Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos
Comments
-
My question for Mark is: will they mark clearly each and every feature that is being introduced over the next 2 years as a cloud feature or not. They should know it right at the outset. The question is whether they want to make it clear to the customers upfront.
I hope to have a list of probable exclusions relatively shortly, and I'll do my best to keep that up to date as new features are developed.
0 -
1Cor10 31">My question for Mark is: will they mark clearly each and every feature that is being introduced over the next 2 years as a cloud feature or not. They should know it right at the outset. The question is whether they want to make it clear to the customers upfront.
I hope to have a list of probable exclusions relatively shortly, and I'll do my best to keep that up to date as new features are developed.
Thank you for this. I see this as critical to keep trust with the community. I currently have faith in FL that they are doing things in a way that both is profitable and for the Glory of God.
0 -
1Cor10 31">My question for Mark is: will they mark clearly each and every feature that is being introduced over the next 2 years as a cloud feature or not. They should know it right at the outset. The question is whether they want to make it clear to the customers upfront.
I hope to have a list of probable exclusions relatively shortly, and I'll do my best to keep that up to date as new features are developed.
Thank you so very much, Mark.
Removing uncertainty should help bring more customers to the firm.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God
0 -
1Cor10 31">My question for Mark is: will they mark clearly each and every feature that is being introduced over the next 2 years as a cloud feature or not. They should know it right at the outset. The question is whether they want to make it clear to the customers upfront.
I hope to have a list of probable exclusions relatively shortly, and I'll do my best to keep that up to date as new features are developed.
Considering the fact that this list has still not been provided - will the Last Chance Sale be extended? From the bits of released information, there is still some question on whether a user would be better off purchasing the Full Feature Set now or just subscribing for the Fallback License.
Allowing your users some time to make that decision with the knowledge of what is to gain and what could be lost pertaining to purchasing or not purchasing the FFS would show that Logos cares about the customer. Expecting customers to make such a decision while not providing key information to do so - not so much.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
0 -
1Cor10 31">Mark! I have a related question. Going forward, you've said that the Legacy License associated with the subscription would only include non-cloud (and non-AI) features. Is a feature that requires internet - from the list above - considered a "cloud" feature?
Yes. NET = 'cloud'. But if you own the (L10) feature you will not lose its cloud access e.g. Morph Query.
Perhaps the biggest unknown going forward from L10 is how many features will be independent of the cloud and AI. Within the next two years I would like to see see a realistic "Fallback" license with a small ongoing charge for cloud and AI.
If you're pointing to an offering of Fallback eligible features only - I suggested it multiple times and thus far the only response I've seen is that a customer would miss out on the books and AI features.... When in response I asked what about the customer that wouldn't be interested in the borrowed books and AI features - no response....
Offering either the traditional purchase option or a variation of Fallback that doesn't include the "extras" would be a smart move IMHO - more customers staying engaged and continuing should not be a problem for the company...
A simple cloud/AI subscription addon would be a good option, considering Mark already mentioned another addon subscription available for journals - you would think the system would limit that as an option.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
0 -
1Cor10 31">My question for Mark is: will they mark clearly each and every feature that is being introduced over the next 2 years as a cloud feature or not. They should know it right at the outset. The question is whether they want to make it clear to the customers upfront.
I hope to have a list of probable exclusions relatively shortly, and I'll do my best to keep that up to date as new features are developed.
Considering the fact that this list has still not been provided - will the Last Chance Sale be extended? From the bits of released information, there is still some question on whether a user would be better off purchasing the Full Feature Set now or just subscribing for the Fallback License.
Allowing your users some time to make that decision with the knowledge of what is to gain and what could be lost pertaining to purchasing or not purchasing the FFS would show that Logos cares about the customer. Expecting customers to make such a decision while not providing key information to do so - not so much.
Since there has been silence on the multiple requests by multiple forum users in relation to providing information about what features are and are not going to be eligible for the Fallback and no notice has been posted for users on the fence about whether or not to purchase the L10 FFS depending on that information....
Well, I figured that I'd check in with Sales....
I was told that no information has been provided extending the Last Chance Sale - so unless something changes by the end of business tomorrow, users get no information to make an educated purchase for their needs.
I was told that the Sales Rep was told that only AI features would be excluded, when I mentioned that Mark has publicly stated on the forums AI and Cloud based, it was stated only AI....Who knows????
I was then told that the launch is likely November not October - so..... Who knows?
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
0 -
I figured that I'd check in with Sales....
I have found general sales and customer service reps to be excellent when it comes to solving specific problems and providing workable solutions. I have found them to be much less reliable in providing accurate information pertaining to the future. I'm not complaining though. Friendly and helpful. That's all I need. I still fully expect the sale to be extended.
0 -
I still fully expect the sale to be extended.
I think they're trying to beat the clock on 'Glowtime' ... major bucks decision time.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
0 -
My question for Mark is: will they mark clearly each and every feature that is being introduced over the next 2 years as a cloud feature or not. They should know it right at the outset. The question is whether they want to make it clear to the customers upfront.
I think they should take all the cloud/online features and convert them to local. Subscription/cloud should only be for things which cannot be done on a local computer.
0 -
In non-IT circles, it's much more often used to mean "something from the past with long-lasting impact"
But I thought the "Legacy fallback license" was for previous owners of L10 FFS to obtain a permanent (vs unowned) license to the new features over the next 2 years? So is it not the customer that is being called "legacy"? Legacy customers are those who purchased everything BEFORE the transition to subscription only.
A question still in my mind, but I have not seen addressed yet is ... after the two year period ... will another 2 year period begin? And How will that work for new customers? Will they be able to ever own the new features from the previous 2 years?
0 -
In non-IT circles, it's much more often used to mean "something from the past with long-lasting impact"
But I thought the "Legacy fallback license" was for previous owners of L10 FFS to obtain a permanent (vs unowned) license to the new features over the next 2 years? So is it not the customer that is being called "legacy"? Legacy customers are those who purchased everything BEFORE the transition to subscription only.
A question still in my mind, but I have not seen addressed yet is ... after the two year period ... will another 2 year period begin? And How will that work for new customers? Will they be able to ever own the new features from the previous 2 years?
This doesn't answer all the questions, but I copied this from another forum.
Mark Barnes (Logos):But people who have bought the L10 Full Features will still have access to Print Library even if we don't subscribe, am I right?Correct. I likely won't be part of the legacy fallback license, but we won't remove it from the L10 licenses.
Thank you for the confirmation. Appreciate it very much.
I think that if you want to drive sales of L10 Full Feature Set (which I think you do because you are offering steep discounts right now), you should really highlight the no-AI/cloud features in the L10 Full Feature Set that will not be part of Legacy Fallback option in Oct 2026. When people see that features like Print Library and others will not be included, existing customers and new customers will rush to buy the L10 Full Feature set.
Somehow I missed this post or it didn't register in my mind. This is exactly what I was hoping to get clarification on.
The advantage of buying the Logos 10 FFS is that I get to keep ALL the features listed as part of Logos 10.
A new subscriber who currently does not own it and subscribes for two years will get the Fallback license but will be missing some things.
A permanent license, yes, but not quite as good as buying Logos 10 FFS now.
0 -
I figured that I'd check in with Sales....
I have found general sales and customer service reps to be excellent when it comes to solving specific problems and providing workable solutions. I have found them to be much less reliable in providing accurate information pertaining to the future. I'm not complaining though. Friendly and helpful. That's all I need. I still fully expect the sale to be extended.
I still hope you're right.... Even if they're still deciding on the new features created since L10 the minimum they should have had been prepared for is answering what features a user benefits from owning L10 FFS vs what they would lose with the Fallback License from the same FFS.... This failure just adds to the poor handling and preparation that has led to much confusion and frustration for users that are trying to make a decision with the countdown clock elapsing before their eyes....
There's part of me wondering if the slow response in general has to do with a potential that there is a lack of Fallback eligible features for those who own the FFS already - I hope this is not the case but if the only features eligible are instant dark mode and the new toolbar which seems less than favorable, that isn't very enticing for a sales pitch to long time and power users... Only Logos knows which Features qualify, but most of the new features do seem to be AI and or cloud reliant, which based on the bits of info likely disqualifies them from Fallback,,,,
Then we have the instance that we were told keeping the Traditional toolbar wouldn't be possible for subscribers, but Mark was able to show the option in the webinar and finally adding the Android Sermon functions that will only be subscription...(Could be wrong but I thought that we were told at a point that once it was capable those of us who owned the feature would have it added, though that could have been a phone call and not on the forums)
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
0 -
There's part of me wondering if the slow response in general has to do with a potential that there is a lack of Fallback eligible features for those who own the FFS already - I hope this is not the case but if the only features eligible are instant dark mode and the new toolbar which seems less than favorable, that isn't very enticing for a sales pitch to long time and power users... Only Logos knows which Features qualify, but most of the new features do seem to be AI and or cloud reliant, which based on the bits of info likely disqualifies them from Fallback,,,,
Honestly, the slow response is simply because the transition to subscription is a whole-company effort, and therefore, some things are bogged down in bureaucracy in a way that's very unusual in Logos. We're generally able to make decisions pretty quickly, and I and others usually get lots of freedom in what we can do and say. But with such a major shift for us, there are more formal processes right now than there would normally be.
And, to be fair, it makes sense. You don't want to get a different answer to the question from different people in the company, and the "bureaucracy" is designed to ensure that something is communicated effectively internally before it's communicated externally. And, while getting an answer to this question is top of my priority list, I have dozens of colleagues with questions other customers are asking them, and I have to be patient and wait my turn because their questions are important, too.
(Which I know doesn't help at all with the "clock" ticking down – and I'm sorry about that. But that is the reality. I and others have pushed to get the "clock" extended to ensure we can answer that question before the end of the sale, and I'm hopeful that will happen.)
0 -
There's part of me wondering if the slow response in general has to do with a potential that there is a lack of Fallback eligible features for those who own the FFS already - I hope this is not the case but if the only features eligible are instant dark mode and the new toolbar which seems less than favorable, that isn't very enticing for a sales pitch to long time and power users... Only Logos knows which Features qualify, but most of the new features do seem to be AI and or cloud reliant, which based on the bits of info likely disqualifies them from Fallback,,,,
Honestly, the slow response is simply because the transition to subscription is a whole-company effort, and therefore, some things are bogged down in bureaucracy in a way that's very unusual in Logos. We're generally able to make decisions pretty quickly, and I and others usually get lots of freedom in what we can do and say. But with such a major shift for us, there are more formal processes right now than there would normally be.
And, to be fair, it makes sense. You don't want to get a different answer to the question from different people in the company, and the "bureaucracy" is designed to ensure that something is communicated effectively internally before it's communicated externally. And, while getting an answer to this question is top of my priority list, I have dozens of colleagues with questions other customers are asking them, and I have to be patient and wait my turn because their questions are important, too.
(Which I know doesn't help at all with the "clock" ticking down – and I'm sorry about that. But that is the reality. I and others have pushed to get the "clock" extended to ensure we can answer that question before the end of the sale, and I'm hopeful that will happen.)
Thank you Mark for elaborating. I work for a large corporation and can sympathize :-)
0 -
It's computer software. Those guys of all people should know how to use it to streamline transition processes and all their processes.
There's part of me wondering if the slow response in general has to do with a potential that there is a lack of Fallback eligible features for those who own the FFS already - I hope this is not the case but if the only features eligible are instant dark mode and the new toolbar which seems less than favorable, that isn't very enticing for a sales pitch to long time and power users... Only Logos knows which Features qualify, but most of the new features do seem to be AI and or cloud reliant, which based on the bits of info likely disqualifies them from Fallback,,,,
Honestly, the slow response is simply because the transition to subscription is a whole-company effort, and therefore, some things are bogged down in bureaucracy in a way that's very unusual in Logos. We're generally able to make decisions pretty quickly, and I and others usually get lots of freedom in what we can do and say. But with such a major shift for us, there are more formal processes right now than there would normally be.
And, to be fair, it makes sense. You don't want to get a different answer to the question from different people in the company, and the "bureaucracy" is designed to ensure that something is communicated effectively internally before it's communicated externally. And, while getting an answer to this question is top of my priority list, I have dozens of colleagues with questions other customers are asking them, and I have to be patient and wait my turn because their questions are important, too.
(Which I know doesn't help at all with the "clock" ticking down – and I'm sorry about that. But that is the reality. I and others have pushed to get the "clock" extended to ensure we can answer that question before the end of the sale, and I'm hopeful that will happen.)
Thank you Mark for elaborating. I work for a large corporation and can sympathize :-)
It's computer software. The people running Logos, of all people, should know how to mobilize what's at their disposal to streamline their processes so that transitions and many of the other things they do are not a hassle. Mr. Sauer is not wrong to be concerned about the rawness of this deal which calls upon consumers to put an awful lot of faith in them for an awful long time without assurance of what it has to offer and its resultant value.
0 -
At this point I'm just completely confused ... the entire conversation has become saturated in technical language ... "legacy fallback..." "Logos 10 FFS" ... No-one knows what features are included where ... or when anyone will know. Faithlife does, of course, "pinky promise" they will support your older versions of software, so long as you never upgrade the system that older software is running on.
Given my past experiences with these "pinky promises," my current take is this:
I am forced to purchase the subscription if I plan to actually use Logos, at least until Faithlife figures out what the folks they slot into "legacy" (which just means "stuff we are leaving in the past") are going to have access to.
Now, I keep hearing about a subscription sale, but I don't see a link to it. Where is this link?
0 -
It's computer software. The people running Logos, of all people, should know how to mobilize what's at their disposal to streamline their processes so that transitions and many of the other things they do are not a hassle. Mr. Sauer is not wrong to be concerned about the rawness of this deal which calls upon consumers to put an awful lot of faith in them for an awful long time without assurance of what it has to offer and its resultant value.
And that is what this all comes down to ... most folks here are "fans" of Logos, and trust the company as a company to always do the right thing. Some of us have prior experiences that lead us to see Logos as a company like any other company, and we aren't inclined to "just trust Faithlife."
0 -
Now, I keep hearing about a subscription sale, but I don't see a link to it. Where is this link?
Let's get with the program. We're still in the Fairwell Tour for 16 hrs and 35 min. But! Mark says that might change. Which means it might not.
The subscription sale (I assume) is the Logos Something packages which non-subscribers are prohibited to buy. Their appearance is still 'in the fall' and will not include denominationals, which are 'in the spring'.
For me, I usually buget the big bucks for library expansions and maybe packages. I'm a non-subscriber, so that meant transferring my big bucks to a new Apple watch (that can't do Logos of course).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
0 -
Let's get with the program. We're still in the Fairwell Tour for 16 hrs and 35 min. But! Mark says that might change. Which means it might not.
For me, I usually budget the big bucks for library expansions and maybe packages. I'm a non-subscriber, so that meant transferring my big bucks to a new Apple watch (that can't do Logos of course).
"Farewell tour" ... "legacy fallback" ... and yet I keep hearing the older software will be supported forever ... One thing that bothers me about all of this is the language being used. It's obvious subscriptions are the future. I just wish Faithlife would come out and say this, rather than beating around the bush so much.
0 -
Let's get with the program. We're still in the Fairwell Tour for 16 hrs and 35 min. But! Mark says that might change. Which means it might not.
The subscription sale (I assume) is the Logos Something packages which non-subscribers are prohibited to buy. Their appearance is still 'in the fall' and will not include denominationals, which are 'in the spring'.
lol, I can't quite tell whether this is humor or irritation. Perhaps that's the point? I hope you enjoy your new Apple watch. I'm more of an Android guy myself.
0 -
It's obvious subscriptions are the future. I just wish Faithlife would come out and say this, rather than beating around the bush so much.
They've done this. You're right. Subscriptions are the future, love it or hate it.
I keep hearing the older software will be supported forever
I think there's a foundational misunderstanding here. I've read up on it quite a bit, and, as far as I understand, there will be no "older software". All users who decide not to subscribe will receive updates about every 6 weeks, whether it's the free version or any of the endless feature packages (please correct me if I'm wrong, Mark). The difference, of course, is that non-subscribers will not receive any updates that pertain to features that they do not own. But they will receive every update relating to basic OS compatibility and bug fixes for features they own.
0 -
I think there's a foundational misunderstanding here. I've read up on it quite a bit, and, as far as I understand, there will be no "older software". All users who decide not to subscribe will receive updates about every 6 weeks, whether it's the free version or any of the endless feature packages (please correct me if I'm wrong, Mark). The difference, of course, is that non-subscribers will not receive any updates that pertain to features that they do not own. But they will receive every update relating to basic OS compatibility and bug fixes for features they own.
Then call it "foundation" or "resource-centric" rather than legacy fallback, and don't call it the farewell tour. I know it's not a popular opinion to say language has meaning in the modern world (or modern church), but language conveys intent.
Faithlife is saying: "To use our software in the future, and therefore to use resources accessed via our software, you will need to purchase a subscription ... but ... we're going to pinky promise that you won't need the subscription that we just said you're going to need to access resources in the future ..."
Don't be double minded.
If you're going to make the jump to subscriptions, make it and deal with the blowback. This is typical modern Humpty-Dumptyism ... "words have the meaning I assign them, no more and no less." It's just this kind of thing that makes me distrust Faithlife as a company.
Say what you are doing clearly, and use words that hold those meanings.
0 -
So the rest of us are going to get updates, too? After all that? Do you mean just interface updates and bug fixes and stuff? We're not going to have to deal with that AI too, are we?
My thing is that the move to the subscription model follows on from language and planning and all of that, and that conveys intention, too, including intention for the rest of us. This is different from a subscription to a media streaming service, and so the installation of this model calls for serious consideration. It speaks to and facilitates generalization about who is and will be and is desired to be using this, and I don't appreciate the institution of, say, a pastor being installed to serve on a week-by-week basis, and then when it comes to the lay people, it's like "either only get someone involved or become clergy". It's the wrong attitude for a community of biblical scholarship, which is why I decided it makes more sense to invest in owning the software to facilitate what I want for my journey, rather than subscribing to get access to a fraction of what I wanted, whether perpetually or conditionally.
Even the implications for religious streaming services aren't as weighty; at least it's possible to hook up with a church and bear the cost of taking them on together.
0 -
So the rest of us are going to get updates, too? After all that? Do you mean just interface updates and bug fixes and stuff? We're not going to have to deal with that AI too, are we?
My thing is that the move to the subscription model follows on from language and planning and all of that, and that conveys intention, too, including intention for the rest of us. This is different from a subscription to a media streaming service, and so the installation of this model calls for serious consideration. It speaks to and facilitates generalization about who is and will be and is desired to be using this, and I don't appreciate the institution of, say, a pastor being installed to serve on a week-by-week basis, and then when it comes to the lay people, it's like "either only get someone involved or become clergy". It's the wrong attitude for a community of biblical scholarship, which is why I decided it makes more sense to invest in owning the software to facilitate what I want for my journey, rather than subscribing to get access to a fraction of what I wanted, whether perpetually or conditionally.
Even the implications for religious streaming services aren't as weighty; at least it's possible to hook up with a church and bear the cost of taking them on together.
0 -
Ok, too much to read to know if this has been answered. I am a vested owner with logos 10 full features platinum or higher.
1-If I go to early trial of subscription max, will it have all features available to try out?
2-for someone like me, is the new subscription model simply giving me access to the upgraded features and really no books? If so, I assume that I’m just paying 129 a year for the upgraded features. Is this the upgrade and subscription in a nutshell for guys like me that already own so many books have full features
0 -
call it "foundation" or "resource-centric" rather than legacy fallback
Instead of falling back to whatever features you owned before starting the subscription, you fall back to the features included in the most recent legacy fallback license you acquired. I'm not sure how "foundation" or "resource-centric" would convey this more accurately.
don't call it the farewell tour
The farewell tour is so named because Logos 10 is being replaced by the subscription model. We are saying "farewell" to Logos 10. I fail to see why this is a poor choice of words.
Don't be double minded.
What you call "double minded" I call compromise. And I am grateful for it.
Say what you are doing clearly, and use words that hold those meanings.
Perhaps part of the problem might relate to you not fully understanding the meanings of the words they have chosen to use? I wouldn't fault you for this. The process has been confusing to put it lightly.
0 -
Ok, too much to read to know if this has been answered. I am a vested owner with logos 10 full features platinum or higher.
1-If I go to early trial of subscription max, will it have all features available to try out?
2-for someone like me, is the new subscription model simply giving me access to the upgraded features and really no books? If so, I assume that I’m just paying 129 a year for the upgraded features. Is this the upgrade and subscription in a nutshell for guys like me that already own so many books have full features
1 - Yes
2 - The new subscription model will give you all of the latest features (those released after L10) as well as the right to purchase the latest base package libraries (~L11 or whatever they will be called). The books included with the subscription are a bonus, but may not be that helpful if you already have a huge library.
0 -
So the rest of us are going to get updates, too? After all that? Do you mean just interface updates and bug fixes and stuff? We're not going to have to deal with that AI too, are we?
Judging from Mark's comments, we're in competition with the new FL layers of approvers. But yes, us non-subscribers do as we did before ... get the updates, but not neato features (which I don't want kludging up the app).
No offence (and I'm confused) ... you've hit on their religious layering (I think anyway). Personally, I think it's silly marketing. All the preachers I ever met, know exactly what they want ... or don't. Just like eveyone. The max is silly-est. Pay extra to get those original inspired words! I guess. Sorting out Logos app theology is not easy.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
0 -
call it "foundation" or "resource-centric" rather than legacy fallback
Instead of falling back to whatever features you owned before starting the subscription, you fall back to the features included in the most recentlegacy fallback license you acquired. I'm not sure how "foundation" or "resource-centric" would convey this more accurately.
...
Perhaps part of the problem might relate to you not fully understood the meanings of the words they have chosen to use? I wouldn't fault you for this. The process has been confusing to put it lightly.
Legacy in IT means: "This is something we no longer want to support, but we must. We will find a way to stop supporting it when we can." Legacy can have a positive meaning in some contexts, but there is no positive meaning for the term in IT.
Fallback in IT means: "This is less than ideal. It needs to be corrected to reach/restore proper system functioning."
There seems to be some sort of impression here that software doesn't "age," or that you can carve out a piece of software in granite and install it on a pedestal for generations to come. Software doesn't work that way. As little as this might make sense to someone not in IT, software ages.
If Faithlife said: "We are coming out with new features, but those specific features will be supported through a subscription service," that would mean one thing.
Instead, what Faithlife is saying is: "There are no new versions of this software; it is being replaced by a subscription service. We pinky promise to keep the old legacy software around as a fallback in case you don't want the subscription, but we're not going to put a service life in writing, etc."
I've seen this specific promise made many times, by many companies. I've even worked for companies where I mouthed these same kinds of words to customers. After some time, someone comes in and says: "we make money off these subscriptions over here, but these legacy fallback customers are just a drain on our resources ... lets stop updating that software ... sure there will be blowback, but there's only x users on the legacy plan ... we can give them a special discount and manage that situation through marketing. After all, you cannot make everyone happy, but you can create new revenue growth to keep the company healthy. We called it legacy, after all, so everyone should have known we wouldn't support that forever."
I'm realistic enough about how companies operate to say: "it's a matter of when this happens, rather than if." It's easy to make promises when you're financially in a good place, and it's easy to break promises when the economy sours and the spreadsheet turns red.
The bottom line, for me, is this: the entire legacy fallback charade is a transition plan to the bright new future of subscription-only access to the books I've already purchased. At some point I'm going to be forced to either stop accessing that material or purchase a subscription to continue accessing it, pinky promises or not.
0 -
2 - The new subscription model will give you all of the latest features (those released after L10) as well as the right to purchase the latest base package libraries (~L11 or whatever they will be called). The books included with the subscription are a bonus, but may not be that helpful if you already have a huge library.
Which also implies that at some point in the future folks on the legacy fallback plan will not be able to "purchase" new resources. Not that I understand what it means to "purchase" resources in a world where you can only access them via subscription.
This is exactly how abandoning the non-subscription users starts.
0
