Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos

Interesting - I have emails from this thread that do not show up on the actual  thread - is someone deleting posts?

It does look as though two of the posts were edited after the emails were sent, but one post is non-existent

Two likely explanations:

1. The poster deleted it themselves.

2. It was an egregious post that was reported and Faithlife deleted it.

Option 1 is likely with the post that is missing - Option 2 would be amazing if it happened as they did nothing with users being referred to as Satanic when it was reported.

But then again.... Question Logos, speak against decisions that impact your investment and/or have a "negative" view and you can be disparaged, disrespected and insulted without issue.... Not a peep from Logos or Forum "MVPS" towards those treating other users that way, but they'll jump on someone who dares speak against Logos....

Ok, I'll bite. It's probably not wise to engage, but you are touching a topic where users may come here with very different experience from other places. In this side-branch of the thread you are discussing missing posts, censorship and treatment of users. What still continues to amaze me: 

Question Logos, speak against decisions that impact your investment and/or have a "negative" view and you ...

... will find your post visible for the whole world to see, not censored or taken out. This thread is proof of it. Censorship is not a thing here. Usually such posts will be treated with respect, answered very patiently by other users or by Logos employees, and taken as valuable (if negative) feedback. Even people with a bad attitude receive help and support. Posts that are deleted in this forum other than by the user themselves are clearly identifiable spam or technical issues like five times the same post.

Normally, no one "jumps at" users expressing critique or a general hermeneutic of suspicion against Logos. There may be reactions - sometimes people might dare to bring an alternative viewpoint, sometimes even based on years of experience with the product and the company. MVPs may do so as well as other regulars, since MVPs are not the forum police, but users with some experience. Of course, having people disagree with one's point of view is not a nice feeling, but very rarely are people disparaged, disrespected or insulted. It happens (most often in theological rather than product-specific questions). Often MVPs are the ones calling out such behavior, trying to de-escalate and asking people to come back to forum civilty. Very rude and inflaming posts may be taken down (or threads closed) by Logos employees, but there must be massive insults to other users for this to happen - there are only very few instances per year, if any. This on the other hand means that posts will stay up where critique is answered by another user and both parties feel themselves in the right and attacked by the other party. So I concur that Option 2 is very unlikely here.  

 

You can have your view - as others have posted similar opinions to mine, that some views are unwelcome and slights or negative comments towards those views are ignored, but negative views towards Logos are indeed jumped on....

The posts in the emails tied to this thread are evidence of such - a user happened to express that he felt as though some within Logos seemed a little suspicious like a snake in the grass....or a sly fox plotting..... A valid personal opinion, whether any of us agree or not....

Yet that user was met with the typical response from some (It's drama. painted a theatrical scene, quite a leap from reality - from Aaron Sauer) Those sarcastic comments are indeed jumping on someone for having a opinion that is not agreed to!

And of course MJ tossed in her now deleted sarcasm as well - the post was edited, as was Aaron's, but it's a prime example of not all views or opinions being tolerated. Also the hypocrisy is evident as neither condemned the insinuation that disagreeing with Logos or Mark is Satanic, as a matter of fact not a single MVP addressed it and mentioned the Forum Guidelines, which I have seen done through the years... There are plenty of other "slams" directed towards those who question the status quo or speak against decisions that we see as detrimental to our investments....

But when the same complain about lack of response, features, etc... It's not griping, being childish, silly or Satanic.... 

You either see it or you don't....

Most of us have no problem with contrarian views to our own, but we expect to not be insulted when expressing ours.

... my question would have been why that was deleted, but not the reported Satanic post

Well, that's easy. You see, satin critic theology is not the same as satan critic theology.  But I would agree, 'in the old days' the MVPs would have piled on. 

The title of this thread is "Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos," and began with Mark Barnes (Logos) posting on 6 March 2024 about the new subscription model.

I think we can all agree that the discussion that followed has drifted off topic and gone down a number of rabbit holes since then. To put it mildly.

It would help everyone if we could stick to the original topic, or if there are other important issues, simply start a new thread.

Just sayin'

My only concern is whether or not my Logos 10 will be cut off in the future.  

I want to be able to use my Logos in places where there is no internet.  I have already run into this problem with other programs.  They have stopped running when I am in places where I can not "confirm" my identity even though I have had the program since it was originally loaded with a hard disk.

So as long as I can keep running Logos 10 offline, subscriptions are okay with me. ]Many of the features that require constant updating, I haven't learned to use yet].

I think there are two problems here.

I know what Logos has promised in relation to existing resources. I also know what has happened to these promises by every other company moving to a subscription model. My experience with Logos over the years does not encourage me to think: "they're different than other companies."

Edit -- the naming used to describe access to existing resources is Legacy Fallback. For anyone who isn't in IT, "legacy" means that which costs you money but doesn't add value, and hence is not going to be supported in the future, and "fallback" means that which you use when nothing else works as a temporary solution. The naming is indicative of what is coming in the future, regardless of what is being promised today.

I am also worried about buying and accessing resources released in the future without a subscription. A new set of journals come out every year. How long will I be able to buy and access them without a subscription? I suspect the answer is: "until we change the book format to support some new AI sermon-writing thingie, and then all new books will be in that format, and you'll be forced to buy a subscription to get the updated software that works with this new format."

If Logos had a basic set of tools supported only by ongoing book purchases including search and "cited by," I would buy that. All the AI sermon writing, prayer journal (which is private and shouldn't be in Logos in the first place), sermon notes (again, private, and shouldn't be kept in an insecure piece of software like Logos), and the rest are just not interesting. I'd rather keep those things in a format that I don't lose if I ever stop using Logos, and in software managed by folks who take my privacy and security seriously. 

I'm not interested in a subscription to get new features. If I'm forced to buy a subscription to continue purchasing updated and new books, I'll have to rethink using Logos at all.

Subscription fatigue is real.

With books, it’s different. The content of books isn’t continually improved—once they’re published, they’re done. And while we bear small ongoing costs to allow you to download and interact with your books, those costs are orders of magnitude lower than that of AI and similar services. Therefore, you will still be able to buy permanent access to Logos libraries and any other books from our catalog. In the future, we may add rental options for those who want it, but we don’t foresee a time when we’ll stop selling perpetual licenses to books.

So "legacy fallback" means, in your view, "that which will stand forever because it's the position you fall back to whenever all else fails." :-)

If FL were saying: "we're going to continue our current model and add additional features as part of a new subscription in addition to the current model," I'd say, "great, let's see what features might be useful." What they are saying instead is: "This is the new way. The old way is now the fallback. We think we will be able to support the old content forever based on our current financials, but the way we are going to support ourselves now is through subscription-based software and content."

I know a lot of people here love FL, and think FL is the greatest company on the face of the Earth, etc. My past experiences with FL as a company are negative enough that I don't consider FL any sort of "special organization."

My past experiences with FL as a company are negative enough that I don't consider FL any sort of "special organization."

?

Can't speak for Russ, but as a company they do have a history of bankruptcy (been awhile), opening new business lines and then laying off large chunks of employees, buying other companies, committing to churches, and then pulling out. Execution has always been a challenge for them. Legacy their fallback.

In the competitive landscape of Bible software companies (fewer and fewer remain), I firmly believe that Logos will continue to be the leader and thrive in the long run. This conviction is reflected not only in my words but also in my financial investment. I have confidence in the company's ability to innovate, adapt, and meet the evolving needs of its users, ensuring its survival and success in the market.

I don't know that I would call this market "competitive," and I'm not talking about financial survival ...Of course FL is going to "survive," at least until they are bought out at some point. I think Google is going to survive just fine, too, but I avoid their products. As a matter of record, I've spent well over $60k with FL across the years, so I'm not talking from inexperience or ignorance of FL as a company.

All I've said here is my experience is not universally positive, and I don't give FL some sort of "special pass." I don't just "trust" FL will not fall to the same motivations every other IT company I've seen go down this path fall to. I don't develop "relationships" with a companies the way many other people seem to.

Mark, thank you for the detailed explanation. I have a suggestion. With so many apps going to the subscription model, many of us are facing subscription fatigue. May I humbly but urgently ask that you consider including Logos in Setapp? Logos will still receive a subscription for each person who uses the app in Setup and would likely pick up new customers that would be missed otherwise. 

Setapp is not made for subscriptions like Logos and there is no way they would get nearly enough money from each subscription using such a platform.

I'm writing with feedback that you requested in your post and a couple questions regarding subscriptions. You said "We’re still thinking through what that means for purchasable feature sets, and we’d value your feedback on whether the option to purchase would be important to you." I think the Legacy Fallback is a great solution. I regularly use sermon builder and sermon manager and am glad I own them as I have fully integrated with these and would want to know I own them for the long term, even if I stop subscription (I assume items like these are included). This is one reason I bought the full feature set and I would recommend to others who are only starting with Logos after transition. One question. I asked one a Logos affiliate whether there will be any free monthly books life Faithlife connect and they said Pro includes a 4th extra free book of the month (not from Classics series). Where do I access this? They also said subscription includes 5% storewide discount and 5% annual cash back. Are these automatically applied? Thanks! 

It might be a good idea, but two years? I'm pretty sure that in light of what's on offer, I can't even find the motivation to sustain this subscription for that long consecutively, never mind the budget considerations. I'm not sure this means the best thing for consumers or as a business model. I've never been crazy about what seems to me like a "three sizes fit some" subscription model. The lack of involved seems to be the basis for justifying this, and indeed, the basis for this. We don't even know what the company is going to want to do when two years is over.

Mark,

When using the subscription, how much of Logos can't you use when the Internet goes down, or if you are in an area with poor reception?

1Cor10 31">Mark! I have a related question. Going forward, you've said that the Legacy License associated with the subscription would only include non-cloud (and non-AI) features. Is a feature that requires internet  - from the list above - considered a "cloud" feature?

Yes. NET = 'cloud'. But if you own the (L10) feature you will not lose its cloud access e.g. Morph Query.

Perhaps the biggest unknown going forward from L10 is how many features will be independent of the cloud and AI.  Within the next two years I would like to see see a realistic "Fallback" license with a small ongoing charge for cloud and AI.

Thank you Dave.

My question for Mark is: will they mark clearly each and every feature that is being introduced over the next 2 years as a cloud feature or not. They should know it right at the outset. The question is whether they want to make it clear to the customers upfront.