Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos
Comments
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michael franklin said:
I'm writing with feedback that you requested in your post and a couple questions regarding subscriptions. You said "We’re still thinking through what that means for purchasable feature sets, and we’d value your feedback on whether the option to purchase would be important to you." I think the Legacy Fallback is a great solution. I regularly use sermon builder and sermon manager and am glad I own them as I have fully integrated with these and would want to know I own them for the long term, even if I stop subscription (I assume items like these are included). This is one reason I bought the full feature set and I would recommend to others who are only starting with Logos after transition. One question. I asked one a Logos affiliate whether there will be any free monthly books life Faithlife connect and they said Pro includes a 4th extra free book of the month (not from Classics series). Where do I access this? They also said subscription includes 5% storewide discount and 5% annual cash back. Are these automatically applied? Thanks!
It might be a good idea, but two years? I'm pretty sure that in light of what's on offer, I can't even find the motivation to sustain this subscription for that long consecutively, never mind the budget considerations. I'm not sure this means the best thing for consumers or as a business model. I've never been crazy about what seems to me like a "three sizes fit some" subscription model. The lack of involved seems to be the basis for justifying this, and indeed, the basis for this. We don't even know what the company is going to want to do when two years is over.
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michael franklin said:
I asked one a Logos affiliate whether there will be any free monthly books life Faithlife connect and they said Pro includes a 4th extra free book of the month (not from Classics series). Where do I access this? They also said subscription includes 5% storewide discount and 5% annual cash back. Are these automatically applied? Thanks!
Right now, the subscription is still in the early access period. Not all the perks will be available until the subscription launches fully in the fall.
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Mark,
When using the subscription, how much of Logos can't you use when the Internet goes down, or if you are in an area with poor reception?
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Dale Earp said:
Mark,
When using the subscription, how much of Logos can't you use when the Internet goes down, or if you are in an area with poor reception?
On desktop, the vast majority works offline, assuming you have all your books downloaded. Mobile is heavily limited when offline.
You can open the Help Manual and use CTRL+F to find the text "[Net]" to find features that require an internet connection. A quick look at that suggests:
- Sharing documents
- Popular highlights
- Factbook tags (except those in Bibles)
- Most media
- Print library
- Fuzzy search
- Atlas
- Bible Browser
- Morph query documents
- Text Comparison Interlinear mode
- All AI features
- Smart search
- Summarize
- Synopsis
- Sermon Assistant
- Translation
There may be a few more not documented, but that's certainly most of what requires a connection.
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Dale Earp said:
When using the subscription, how much of Logos can't you use when the Internet goes down, or if you are in an area with poor reception?
In addition, your application will need to run online once each time your subscription renews (whatever your renewal period is) in order to download the updated licenses. Without those updated licenses, the application will not know that you still have a license to any of the features, datasets, or books included in the subscription.
Andrew Batishko | Logos software developer
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Dale Earp said:
Mark,
When using the subscription, how much of Logos can't you use when the Internet goes down, or if you are in an area with poor reception?
On desktop, the vast majority works offline, assuming you have all your books downloaded. Mobile is heavily limited when offline.
You can open the Help Manual and use CTRL+F to find the text "[Net]" to find features that require an internet connection. A quick look at that suggests:
- Sharing documents
- Popular highlights
- Factbook tags (except those in Bibles)
- Most media
- Print library
- Fuzzy search
- Atlas
- Bible Browser
- Morph query documents
- Text Comparison Interlinear mode
- All AI features
- Smart search
- Summarize
- Synopsis
- Sermon Assistant
- Translation
There may be a few more not documented, but that's certainly most of what requires a connection.
Mark! I have a related question. Going forward, you've said that the Legacy License associated with the subscription would only include non-cloud (and non-AI) features. Is a feature that requires internet - from the list above - considered a "cloud" feature? The reason I am asking is that we will then get an idea of what is considered a cloud feature as per Logos.
Even better, will you please explicitly mention with every new feature that you introduce over the next 2 years through subscription - whether it is a cloud feature or not? I plan to subscribe once I see sufficient new cloud features that excite me (at present, AI features are not an attraction to me.)
Thank you.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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1Cor10 31 said:
Mark! I have a related question. Going forward, you've said that the Legacy License associated with the subscription would only include non-cloud (and non-AI) features. Is a feature that requires internet - from the list above - considered a "cloud" feature?
Yes. NET = 'cloud'. But if you own the (L10) feature you will not lose its cloud access e.g. Morph Query.
Perhaps the biggest unknown going forward from L10 is how many features will be independent of the cloud and AI. Within the next two years I would like to see see a realistic "Fallback" license with a small ongoing charge for cloud and AI.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
Perhaps the biggest unknown going forward from L10 is how many features will be independent of the cloud and AI.
Bad on humor, but the more cloud'ies they do, the more you must subscribe. Hmm.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Dave Hooton said:
1Cor10 31">Mark! I have a related question. Going forward, you've said that the Legacy License associated with the subscription would only include non-cloud (and non-AI) features. Is a feature that requires internet - from the list above - considered a "cloud" feature?
Yes. NET = 'cloud'. But if you own the (L10) feature you will not lose its cloud access e.g. Morph Query.
Perhaps the biggest unknown going forward from L10 is how many features will be independent of the cloud and AI. Within the next two years I would like to see see a realistic "Fallback" license with a small ongoing charge for cloud and AI.
Thank you Dave.
My question for Mark is: will they mark clearly each and every feature that is being introduced over the next 2 years as a cloud feature or not. They should know it right at the outset. The question is whether they want to make it clear to the customers upfront.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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1Cor10 31 said:
My question for Mark is: will they mark clearly each and every feature that is being introduced over the next 2 years as a cloud feature or not.
I second this, and many others have as well. It should come as no surprise that with the Fallback License being restricted to certain features, clear, consistent, and ongoing communication will be required. The clearest form of communication in my opinion would be to have a specific category for Fallback License, regarding whether a feature is covered under the license or not. Cloud characteristics can be ambiguous. Some features make light use of the cloud. Others make heavy use of the cloud. One would expect those that fall in the latter category to not be covered by the License, but what about the former? Where does one draw the line? Customers shouldn't have to wonder. It should be made clear for every feature whether it is or will be covered under the Fallback License. And, like you pointed out, for the majority of cases I would expect this to be apparent relatively early on in the developing process.
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1Cor10 31 said:
My question for Mark is: will they mark clearly each and every feature that is being introduced over the next 2 years as a cloud feature or not. They should know it right at the outset. The question is whether they want to make it clear to the customers upfront.
I hope to have a list of probable exclusions relatively shortly, and I'll do my best to keep that up to date as new features are developed.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
1Cor10 31">My question for Mark is: will they mark clearly each and every feature that is being introduced over the next 2 years as a cloud feature or not. They should know it right at the outset. The question is whether they want to make it clear to the customers upfront.
I hope to have a list of probable exclusions relatively shortly, and I'll do my best to keep that up to date as new features are developed.
Thank you for this. I see this as critical to keep trust with the community. I currently have faith in FL that they are doing things in a way that both is profitable and for the Glory of God.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
1Cor10 31">My question for Mark is: will they mark clearly each and every feature that is being introduced over the next 2 years as a cloud feature or not. They should know it right at the outset. The question is whether they want to make it clear to the customers upfront.
I hope to have a list of probable exclusions relatively shortly, and I'll do my best to keep that up to date as new features are developed.
Thank you so very much, Mark.
Removing uncertainty should help bring more customers to the firm.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
1Cor10 31">My question for Mark is: will they mark clearly each and every feature that is being introduced over the next 2 years as a cloud feature or not. They should know it right at the outset. The question is whether they want to make it clear to the customers upfront.
I hope to have a list of probable exclusions relatively shortly, and I'll do my best to keep that up to date as new features are developed.
Considering the fact that this list has still not been provided - will the Last Chance Sale be extended? From the bits of released information, there is still some question on whether a user would be better off purchasing the Full Feature Set now or just subscribing for the Fallback License.
Allowing your users some time to make that decision with the knowledge of what is to gain and what could be lost pertaining to purchasing or not purchasing the FFS would show that Logos cares about the customer. Expecting customers to make such a decision while not providing key information to do so - not so much.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Dave Hooton said:
1Cor10 31">Mark! I have a related question. Going forward, you've said that the Legacy License associated with the subscription would only include non-cloud (and non-AI) features. Is a feature that requires internet - from the list above - considered a "cloud" feature?
Yes. NET = 'cloud'. But if you own the (L10) feature you will not lose its cloud access e.g. Morph Query.
Perhaps the biggest unknown going forward from L10 is how many features will be independent of the cloud and AI. Within the next two years I would like to see see a realistic "Fallback" license with a small ongoing charge for cloud and AI.
If you're pointing to an offering of Fallback eligible features only - I suggested it multiple times and thus far the only response I've seen is that a customer would miss out on the books and AI features.... When in response I asked what about the customer that wouldn't be interested in the borrowed books and AI features - no response....
Offering either the traditional purchase option or a variation of Fallback that doesn't include the "extras" would be a smart move IMHO - more customers staying engaged and continuing should not be a problem for the company...
A simple cloud/AI subscription addon would be a good option, considering Mark already mentioned another addon subscription available for journals - you would think the system would limit that as an option.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Frank Sauer said:Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
1Cor10 31">My question for Mark is: will they mark clearly each and every feature that is being introduced over the next 2 years as a cloud feature or not. They should know it right at the outset. The question is whether they want to make it clear to the customers upfront.
I hope to have a list of probable exclusions relatively shortly, and I'll do my best to keep that up to date as new features are developed.
Considering the fact that this list has still not been provided - will the Last Chance Sale be extended? From the bits of released information, there is still some question on whether a user would be better off purchasing the Full Feature Set now or just subscribing for the Fallback License.
Allowing your users some time to make that decision with the knowledge of what is to gain and what could be lost pertaining to purchasing or not purchasing the FFS would show that Logos cares about the customer. Expecting customers to make such a decision while not providing key information to do so - not so much.
Since there has been silence on the multiple requests by multiple forum users in relation to providing information about what features are and are not going to be eligible for the Fallback and no notice has been posted for users on the fence about whether or not to purchase the L10 FFS depending on that information....
Well, I figured that I'd check in with Sales....
I was told that no information has been provided extending the Last Chance Sale - so unless something changes by the end of business tomorrow, users get no information to make an educated purchase for their needs.
I was told that the Sales Rep was told that only AI features would be excluded, when I mentioned that Mark has publicly stated on the forums AI and Cloud based, it was stated only AI....Who knows????
I was then told that the launch is likely November not October - so..... Who knows?
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Frank Sauer said:
I figured that I'd check in with Sales....
I have found general sales and customer service reps to be excellent when it comes to solving specific problems and providing workable solutions. I have found them to be much less reliable in providing accurate information pertaining to the future. I'm not complaining though. Friendly and helpful. That's all I need. I still fully expect the sale to be extended.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
I still fully expect the sale to be extended.
I think they're trying to beat the clock on 'Glowtime' ... major bucks decision time.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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1Cor10 31 said:
My question for Mark is: will they mark clearly each and every feature that is being introduced over the next 2 years as a cloud feature or not. They should know it right at the outset. The question is whether they want to make it clear to the customers upfront.
I think they should take all the cloud/online features and convert them to local. Subscription/cloud should only be for things which cannot be done on a local computer.
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
In non-IT circles, it's much more often used to mean "something from the past with long-lasting impact"
But I thought the "Legacy fallback license" was for previous owners of L10 FFS to obtain a permanent (vs unowned) license to the new features over the next 2 years? So is it not the customer that is being called "legacy"? Legacy customers are those who purchased everything BEFORE the transition to subscription only.
A question still in my mind, but I have not seen addressed yet is ... after the two year period ... will another 2 year period begin? And How will that work for new customers? Will they be able to ever own the new features from the previous 2 years?
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John said:Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
In non-IT circles, it's much more often used to mean "something from the past with long-lasting impact"
But I thought the "Legacy fallback license" was for previous owners of L10 FFS to obtain a permanent (vs unowned) license to the new features over the next 2 years? So is it not the customer that is being called "legacy"? Legacy customers are those who purchased everything BEFORE the transition to subscription only.
A question still in my mind, but I have not seen addressed yet is ... after the two year period ... will another 2 year period begin? And How will that work for new customers? Will they be able to ever own the new features from the previous 2 years?
This doesn't answer all the questions, but I copied this from another forum.
Mark Barnes (Logos):Correct. I likely won't be part of the legacy fallback license, but we won't remove it from the L10 licenses.
Thank you for the confirmation. Appreciate it very much.
I think that if you want to drive sales of L10 Full Feature Set (which I think you do because you are offering steep discounts right now), you should really highlight the no-AI/cloud features in the L10 Full Feature Set that will not be part of Legacy Fallback option in Oct 2026. When people see that features like Print Library and others will not be included, existing customers and new customers will rush to buy the L10 Full Feature set.
Somehow I missed this post or it didn't register in my mind. This is exactly what I was hoping to get clarification on.
The advantage of buying the Logos 10 FFS is that I get to keep ALL the features listed as part of Logos 10.
A new subscriber who currently does not own it and subscribes for two years will get the Fallback license but will be missing some things.
A permanent license, yes, but not quite as good as buying Logos 10 FFS now.
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Aaron Hamilton said:Frank Sauer said:
I figured that I'd check in with Sales....
I have found general sales and customer service reps to be excellent when it comes to solving specific problems and providing workable solutions. I have found them to be much less reliable in providing accurate information pertaining to the future. I'm not complaining though. Friendly and helpful. That's all I need. I still fully expect the sale to be extended.
I still hope you're right.... Even if they're still deciding on the new features created since L10 the minimum they should have had been prepared for is answering what features a user benefits from owning L10 FFS vs what they would lose with the Fallback License from the same FFS.... This failure just adds to the poor handling and preparation that has led to much confusion and frustration for users that are trying to make a decision with the countdown clock elapsing before their eyes....
There's part of me wondering if the slow response in general has to do with a potential that there is a lack of Fallback eligible features for those who own the FFS already - I hope this is not the case but if the only features eligible are instant dark mode and the new toolbar which seems less than favorable, that isn't very enticing for a sales pitch to long time and power users... Only Logos knows which Features qualify, but most of the new features do seem to be AI and or cloud reliant, which based on the bits of info likely disqualifies them from Fallback,,,,
Then we have the instance that we were told keeping the Traditional toolbar wouldn't be possible for subscribers, but Mark was able to show the option in the webinar and finally adding the Android Sermon functions that will only be subscription...(Could be wrong but I thought that we were told at a point that once it was capable those of us who owned the feature would have it added, though that could have been a phone call and not on the forums)
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Frank Sauer said:
There's part of me wondering if the slow response in general has to do with a potential that there is a lack of Fallback eligible features for those who own the FFS already - I hope this is not the case but if the only features eligible are instant dark mode and the new toolbar which seems less than favorable, that isn't very enticing for a sales pitch to long time and power users... Only Logos knows which Features qualify, but most of the new features do seem to be AI and or cloud reliant, which based on the bits of info likely disqualifies them from Fallback,,,,
Honestly, the slow response is simply because the transition to subscription is a whole-company effort, and therefore, some things are bogged down in bureaucracy in a way that's very unusual in Logos. We're generally able to make decisions pretty quickly, and I and others usually get lots of freedom in what we can do and say. But with such a major shift for us, there are more formal processes right now than there would normally be.
And, to be fair, it makes sense. You don't want to get a different answer to the question from different people in the company, and the "bureaucracy" is designed to ensure that something is communicated effectively internally before it's communicated externally. And, while getting an answer to this question is top of my priority list, I have dozens of colleagues with questions other customers are asking them, and I have to be patient and wait my turn because their questions are important, too.
(Which I know doesn't help at all with the "clock" ticking down – and I'm sorry about that. But that is the reality. I and others have pushed to get the "clock" extended to ensure we can answer that question before the end of the sale, and I'm hopeful that will happen.)
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Frank Sauer said:
There's part of me wondering if the slow response in general has to do with a potential that there is a lack of Fallback eligible features for those who own the FFS already - I hope this is not the case but if the only features eligible are instant dark mode and the new toolbar which seems less than favorable, that isn't very enticing for a sales pitch to long time and power users... Only Logos knows which Features qualify, but most of the new features do seem to be AI and or cloud reliant, which based on the bits of info likely disqualifies them from Fallback,,,,
Honestly, the slow response is simply because the transition to subscription is a whole-company effort, and therefore, some things are bogged down in bureaucracy in a way that's very unusual in Logos. We're generally able to make decisions pretty quickly, and I and others usually get lots of freedom in what we can do and say. But with such a major shift for us, there are more formal processes right now than there would normally be.
And, to be fair, it makes sense. You don't want to get a different answer to the question from different people in the company, and the "bureaucracy" is designed to ensure that something is communicated effectively internally before it's communicated externally. And, while getting an answer to this question is top of my priority list, I have dozens of colleagues with questions other customers are asking them, and I have to be patient and wait my turn because their questions are important, too.
(Which I know doesn't help at all with the "clock" ticking down – and I'm sorry about that. But that is the reality. I and others have pushed to get the "clock" extended to ensure we can answer that question before the end of the sale, and I'm hopeful that will happen.)
Thank you Mark for elaborating. I work for a large corporation and can sympathize :-)
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It's computer software. Those guys of all people should know how to use it to streamline transition processes and all their processes.
Steven MacDonald said:Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Frank Sauer said:There's part of me wondering if the slow response in general has to do with a potential that there is a lack of Fallback eligible features for those who own the FFS already - I hope this is not the case but if the only features eligible are instant dark mode and the new toolbar which seems less than favorable, that isn't very enticing for a sales pitch to long time and power users... Only Logos knows which Features qualify, but most of the new features do seem to be AI and or cloud reliant, which based on the bits of info likely disqualifies them from Fallback,,,,
Honestly, the slow response is simply because the transition to subscription is a whole-company effort, and therefore, some things are bogged down in bureaucracy in a way that's very unusual in Logos. We're generally able to make decisions pretty quickly, and I and others usually get lots of freedom in what we can do and say. But with such a major shift for us, there are more formal processes right now than there would normally be.
And, to be fair, it makes sense. You don't want to get a different answer to the question from different people in the company, and the "bureaucracy" is designed to ensure that something is communicated effectively internally before it's communicated externally. And, while getting an answer to this question is top of my priority list, I have dozens of colleagues with questions other customers are asking them, and I have to be patient and wait my turn because their questions are important, too.
(Which I know doesn't help at all with the "clock" ticking down – and I'm sorry about that. But that is the reality. I and others have pushed to get the "clock" extended to ensure we can answer that question before the end of the sale, and I'm hopeful that will happen.)
Thank you Mark for elaborating. I work for a large corporation and can sympathize :-)
It's computer software. The people running Logos, of all people, should know how to mobilize what's at their disposal to streamline their processes so that transitions and many of the other things they do are not a hassle. Mr. Sauer is not wrong to be concerned about the rawness of this deal which calls upon consumers to put an awful lot of faith in them for an awful long time without assurance of what it has to offer and its resultant value.
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At this point I'm just completely confused ... the entire conversation has become saturated in technical language ... "legacy fallback..." "Logos 10 FFS" ... No-one knows what features are included where ... or when anyone will know. Faithlife does, of course, "pinky promise" they will support your older versions of software, so long as you never upgrade the system that older software is running on.
Given my past experiences with these "pinky promises," my current take is this:
I am forced to purchase the subscription if I plan to actually use Logos, at least until Faithlife figures out what the folks they slot into "legacy" (which just means "stuff we are leaving in the past") are going to have access to.
Now, I keep hearing about a subscription sale, but I don't see a link to it. Where is this link?
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Brittany Correa said:
It's computer software. The people running Logos, of all people, should know how to mobilize what's at their disposal to streamline their processes so that transitions and many of the other things they do are not a hassle. Mr. Sauer is not wrong to be concerned about the rawness of this deal which calls upon consumers to put an awful lot of faith in them for an awful long time without assurance of what it has to offer and its resultant value.
And that is what this all comes down to ... most folks here are "fans" of Logos, and trust the company as a company to always do the right thing. Some of us have prior experiences that lead us to see Logos as a company like any other company, and we aren't inclined to "just trust Faithlife."
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Russ White said:
Now, I keep hearing about a subscription sale, but I don't see a link to it. Where is this link?
Let's get with the program. We're still in the Fairwell Tour for 16 hrs and 35 min. But! Mark says that might change. Which means it might not.
The subscription sale (I assume) is the Logos Something packages which non-subscribers are prohibited to buy. Their appearance is still 'in the fall' and will not include denominationals, which are 'in the spring'.
For me, I usually buget the big bucks for library expansions and maybe packages. I'm a non-subscriber, so that meant transferring my big bucks to a new Apple watch (that can't do Logos of course).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
Let's get with the program. We're still in the Fairwell Tour for 16 hrs and 35 min. But! Mark says that might change. Which means it might not.
For me, I usually budget the big bucks for library expansions and maybe packages. I'm a non-subscriber, so that meant transferring my big bucks to a new Apple watch (that can't do Logos of course).
"Farewell tour" ... "legacy fallback" ... and yet I keep hearing the older software will be supported forever ... One thing that bothers me about all of this is the language being used. It's obvious subscriptions are the future. I just wish Faithlife would come out and say this, rather than beating around the bush so much.
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DMB said:
Let's get with the program. We're still in the Fairwell Tour for 16 hrs and 35 min. But! Mark says that might change. Which means it might not.
The subscription sale (I assume) is the Logos Something packages which non-subscribers are prohibited to buy. Their appearance is still 'in the fall' and will not include denominationals, which are 'in the spring'.
lol, I can't quite tell whether this is humor or irritation. Perhaps that's the point? I hope you enjoy your new Apple watch. I'm more of an Android guy myself.
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Russ White said:
It's obvious subscriptions are the future. I just wish Faithlife would come out and say this, rather than beating around the bush so much.
They've done this. You're right. Subscriptions are the future, love it or hate it.
Russ White said:I keep hearing the older software will be supported forever
I think there's a foundational misunderstanding here. I've read up on it quite a bit, and, as far as I understand, there will be no "older software". All users who decide not to subscribe will receive updates about every 6 weeks, whether it's the free version or any of the endless feature packages (please correct me if I'm wrong, Mark). The difference, of course, is that non-subscribers will not receive any updates that pertain to features that they do not own. But they will receive every update relating to basic OS compatibility and bug fixes for features they own.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
I think there's a foundational misunderstanding here. I've read up on it quite a bit, and, as far as I understand, there will be no "older software". All users who decide not to subscribe will receive updates about every 6 weeks, whether it's the free version or any of the endless feature packages (please correct me if I'm wrong, Mark). The difference, of course, is that non-subscribers will not receive any updates that pertain to features that they do not own. But they will receive every update relating to basic OS compatibility and bug fixes for features they own.
Then call it "foundation" or "resource-centric" rather than legacy fallback, and don't call it the farewell tour. I know it's not a popular opinion to say language has meaning in the modern world (or modern church), but language conveys intent.
Faithlife is saying: "To use our software in the future, and therefore to use resources accessed via our software, you will need to purchase a subscription ... but ... we're going to pinky promise that you won't need the subscription that we just said you're going to need to access resources in the future ..."
Don't be double minded.
If you're going to make the jump to subscriptions, make it and deal with the blowback. This is typical modern Humpty-Dumptyism ... "words have the meaning I assign them, no more and no less." It's just this kind of thing that makes me distrust Faithlife as a company.
Say what you are doing clearly, and use words that hold those meanings.
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So the rest of us are going to get updates, too? After all that? Do you mean just interface updates and bug fixes and stuff? We're not going to have to deal with that AI too, are we?
My thing is that the move to the subscription model follows on from language and planning and all of that, and that conveys intention, too, including intention for the rest of us. This is different from a subscription to a media streaming service, and so the installation of this model calls for serious consideration. It speaks to and facilitates generalization about who is and will be and is desired to be using this, and I don't appreciate the institution of, say, a pastor being installed to serve on a week-by-week basis, and then when it comes to the lay people, it's like "either only get someone involved or become clergy". It's the wrong attitude for a community of biblical scholarship, which is why I decided it makes more sense to invest in owning the software to facilitate what I want for my journey, rather than subscribing to get access to a fraction of what I wanted, whether perpetually or conditionally.
Even the implications for religious streaming services aren't as weighty; at least it's possible to hook up with a church and bear the cost of taking them on together.
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So the rest of us are going to get updates, too? After all that? Do you mean just interface updates and bug fixes and stuff? We're not going to have to deal with that AI too, are we?
My thing is that the move to the subscription model follows on from language and planning and all of that, and that conveys intention, too, including intention for the rest of us. This is different from a subscription to a media streaming service, and so the installation of this model calls for serious consideration. It speaks to and facilitates generalization about who is and will be and is desired to be using this, and I don't appreciate the institution of, say, a pastor being installed to serve on a week-by-week basis, and then when it comes to the lay people, it's like "either only get someone involved or become clergy". It's the wrong attitude for a community of biblical scholarship, which is why I decided it makes more sense to invest in owning the software to facilitate what I want for my journey, rather than subscribing to get access to a fraction of what I wanted, whether perpetually or conditionally.
Even the implications for religious streaming services aren't as weighty; at least it's possible to hook up with a church and bear the cost of taking them on together.
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Ok, too much to read to know if this has been answered. I am a vested owner with logos 10 full features platinum or higher.
1-If I go to early trial of subscription max, will it have all features available to try out?
2-for someone like me, is the new subscription model simply giving me access to the upgraded features and really no books? If so, I assume that I’m just paying 129 a year for the upgraded features. Is this the upgrade and subscription in a nutshell for guys like me that already own so many books have full features
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Russ White said:
call it "foundation" or "resource-centric" rather than legacy fallback
Instead of falling back to whatever features you owned before starting the subscription, you fall back to the features included in the most recent legacy fallback license you acquired. I'm not sure how "foundation" or "resource-centric" would convey this more accurately.
Russ White said:don't call it the farewell tour
The farewell tour is so named because Logos 10 is being replaced by the subscription model. We are saying "farewell" to Logos 10. I fail to see why this is a poor choice of words.
Russ White said:Don't be double minded.
What you call "double minded" I call compromise. And I am grateful for it.
Russ White said:Say what you are doing clearly, and use words that hold those meanings.
Perhaps part of the problem might relate to you not fully understanding the meanings of the words they have chosen to use? I wouldn't fault you for this. The process has been confusing to put it lightly.
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Pastor T.C. Hadden said:
Ok, too much to read to know if this has been answered. I am a vested owner with logos 10 full features platinum or higher.
1-If I go to early trial of subscription max, will it have all features available to try out?
2-for someone like me, is the new subscription model simply giving me access to the upgraded features and really no books? If so, I assume that I’m just paying 129 a year for the upgraded features. Is this the upgrade and subscription in a nutshell for guys like me that already own so many books have full features
1 - Yes
2 - The new subscription model will give you all of the latest features (those released after L10) as well as the right to purchase the latest base package libraries (~L11 or whatever they will be called). The books included with the subscription are a bonus, but may not be that helpful if you already have a huge library.
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Brittany Correa said:
So the rest of us are going to get updates, too? After all that? Do you mean just interface updates and bug fixes and stuff? We're not going to have to deal with that AI too, are we?
Judging from Mark's comments, we're in competition with the new FL layers of approvers. But yes, us non-subscribers do as we did before ... get the updates, but not neato features (which I don't want kludging up the app).
No offence (and I'm confused) ... you've hit on their religious layering (I think anyway). Personally, I think it's silly marketing. All the preachers I ever met, know exactly what they want ... or don't. Just like eveyone. The max is silly-est. Pay extra to get those original inspired words! I guess. Sorting out Logos app theology is not easy.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Aaron Hamilton said:Russ White said:
call it "foundation" or "resource-centric" rather than legacy fallback
Instead of falling back to whatever features you owned before starting the subscription, you fall back to the features included in the most recentlegacy fallback license you acquired. I'm not sure how "foundation" or "resource-centric" would convey this more accurately.
...
Perhaps part of the problem might relate to you not fully understood the meanings of the words they have chosen to use? I wouldn't fault you for this. The process has been confusing to put it lightly.
Legacy in IT means: "This is something we no longer want to support, but we must. We will find a way to stop supporting it when we can." Legacy can have a positive meaning in some contexts, but there is no positive meaning for the term in IT.
Fallback in IT means: "This is less than ideal. It needs to be corrected to reach/restore proper system functioning."
There seems to be some sort of impression here that software doesn't "age," or that you can carve out a piece of software in granite and install it on a pedestal for generations to come. Software doesn't work that way. As little as this might make sense to someone not in IT, software ages.
If Faithlife said: "We are coming out with new features, but those specific features will be supported through a subscription service," that would mean one thing.
Instead, what Faithlife is saying is: "There are no new versions of this software; it is being replaced by a subscription service. We pinky promise to keep the old legacy software around as a fallback in case you don't want the subscription, but we're not going to put a service life in writing, etc."
I've seen this specific promise made many times, by many companies. I've even worked for companies where I mouthed these same kinds of words to customers. After some time, someone comes in and says: "we make money off these subscriptions over here, but these legacy fallback customers are just a drain on our resources ... lets stop updating that software ... sure there will be blowback, but there's only x users on the legacy plan ... we can give them a special discount and manage that situation through marketing. After all, you cannot make everyone happy, but you can create new revenue growth to keep the company healthy. We called it legacy, after all, so everyone should have known we wouldn't support that forever."
I'm realistic enough about how companies operate to say: "it's a matter of when this happens, rather than if." It's easy to make promises when you're financially in a good place, and it's easy to break promises when the economy sours and the spreadsheet turns red.
The bottom line, for me, is this: the entire legacy fallback charade is a transition plan to the bright new future of subscription-only access to the books I've already purchased. At some point I'm going to be forced to either stop accessing that material or purchase a subscription to continue accessing it, pinky promises or not.
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Chad Katter said:
2 - The new subscription model will give you all of the latest features (those released after L10) as well as the right to purchase the latest base package libraries (~L11 or whatever they will be called). The books included with the subscription are a bonus, but may not be that helpful if you already have a huge library.
Which also implies that at some point in the future folks on the legacy fallback plan will not be able to "purchase" new resources. Not that I understand what it means to "purchase" resources in a world where you can only access them via subscription.
This is exactly how abandoning the non-subscription users starts.
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I don’t know if somebody could legally do this on past purchases. I foresee FL working to expand features and updates in such a way that they entice enough to purchase subscriptions. They really seem to simply be going the way of Adobe, Microsoft, etc. except FL is different in that most will have prior investments and will not see value in this initial expansion of features that demand subscriptions. Not having much video evidence of new features, the trail seems sketchy lol.
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Russ White said:
Which also implies that at some point in the future folks on the legacy fallback plan will not be able to "purchase" new resources.
You might want to double-check this. IIRC Mark indicated even the free version was a sufficient base to purchase books. It is the biannual libraries that have restrictions but the restrictions are a continuation of the current restrictions.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Russ,
I can see how you might interpret "Legacy" and "Fallback" in that way. These words, however, are being directed at a general audience, not only to those in IT. Legacy does communicate that the feature set is outdated, and that is what will happen to those with a Legacy Fallback License. The feature set that they own will over time become more and more outdated, in the sense of never having access to the new features. Fallback in this case simply means that if plans change and you cancel the subscription, you will fall back to the features present in that license. This is a perfectly appropriate use of the word in common language.
Russ White said:If Faithlife said: "We are coming out with new features, but those specific features will be supported through a subscription service," that would mean one thing.
Instead, what Faithlife is saying is: "There are no new versions of this software; it is being replaced by a subscription service. We pinky promise to keep the old legacy software around as a fallback in case you don't want the subscription, but we're not going to put a service life in writing, etc."
The Bible software is certainly not being replaced. Subscribers will be using the same software as non-subscribers. The only difference will be the access to features that those users have. You appear to have misunderstood what Faithlife is saying. The subscription is indeed about access to features.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
. The subscription is indeed about access to features.
Although ... the (apparently) new subscrition feature will allow turning off subscription features! How's that for subscription sophistication!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Russ White said:
Which also implies that at some point in the future folks on the legacy fallback plan will not be able to "purchase" new resources.
They are never going to stop selling licenses to resources. That would not make any sense whatsoever. What concerns me though is that they may start Leasing those same resources as a subscription, which would give new users, a much better deal than the longtime loyal customers got by paying for it outright.
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John said:
That would not make any sense whatsoever. What concerns me though is that they may start Leasing those same resources as a subscription, which would give new users, a much better deal than the longtime loyal customers got by paying for it outright.
Hi John, your comment reminds me of the passage in Matthew 20:1-16, where the day laborer who worked for 1 hour is paid the same as the one who worked all day.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
I can see how you might interpret "Legacy" and "Fallback" in that way. These words, however, are being directed at a general audience, not only to those in IT. Legacy does communicate that the feature set is outdated, and that is what will happen to those with a Legacy Fallback License. The feature set that they own will over time become more and more outdated, in the sense of never having access to the new features. Fallback in this case simply means that if plans change and you cancel the subscription, you will fall back to the features present in that license. This is a perfectly appropriate use of the word in common language.
I disagree.
If FL said:
"The current version of Logos is going to be the long-term stable version of this software. This software will be maintained into the future. Existing and future resources will be accessible using this software. We are, however, going to stop numbering versions. Instead of having numbered versions you can purchase, all new features will only be accessible as subscriptions."
I would say, "let's see what these new features might be and I'll think about it."
What FL is saying, instead, is:
"We are in the last few hours of your ability to purchase Logos 10, which will then be discontinued. In its place there will be new software which can only be purchased on a subscription basis. As a service to our legacy users, this subscription only software will support a fallback mode which will be able to access all the resources legacy users might happen to have purchased in the past. We pinky promise this legacy fallback mode is a permanent feature of the software replacing Logos 10. We do not know what features will be available in this legacy fallback mode."
These are completely different ways of phrasing what might, right now, be the same thing. The terms legacy and fallback, however, clearly contradict the pinky promise of those modes being permanent. Experience, likewise, tells me the legacy fallback will sunset at some point in the future. There might not be a sunset plan right now, hence the pinky promises--but, given the way businesses run, there will be a sunset at some point in the future.
I don't think using "outdated" helps your case here. "Outdated" means "all new plumbing is PEX, so you cannot be a plumber if all you own is the tools to do sweat soldering."
I once worked with a man who was wise in the ways of advertising and corporate language use. At the time, I drank a lot of a particular brand of soda (I no longer drink soda). The soda's label included the words: "Flavor aged in oak barrels." He saw those words and said, "in other words, the flavorings used to create this drink pass through an oak barrel for at least a few moments somewhere in the factory where they create this drink." Being naive, I thought he was being cynical.
Later, I discovered he was correct. This soda company took the language of alcoholic beverages and used it to imply one thing, but there was wiggle room for it to mean something else. I have, over my years in IT, including a stint in marketing, observed his cynicism is and was fully justified. This language is not accidental. There was a meeting someplace when different wordings and different ways of describing what is happening here, were considered. There was a white board involved. There were probably sticky notes on the white board. There was brainstorming, etc. There were probably arguments over the different meanings of the words.
There were probably long emails, and people who were frustrated because they saw that at least some users would react the way I am. Those people were overruled.
Legacy fallback was the preferred way of describing this for a reason. If you want to believe legacy was chosen to describe something solid, rather than something old (and to be replaced), feel free. I consider this a rather pollyanish view, but my dealing with FL have not caused me to be a fanboy, and hence not to argue to put the most wonderful, positive, glowing meaning on the words they use.
FL is a company. Companies exist to maximize profit. There's nothing unethical in this, but it means you need to treat the words and processes within the company as working towards maximizing profits. That's not cynical, that's just real life.
[quote]
The Bible software is certainly not being replaced.
The Bible software is being replaced. This is an explicit statement made by FL in multiple ways and multiple places.
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Nah, they're not going to provide everything upfront; they're going to want room to go up.
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John said:
They are never going to stop selling licenses to resources. That would not make any sense whatsoever. What concerns me though is that they may start leasing those same resources as a subscription, which would give new users, a much better deal than the longtime loyal customers got by paying for it outright.
When the resource file format is changed to support some new feature only available in the subscription version of the software, I expect resources in that new format will not be available to legacy fallback users. At some point, I expect we can buy all the new resources we want to, but they will only be accessible through the subscription version of the software.
I don't see how or why anyone would expect anything different.
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