Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos
Comments
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Jim Dean said:
Clearly, it is “bad faith” to sell “perpetual licenses” for “logos edition” resources which are supposed to be usable in far more powerful environment than typical ebook readers - and then later, charge rent for being able to ACCESS the built-in features of those books.
We hope, in good faith, that this is not the case for Faithlife with Logos. I am one who has already invested in a large library and would be devastated if this happened.
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"... And do not be grieved, for the joy of the LORD is your strength." (Ne 8.10)
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Jim Dean said:
Clearly, it is “bad faith” to sell “perpetual licenses” for “logos edition” resources which are supposed to be usable in far more powerful environment than typical ebook readers - and then later, charge rent for being able to ACCESS the built-in features of those books.
Hi Jim, I think you are conflating two different things, access to the features of the software, and access to the books in our library. Access to the books will still be possible using at a minimum the basic Logos free software engine. That is not in question. Access to the features is a very different matter. When we purchase a resource as a Logos Research Edition, we do not have a right to be able to use all the features of the software with that resources, we just have the availability to do so, if we have bought or subscribed to be able to use those features. We will always have access to our digital library, and we will always have the possibility of using the features of the software with those resources, but we don't necessarily have access to those features unless we have bought or subscribed separately.
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John Duffy said:Jim Dean said:
Clearly, it is “bad faith” to sell “perpetual licenses” for “logos edition” resources which are supposed to be usable in far more powerful environment than typical ebook readers - and then later, charge rent for being able to ACCESS the built-in features of those books.
Hi Jim, I think you are conflating two different things, access to the features of the software, and access to the books in our library. Access to the books will still be possible using at a minimum the basic Logos free software engine. That is not in question. Access to the features is a very different matter. When we purchase a resource as a Logos Research Edition, we do not have a right to be able to use all the features of the software with that resources, we just have the availability to do so, if we have bought or subscribed to be able to use those features. We will always have access to our digital library, and we will always have the possibility of using the features of the software with those resources, but we don't necessarily have access to those features unless we have bought or subscribed separately.
Hi John
I tried to be clear in my comment. I’m not “conflating” two things. The books that we’ve purchased “in perpetuity” *include* tagging and hypertext links etc (ie the “Logos Edition” and “Research Edition” stuff) which are an inherent part of that book’s content. Recently (in the context of history since the 90’s when I started), Logos has been “parsing“ the access to those features by requiring Gold or higher - this was NOT originally the case. I’m Portfolio in three traditions plus a lot of other packages (14k books, $28k invested). The basis on which those books were sold to me was that the features would be accessible.
Example: imagine buying a print book that has helpful appendices, and then after a few years the ink in the appendices disappear, section by section - and the publisher requires you to subscribe to an “ink restorer” doohickey to make it visible again.
The concern I and many others have expressed is that Logos will continue the pattern we’ve seen already in the past (ie their proven track record) of parsing out access to features and/or eliminating them and/or replacing them with alternative ones (without legacy support for the prior feature). This extant practice will most likely (from what I’ve read of Mark’s and Phil’s comments and emails) become even more aggressive as time goes on.
That is, what now “works” in non-subscription L10 Full Feature may not fully “work” a year or two or five from now, UNLESS the L10 Full Feature owner starts paying for subscriptions.
Imo, if that happens, it is a breach of faith and legally actionable. Time will tell.=============
Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
Hi Jim
Jim Dean said:Recently (in the context of history since the 90’s when I started), Logos has been “parsing“ the access to those features by requiring Gold or higher - this was NOT originally the case.
I don't quite understand this comment - could you clarify / expand please?
Are you saying, for example, that to make use of some of the features that the tagging of these books allow we need Gold or higher?
If so, are there any specific features you are thinking of?
Thanks, Graham
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Jim Dean said:
Hi John
I tried to be clear in my comment. I’m not “conflating” two things. The books that we’ve purchased “in perpetuity” *include* tagging and hypertext links etc (ie the “Logos Edition” and “Research Edition” stuff) which are an inherent part of that book’s content. Recently (in the context of history since the 90’s when I started), Logos has been “parsing“ the access to those features by requiring Gold or higher - this was NOT originally the case. I’m Portfolio in three traditions plus a lot of other packages (14k books, $28k invested). The basis on which those books were sold to me was that the features would be accessible.
Example: imagine buying a print book that has helpful appendices, and then after a few years the ink in the appendices disappear, section by section - and the publisher requires you to subscribe to an “ink restorer” doohickey to make it visible again.
The concern I and many others have expressed is that Logos will continue the pattern we’ve seen already in the past (ie their proven track record) of parsing out access to features and/or eliminating them and/or replacing them with alternative ones (without legacy support for the prior feature). This extant practice will most likely (from what I’ve read of Mark’s and Phil’s comments and emails) become even more aggressive as time goes on.
That is, what now “works” in non-subscription L10 Full Feature may not fully “work” a year or two or five from now, UNLESS the L10 Full Feature owner starts paying for subscriptions.
Imo, if that happens, it is a breach of faith and legally actionable. Time will tell.Hi Jim
I don't agree. The resources, such as print books, have page numbers, hyperlinks etc. which will work regardless of what features one has access to. Other resources like Bibles are not bought with inherent access to tagged information, but access to the tagged datasets is through purchasing to enable features that use them, depending on the level of Logos one has. Tagged datasets were never sold as part of a resource, as far as I am aware, but bought or subscribed to as part of feature sets.
Regarding the threat of legal action, my mind goes to what Paul teaches about that in 1 Cor 6. I'm not at all comfortable with the litigious approach that seems to run through this thread in some posts. Personally, I think that the company has made a fair promise, which it is fully on target to keep, regarding continuing access to the resources that we have purchased. The only concerns I have are whether moving to a subscription model will be the only option, or be relatively expensive for long-term users like you and I, or priced beyond some people's ability to afford them on a cost/benefit basis.
I've spent quite a sum on Logos too, so I'm in the same boat in terms of wanting to continue to be able to use it as well. I am personally waiting to see what will be put forward in due course. I see that a subscription model could attract a wide range of new users, who couldn't afford the steep cost of buying an expensive base package up front. But I'd like to see the subscription pricing set such that it is attractive for long term users, with the definite option of purchasing the complete feature set. I'm probably going to go for upgrading to the full feature set, since I don't see myself using AI, certainly not for sermon illustrations, questions etc. But I believe that the options put forward will take our views into good consideration.
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Graham Criddle said:
Hi Jim
Jim Dean said:Recently (in the context of history since the 90’s when I started), Logos has been “parsing“ the access to those features by requiring Gold or higher - this was NOT originally the case.
I don't quite understand this comment - could you clarify / expand please?
Are you saying, for example, that to make use of some of the features that the tagging of these books allow we need Gold or higher?
If so, are there any specific features you are thinking of?
Thanks, Graham
Hi Graham
You can check the Logos sales pages to see which features require Gold (or Silver, etc) to be active. Long ago, when I first started buying books from Logos (Libronix, then - on 3-1/4” then CD then DVD then download only) … at that time, tagging and hyperlinks and datasets were part of the features provided *with* the book purchases. Some books had more, some less, a few none (ie just readers) - a distinction which proves that the “features” are inherent parts of the book.
I can’t recall exactly when the “metal-levels” started, but IIRC, initially, there was no distinction in them as to active features - that came later, as The marketing folks in Logos realized they could “push” people to more expensive packages by “withholding“ features from the less expensive packages. That was imo somewhat distasteful (though it didn’t impact me since I always bought pricier packages), but it definitely differed from how Libronix / Logos first started - and the aegis under which they sold titles in those earlier days.
Some of the original features of the Libronix engine were lost entirely when the new format Logos engine appeared - I can’t list them all but definitely their original Series / Parallel tools for grouping books were replaced by less-versatile engines (I had several conversations with Bob P about this at that time).
Since then, there have been some tools (that I wasn’t using) which have been repeatedly mentioned in prior posts that were either withdrawn, or radically modified for the worse (Proclaim, Sermon Builder IIRC). I can’t give you specifics about that. The main point about these historic changes is that no “legacy” support was offered so people could keep using the earlier feature in lieu of or alongside the new one.
And THAT is my concern, moving forward. If Logos renovates, removes, or replaces EXTANT L10 features in the future, all the comments from Mark and Phil point to their intent to make those new/revised features (which don’t require cloud engine support such as AI does), to only be available through subscription.
What many people fail for understand is that all those non-AI-like future features will be coded into the downloaded engine that each user has on their device. The only thing the subscription does for those features is to “unlock” them - ie changing a code in a hidden config file to tell the program to make the feature(s) active or not. It’s a “marketing gimmick” - the code is already there in the device. It’s just a way of sucking money from the user - it’s not related to cloud-service costs such as AI queries entail.
I’m a programmer. I’ve used this kind of method before in products I’ve created. It’s simple and commonplace practice. The idea is to offer lower-priced versions for those who don’t want the full feature set. It’s how Logos activates various features between starter and bronze and silver and gold. When it’s offered as an upgrade one-time purchase, I think it’s reasonable coding and marketing practice. But when it requires subscription that doesn’t pay for ongoing cost of actual usage of the feature, then its just a way to suck money.
I have NO objection if Logos provides the L10 engine to this of us who’ve paid for gold or higher, and NEVER removes or disables or constricts the use of any of its extant features. But practically speaking (from a programming standpoint), that would mean any extra code for majorly-revised extant features would have to parallel extant code, not replace it. any programmer knows that is a nightmare to maintain.
So, on that basis, and on the basis of the declarations from Mark & Phil, I believe there is a 90%+ likelihood that within 1-5 years, some of the features in the current L10 engine will no longer be available (or will Be replaced by new-name features) … unless someone who now has the Full Feature Set starts paying a subscription. THAT is the only big concern I have. And it’s why I’ve repeatedly encouraged Logos to continue to offer “perpetual license feature upgrade packages” for those who want to purchase, not subscribe.=============
Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
John Duffy said:
Hi Jim
I don't agree. The resources, such as print books, have page numbers, hyperlinks etc. which will work regardless of what features one has access to. Other resources like Bibles are not bought with inherent access to tagged information, but access to the tagged datasets is through purchasing to enable features that use them, depending on the level of Logos one has. Tagged datasets were never sold as part of a resource, as far as I am aware, but bought or subscribed to as part of feature sets.
Regarding the threat of legal action, my mind goes to what Paul teaches about that in 1 Cor 6. I'm not at all comfortable with the litigious approach that seems to run through this thread in some posts. Personally, I think that the company has made a fair promise, which it is fully on target to keep, regarding continuing access to the resources that we have purchased. The only concerns I have are whether moving to a subscription model will be the only option, or be relatively expensive for long-term users like you and I, or priced beyond some people's ability to afford them on a cost/benefit basis.
I've spent quite a sum on Logos too, so I'm in the same boat in terms of wanting to continue to be able to use it as well. I am personally waiting to see what will be put forward in due course. I see that a subscription model could attract a wide range of new users, who couldn't afford the steep cost of buying an expensive base package up front. But I'd like to see the subscription pricing set such that it is attractive for long term users, with the definite option of purchasing the complete feature set. I'm probably going to go for upgrading to the full feature set, since I don't see myself using AI, certainly not for sermon illustrations, questions etc. But I believe that the options put forward will take our views into good consideration.
Re 1 Cor 6, my view is that its primary focus is that of believers suing believers. I would never had mentioned it but for the change in ownership to a secular organization. And I would hope that it never would be necessary. I personally have never sued anyone for anything. But pragmatically speaking, from a secular venture-capital firm‘s POV (which I believe is driving this switch to subscription), they should be aware of the potential massive class action that COULD be warranted, if they go too far with this idea.
As I said, only time will tell.I think we’ll need to agree to disagree on our POV about the tagging and hyperlinks and datasets - I believe that *full* access and use of those (which are integral to MANY of the logos engine features) is part of what I paid for in perpetuity when I bought the books. The clear evidence of this is the sales pages for each title, which describe the benefits of the Logos or Research editions. That’s what’s advertised. Federal truth in advertising law, and State bait and switch prohibitions, would seem to disallow removal of ANY of those features subsequent to purchase.
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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
Jim Dean said:
I can’t recall exactly when the “metal-levels” started, but IIRC, initially, there was no distinction in them as to active features - that came later, as The marketing folks in Logos realized they could “push” people to more expensive packages by “withholding“ features from the less expensive packages. That was imo somewhat distasteful (though it didn’t impact me since I always bought pricier packages), but it definitely differed from how Libronix / Logos first started - and the aegis under which they sold titles in those earlier days.
Everyone's concerns are fair, although I think some conclusions or assumptions are hasty before any formal announcement.
On the other hand, I just thought that I never read the terms of use when buying the Logos packages. Has anyone read them? This brings to mind what Amazon's Kindle carries or used to carry in its "contract", that you are not buying the book, but the "right of use", with the implication that when necessary it can stop its use as has already happened and is public knowledge mainly in the US.
Another thing I've just remembered is that the old Bible Works had a warning on its website that went something like this: 'we do not recommend buying large libraries of digital books because we don't know if the books bought today will be accessible with the technology of the future'. Does anyone remember that? To me it was a clear reference to Logos (which I wasn't using at the time). Ironically, it was Bible Works that closed down and its users were migrated to Logos.
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"... And do not be grieved, for the joy of the LORD is your strength." (Ne 8.10)
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Mark,
We've read that statement about books remaining freely accessible; however the underlying issue is the continued viability of the Logos engine. If all improvements are made to the subscription-based version, it would seem that those who elect not to subscribe will eventually be left with a license for an engine that no longer works with some future operating system or hardware platform version.
What I think we'd all like to hear is the position of the company on that. If we are content with the current feature set, can we anticipate that necessary technological updates will be made available as newer operating system and hardware platforms evolve?
Grace and peace to you.
Larry Eiss
LarryEiss.com0 -
Mark,
OK, I think you've addressed my earlier question. The answer is that Logos does not yet know what their stance will be on purchasable updates required to keep in step with operating system and hardware platform evolution.
You've asked for input on that. We want it. We need it.
Grace and peace to you.
Larry
LarryEiss.com0 -
Mark. I'm hoping Logos will have (at least introductory) tutorials on all of these new Pro features, as well as the upcoming Logos 11.
For years I subscribed to the Morris Proctor library for training. But they had a recent substantial price increase that put it out of my reach. Formerly, they had an option that allowed you to "rent" the library on a month-by-month basis, but now they've done away with that too.
After the death of Morris, the changes at MP Seminars have made the training service no longer accessible to me -- financially (and probably many others, too).
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I for one prefer future Purchasable Feature Sets.
I ended up with Logos because Word Search was purchased by Logos and to my surprise wow I really liked it. Now this. I have been reading through the this thread and well I understand the need to change but I will not want AI at all. I just want things to work like I read above and I don't want to pay any more subscriptions I want to own my software not rent it. So there is my input.
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Hi Mark,
I saw some responses to my previous post on this subject as well as responses to questions put forth by others.
But somehow I"m still unclear about some aspects and request a response ...
Sorry to be a bother, but some other questions please on a slightly different subject:Questions about the AI version of LOGOS called 'LOGOSPRO’…Some of the replies at the ‘forum’ were good.They clearly explained that LOGOSPRO features of search would be lost, etc.Later posts however caused me a bit of confusion on other related questions that I had regarding LOGOSPRO.So would you please clarify …(1) Having subscribed to LGOSPRO, should I unsubscribe from LOGOSPRO at a later date, [this might be necessary for various reasons such as lack of money for example, or it might occur 'virtually' as when I am at locations that lack internet access for example], will I, at those times automatically default to LOGOS 10 for the duration? YES or NO? I presume that the response is affirmative, but if LOGOS does not default to LOGOSPRO, then I have some serious concerns and will need to examine possibilities of 'work-arounds' (creating hard prints of notes for example).(2) Accessing my personal notes and my personal books:(a) Condition 1: My existing personal notes and my personal book are created using LOGOS 10. I presume that they will remain accessible in LOGSPRO. TRUE or FALSE?I think this logically is true. But this leads to my area of concern below ...(b) Condition 2: Personal notes and books created when using LOGOSPRO will NOT be accessible should the subscription lapse. TRUE or FALSE?.To clarify ...i. This situation may occur when internet facility is unavailable … hence the subscription has for that purpose 'virtually lapsed' even though the subscription is still actually subscribed to. Due to the non availablity of an internet connection, notes and books created under LOGOSPRO will however be inaccessible under the assumed default to LOGOS10. TRUE or FALSE?ii. Alternatively, the subscription has been either cancelled, or has not been renewed in actuality. Even in such conditions personal notes and books created using LOGOSPRO will be inaccessible under the assumed default to . TRUE or FALSE?iii. If the LOGOSPRO subscription lapses for any reason (virtual or real), the painful 'work-around' is to keep creating back-up notes and books, as 'word' documents, in *.docx format, which may be uploaded into LOGOS10 off line at will. TRUE or FALSE?Blessings,In Christ Jesus,Tony.0 -
Larry Eiss said:
Mark,
OK, I think you've addressed my earlier question
Which Mark?
Please use the Quote button to avoid ambiguity. You can edit the quoted text to the relevant part you are responding to.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Jack M. Tenney said:
I for one prefer future Purchasable Feature Sets.
Jack,
Responses go to the very end of the thread.
So it would help if you use the Quote button (you can edit the content to show what you are responding to - as I did here to show only the first sentence of your comment)
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Larry,
Mark (Logos) has not responded since 28 March, p.44 of this long thread, so will provide a (guarded) response; being familiar with the previous content of this thread.
Larry Eiss said:OK, I think you've addressed my earlier question. The answer is that Logos does not yet know what their stance will be on purchasable updates required to keep in step with operating system and hardware platform evolution.
QUOTE from earlier question:-
...
Larry Eiss said:...the underlying issue is the continued viability of the Logos engine. If all improvements are made to the subscription-based version, it would seem that those who elect not to subscribe will eventually be left with a license for an engine that no longer works with some future operating system or hardware platform version.
The software engine, Logos, will remain compatible with updates to supported OS (Mac and Windows). The user is responsible to keep their computer hardware up to date with supported versions of the OS. You will notice that the linked page is about "Free Support", and I'm fairly sure that Faithlife will continue with that policy if you choose not to subscribe. They will want you to continue buying Books, and the engine sometimes needs updates to support particular books, or provide fixes/updates to the text.
The engine only allows access to features for which you are licensed, whether you are an owner or a subscriber. So you won't be left with a crippled engine.
Note that the situation for future new users coming off subscription is uncertain. But it is natural to assume that they will only invest in books if they have assurances about life after subscription.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Amen brother! The benefits of long sustained rigorous thought are so quickly being forsaken by convenience and technology... it seems to me.
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Jim Dean said:
I believe that *full* access and use of those (which are integral to MANY of the logos engine features) is part of what I paid for in perpetuity when I bought the books.
Hi Jim
I come from Libronix too. I still miss the function which allowed you to make your own timeline. You mean functions like these should still be available?
Years ago, there was some discussion around here about how many features we Logos users miss from Libronix. Thanks!
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I hope there is a Faithlife resolve to maintain all the existing features and functions of at least the L10 desktop application. When new cloud provided features and capabilities begin to conflict (or be limited by) the technology on the desktop, I don't want to see those local features moved to the cloud or suffer a lack of functionality. Not everyone wants to or needs to be connected 100% of the time, nor should they be relegated to that when studying the Word... IMHO
Thanks for producing & supporting a great product and your consideration.
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Agreed. I'm happy with the desktop application and the offline functionality that it provides. I want to be able to utilize all that offline functionality without being required to be online for any of it.
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Agreed. I'm happy with the desktop application and the offline functionality that it provides. I want to be able to utilize all that offline functionality without being required to be online for any of it.
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Agreed. I'm happy with the desktop application and the offline functionality that it provides. I want to be able to utilize all that offline functionality without being required to be online for any of it.
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Agreed. I'm happy with the desktop application and the offline functionality that it provides. I want to be able to utilize all that offline functionality without being required to be online for any of it.
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I am pretty sure it will continue until it's deprecated.
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Hello! How does this subscription work with Church Toolkit and the features for pastors that are inclluded?
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Jeff Rodrigues said:
I'm happy with the desktop application and the offline functionality that it provides. I want to be able to utilize all that offline functionality without being required to be online for any of it.
You do have to be online to verify your account the first time you put Logos on a new computer, but after that, you should be able to use it offline indefinitely. I have a laptop that has not been online for a number of months and everything still works great. No, I don't get the updates, but that's fine with me. I'm happy with how it functions and my library. My desktop is always online, so I do update Logos there regularly.
I know this wasn't your question, but according to one of Mark's comment somewhere in this thread, the subscription model will likely require someone to sign in periodically, but it will be able to be used offline too.
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I don't know if anyone is keeping track, but is this the largest thread in the Logos forums? [:D]
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Ronald Quick said:
I don't know if anyone is keeping track, but is this the largest thread in the Logos forums?
The Linux thread has this one beat by quite a bit still ;-)
Senior Publisher Relations Specialist • Logos Bible Software • Rick.Mansfield@logos.com
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Ronald Quick said:Jeff Rodrigues said:
I'm happy with the desktop application and the offline functionality that it provides. I want to be able to utilize all that offline functionality without being required to be online for any of it.
You do have to be online to verify your account the first time you put Logos on a new computer, but after that, you should be able to use it offline indefinitely. I have a laptop that has not been online for a number of months and everything still works great. No, I don't get the updates, but that's fine with me. I'm happy with how it functions and my library. My desktop is always online, so I do update Logos there regularly.
I know this wasn't your question, but according to one of Mark's comment somewhere in this thread, the subscription model will likely require someone to sign in periodically, but it will be able to be used offline too.
My copy on my Mac had issues launching with my Pro trial active and with my Internet connection dropping during the launch. I filed a thread about it and willing to perform some more tests in case there's a tweak that needs to be done there. Should be simple though.
Dr. Nathan Parker
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Jim Dean said:
I can’t recall exactly when the “metal-levels” started, but IIRC, initially, there was no distinction in them as to active features - that came later, as The marketing folks in Logos realized they could “push” people to more expensive packages by “withholding“ features from the less expensive packages. That was imo somewhat distasteful (though it didn’t impact me since I always bought pricier packages), but it definitely differed from how Libronix / Logos first started - and the aegis under which they sold titles in those earlier days.
You are mistaken in this perspective of books and "features", and I'm not going to debate the "earlier days". Logos 10 Features are packaged independently as Feature Upgrades/Feature Sets. If you purchased features in conjunction with a Book Package, you are not limited to just those features. So it is nonsense to claim that Features are "withheld" from less expensive Book packages when both relate to the perceived needs of users at different "levels". And don't forget that Feature Sets come with books.
Books are tagged or indexed appropriately, together with metadata. These inherent attributes will affect the Features with which they can interact, and determine their classification as Research editions, Reader editions or Ebooks.
Certain Features are enhanced by tagging of books e.g. Topic Guide benefits from the Logos Controlled Vocabulary (LCV) dataset which aligns different names for the same topic in Bible Dictionaries. Most, if not all, bible-related datasets do not require tagging as they are aligned to different bibles via the Reverse Interlinear feature (for original language words) or their versification. The datasets and Interlinears are usually purchased via Feature Sets.
Jim Dean said:What many people fail for understand is that all those non-AI-like future features will be coded into the downloaded engine that each user has on their device. The only thing the subscription does for those features is to “unlock” them - ie changing a code in a hidden config file to tell the program to make the feature(s) active or not. It’s a “marketing gimmick” - the code is already there in the device. It’s just a way of sucking money from the user - it’s not related to cloud-service costs such as AI queries entail.
As a former Libronix user and programmer you would know that Features were packaged as Add-ons, which needed to be separately installed and uninstalled. So how can you state that the Logos "locking" and "unlocking" is a marketing gimmick and insinuate that it is a way of sucking money from the user? Users choose what they need and only care that the Features are made available to them.
Certain Features (or functions of same) require Internet access and there are costs associated with executing code on Servers. AI is one of them, but whether or not it justifies a subscription is not for this discussion.
Jim Dean said:I have NO objection if Logos provides the L10 engine to this of us who’ve paid for gold or higher, and NEVER removes or disables or constricts the use of any of its extant features. But practically speaking (from a programming standpoint), that would mean any extra code for majorly-revised extant features would have to parallel extant code, not replace it. any programmer knows that is a nightmare to maintain.
So, on that basis, and on the basis of the declarations from Mark & Phil, I believe there is a 90%+ likelihood that within 1-5 years, some of the features in the current L10 engine will no longer be available (or will Be replaced by new-name features) … unless someone who now has the Full Feature Set starts paying a subscription. THAT is the only big concern I have. And it’s why I’ve repeatedly encouraged Logos to continue to offer “perpetual license feature upgrade packages” for those who want to purchase, not subscribe.Well, I've never paid for Gold or higher (except for Full Features) but I would be upset if FL left me with the "L10 engine" as both engine and Features need to remain compatible with OS updates. I agree with your "90% likelihood", as that is no different to what has happened in the past. So I don't understand the connection to Full Feature Set given that you want a "perpetual" license for Feature upgrade packages.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Hi Bruce. I'm advised by MPSeminars that the monthly subscription is still available. See https://mpseminars.com/shop/Bruce Cullom Sr. said:Mark. I'm hoping Logos will have (at least introductory) tutorials on all of these new Pro features, as well as the upcoming Logos 11.
For years I subscribed to the Morris Proctor library for training. But they had a recent substantial price increase that put it out of my reach. Formerly, they had an option that allowed you to "rent" the library on a month-by-month basis, but now they've done away with that too.
After the death of Morris, the changes at MP Seminars have made the training service no longer accessible to me -- financially (and probably many others, too).
They also have a "grandfathering" policy for old subscribers.
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Dave Hooton said:Jim Dean said:
I have NO objection if Logos provides the L10 engine to this of us who’ve paid for gold or higher, and NEVER removes or disables or constricts the use of any of its extant features. But practically speaking (from a programming standpoint), that would mean any extra code for majorly-revised extant features would have to parallel extant code, not replace it. any programmer knows that is a nightmare to maintain.
So, on that basis, and on the basis of the declarations from Mark & Phil, I believe there is a 90%+ likelihood that within 1-5 years, some of the features in the current L10 engine will no longer be available (or will Be replaced by new-name features) … unless someone who now has the Full Feature Set starts paying a subscription. THAT is the only big concern I have. And it’s why I’ve repeatedly encouraged Logos to continue to offer “perpetual license feature upgrade packages” for those who want to purchase, not subscribe.Well, I've never paid for Gold or higher (except for Full Features) but I would be upset if FL left me with the "L10 engine" as both engine and Features need to remain compatible with OS updates. I agree with your "90% likelihood", as that is no different to what has happened in the past. So I don't understand the connection to Full Feature Set given that you want a "perpetual" license for Feature upgrade packages.
The problem with this Dave, besides the continued false advertising of owning Features forever - is that without perpetual licenses; users will be forced into subscriptions contrary to Mark's initial post that users would not be forced to subscribe to use Logos. Then in response to my question he stated clearly that as of now improved Features would be behind the subscription, unless a purchase option is offered. So if I own the L10 Feature Set and all those Features get improved, false advertising aside, I will no longer have access without sunscribing per Mark's own statement and noone from Faithlife has addressed this in the weeks since. They refuse to contact any of us that have multiple requests for a phone call from someone who has any kind of insight. Faithlife may have always falsely advertised owning your features forever in the past as well and charged users for Features they already owned under new names, but now we potentially risk being forced into a subscription to have anything more than an ereader interface. Logos Bible Software is beginning to look more like a timeshare with that mindset - you "own" it, but not without ongoing fees, charges and restrictions added after the purchase.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Jack M. Tenney:I for one prefer future Purchasable Feature Sets.Jack,
Responses go to the very end of the thread.
So it would help if you use the Quote button (you can edit the content to show what you are responding to - as I did here to show only the first sentence of your comment)
Dave
Dave thanks for your suggestion and i know this will go to last page but I cannot find a Quote Button. Please someone help.
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Jack M. Tenney said:
but I cannot find a Quote Button. Please someone help.
It is available at the bottom of the post you are replying to:
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Jim Dean said:
It’s up to whatever the new ownership chooses.
Yes, but within the limitations of what the publishers will allow.
If publishers allow their resources to be sold at a lower price, then that devalues the resources of existing owners that purchased those resources at a higher price.
But many publishers simply will not allow it. Biblical and Theological publishing is not a mass market. I am guessing that many publishers are also going to demand a big chunk of "subscription" revenue, so the subscription packages will always contain old/cheap/free resources ... combined with resources that Logos owns.
And without top resources to work with, how valuable could AI generated reports be to anyone? I'm not sure AI deserves all the hype. But Logos has to do it to remain at the top of the Bible software market. If they do not do it, competitors will.
I view this AI hype as a fad which will die out once people become accustomed to its problems and limitations. Remember 20 years ago when the hype was that we would all be in self-driving cars now?
I just hope they do not ruin the desktop platform for those who still want to do real work using traditional methods.
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John said:
I view this AI hype as a fad which will die out once people become accustomed to its problems and limitations. Remember 20 years ago when the hype was that we would all be in self-driving cars now?
I'm not referring to AI in general but to how Logos are using it in the contet of the current Logos Pro offerings.
It enables users to, for example, get good quality (not perrfect) search results from natural language queries returning some of the most relevant articles that we own (or are in the Logos catalog). It also provides the ability to quickly summarise articles - or search results.
With this being available now - and likely to improve - I doubt if it is going to die out, I expect the value will increase and people will start finding it more useful.
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Graham Criddle said:
It enables users to, for example, get good quality (not perrfect) search results from natural language queries returning some of the most relevant articles that we own (or are in the Logos catalog).
Does it return results from everything in the Logos catalog? My limited understanding is that paying the subscription only gives access to ~400 resources.
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John said:
Does it return results from everything in the Logos catalog? My limited understanding is that paying the subscription only gives access to ~400 resources.
The approx 400 resources are resources that are added to the library that you can read and make use of while you continue with the subscription. They are not the scope of what is searched.
With the subscription:
- An All Search will search the entire Logos catalog and suggest most relevant results for your search - including the ability to summarise results even for those books you don’t own
- A Books Search will do the same but just for books you own (or a subset of those books if you wish)
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Graham Criddle said:
A Books Search will do the same but just for books you own (or a subset of those books if you wish)
Just for clarity given the current forum climate - isn't it books you have licenses for - permanent or temporary?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Graham Criddle said:
A Books Search will do the same but just for books you own (or a subset of those books if you wish)
Just for clarity given the current forum climate - isn't it books you have licenses for - permanent or temporary?
Yes.
Pastor, Immanuel Evangelical-Lutheran Church (LCMS), Alexandria, VA
Vice President, The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod (East-Southeast Region)
Author of (Dis)ordered: Lies about Human Nature and the Truth That Sets Us Free
Personal website: Esgetology
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For what it's worth, I would really like there to continue to be the option to purchase feature sets, and libraries. The last thing I need in my life is another subscription, and I value Logos/Verbum a lot in my workflow. I would hate to have to phase it out due to needing a subscription for the software to work properly across multiple devices as it does now.
It seems like every company is bullying their customers into subscriptions these days with the promise of "new and improved" content/feature on a regular basis. I think there should always be a way to opt out of this, especially for those who have invested heavily into Logos in the past.
If the main "feature" that the subscription model is enabling is the use of AI, I'll humbly pass on the opportunity. I don't need AI to think/summarize/interpret/write for me. Please leave options to purchase feature/date sets and libraries. I am happy to "miss out on all the AI and cloud-backed features along with regular updates." Thank you.
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Frank Sauer said:
The problem with this Dave, besides the continued false advertising of owning Features forever - is that without perpetual licenses; users will be forced into subscriptions contrary to Mark's initial post that users would not be forced to subscribe to use Logos.
I think FL are well aware of the dilemma, especially as they would want to continue selling Books to a well established and varied user base. We can't prevent the enhancement of features, we can only trust that any AI component does not replace the existing functionality as with Sermon Builder and (especially) Search, where FL could continue to offer the Feature for purchase. AI features like Insights and Summarize (for Books) would not be available for purchase given the current understanding.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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...there are a few tools and datasets in Connect and Preaching Suite that aren’t in Logos Pro but will be in another tier of the subscription. Most of the books in Logos Pro are different from those included in the existing subscriptions.
Is there a place where we can compare in detail what these differences are/will be?
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Scott E. Heitshusen said:
Is there a place where we can compare in detail what these differences are/will be?
Not that I am aware. You might look at the difference between Silver Features and Full Features,
As a guide, here is a zipped csv file of 106 books that are new to me and not in Connect, which means that I own 300+ of the books in Pro.
If you can open in Excel, it will be better presented.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Hello Everyone,
I decided I would comment on this thread so that I could share with Faithlife my deep concerns and sadness about a subscription service. Personally I do not use subscription services. I do not need a re-occurring monthly bill especially with state of the economy. I was laid off in October from an IT position as a Project Manager. You never know what the future holds, so having to decide what to spend your limited resources on especially when you do not have a job should not be something you have to think of when it relates to your devotional time and preparing Home Group / Sunday School lessons.
As many others have said on this thread I have no issue with Faithlife creating a subscription service as one option while letting others continue to purchase upgrades/features as well. But I think they should really focus on their customers. I will generalize a bit, but Christians are not normally as wealthy as some other groups especially in other countries. I do not think it is a wise choice to make an absolute switch to subscriptions when a decent size group of their customers may not have the funds to keep a subscription going.
I'm not sure if Faithlife is public or private company and I have no issues with a company needing to make a profit to stay in business. But I do think companies that focus on a Christian Worldview and make a tool that helps the great commission should be held to a high standard on stewardship and meeting the needs of their customers. For example in Mark's post he says this subscription change is needed to keep the business running. Well for how long has Faithlife been running toward the negative? What other things have they done to avoid a subscription service or was this just the decision they leapt to? Why do they think we need AI tools. I absolutely see no need in AI tools or the extra cost it is bringing to Faithlife. I use AI in IT and Project Management related activities, so I understand it a bit, but do not see the value especially by creating costs for Faithlife and the customer. Just because the industry is excited about AI, doesn't mean it is needed in Logos.
I have a growing number of questions about the future of my Logos application and library. A lot of things say we retain our books, but what is the mechanism for reading them. If they are just made available in an ebook reader style of application I will feel absolutely ripped off. When I selected resources to purchase in Logos it was because of the tools and linking it provided to those resources. If I had known this functionality would be moved to a subscription model to retain its use I would never have started down the Logos path. I could have easily kept buying paper books or used Amazon Kindle. Often the Kindle version is cheaper than the Logos version.
Some questions I have that truly trouble me:
- If we do not subscribe will book updates for typos issues and tagging still be pushed to us?
- Will we still be able to use our resources across devices and desktops without a subscription? I use it broadly across my devices, so would be extremely disappointed to lose this functionality.
- What will happen to our existing Logos version we are using? For example, I have Logos 10 with full features, will it remain fully functional as it stands or get deprecated? Will it get bug fixes still? If so for how long? Will an update remove or limit functionality without a subscription? Will we be notified to this change so we can decide not to install that update?
- If our version of Logos whether 8, 9 ,or 10 remains fully functional will all books added to Logos still be supported? Will changes from AI impact the resources and cause them to no longer function with our current version without a subscription?
I know I have and will have more questions as Faithlife decides the path forward, but for now I will end by reiterating I will not participate in a subscription service and will be completely demoralized by Faithlife if they limit my existing functionality over a subscription model.
It is an interesting discussion since we want to use this software to reach others for Christ and make a difference in our walk each day. We wish to be a group of believers that shares some unity, but I sure hope Faithlife makes a choice that puts Christ first on how their tools can be used across the globe for His glory.
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Paul Green said:
If our version of Logos whether 8, 9 ,or 10 remains fully functional will all books added to Logos still be supported? Will changes from AI impact the resources and cause them to no longer function with our current version without a subscription?
Paul Green said:Some questions I have that truly trouble me:
- If we do not subscribe will book updates for typos issues and tagging still be pushed to us?
There is no reason to suppose otherwise however armageddon is always a possibility.
Paul Green said:Will we still be able to use our resources across devices and desktops without a subscription? I use it broadly across my devices, so would be extremely disappointed to lose this functionality.
There is not reason to suppose otherwise however all bets are off should you arbitrarily change your devices
Paul Green said:What will happen to our existing Logos version we are using?
Nothing
Paul Green said:I have Logos 10 with full features, will it remain fully functional as it stands or get deprecated?
The two options are not mutually exclusive. There is every reason to suppose that (I assume you mean Logos version 33) will remain fully functional and also, as versions emerge it will become deprecated.
Paul Green said:Will it get bug fixes still? If so for how long?
To all intents and purposes Logos version 33 will get bug fixes by becoming Logos 34 or at least that has been the habit so far.
Paul Green said:Will an update remove or limit functionality without a subscription?
There is no reason to assume it will.
Paul Green said:If our version of Logos whether 8, 9 ,or 10 remains fully functional will all books added to Logos still be supported? Will changes from AI impact the resources and cause them to no longer function with our current version without a subscription?
There is no reason to think that your version of Logos whether 32, 33 or whatever will not allow books to be added although additional tagging may not be accessible if one does not upgrade the engine.
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Mike Binks said:Paul Green said:
Will an update remove or limit functionality without a subscription?
There is no reason to assume it will.
There is no reason to assume it won't, history is scattered with lost functionality in the Logos system and you are ignoring this direct statement to the contrary of yours from Mark....
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Frank Sauer said:If we already paid for a feature and it gets improvements - will the updated feature only be available to those who subscribe? If so, doesn't that punish early adopters as you mentioned???
If we update an L8 feature (for example), those improvements are likely to be available only to people who subscribe (or who purchase an upgrade, if we offer that), especially if those improvements significantly enhance the feature. There will be exceptions to that, but that will be the general rule. I don't think that harms early adopters who will have had at least four years of great value out of the feature, and may well have many more.
I think it would punish early adopters if we sold a new feature, and then six or twelve weeks later offered a better version.
The fact is - Logos has a checkered history in honoring that you never lose access to a Feature you own. They have deprecated some, renamed and then sold as new and now with Mark's statement - it's clear they have no desire to actually honor the "forever" sales pitch. Worse yet, those improvements may only be available as a rental/subscription.
So until Faithlife states clearly that they WILL finally honor the FOREVER sales pitch, we are stuck waiting on their decision of whether they care about customer feedback and will at least continue to offer purchases of Features. Once they actually figure out what this difficult business decison outcome will be, maybe we can actually start getting answers to these question that have honesty and clarity.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Frank, I'll play stupid, and ask, where does this 'forever' come from (source quote). I only ask, since businesses use that word, knowing full well, it can't be delivered. And Christians normally associate 'forever', with non-earthly pleasures.
Mark, I notice, sticks with 'foreseeable future', which means maybe 2-3 years or so.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
Frank, I'll play stupid, and ask, where does this 'forever' come from (source quote). I only ask, since businesses use that word, knowing full well, it can't be delivered. And Christians normally associate 'forever', with non-earthly pleasures.
Mark, I notice, sticks with 'foreseeable future', which means maybe 2-3 years or so.
https://www.logos.com/ways-to-upgrade - see the statement under Option 2 Feature Upgrade (Option 1 also says that you will don't lose anything you owned in previous versions)
Add to that, a user posted notes from a Webinar that Mark stated:
Paul Gibson said:Today I watched the webinar "Discover More with Logos: Feature Updates". Mark Barnes addressed some questions about subscriptions starting about 42:30, but the whole webinar is worth watching.
My takeaways:
1. Subscriptions will allow Faithlife to release new features to subscribers faster, rather than the historical 2 year release cycle.
2. Investments in books are safe. You won't need a subscription to access books you've purchased.
3. You won't lose access to your existing feature sets even without a subscription.
4. Logos will continue selling books.
5. Software updates will be available even to people who don't subscribe.
6. Faithlife is still considering options to allow non-subscribers to get some new features. The answer was vague, but he acknowledged there have been discussions about it.
I recommend watching the whole webinar and posting your thoughts on the Faithlife forums and/or Facebook groups. I'm hoping the more people that comment on a topic, the more seriously Faithlife will take it. I would put comments about subscriptions and AI in the General forum:
https://community.logos.com/forums/77.aspx
Suggestions for new features or improving existing features should go into the Feedback site. Before posting a new item, please search the site for similar requests and vote for them.
Please comment frequently!
Whenever I dealt with Sales on Upgrade options, the mantra has been the same as long as I can remember - any books and features that you purchase will not be lost....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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I personally wouldn't have used the word "forever" in that marketing copy, but there are two main ways I see of interpreting it:
- You receive a permanent license to the feature. It's not a rental or a subscription. If you buy Logos 8 Gold today but Logos 9 Bronze in two years, you don't lose the feature because you "downgraded"; instead, your license rolls into the next major version of the software (and dynamic pricing means you never pay for it twice). Maybe some features do eventually get deprecated, but we have sold you a permanent license to a downloadable copy of the software and you can keep running it on an air-gapped VM for the rest of your life.
- You have made a one-time purchase of the "platonic ideal" of a particular feature, and Logos will upgrade and enhance that feature to be compatible with all future computing devices and operating systems yet without changing the core nature of the feature in ways that could be considered deprecating or obsoleting. Logos will also throw in various improvements to the feature for free without requiring any additional payment for those improvements. This will continue forever, including past the Resurrection and the Final Judgment.
I think you're expecting (2) and are upset that the company's position is (1); is that an accurate summary? (And if (2) doesn't encapsulate your position, then perhaps you could state exactly what you do think should be included in "forever" ownership of a feature?)
Almost everything you've bought in the past can be run forever if you freeze the software at the version you bought it at (and make an offline backup of your licenses). (There are some features that do require an online dataset to run and I agree we shouldn't be promising literal "forever" access to those because that's not within our power to provide.)
Frank Sauer said:They have deprecated some, renamed and then sold as new
If you're claiming that Logos Sermon Builder is nothing more than a renamed LDLS Sermon File Addin, then I submit that you're arguing in extremely bad faith. Literally the only thing in common between the two products is the word "Sermon" in the title (and, I suppose, the target market).
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