FEEDBACK WANTED: New Resource Toolbar on Desktop
Comments
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Tim Deahl said:
Way too much clutter! More complicated, redundant than former, simpler, cleaner tool bar!
I'm really surprised that you noticed this. It is hard to detect ... I'm just guessing that, from the quietness at Faithlife. Smiling.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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MJ. Smith said:
Logos provided this in the form of the multi-view panel. Because we don't know the details of the system architecture we have to trust their judgement on how to implement a feature.
I've really wondered about the advisability of the MultiView (multi-book?) vs follower-links. Myself, I'm guilty of over-use of the multiviews (actually, wildly abusive). But I've wondered that most Logosians probably are not all that different from the mobile approach ... a basic layout; not too complicated.
It is probably true, the underlying link code is spagetti-ish from 2008-9. I only surmise that, watching the bugs (between resources and tools) that survive 'to this day'.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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The more I look at the Toolbar and use it, the less I like it. Apart from the visual pollution (I'm a visual minimalist), the excessive number of clicks is torture for me. I want to believe that Faithlife's software engineers will have the good sense to leave a customizable choice for advanced users.
This new bar could be activated by default so that new users can already see it as a starting point, but leave the option for advanced users:
- Have the option of activating a remodeled version of the old toolbar (except “Change Book”, which was excellent).
- Have the option to hide the toolbar labels/titles, making it visually cleaner.
- Have the option to set shortcuts for frequently used tools, e.g. interlinear, auto-translation, visual filters, etc.
I want to believe that Faithlife will not ignore the request of the users who brought Logos to what it is today. I want to believe!
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"... And do not be grieved, for the joy of the LORD is your strength." (Ne 8.10)
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DMB said:
I've really wondered about the advisability of the MultiView (multi-book?) vs follower-links. Myself, I'm guilty of over-use of the multiviews (actually, wildly abusive).
I really like the way the “Multiple Book Display” or “Multiple Book View” or “Add parallel text” works. Because, unlike “follow”, it saves where it left off and, when I open some bibles, it opens with the parallel book that I usually use. I find this fantastic for my use.
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"... And do not be grieved, for the joy of the LORD is your strength." (Ne 8.10)
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Have I mentioned we need more shortcut-keys.
Especially to start a search. No matter which resource toolbar is active. The right shortcut-key and I can search right away.
Thanks
Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·
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DMB said:Tim Deahl said:
Way too much clutter! More complicated, redundant than former, simpler, cleaner tool bar!
I'm really surprised that you noticed this. It is hard to detect ... I'm just guessing that, from the quietness at Faithlife. Smiling.
I'm hoping that the quietness means that they are in the process of fixing the issue by allowing for users to have a choice of toolbars.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Anderson Abreu said:
The more I look at the Toolbar and use it, the less I like it. Apart from the visual pollution (I'm a visual minimalist), the excessive number of clicks is torture for me. I want to believe that Faithlife's software engineers will have the good sense to leave a customizable choice for advanced users.
The more I use it, the less intrusive the extra clicks have become. I'm a heavy mouse user (Not pad or shortcut) and have found that the more compact designs make the clicks physically close to each other so there is less time spent moving from one click to the next. My biggest slowdown is that I still guess wrong on where to look for formatting vs. view. Would I like a quick toggle interlinear, filter, multiview on/off... Yes. Can I live without it for the greater good? Yeah ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Fabian said:
We have a word in German for the new Toolbar Klickibunti
For old Steppenwolf fans: Mouseklickenloudenboomer.
macOS (Logos Pro - Beta) | Android 13 (Logos Stable)
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Frank Sauer said:
I'm hoping that the quietness means that they are in the process of fixing the issue by allowing for users to have a choice of toolbars.
I doubt it... I think its too close to the big event. My guess is that this is what we are stuck with.
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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John Goodman said:Frank Sauer said:
I'm hoping that the quietness means that they are in the process of fixing the issue by allowing for users to have a choice of toolbars.
I doubt it... I think its too close to the big event. My guess is that this is what we are stuck with.
You're likely right.... I guess I'm holding out hope that it can be done - considering the video Mark posted that clearly showed his version of Logos containing an option of toolbars....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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MJ. Smith said:
Would I like a quick toggle interlinear, filter, multiview on/off... Yes. Can I live without it for the greater good? Yeah ...
But.. but... what is the greater good? Sure, it might take a little longer for a new user to figure out, but once they do, they'll learn to love it and be grateful it's there. The single click on/off is the one feature I miss most, and as time goes on I miss it more, not less.
When I first started using Logos I didn't understand this feature of the toolbar. But when I got it, I thought it was brilliant! I'm sure glad they didn't dumb down the old toolbar for me or I never would have had the opportunity to discover the superior functionality of having both the on/off and the drop-down menu available within a single click. In my opinion keeping this functionality serves the greater good.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
But.. but... what is the greater good?
Sorry but I am too busy tonight to track down the post in which Mark gave the test lab results for newbies and experienced users. But the redesign is in keeping with UI research, it tested well in the lab, and I can understand the rationale behind it. Is it what I would have done? No. Are there parts of it I find annoying? Yes. Are there lost actions I miss? Yes. But the lab improved results vs. the cost for experienced users convinces me that it is for the greater good. I emphatically don't consider the forums to be a representative cross-section and am not surprised by the resistance here.
But I should admit that my utter exhaustion with skipping repetitive subscription posts and my apprehension at a whole new wave after the upcoming release, may influence my "don't fight it without solid evidence" attitude.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I respect your readiness to sacrifice personal preference for the greater good (I get the feeling you are well-practiced in that regard). I agree by and large with your assessment. Nonetheless, this is me casting my vote in hopes of them working to strike a balance between usability and efficiency.MJ. Smith said:Is it what I would have done? No. Are there parts of it I find annoying? Yes. Are there lost actions I miss? Yes. But the lab improved results vs. the cost for experienced users convinces me that it is for the greater good.
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I love the new toolbar, more than the old. Less travel time to access features, access to features closer together. I prefer extra clicks rather than having to continually mouse over to the edge of the pane, or the screen to access features. I think it is Fitt's law, relating to software application development, that prefers time efficiency over less clicks.
There is room for more refinement in the design, as people have pointed out, like the ability to activate/deactivate the interlinear feature more efficiently, but I would not want to go back.
There is also the people who have a workflow, honed after long use, there's no easy answer for that.
👁️ 👁️
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Aaron Hamilton said:
this is me casting my vote in hopes of them working to strike a balance between usability and efficiency.
I should clarify: I mean usability for new users and efficiency for more experienced users. After all, no one is a new user forever (assuming they use Logos regularly).
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Don't forget that they didn't just redesign the toolbar but also moved some functions from the panel menu into the toolbar. I think their biggest mistake was leaving the FIND in the panel menu.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Don't forget that they didn't just redesign the toolbar but also moved some functions from the panel menu into the toolbar
I think this is very helpful.
MJ. Smith said:I think their biggest mistake was leaving the FIND in the panel menu.
I think it would be fantastic to see this integrated in the search tab. I do understand that it may be confusing having it so close to inline search, because many people are not aware of the difference. However, I'd be pleased if there were a way to make it happen that would mitigate the confusion.
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MJ. Smith said:
it tested well in the lab
I missed the post where this tested well in the lab so I'm missing some key information. Logos did use the forum to ask for feedback. In general, the forum feedback seems more negative than positive.
Currently, those who are using the subscriber toolbar are:
1. Those who support Logos through a subscription
2. Those who are willing to test new features in betaIf you are willing to subscribe and test new features, you are likely more willing to adopt software changes (of course not 100% of people).
From the anecdotal forum response, the core invested Logos user seems to favor the older, simpler non-subscriber toolbar. If some of your most invested and committed Logos users don't like it, why are you doing it? Either scrap it completely or at least give the option of the toolbar that non-subscribers use. The option only removes something that Logos considers a feature benefit.
Will the subscriber toolbar create an incentive for some to subscribe? Perhaps. Will it cause some to want to unsubscribe? In my case, yes. Will it create confusion for new Logos users? Absolutely. If a new user watches tutorial videos, many video tutorials will have to explain the differences in the toolbars and interface. The teacher may even have to record two versions for at least parts of the video: one using the simpler toolbar with fewer clicks and one using the subscriber toolbar.
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Hello
Who cares about the 0.01 sec?
I know BW was always pride of and has included this too.
Completely unnecessary.
But what cares is a Shortcut-Key to jump to the next hit.
There is no Command+G or so.
If I hover over there is also no shortcut-key given.
This would be necessary.
The shortcut-key should work even we are in the search tab.
Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·
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Just updated to 37.0 and got the "New Resource Toolbar". I am using a Surface Pro 8 and with the keyboard I can access everything. I can use my finger and touch screen it works. But with the Stylus I am not able to use the "New ResourceToolbar.
I can use the Stylus in all the other areas fine though.
Thanks for any help.
JT
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I don't see the option to switch to a parallel resource. I miss that. Click on that and see a few dozen commentaries or lexicons.
How did you not see that?
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Larry Craig said:
I don't see the option to switch to a parallel resource.
The book icon just before the navigation box.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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You have to select view, then it's under the navigation box
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First impressions of the new dynamic toolbar:
1. Since I built a comprehensive folder system on the main toolbar, much of what is on the dynamic toolbar is redundant for me.
2. Several items that appear in the dynamic toolbar dropdowns are things for which I have no use.
3. Because of 1. and 2., the small number of items I would use which have been moved from the "three dots" menu are harder to get to than they were. Customizability (specifically, removing and adding tools to the dynamic toolbar) would greatly increase its functionality for me.
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You saw a parallel books option? I don't see it/
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thank you
whew, that was upsetting for me
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Larry Craig said:
You saw a parallel books option? I don't see it/
The little book icon has a drop down, click on the book to see parallel resources
👁️ 👁️
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Aaron Hamilton said:
One of the main things I miss is the one click toggle on/off of the old toolbar.
I had a thought today. In order to not divide the button into two parts (which might be confusing for new users), but still keep the same functionality, could a double click be used? For example: a single click on the interlinear button would open the drop-down menu, while a double click in quick succession would toggle interlinear options on and off. This perhaps would give users the best of both worlds?
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