Question: Is it possible to run searches on the cantillation marks / Trope patterns/ te'amim in the
Is it possible to run searches on the cantillation marks / Trope patterns/ te'amim? Could one do so In Logos using the Lexham Hebrew Bible: CantillationAnalysis Dataset? For example how would one go about:
(1a) Finding all the instances when telisha gadol and geresh/gershayim appear on the same word? (e.g Ezek 48:10 ולאלה) .
(1b) Or, designing a search in order to find all words with double cantillation marks?
(2) Fine all instances where a shalshelet appears ?
(3) Search for cantillation patterns or strings such as for instance where a Mercha followed by a Tipcha followed by Mercha ending with a Sof Pasuk ?
Thanks in advance
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
Comments
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I don't know the answer but have you checked Brannan, Rick. Lexham Hebrew Bible: Cantillation Analysis Documentation. Bellingham, WA: Faithlife, 2017. for information?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:I don't know the answer
Never-the-less I highly appreciate your reply! So, thank you very much!
MJ. Smith said:have you checked Brannan, Rick. Lexham Hebrew Bible: Cantillation Analysis Documentation. Bellingham, WA: Faithlife, 2017. for information?
Yes, it basically states that the date base "allows searching by heirarchy or relationship in combination with accent and morphological or lemma combinations." but no explanation how to do this are given nor or examples provided. So, I was curious if any of the forum users could show me how run these types of searches with with Logos.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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I found this:
New Search Matching Commands (logos.com)">
Hebrew/Aramaic
By default, Hebrew is not sensitive to any marks in the query, except for sin and shin dots, which are like the slash in Swedish o-slash: they are different letters.
(Can be overridden with match.nomarks). Additionally, maqqef and space are treated as equivalent.- match.vowels — vowel diacritics in the query will be treated as significant.
- match.dagesh —
- match.accents — cantillation diacritics (te’amim) will be treated as significant.
- match.massora — matches the masora circle.
- match.rafe — matches accent rafe.
- match.critical — matches text-critical marks.
- match.pointed — same as matches for vowels, dagesh, massora, rafe, and critical.
- match.cantillated — same as matches for vowels, dagesh, massora, rafe, critical, and accents.
- match.holem-haser — differentiates between holem and holem haser.
And this which has a syntax example Searching on Hebrew Cantillations - Logos Forums
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:And this which has a syntax example Searching on Hebrew Cantillations - Logos Forums
Thanks for the link it was an interesting discussion!
Sadly there weren't example or screenshot of anyone searching on accents pairs or strings of accents. The 'New matching commands' seems to be more about search on Hebrew words with accent sensitivity than searching on the accents or their patterns althought maybe I am not understanding something here.
Either way I am pretty sure that Logos can do what I would like to do.
Again THANK you so much for your time!
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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Dave should be along soon. He can likely help more.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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You might find these articles and forum posts interesting.
https://forums.accordancebible.com/topic/33155-hebrew-cantillations/
http://www.lrec-conf.org/proceedings/lrec2006/pdf/6_pdf.pdf
<p>Malin, Yonatan. "Eastern Ashkenazi Biblical Cantillation: An Interpretive Musical Analysis." <em>Yuval</em> 10 (2016).</p> https://jewish-music.huji.ac.il/en/yuval/22542
I am like MJ. I am not very good with this type of analysis but hopefully this will help somewhat. I know Dave H. is very good on the forums.
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Christian Alexander said:I am like MJ. I am not very good with this type of analysis
Hey, no worries.
By the way I am not doing analysis, rather I am always trying to find common and good examples cantillation patterns for teaching and practing the K'riat haTorah ( chanting of the Pentateuch) and rest of the Hebrew Bible.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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BKMitchell said:
Yes, it basically states that the date base "allows searching by heirarchy or relationship in combination with accent and morphological or lemma combinations." but no explanation how to do this are given nor or examples provided. So, I was curious if any of the forum users could show me how run these types of searches with with Logos.
This is possible with a syntax search.
If you find syntax search daunting – and most people do! – you can also search cantillations using the context menu in most Bibles. You can create a search for a single example, and then perhaps modify your search to get exactly what you want.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:then perhaps modify your search to get exactly what you want.
Mark Barnes thank you so much for responding to this thread! This is great to know!
If you do not mind I have two more questions.
QUESTION ONE: hypothetically speaking say I was working through a book like "The Art of Torah Cantillation; A step by step guide to Chanting Torah" and came across this page on the אֶתְנַחְתָּא clause...
and wanted to find examples of first etnachta clause varitions: Merkha / מֵרְכָ֥א - Tifha / טִפְחָ֖א - Munnach / מֻנַּח - Etnachta / אֶתְנַחְתָּא to make a worksheet with practice drills how would I do so?
QUESTION TWO: how do I find case where two accents appear on one word? For example:
Genesis 5:29 (זֶ֞֠ה )
Leviticus 10:4 ( קִ֠רְב֞וּ )
Ezekiel 48:10 ( וּ֠לְאֵ֜לֶּה and וְיָ֙מָּה֙ )
Zephaniah 2:15 ( זֹ֞֠את )
Thanks in advance!
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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BKMitchell said:
how do I find case where two accents appear on one word?
Use INTERSECTS as the operator between the two terms may head you in the right direction
BEFORE and AFTER may help on the first question ... you may need to add a WORDS limit as well.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:BKMitchell said:how do I find case where two accents appear on one word?
Use INTERSECTS as the operator between the two terms may head you in the right direction
BEFORE and AFTER may help on the first question ... you may need to add a WORDS limit as well.
Where do I find INTERSECTS? I am not seeing that lable anywhere.
When I open the syntax search window/panel I have the following options for the Cantillation Analysis Graphs:
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:you can also search cantillations using the context menu in most Bibles.
Where do I find the context menu?
I
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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BKMitchell said:
Where do I find the context menu?
You may know it as the right-click menu. It is the guts that run Logos.
Select the cantillation label on left
Copy search argument (upper right) to paste into a search for a more complex search argument
Run search (lower right)
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:You may know it as the right-click menu. It is the guts that run Logos.
Actually, I did not know that so thank you so much for the information and the screenshot.
MJ. Smith said:Select the cantillation label on left
Copy search argument (upper right) to paste into a search for a more complex search argument
Run search (lower right)
Thank you for the step by step instructions and screenshots.
Okay, I was able to get one search running!!! However, there are what seem to me to be four false hits, but it probably has more to me not understanding all the nuances of the search I ran...
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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MJ. Smith said:
you may need to add a WORDS limit as well.
OKAY! Thank you MJ Smith.........This is what I was missing!!!! Now, I am starting to understand the logic behind what seems to be Logos' boolean searches.
Finally, thanks to you MJ Smith and Mark Barnes I was able to understand how to successfully run at least one of my desired searches see below:
Now, I need to figure out how to find two accents one word!
Anyway, thanks a bunch!
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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I'm not sure precisely what you want but it you put all the terms before INTERSECTS in parens, and do the same for all the terms after it, does that eliminate the false positives?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Hey BKMitchell,
congrats on figuring out the cantillation searches and thank you for the screenshot posts. Very helpful and informative! [:)]
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BKMitchell said:
QUESTION TWO: how do I find case where two accents appear on one word? For example:
Genesis 5:29 (זֶ֞֠ה )
Leviticus 10:4 ( קִ֠רְב֞וּ )
Ezekiel 48:10 ( וּ֠לְאֵ֜לֶּה and וְיָ֙מָּה֙ )
Zephaniah 2:15 ( זֹ֞֠את )
cantillation:name:Telisha EQUALS label:(cantillation NOT name:Telisha)
captures the above, except:
Ezek 48.10 וּ֠לְאֵ֜לֶּה can be found using WITHIN 3 CHARS but that proximity also crosses words.
Ezek 48:10 וְיָ֙מָּה֙ is not a double (it only has a single cantillation).
For other instances you theoretically have to repeat the query using other values of name e.g. those that do not appear with the above results.
The query may find words with more than two accents!
All this is a limitation of a simple text-based Search.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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MJ. Smith said:
I'm not sure precisely what you want but it you put all the terms before INTERSECTS in parens, and do the same for all the terms after it, does that eliminate the false positives?
MJ. Smith as always thank you for taking the time to help me!
As, for what I thought were false positives in the first search, that was due 100% to my error in neglecting to limit the intervening items/words in the first search. So, I was able to find the trope/cantillation patterns I was trying forin the second search when I used the "WITH IN (number) WORDS" operator.
Now, that I understand this (or at least I hope so) I can begin finding other patterns!
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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Brian Leathers said:
Hey BKMitchell,
congrats on figuring out the cantillation searches and thank you for the screenshot posts. Very helpful and informative!
Thank you! But, be careful I still trying to learn Logos and I might have gotten something wrong.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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Dave Hooton said:
cantillation:name:Telisha EQUALS label:(cantillation NOT name:Telisha)
captures the above, except:
Ezek 48.10 וּ֠לְאֵ֜לֶּה can be found using WITHIN 3 CHARS but that proximity also crosses words.
Ezek 48:10 וְיָ֙מָּה֙ is not a double (it only has a single cantillation).
For other instances you theoretically have to repeat the query using other values of name e.g. those that do not appear with the above results.
The query may find words with more than two accents!
Hello Dave!
Thank you so much for providing feedback and help!
Dave Hooton said:All this is a limitation of a simple text-based Search.
Looks like I may need to start learning to use the syntax window/Panel to run these type of queries.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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Dave Hooton said:
Ezek 48:10 וְיָ֙מָּה֙ is not a double (it only has a single cantillation).
The database seems to be labeling this as a Pasta, but because this one cantillation is a pair of two marks this is called a Shene Pashtin (or a Tere qadmin) or so I think because I notice that there is a Pasta over both the letter 'Yod' and the letter 'Hey'
Now, when I search for Pasta like this: cantillation:(name:Pashta AND rank:Duke AND type:Disjunctive) the search doesn't seem be limited to Pasta it also picks up the Shene Pashtin. See:
QUESTION: How would I go about limiting the search to find only occurances of the Shene Pashtin?
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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This may need to be placed in its own thread with BUG at the beginning as we need Logos to tell us if this is a data error or a search error.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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The Logos cantillation database doesn't label a combination of 2 Pashta's as a distinct cantillation mark as far as I can tell. The documentation for our cantillation data indicates that we used the accents indicated in this resource https://mechon-mamre.org/c/hr/tables.htm#dis21
The only information I can find about 2 Pashta's comes from Gesenius. In the footnote for the Pashta Gesenius says "If the word in question has the tone on the penultima, Pashta is placed over it also." As an example Gesenius lists (תֹ֙הוּ֙) from Gen 1:2. In the cantillation database this is labeled as a Pashta.
If there is more information about these accents that I should be aware of, I'd be delighted to read more.0 -
Jimmy Parks said:
The Logos cantillation database doesn't label a combination of 2 Pashta's as a distinct cantillation mark as far as I can tell. The documentation for our cantillation data indicates that we used the accents indicated in this resource https://mechon-mamre.org/c/hr/tables.htm#dis21
Thank you that is very helpful to know!
Okay, first a little explaination earlier I wanted to find case where two accents appear on one word and at first I considered Ezek 48:10 וְיָ֙מָּה֙ as an example of this.
See below:
BKMitchell said:QUESTION TWO: how do I find case where two accents appear on one word? For example:
Genesis 5:29 (זֶ֞֠ה )
Leviticus 10:4 ( קִ֠רְב֞וּ )
Ezekiel 48:10 ( וּ֠לְאֵ֜לֶּה and וְיָ֙מָּה֙ )
Zephaniah 2:15 ( זֹ֞֠את )
Thanks in advance!
However, a logos user seened to informed me that Logos considered this be a single cantillation rather than a double:
See below:
Dave Hooton said:Ezek 48:10 וְיָ֙מָּה֙ is not a double (it only has a single cantillation).
Jimmy Parks said:The only information I can find about 2 Pashta's comes from Gesenius. In the footnote for the Pashta Gesenius says "If the word in question has the tone on the penultima, Pashta is placed over it also." As an example Gesenius lists (תֹ֙הוּ֙) from Gen 1:2. In the cantillation database this is labeled as a Pashta.
By the way the term/phrase שני פשטין (Shene pashtin) simply means two Pashta and I want to find a way to exclude occurrences of single Pashta from the occurances of two Pashta in my search results.
Jimmy Parks said:If there is more information about these accents that I should be aware of, I'd be delighted to read more.
Sure thing! Here is a little bit of information you can find the unicode name for the PASHTAYIN (U+0599 U+05A8) (Shene pashtin, Tere qadmin) on the following page:
https://textcreationpartnership.org/docs/dox/cantillation.html(U+0599) by its self is just a single PASHTA, but the following is the double PASHTA (U+0599 U+05A8)
And on the Wikipedia page about Cantillation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_cantillationGesenius is right and Joshua R. Jacobson is basically says the same type thing in '
Chanting the Hebrew Bible: Complete Edition The Complete Guide to the Art of Cantillation 'and on page 418 :
And from pages 23 & 24 of
The Art of Torah Cantillation: A Step-by-Step Guide to Chanting Torah, by Cantor Marshall Portnoy and Cantor Josée Wolff
Regards
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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MJ. Smith said:
This may need to be placed in its own thread with BUG at the beginning as we need Logos to tell us if this is a data error or a search error.
The error is probably a search error, as I still do know much about Logos's cantillation database nor do I really know how to search it well.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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BKMitchell said:
QUESTION TWO: how do I find case where two accents appear on one word? For example:
Genesis 5:29 (זֶ֞֠ה )
Leviticus 10:4 ( קִ֠רְב֞וּ )
Ezekiel 48:10 ( וּ֠לְאֵ֜לֶּה and וְיָ֙מָּה֙ )
Zephaniah 2:15 ( זֹ֞֠את )
There are 3 accent patterns in these examples. The first is 2 Pashtas and the second is a Telisha Gedolah with either a Geresh or Gereshayim.
As I stated in my previous comment. The Logos cantillation database doesn't have a separate label for an instance of double Pashta. There isn't a way to write a search to isolate these instances from others, because they are not labeled differently in the database.
The other patterns does include 2 separately identified accents which can be searched
cantillation:(name:Gereshayim AND rank:Officer AND type:Disjunctive)
cantillation:(name:"Telisha Gedolah" AND rank:Officer AND type:Disjunctive)
cantillation:(name:Geresh AND rank:Officer AND type:Disjunctive)
You can also find these labels in the context menu by right clicking on the word in question and looking under the cantillation label.0 -
Jimmy Parks said:
As I stated in my previous comment. The Logos cantillation database doesn't have a separate label for an instance of double Pashta. There isn't a way to write a search to isolate these instances from others, because they are not labeled differently in the database.
Thank you! This makes sense!
Jimmy Parks said:The other patterns does include 2 separately identified accents which can be searched
cantillation:(name:Gereshayim AND rank:Officer AND type:Disjunctive)
cantillation:(name:"Telisha Gedolah" AND rank:Officer AND type:Disjunctive)
cantillation:(name:Geresh AND rank:Officer AND type:Disjunctive)
You can also find these labels in the context menu by right clicking on the word in question and looking under the cantillation label.Okay one more question:
Is there are way to do a kind of wildcard search? And search for any word that has any two accents?
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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Sorry. I don't know the answer to that
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BKMitchell said:
Is there are way to do a kind of wildcard search?
If you check the Help manual on Label searches, you will see that Label attributes (that are text attributes as opposed to a data type reference) support the use of a wildcard. So, that should work for you.
BKMitchell said:And search for any word that has any two accents?
I'm not at all familiar with cantillation searches, but if you are saying that some words may be marked with multiple cantillation labels, then you may be able to get what you want by specifying two separate cantillation terms joined by the INTERSECTS operator. See the Help manual for detail:
cantillation:(name:....) INTERSECTS cantillation:(name:....)
Andrew Batishko | Logos software developer
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Jimmy Parks said:
Sorry. I don't know the answer to that
Thank you so much for help and for the feedback!
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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Andrew Batishko said:
if you are saying that some words may be marked with multiple cantillation labels, then you may be able to get what you want by specifying two separate cantillation terms joined by the INTERSECTS operator. See the Help manual for detail:
cantillation:(name:....) INTERSECTS cantillation:(name:....)
As far as I can tell the database doesn't mark cases where there are two cantillation/Accents on one word.
So, when I search for: cantillation:(name:Pashta AND rank:Duke AND type:Disjunctive) Logos picks up both case where there is one Pashta on a word and cases where there are two. But, I want to limit the search to case of two Pashta.
Now, if I search for: cantillation:(name:Pashta AND rank:Duke AND type:Disjunctive) INTERSECTS cantillation:(name:Pashta AND rank:Duke AND type:Disjunctive) Logos returns with an error
I wonder would this search be possible in the syntax search panel/window?
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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BKMitchell said:
I wonder would this search be possible in the syntax search panel/window?
It appears possible but the result below is the closest to the cantillation Search e.g.
Perhaps you can explain "one Pashta on a word" from below:
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton,
for reply and providing advice on how to to use Logos!
Dave Hooton said:It appears possible but the result below is the closest to the cantillation Search
e.Perhaps you can explain "one Pashta on a word" from below:
Okay, now there is a bit of a mystery here.
In the screen shot above the lines from the two Pashta labels in the first example the lines are not all going to הָאָ֙רֶץ֙ . Pashta A (D) is going to הָאָ֙רֶץ֙ (okay! this what I expected) but the line from Pashta B (D) is going דֶּ֔שֶׁא even though דֶּ֔שֶׁא has a Zaqef Qaton not a Pashta. I was expecting to see the lines coming from both Pashta A (D) and Pashta B (D) pointing to הָאָ֙רֶץ֙ as that is the word that has the two accents: see below:
Now as for the second example above there two Pashta labels in the diagram, when there is actually only one Pashta. See below the Pashta is colored Red while the other accents are colored blue:
Now, I may very well be misunderstanding these diagrams, and in fact I think I may because I am confused.
But, regardless thank you Dave Hooton for taking the time to try to help me figure this out! I am sure my question might be a little annoying and maybe strange or unconventional.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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BKMitchell said:
I am sure my question might be a little annoying and maybe strange or unconventional.
I know little of Hebrew, especially when it comes to marks. But you asked the question!
I was confused over the hierarchy and had to include the Emperor (Prose) to indicate all the Pashta segments
BKMitchell said:Pashta A (D) is going to הָאָ֙רֶץ֙ (okay! this what I expected) but the line from Pashta B (D) is going דֶּ֔שֶׁא even though דֶּ֔שֶׁא has a Zaqef Qaton not a Pashta.
The Zaqef Qaton includes both Pashta in the Cantillation Analysis Graph from which I built the query.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
I know little of Hebrew, especially when it comes to marks. But you asked the question!
Well then thank you very much for answering and giving me some tips.
Dave Hooton said:I was confused over the hierarchy and had to include the Emperor (Prose) to indicate all the Pashta segments
It is complex! Logos must have put in a lot of effort and hours to make this database!
Dave Hooton said:The Zaqef Qaton includes both Pashta in the Cantillation Analysis Graph from which I built the query.
Thank you that is helpful to know.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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Hey BK, I think that I might have found the answer question (1a) Finding all the instances when telisha gadol and geresh/gershayim appear on the same word? (e.g Ezek 48:10 ולאלה) .:
Still working on this one but this is the only solution that I have found so far. I'm also working on your other questions as well. Let me know what you think about this search.
Ok, did some more work on this search, I think this search gets at what you are looking for:
Here is the search that I used:
cantillation:(name:Gereshayim AND rank:Officer AND type:Disjunctive) INTERSECTS cantillation:(name:"Telisha Gedolah" AND rank:Officer AND type:Disjunctive)
Let me know what you think.
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BK, I believe that I might have found the answer to (1b) Or, designing a search in order to find all words with double cantillation marks?:
This is the search that I used:
cantillation:(name:* AND rank:Officer AND type:Disjunctive) WITHIN 0 WORDS cantillation:(name:* AND rank:Officer AND type:Disjunctive)
Let me know what you think.
*Disregard the above search*
Here is what I think you were looking for:
Let me know if this is what you're looking for.
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BK, here is the answer to (2) Fine all instances where a shalshelet appears ?:
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Hey BK,
Here is the answer to (3) Search for cantillation patterns or strings such as for instance where a Mercha followed by a Tipcha followed by Mercha ending with a Sof Pasuk ?:
Here is the search that I used:
cantillation:(name:Merkha AND type:Conjunctive) THEN cantillation:(name:Tifha AND rank:King AND type:Disjunctive) THEN cantillation:(name:Merkha AND type:Conjunctive) THEN cantillation:(name:"Sof Pasuq" AND rank:"High Emperor" AND type:Disjunctive)
Let me know if this helps you.
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Here is another interesting search:cantillation:(name:Tifha AND rank:King AND type:Disjunctive) THEN cantillation:(name:Munnach AND type:Conjunctive) THEN cantillation:(name:Athnah AND rank:Emperor AND type:Disjunctive) THEN cantillation:(name:Merkha AND type:Conjunctive). This one got 940 hits in 940 verses.
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You can really do some interesting cantillation searches with Logos. Here is another interesting pattern: cantillation:(name:Munnach AND type:Conjunctive) THEN cantillation:(name:"Zaqef Qaton" AND rank:King AND type:Disjunctive) THEN cantillation:(name:Tifha AND rank:King AND type:Disjunctive) THEN cantillation:(name:Merkha AND type:Conjunctive) THEN cantillation:(name:"Sof Pasuq" AND rank:"High Emperor" AND type:Disjunctive)
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Brian Leathers thank you for your Helculean effort and ingenuity in attempting to help me out with these searches! I greatly appreciate this!
Brian Leathers said:Hey BK, I think that I might have found the answer question (1a) Finding all the instances when telisha gadol and geresh/gershayim appear on the same word? (e.g Ezek 48:10 ולאלה)Still working on this one but this is the only solution that I have found so far. I'm also working on your other questions as well. Let me know what you think about this search..........
Ok, did some more work on this search, I think this search gets at what you are looking for:............Here is the search that I used:............
cantillation:(name:Gereshayim AND rank:Officer AND type:Disjunctive) INTERSECTS cantillation:(name:"Telisha Gedolah" AND rank:Officer AND type:Disjunctive)
Let me know what you think.
The above search finds
Genesis 5:29, Leviticus 10:4, and Zephaniah 2:15 but it does not find Eziekel 48:10 (וּ֠לְאֵ֜לֶּה) Because while it does have Telisha Gedolah the word does not have a Gereshayim. It has a Geresh and a Telisha Gedolah = cantillation:(name:Geresh AND rank:Officer AND type:Disjunctive) and a cantillation:(name:"Telisha Gedolah" AND rank:Officer AND type:Disjunctive)
The following search will find Eziekel 48:10 (וּ֠לְאֵ֜לֶּה)
cantillation:(name:Geresh AND rank:Officer AND type:Disjunctive) WITHIN 3 CHARS cantillation:(name:"Telisha Gedolah" AND rank:Officer AND type:Disjunctive) But it is not limited to one word with the two accents.
Brian Leathers said:designing a search in order to find all words with double cantillation marks?:….
A search like this would I think require the use of wildcards in the place the cantillation marks in order to find all words with any two cantillation marks. At the moment this search does not appear possible or at least I have not figure out how to make it work, yet.
However, have said that I want to reiterate my gratitude for you effort thus far in helping me to try to figure out Logos! Thank you!
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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Again, and before I start this post I would like to thank you for your effort in attempting this ...
Brian Leathers said:BK, here is the answer to (2) Fine all instances where a shalshelet appears ?:
The search results are puzzling to me because there are 47 (or 46) occurances of the shalshelet in the Tanakh (OT):
Genesis 19:16 Genesis 24:12 Genesis 39:8 Leviticus 8:23 Isaiah 13:8 Amos 1:2 Psalms 3:3 Psalms 7:6 Psalms 10:2 Psalms 12:8 Psalms 13:2 Psalms 13:3 Psalms 20:8 Psalms 29:11 Psalms 33:12 Psalms 34:8 Psalms 41:8 Psalms 44:9 Psalms 49:14 Psalms 50:6 Psalms 52:5 Psalms 65:2 Psalms 66:7 Psalms 67:5 Psalms 68:15 Psalms 72:3 Psalms 77:4 Psalms 89:2 Psalms 89:3 Psalms 94:17 Psalms 131:1 Psalms 137:9 Psalms 143:6 Psalms 143:11 Psalms 146:3 Job 5:19 Job 15:23 Job 16:9 Job 32:6 Job 37:12 Job 40:23 Proverbs 1:9 Proverbs 6:10 Proverbs 6:27 Proverbs 24:33 Ezra 5:15
Logos and this Database are very powerful, but I think more documentation is needed to use this awesome database properly.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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Brian Leathers said:
ou can really do some interesting cantillation searches with Logos.
I think this will be true for me as well once I am figure out the quirks and characteristic of the database and logos. Some of the searches we have tried work very well, but others bring odd or surprising results and some searches do not work at all. I think this is due to my lack of understanding of Logos and this database.
HOWEVER having said that it is very important to note that Logos ability to do even the above is very exceptional as is one of only two ready available programs that can run these type of searches. And, Logos is the only current modern program that has set out create tagged database of the cantillation marks! The no longer avaible BibleWorks program had the J.D. Price Accent Database of the Hebrew Bible, but it alas that program and database have vanished.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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Thanks BK. My pleasure. I'm still figuring out how to do these types of searches and your search questions have challenged me to get better educated in Logos' search vocabulary. A lot of trial and error for sure, lol. Thank you for the feedback. Here is what I discovered on one of the searches regarding the Shalsheleth:
This one found 33 results but not 46. And here is why:
You're right. The database needs some correction in tagging. But at least Logos has developed an incredible database to do these searches and with some corrections in tagging, it will be even better. Thanks for challenging me to get better at these searches and I really appreciate your feedback. [Y]
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Brian Leathers said:
Here is what I discovered on one of the searches regarding the Shalsheleth:
Thank you for your feedback and doing some detective work!
Brian Leathers said:You're right. The database needs some correction in tagging.
Well, I think it needs more documentation( as in guides or a manual) to help people getting started with this database AND I hope this thread is a start at that.
Brian Leathers said:But at least Logos has developed an incredible database to do these searches
'at least'? LOL, Logos is the only current software I know of with a tagged database specifically for the cantillations and a with cantillation tree database. The now unavailable BibleWorks had the The J.D. Price Accent Database of the OT, but sadly that database never transitioned to another software platform.
Brian Leathers said:Thanks for challenging me to get better at these searches and I really appreciate your feedback.
I hope these discussions of ours will be helpful to current and future users of this database. And, I also hope that some of the current users of this database will chime in, share, and comment, too.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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