back" solution

Also, the $9.99 is only a special offer for now for users who own the L10 full feature set, the more final pricing after the subscription model with several tiers has not been mentioned.

Wolfgang Schneider said:

the $9.99 is only a special offer for now for users who own the L10 full feature set,

Also to Logos connect subscribers.

DMB said:

Peter_G said:

 Will the end-result then be different from my saving up the $9.99US per month, and upgrading (like I have done in the past)? 

Adding to Tes, FL may not be selling you features this year (new, or new to you). Saving would be 'over'. That announcement (sell features, or not) is later this year. And this years' decision doesn't preclude next year's decision. Kind of like weather predicting.

The benefit to FL (sell features vs subscribe) is interesting. Historically, full-features for me, go for maybe $250 or so. Or includable in a package I might want.

- If they continue selling features, I'd continue buying, either FF's or packages (indeed, waiting for a sale currently) . I'd be waiting for any new features.

- If they force subscribe, I wouldn't. I don't Prime, and just canceled a religious-related subscription. I'm a cancel'er. But, I'd likely forgo the big package purchases also. They'd lose the FF amount. But the big package purchase as well.

It's an interesting problem for them. 

Same here.  I've always bought way up.  With a Subscription, I won't. Many past big buyers may fit there.  I suspect that will be a major economic consideration for Logos. Pluses and minuses--I suppose marketing figures that out using calculus and maybe common sense. 

Just wondering, I know I've seen others besides myself comment that they will cut their purchases if we are stuck with subscription only - am I the only one looking at some of the March Madness deals and getting more frustrated with Faithlife just not making a solid and final decision?

There are a couple deals that really intrigue me, but I cannot put them in the cart for purchase because I have no guarantee that I will not be forced into a subscription at some point in the future...

If there was a definitive statement that we would continue to have the same fairly priced access to purchased Feature Sets, I'd feel a little better about considering a purchase of resources....

The longer it takes for a definitive answer, the more it feels that this is an attempt to eventually force us into a subscription - it cannot be this difficult for FL to see what we as users can... Features already coded into the engine and activated by a license have no reason to not be offered for purchase (unless it is an AI related feature that has an ongoing fee attached to its usage), Not offering the purchase option is leaving money on the table and pushing users away....

It would be interesting to know how much money, which leads to sustainability is going down the drain for FL due to this decision/lack of decision.... A few hundred in deals that I have considered in this sale are swirling down the drain, not to mention the upgrades that I always purchase....

What a time to drop this subscription only nonsense - in the middle of a big resource sales promotion complete with a plethora of the unknown SMH

Rev. Eric Burrows-Stone said:

If they decide ownership will no longer be the way forward, I plan on switching to Accordance and saying good riddance to Faithlife.

If you're concerned about the company's future, definitely DO NOT switch from Logos to Accordance. The hemorrhaging of talent there is a real concern. Their failure to make good on many of the promises made with the Accordance 14 upgrade is disturbing.

One thing to remember. Logos is in a state of leadership transition right now. It may take a while for things to shake out with the new boss just stepping into his role on heals of the some significant family issues that he shared with the Forum Community.

MJ. Smith said:

I'm glad that when they imposed a subscription/fee on some new features, they were honest with us. They told us that some subscription/fee was necessary and told us why. They told us that they were still figuring out whether to go to an all subscription model or to some sort of mixed options. They've listened to us and reassured us that our investment in our resources continues to be as safe as ever - that a free version of the program will continue to be available. I have enough invested in resources that I am not in a position to even consider changing to a different application. So, I will continue to purchase what I need in Logos. As for purchase vs. lease, I'm willing to wait until Logos tells me what they are actually offering in the fall, at what price and with what features. What I won't do is take any action that makes them less apt to give warning and listen to feedback next time there is a major change.

Well said.  Good advice.  Thank you MJ.

MJ. Smith said:

I'm glad that when they imposed a subscription/fee on some new features, they were honest with us. They told us that some subscription/fee was necessary and told us why. They told us that they were still figuring out whether to go to an all subscription model or to some sort of mixed options. They've listened to us and reassured us that our investment in our resources continues to be as safe as ever - that a free version of the program will continue to be available. I have enough invested in resources that I am not in a position to even consider changing to a different application. So, I will continue to purchase what I need in Logos. As for purchase vs. lease, I'm willing to wait until Logos tells me what they are actually offering in the fall, at what price and with what features. What I won't do is take any action that makes them less apt to give warning and listen to feedback next time there is a major change.

Tim Hensler said:

Well said.  Good advice.  Thank you MJ.

Yes indeed.  Good, level-headed advice.  I thank you as well, MJ.

Sam Shelton said:

MJ. Smith said:

I'm glad that when they imposed a subscription/fee on some new features, they were honest with us. They told us that some subscription/fee was necessary and told us why. They told us that they were still figuring out whether to go to an all subscription model or to some sort of mixed options. They've listened to us and reassured us that our investment in our resources continues to be as safe as ever - that a free version of the program will continue to be available. I have enough invested in resources that I am not in a position to even consider changing to a different application. So, I will continue to purchase what I need in Logos. As for purchase vs. lease, I'm willing to wait until Logos tells me what they are actually offering in the fall, at what price and with what features. What I won't do is take any action that makes them less apt to give warning and listen to feedback next time there is a major change.

Tim Hensler said:

Well said.  Good advice.  Thank you MJ.

Yes indeed.  Good, level-headed advice.  I thank you as well, MJ.

Agreed; well said, Mr Smith.

MJ. Smith said:

Frank Sauer said:

I simply do not believe that there will not be a time that non subscription Logos will not go the way of Libronix...

I have no doubt that as the industry evolves, Logos will become as obsolete as Libronix ... I have no predictions as to what Bible study will look like in 500 years. Besides, I was not a fan of Libronix. But that does not change the fact that the subscription to cover ongoing costs as the software architecture changes, does not affect my confidence in Logos nor that I have invested heavily in Logos. I am not asking that others respond as I do; I am merely illustrating to Logos and forum members that some do respond as I do.

I understand your view - but this statement illustrates the concerns many have.... Logos continues to promise we will have access, it is also listed on the website as I have posted many times. However the statement you make here seems to be an open door to the possibility that we actually do lose access as we did to Libronix - which means forced subscriptions to access resources we own, if FL does not change its tune....

There are indeed areas that FL has a good track record of making things right, areas where they are exceptional with assistance they could refuse (Linux advice) and both I have publicly applauded - however they have also had a cloudy history in areas as well and this is one of those areas.

MJ. Smith said:

To put things in my perspective, I remember when 33 rpm records caused the 78rpm records to go on sale ... there have been multiple changes affecting my collection of music since then.

That is a good example.... If it was accurate...

If Logos did not market forever access to resources and features that you purchase, your comparison would be applicable... However, that is not the case.

No record, cassette, CD, Beta, VHS, DVD nor BluRay that I have purchased guaranteed ongoing support for access.... Logos does and has not always followed through....

Dave Hooton said:

The company would not be where it is today if they had kept maintaining Services for Libronix (many of which were determined by Windows OS support), as well as maintaining the Logos app for a wider (Mac) market. The Search query syntax of Libronix is superior to Logos but its features were constrained by Windows Internet Explorer.

Not sure what you mean by services here, I can say that I was running Libronix side by side with Logos and continued with fine results under compatibility mode until Logos cut off access for activation. Yes the Search Query was indeed superior and is another example of lost features we miss. 

Dave Hooton said:

My understanding is that FL will continue to update your Logos app irrespective of your decision about subscription. The only "veiled hints" I know come with the need to have a supported version of the OS in order to continue Free support of the app.

Until they have an excuse to go the way of Libronix or rename features that you own, that will only be available via subscription. (Unless they do the smart and right thing by offering both options)

Dave Hooton said:

We have to wait for definitive announcement, but we know that they are considering it.  The AI conundrum can be overcome, and I'm not concerned about losing AI functionality.

With the amount of feedback against Subscription only, it should be an easy and quick announcement. The longer they take to come forward with this fix, the more likely they lose customers new and long term.... Having checked in with other options, there will be competitive offers coming for Logos users from some of them... As I said in another post, there are some deals from March Madness that I am interested in, but will NOT invest another dime until this is fixed. So dragging their feet on something so simple is silly.

scooter said:

Hi, Mark. I read books.  I highlight books.  I write a few notes.  I want no new features.

My question: Every year I buy NEW books.  I want them to work without a monthly subscription......How do I do this in the new subscription milieu?  Will I have to subscribe?

Fully agree here; exactly my main use of Logos. 

     Looking at the youtube feedback on the AI model it's probably not something I would even be interested in purchasing. Happy just to read books that I want to, at my own pace...

Sam Shelton said:

Aaron Sauer said:

Sadly, it would appear that there are some Logos users who would prefer that this happens to Logos as well, rather than accept any changes that could help keep this from happening. I, for one, am hopeful that these changes will help Logos continue well into the future.

I sure do miss going to Blockbuster; I have no desire to miss using Logos.

I don't recall seeing any user state that they prefer Logos go out of business....

Mike Binks said:

Frank Sauer said:

all those monthly subscription payments leave you with nothing once you stop paying....

A little bit of dissembling here Frank. Far from being left with nothing one would be left with basic engine, all ones resources and any features that one has picked up over the years.

In the end when one has give up paying it is likely because the time one needs the complex features has come to an end and it is time to simply rest in the word and try to remember all the wisdom one gained while one was.

How about instead of an accusation of me dissembling .. You actually represent the context of my response...

If I already have the books and features I currently have.... I am not paying for anything. If I am forced to pay for a subscription for new features and lose them if I stop paying the subscription, I no longer have the books and resources/features that I had while paying.... Where as an actual purchase leaves me with the features and the joy and wisdom I have gained with use... Purchase allows both, subscription leaves you with nothing of the new features and books....

Frank Sauer said:

I don't recall seeing any user state that they prefer Logos go out of business....

Frank,

I never said that anyone did. I was referring to the appearance that some are more concerned about changes than sustainability. I truly hope that this is not the case. But whether or not this appearance is the reality, it is true that we each still have the right to our own opinions.

One thing that history has shown though, is that changes are inevitable for any organization that stays in business for any length of time. History is replete with examples of businesses that failed to change when needed and have fallen by the wayside. One of the reasons that Logos is making this change to a more subscription-based model is to help ensure sustainability for the future.

As the business is indeed theirs, they are likely in a better position to know what they need to do to move forward than me, you, or anybody else for that matter. I am glad that they let us know ahead of time and allowed us to share our thoughts.

As I have said before, while I prefer a non-subscription model, their sustainability for future use in my Bible study is far more important to me than the business model in which they use to make it happen.

In other words, their staying in business is more important to me.

DMB said:

Sam, just chatting.

At least your words did not appear magically one letter at a time as a chatbot would.[H]

 

DMB said:

- As a retired retail executive, 'change' doesn't guarantee survival. Existing customers may balk. New customers may see new opportunities for marginal purchasing. Customers do what customers want.

I certainly agree. No matter how hard any of us try, none of us really know what is going to happen in the future. I was a partner in a computer store some years ago. While things started out great, it became increasingly difficult to figure out the best way to keep solvent. It seemed like we were always just one step behind, and eventually we had to close up.

 

DMB said:

- Logos has several problems. They used a high-price/periodic-sale policy, which for many years seemed to work well. Unfortunately, folks are now trained for sales. And apparently that market is shrinking.

Simply put, figuring out how to support current customers while finding new customers is beyond my ability. We all have a number of ideas of things that might work; my hope is that whatever they do, it will work.

 

DMB said:

- The publisher side of the business appears to be unenthused about Logos renting. That's unfortunate. That'd be major.

While renting certainly seems to be an idea that could be beneficial, I suspect there are a number of users that would balk at that as well. That being said, there are a number of works that I could use temporarily, of which I am hesitant to pay the price for purchase.

 

DMB said:

- That leaves Lexham products and features.  Not a whole lot to work with.

I know that there have been some concerns about the speed at which Lexham products are produced.

Well, I have been waiting since 1946 (OK, I’m not that old) for the NICNT to release 2 Peter and Jude, but who's counting?[;)]

 

DMB said:

I don't doubt, they can dilly-dally around with Lexham and features. But their primary problem is Logos itself. Its complicatedness self-defines their future. They dug into too deep. The mobiles 'should' have been their door to the next-gen, but instead, they went for more complicatedness.

So now, they say subscriptions. To features. Which is fine. For a product that is inherently self-limited.  Dilly-dallying.

It does seem that the very thing that makes Logos so very beneficial to so many different types of people is the same thing that makes it difficult for others to use with ease.

This is one way in which I think subscriptions could be a benefit. Lower tiers could be created for less formal users with specific layouts created for specific books. Perhaps partnering with other media companies, (such as RightNow media for example) would allow tailor-made layouts for specific studies.

This is a great idea, and it seems like it could work.  I'm assuming that if you exercised your 100% discount, you'd then start back at 0% off with a new subscription.  This approach would allow people to get back in when they feel like there are compelling features drawing them back, and they can get off the train if they need to decrease their spending, without losing the new features.  I think the key to this approach will be separating feature sets from libraries.  

Like others have said, I'm not a fan of subscriptions, but there are some compelling advantages.  For example, a brand-new user can get in for a low monthly price, and avoid the potentially high start-up cost, depending on what books they want.  This could open up Logos to a whole new generation of users who might not have taken the chance otherwise.  

Another exciting possibility is that of church-based subscriptions, whereby a church could provide subscriptions to its members.  This could potentially be another great source of new users, and additionally, churches could train their members on Logos and not have to worry about what level each person may or may not have.

There's a whole new realm of things this could open up!

I've read through like 10 pages of this forum. And I think I see that Logos is heading towards a subscription future for financial reasons. I like Bill Coley's example of the company that develops the RAW image editing software for a subscription model and if I had my preference, it would be this route. Yet, I also remember reading on one of the first few pages of this forum that this would put more work on Logos and make it more complicated in coding. But my take is, if Logos is going to go the Subscription route after having a purchasable license route, then they need to do the work. Stop trying to go the cheap route. Make your product the best.

I am someone who likes to own what I am paying. Subscription is not owning, but theoretically renting. Once I stop paying, a.k.a. renting, I wouldn't get the features anymore. The problem with subscriptions is that every company seems to be going in that direction. If I want to do art, most programs now require a subscription; If I want to have a note-writing/storage application, most of the good ones now are subscriptions (unless you were blessed by being an early customer); if I want to have a fitness tracker these days, that usually requires a subscription. In fact, I own a farm as a ministry, there are now subscriptions for programs that help manage that stuff. My point is, if I pay subscriptions for everything electronic I use whether that be on my tablet, laptop, etc..I am looking at a lot of money. Sure, I can get all the "new features," but I'm not rich. I am a pastor at a small church. I am in ministry not for the money, but for the people. 

I have been using Logos to study God's Word, to create sermons, to create teaching opportunities, to help people know Jesus and live for him better. I want to keep that without worrying about my finances. If Logos goes only subscription for the new features, I foresee it will be a sting to its usefulness in the future. I only got the subscription to Logos Pro because I understand that AI is being outsourced and I understand the money involved in using that at the moment (though I'm sure this price will go up like everything else). I also want to see it use technology to its fullest for the advancement of the Kingdom. But besides that, if Logos can create features that are in-house...they should be able to be purchasable. As your customer, that is what I have gotten in the past and that is what I want now. I do not want to be paying for 1000 subscriptions to live in a technology age, I just want the program. If I want it to do something new, let me buy the updates.

If I've read the entire thread correctly, anyone that currently subscribes to Connect Essentials and does not separately own the Full Feature Set will eventually need to purchase a higher tier of Logos Pro to obtain the same datasets/features they currently enjoy under Connect Essentials. Is that correct?