Official: Here's what's included/excluded from the Legacy Fallback License
Comments
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DMB said:
But customer retention, relative to 'buying' ... I think that'll be the primary question.
I promised myself not to engage in these threads D but once again temptation wins the day[:O]
Customer retention, I think will not be accomplished at the extremes of the usage bell curve but in the middle.
Logos will accomplish this by concentrating on the things that all users want or need. Primary among these will be Reading Plans.
If a customer is using the app for reading they will be coming back to it day after day and will find the app useful. That customer will not, perhaps be spending much on resources but will want to keep a subscription going. The problem is that when one wants to read a 'book' rather than a Bible setting up a sensible reading plan can be very frustrating. So much so that I have not done it for some time. If reading was my primary focus I would have stopped the moment I tried to read one book of Tom Wright's four volume trilogy. Arbitrary reading endings would have had me dump my subscription.
In terms of customer retention the developers do need to focus on the things that bring most subscribers back to the program day after day.
tootle pip
Mike
How to get logs and post them.(now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs) Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Mike Binks said:
[In terms of customer retention the developers do need to focus on the things that bring most subscribers back to the program day after day.
I believe the point that is missing to this is what about the retention of the long time customers that to be honest helped sustain the company for years with their purchases? Forget about them for the shiny new subscriber base? Leaving behind faithful customers is a risk for any company, possibly more for a company with a narrow customer base as it is....
Adding subscribers while allowing the traditional path would accomplish your point of Logos "concentrating on the things that all users want or need"
Telling long time users subscribe or no new features for you is a slap in the face IMHO...
As I have stated in other posts, I am truly trying to talk myself into subscribing for at least one two year cycle.... BUT - the continued concentration on the "new" or "non-power" user is holding me back.... (I have no desire for the new toolbar at this time, maybe that changes but at this time - I have to change my workflow for the "new" user (who may or may not become a faithful user) (Also never getting an answer as to why we cannot just pay for the 2 years for LFL qualified features only - thus retaining the customers who have no interest in the AI features or temporary books - the only response I've seen so far is that we would miss out on AI and the books.... And if the user does not want those things anyways? No answer - it should save Logos money with no cost of AI tokens)
Before someone chimes in with another misrepresentation, as has been done numerous times - I have given Logos credit for extending the Last Chance Sale and for the limited attempt to respond to customer backlash with the LFL - but there is a customer base that will not be retained due to that decision. Speaking for myself - while I am trying to find a reason to subscribe, I will not just for the sake of doing so. I am also the customer that, once you lose me - I'm done with you.... If my status as a long time customer wasn't valued at "x" time - don't come around asking me to come back if you change your system again.
Again, the thing that can get frustrating is not the change alone - but the comments that are made by Logos and some users who are all in on the subscription along the lines of "the best for all customers" - while in reality, there is a group of customers that is sitting back wondering where their spot in that "all" exists and seeing that it does not!
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Rick Ausdahl said:Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
The Legacy Fallback License is as new to us as it is to you, so it's especially difficult for us to make predictions about the future. So take what I'm about to say as an indication of how we're currently thinking, not of 100% guarantees of exactly what will happen.
Christopher Randall said:So it will purely be a subscription model only with no "ownership/perpetual license" for non-logos 10 owners who are not in the LFL track (speaking primarily for new customers, not those who have older versions)?
Those are our current plans, yes. As you know, the vast majority of subscriptions do not offer any fallback. But we heard that was important to customers who had already bought into our perpetual model, and we wanted to recognize their loyalty and commitment over the years and help make the transition to subscription easier for them. So, we created this perk for them.
Mark, one thing that concerns me with the statement "Those are our current plans, yes. As you know, the vast majority of subscriptions do not offer any fallback.", is it seems to NOT acknowledge that the subscription part only applies to the features, not to the resources people purchase for their libraries--resources we have accepted as having higher prices due to all the tagging, etc., done by Faithlife, to make them more valuable than the same resources purchased elsewhere. Without the option for future feature subscribers to earn/purchase a fallback license, they will lose the value of the higher prices paid for their library resources. That would make it very difficult for me to recommend Logos to potential new subscribers who would have no LFL option, knowing they would be paying a premium for their library resources, only to lose the benefit of those higher resource prices if they are unable to maintain their features subscription, which is what really make their resources worthy of the higher pricing.
Well said - I have heard from the point of view that the other ebook sellers never charge me for their readers, even when new features are added to the application.... One specifically mentioned the outrage of having to pay for light/dark mode improvements that most apps have for free... (I don't need it, so it doesn't affect me - but point taken).
Even with the point made that the feature content created in Logos being more "in depth" - the general satisfaction is not there for many...
For the sake of those that have made the investments we have, I hope that this decision does not backfire for Logos.... Subscriptions are easy to drop - purchases are not...
Risking the alienation of long time customers for the possibility that new users will balance out is a risk that the new Logos seems willing to take - but with that decision - the customers who feel left out... Well it should be understood
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Mike Binks said:
I promised myself not to engage in these threads D but once again temptation wins the day
Customer retention, I think will not be accomplished at the extremes of the usage bell curve but in the middle.
Logos will accomplish this by concentrating on the things that all users want or need. Primary among these will be Reading Plans.
Promises, promises. But your comments always have an interesting edge to them!
I had not considered reading plans. I've never used them personally. I typically am reading 3 books at a time, depending on the excitement! Yesterday was Ashurbanipal's Assyrian treaty threats! An ancient bowed leader: 'Using MY diety for HIS benefit! MY diety picked ME. And blew it! Just not fair.!" Anyway, back to reality.
But I do spend quite of bit of time in the 'readers' world on the big-A. It combines 'well, that was good .... same author?' to 'well, that was good ... same subject?' to 'Goodness, why'd I buy THAT??'. It seems (guessing) to me the software is a convenience ... major UI changes unwanted, and 'features' unneeded. And unfortunately, 'mucho book purchasing' also unneeded.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Frank Sauer said:
Adding subscribers while allowing the traditional path would accomplish your point of Logos "concentrating on the things that all users want or need"
Telling long time users subscribe or no new features for you is a slap in the face IMHO...
My thoughts exactly.
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Rick Ausdahl said:
Mark, one thing that concerns me with the statement "Those are our current plans, yes. As you know, the vast majority of subscriptions do not offer any fallback.", is it seems to NOT acknowledge that the subscription part only applies to the features, not to the resources people purchase for their libraries--resources we have accepted as having higher prices due to all the tagging, etc., done by Faithlife, to make them more valuable than the same resources purchased elsewhere.
FL have stated that resource purchases will continue as is for subscribers and non-subscribers (incl. those who go off subscription), and non-subscribers will continue to receive app updates to ensure compatibility with new OS, and updates/fixes associated with resources.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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When it says early features and old feature
Dose it mean
After to years U get to keep the early access features after 2 years or only old features after 2 years
Also
Is read aloud included?
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Berechiah said:
When it says early features and old feature
Dose it mean
After to years U get to keep the early access features after 2 years or only old features after 2 years
Also
Is read aloud included?
If it is not included on the list of excluded features, then it will be included in the Legacy Fallback License (LFL). Thus, yes, read aloud will be included. Old features refers to Logos 10 full feature set, early access is the current version of the subscription from when it started in March or so until when the official subscription launches on or before November 1st.
The LFL is a unique package of features. It will not include all features from the subscription nor from the full feature set. But it will include features that don't exist yet, being as it will be released about two years from now.
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I am getting more and more disappointed, to be honest.
We were told there would be a legacy fallback license for all customers! And that it was going to include all non-ai or cloud features!
This is no longer the case.
Why?
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Pedro Pozo said:
We were told there would be a legacy fallback license for all customers!
I do not believe this is the case. Can you provide a reference for this statement?
Pedro Pozo said:And that it was going to include all non-ai or cloud features!
What excluded feature do you believe does not make use of AI or the cloud?
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Pedro Pozo said:
I am getting more and more disappointed, to be honest.
We were told there would be a legacy fallback license for all customers! And that it was going to include all non-ai or cloud features!
This is no longer the case.
Why?
I don't remember hearing/reading this anywhere, though I could have missed it (I didn't read all 1400+ posts on this mega thread https://community.logos.com/forums/t/221543.aspx). Can you link to where you got this from?
Pastor, Mt. Leonard Baptist Church, SBC
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In the first post on this thread Mark Barnes says:
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:After many, many, requests, I'm finally able to give more details on what is likely to be included and excluded from the Legacy Fallback License (LFL). I'm sorry it's taken so long.
As a reminder, the LFL will be granted to subscribers after two years of continual subscription as a kind of "safety net" if you find you're no longer able to subscribe. That means you can be confident that you'll be able to use many Logos features long into the future. Perks and most books are not included in the LFL.
The LFL perk will only be given to people who already own a Logos base package or feature set or otherwise qualify for one of the discounted subscription tracks. It won't be offered to new customers..
👁️ 👁️
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Thanks I appreciate the response
So with pro
Just to confirm
I can have read aloud after 2 years to keep an be mine
Will bible browser be available too?
And if so will all the tags used be there?
Apart from the keep features
Is print library in logos pro subscription? Not to keep but Is it accessible?
Thanks again
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Thanks I appreciate the response
So with pro
Just to confirm
I can have read aloud after 2 years to keep an be mine
Will bible browser be available too?
And if so will all the tags used be there?
Apart from the keep features
Is print library in logos pro subscription? Not to keep but Is it accessible?
Thanks again
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Thanks I appreciate the response
So with pro
Just to confirm
I can have read aloud after 2 years to keep an be mine
Will bible browser be available too?
And if so will all the tags used be there?
Apart from the keep features
Is print library in logos pro subscription? Not to keep but Is it accessible?
Thanks again
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Please forgive me for being a little slow to understand
Dose that mean there apart from them 4 things
Mentioned in logos max that is excluded every thing else from logos 10 full features set is included?
Like
Preach modes
Read aloud
Bible browser
All the tags that come in logos 10 FFS only those 4 things are not included is that right
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Print library is not listed in logos max section
.... Dose that mean it is included in the fallback ? I know people said it's not but .... Are people sure?
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Berechiah said:
Dose that mean there apart from them 4 things
Mentioned in logos max that is excluded every thing else from logos 10 full features set is included?
No. For features excluded, you need to start with "From Logos Premium and up." Everything that is excluded from Logos Premium will also be excluded from Logos Pro and Logos Max (because both of these levels are "up" from the Logos Premium level).
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Berechiah said:
Print library is not listed in logos max section
.... Dose that mean it is included in the fallback ? I know people said it's not but .... Are people sure?
The Print Library is excluded from the fallback license. In the first post, it is specifically excluded from Logos Pro and up ("up" would be Max), and the level of features that are eligible for Premium does not include the Print Library feature. The Print Library is a cloud feature; cloud features are excluded from the fallback license. This restriction applies to all levels: Premium, Pro, and Max.
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Reposting from first page so more people can see. This is also why there is still value inning the Logos 10 Full Feature Set.
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:After many, many, requests, I'm finally able to give more details on what is likely to be included and excluded from the Legacy Fallback License (LFL). I'm sorry it's taken so long.
As a reminder, the LFL will be granted to subscribers after two years of continual subscription as a kind of "safety net" if you find you're no longer able to subscribe. That means you can be confident that you'll be able to use many Logos features long into the future. Perks and most books are not included in the LFL.
The LFL perk will only be given to people who already own a Logos base package or feature set or otherwise qualify for one of the discounted subscription tracks. It won't be offered to new customers.
Some features will be excluded from that license, primarily those that are cloud or AI-based, as they have high ongoing costs that are covered by the subscription payments. Many of you have asked for a list of those exclusions.
The first LFL will not be issued until October 2026, and many more features will be added between now and then. This list only deals with current features (including early access features). If possible, we'll try to identify whether future features will likely be eligible for the LFL when they are released.
So, likely exclusions of current and early access features from the Legacy Fallback License are:
From Logos Premium and up:
- Early access features:
- Smart Search
- Smart Synopsis
- Help Center
- Summarization (including in search results)
- Bible Study Builder AI Questions
- Older features:
- Factbook Tags (apart from most tags in Bibles)
- Community Tags
- Fuzzy Bible Search
- Insert Media in Notes
- Bible Browser
- Atlas Tool
- Media Tool
- Assorted Media
From Logos Pro and up:
- Early access features:
- Sermon Assistant
- Older features:
- Print Library Catalog
- Sermon Manager Import
- Sermon Builder Popular Quotations Sidebar
- Text Comparison Interlinears
From Logos Max:
- Older features:
- Auto-Translation
- Lemma in Passage
- Morph Query Engine (this is different from Morph Search)
- Online Manuscript Dataset
If you already own any of these features, their presence on this list does NOT mean they will be taken away from you. It just means that people without these features will likely not have them granted to them via LFL.
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🙏
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Steven MacDonald said:
Reposting from first page so more people can see. This is also why there is still value inning the Logos 10 Full Feature Set.
Yes, but the benefits are not restricted to owners of the L10 Full Feature set.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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I think this may be a stupid question, but will still ask. [:)]
I'm currently a Pro subscriber. If I keep the subscription for two years, I'll get the LFL. Logos Pro includes the Logos Research Commentaries. Would this series be included in my LFL?
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WH Kim said:
I think this may be a stupid question, but will still ask.
I'm currently a Pro subscriber. If I keep the subscription for two years, I'll get the LFL. Logos Pro includes the Logos Research Commentaries. Would this series be included in my LFL?
Books which are part of the subscription are temporary licenses; you lose access to them when you unsubscribe. The fallback license is for features only; books are not included.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
We do not have plans to make LFL a purchaseable product.
Mark, although it's not in the plans now, at least consider selling the non-cloud features after a period in which the subscription has already benefited subscribers with new features, but now they are “old” features. The following example makes the idea more understandable:
In 2026, when everyone who has subscribed receives the eligible LFL features, there could be a “feature pack” from the year 2025 for purchase by those who haven't subscribed at a prorated value that more or less corresponds to a subscription to those non-cloud features. These non-cloud features are no longer new and have already been paid for with the subscription.
This would keep subscribers like me who like new features fresh, as well as allowing the less enthusiastic basic user (there are many) to add improvements to the software engine and features from time to time. There could be a lag of a year or two for these improvements to be purchased by non-subscribers.
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"... And do not be grieved, for the joy of the LORD is your strength." (Ne 8.10)
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WH Kim said:
I'm currently a Pro subscriber. If I keep the subscription for two years, I'll get the LFL. Logos Pro includes the Logos Research Commentaries. Would this series be included in my LFL?
This was a question I had because of the following. In addition to the features, the Full Feature Set has some books/resources such as interlinears and dictionaries etc. Since it's a feature set and the subscriptions are also that, I wondered if I would receive some of these resources in LFL. But the answer I received by e-mail was no. This has also been answered by them on the forum. We won't be receiving any books or interlinears on LFL.
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"... And do not be grieved, for the joy of the LORD is your strength." (Ne 8.10)
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I keep wondering how Logos will manage and differentiate all the various levels of functionality that users have with the new subscription model.
I see that there is now an attempt to establish a common baseline for everyone with the Full Feature Set of Logos 10. But we know that not everyone will buy it. And many users in the future will come with zero features, paying the full subscription price. With the previous purchasing and dynamic pricing model, it was "easy" to calculate the differences and charge a fair price for each user. But how will this be handled with the subscription model?
Every two years, new features will be added to the subscriptions so that subscribers receive all the features Logos has accumulated over the last 30 years and going forward. Today, the Max subscription includes the features of FFS-Logos 10 + LFL (v.1). In two years, the Max subscription will include the features of FFS-Logos 10 + LFL (v.1) + LFL (v.2), and so on.
Imagine two years from now (2026), two users. Both have FFS-Logos10. But one did not subscribe and did not receive LFL-1 (2025-2026); the other subscribed for two years and received LFL-1 (2025-2026). Will both pay the same Max subscription price in 2027-2028?
Multiply these differences over the next 30 years of Logos. How will these differences in the features of different user accounts be differentiated and compensated for in subscription prices?
This seems like a huge complication to me! There are two possibilities: either subscriptions will become increasingly expensive for new and old users who didn’t receive successive LFLs, making subscriptions unviable over the years; or continuous subscribers will end up paying again for what they already received.
I am just a mere Logos user, and there are certainly smarter minds than mine working at Faithlife, but I, a mere mortal, can only conceive of two possibilities: The first is that the subscription will have a dynamic pricing component based on the features inherited from Logos 1 to Logos 10 and the successive LFLs. The second is that an occasional cumulative package of old (non-cloud) features will be sold so that those who wish to subscribe will have a common initial baseline for subscription levels. Like an entry fee!
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"... And do not be grieved, for the joy of the LORD is your strength." (Ne 8.10)
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I've not been paying attention but I thought the LFL was a one time deal.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Quick Question: Is there a deadline that L10 users need to sign up for the new subscriptions to lock in a LFL? Thanks!
Dr. Nathan Parker
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Nathan Parker said:
Quick Question: Is there a deadline that L10 users need to sign up for the new subscriptions to lock in a LFL? Thanks!
Not yet. We might impose one in the future, but we'll give plenty of notice if we do.
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