Logos 2025 Libraries
Comments
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EastTN said:
Thank you all who have confirmed that unsubscribing is easy and reliable - that's good to know. I still feel a bit ethically uncomfortable with "subscribing" just to access another deal, then immediately cancelling once I've taken advantage of it. But that may just be me.
There's no need to have a bad conscience about it. Mark Barnes even suggested that this approach be used if desired. It's not like you'll be getting the libraries for free; Logos will still profit from this approach. My expectation is that they want users to get their feet wet with the subscription and are using libraries as an incentive. Not everyone will keep the subscription, but some will. And that's the point.
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EastTN said:
Thank you all who have confirmed that unsubscribing is easy and reliable - that's good to know. I still feel a bit ethically uncomfortable with "subscribing" just to access another deal, then immediately cancelling once I've taken advantage of it. But that may just be me.
I get your ethical concern! If you were repeatedly signing up for a subscription with different emails, that could be dishonest, IMHO. But many, many people sign up for a subscription with no intention of staying on after the trial, only to end up liking the service, or just forgetting to unsubscribe! I've done both with subs from different companies.
Logos believes so strongly in their product, that they believe that many who plan to cancel after the trial will be convinced it's worth the cost. So check it out!0 -
I am going to ask a stupid question. Why are we repurchasing books we have already purchaed?
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Joseph Combs said:
I am going to ask a stupid question. Why are we repurchasing books we have already purchaed?
Are you referring to the books included directly with the various subscription tiers? If so, I agree that it would be great to have a "no library" option. If you are referring to something else, my immediate thought is that there is a misunderstanding somewhere. Dynamic pricing should ensure one does not pay for the same book twice.
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Joseph Combs said:
I am going to ask a stupid question. Why are we repurchasing books we have already purchaed?
Did you mean why are we subscribing to books we already own?
Know man knoweth that I know of.
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Joseph Combs said:
I am going to ask a stupid question. Why are we repurchasing books we have already purchased?
Here is a stupid answer. We are not repurchasing the books we have purchased; we are renting the books we have purchased. However, if we ever cancel our subscription, we own the books we are renting, I guess that's the upside.
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GaoLu said:Joseph Combs said:
I am going to ask a stupid question. Why are we repurchasing books we have already purchaed?
Did you mean why are we subscribing to books we already own?
Know man knoweth that I know of.
The reason is that Logos, the master of dynamic pricing, won't apply dynamic pricing to subscription based on books we already own. Logos keeps saying that it won't charge us again for the books we own, but by not offering dynamic pricing, it is effectively doing that.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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Joseph Combs said:
Why are we repurchasing books we have already purchaed?
Others seem to be answering a question you did not ask. As Aaron indicated, when you purchase a new "library," it takes into account the books you already own and LOWERS the price accordingly.
The other question being asked relates to the small amount of books included in the subscription. These books are largely to assist new users get started.
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JT (alabama24) said:
As Aaron indicated, when you purchase a new "library," it takes into account the books you already own and LOWERS the price accordingly.
Except for the Portuguese libraries... (but hopefully the dynamic pricing will get fixed soon)
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1Cor10 31 said:GaoLu said:Joseph Combs said:
I am going to ask a stupid question. Why are we repurchasing books we have already purchaed?
Did you mean why are we subscribing to books we already own?
Know man knoweth that I know of.
The reason is that Logos, the master of dynamic pricing, won't apply dynamic pricing to subscription based on books we already own. Logos keeps saying that it won't charge us again for the books we own, but by not offering dynamic pricing, it is effectively doing that.
With the subscription model, it appears you are paying solely for the software, regardless of whether you do or do not own the included books. In effect, the books are a lagniappe; you are neither being cheated nor double-charged.
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Bob Venem said:
you are neither being cheated nor double-charged
We are certainly being double charged, as Logos must inevitably pass on the expense to customers. This expense may indeed be relatively small, as many of the books are self-published or public domain. But to say there is no expense is not accurate.
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Any way they deserve. They have done a great Job.
Blessings in Christ.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
We are certainly being double charged, as Logos must inevitably pass on the expense to customers.
This has always been true for free books - under Now, Connect, books free in apps, monthly freebies... The question is whether the books are free perks of the subscription as Logos presents them or an integral part of the subscription for which you pay.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Aaron Hamilton said:Bob Venem said:
you are neither being cheated nor double-charged
We are certainly being double charged, as Logos must inevitably pass on the expense to customers. This expense may indeed be relatively small, as many of the books are self-published or public domain. But to say there is no expense is not accurate.
Bob Venem: you can be a fan of Logos and still acknowledge faults. I love Logos as much as anyone else here on this Forum and have recommended it to so many people, but that doesn't negate what they are doing - charging us again for resources we own.
Is the expense small? I don't know. Aaron: have you tried adding all the books in the Pro using an Incognito account to see how much it will cost? Or is this approach completely off base to evaluate the cost?
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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MJ. Smith said:
The question is whether the books are free perks of the subscription as Logos presents them or an integral part of the subscription for which you pay.
To be clear, I don't feel unsettled in the least by the reality that I own most of the books and yet pay the same amount as someone who does not. However, this is simply a matter of terminology. Every "free" perk must also be carefully considered and priced into the total cost of the subscription. In this sense, the only perks that are truly free are those that incur no expense.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
However, this is simply a matter of terminology.
I may be incorrect but I think the terminology has legal consequences.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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1Cor10 31 said:
Or is this approach completely off base to evaluate the cost?
It is off base because almost all of the books are published by Logos. If they publish the books and pay the author as work-for-hire or use books in the public domain, there is no incremental cost to them providing the book to more people, except the normal server costs. Books published by others incur royalties. But when Logos sells their own books, once they have recouped the initial cost, it is basically pure profit. When they include it in a subscription, they are using an asset they already have to entice you to subscribe and help the company's overall revenue. But the cost to buy it outright is only related to the cost to them in the most distant way.
Logos isn't doing dynamic pricing because books may be added or removed from the subscription, and people do not expect their subscriptions to change from month to month. Indeed, dynamic pricing for feature sets has always been based on the percentage of the features you own, so if they did traditional dynamic pricing, your cost would go up slightly every time a new feature rolled out. So instead they offer a substantial discount to existing base package owners who probably already own most of the books included as a kind of proxy for dynamic pricing which does not mean my subscription will change from month to month.Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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Phil Gons addressed this topic very early on. Logos (Faithlife) has to its advantage that they publish a large number of amazing books in Lexham Press. Also, public domain books do not require that Logos pay royalties. The question of how much money is forfeit by offering the books for "free" (opportunity cost) is another one that I'm not touching here. But calculating the sheer cost of the books would be overly simplistic, as a significant amount of that would be profit, not expense.1Cor10 31 said:Is the expense small? I don't know. Aaron: have you tried adding all the books in the Pro using an Incognito account to see how much it will cost? Or is this approach completely off base to evaluate the cost?
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This is a valid point, but it doesn't solve the problem. Consider the users who subscribe at full price, yet want to purchase & own certain resources as they go on sale. They will continue to pay to rent the resources, even though they own them. I am not personally advocating for dynamic pricing, as that would result in chaotic pricing. What would make sense to me, however, would be a "no library" option. No big deal to me personally, but I have the feeling this topic is going to continue coming up again and again. It would just be nice to point people to a proper solution.Justin Gatlin said:So instead they offer a substantial discount to existing base package owners
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EastTN said:
At any rate, I'm of an age where it reminds me of those old record club ads that you used to see in the back of magazines.
I am of that age, too. I remember stressing over having to buy a certain number of records after getting the 12 free for $.01.
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Mitch Snyder (Faithlife) said:Wild Eagle said:
Does anyone have a link for denominational package?
Denomination packages won't be available until the new year, we've gone live with our Standard Library as well as three new tracks: Leader, Preacher, and Researcher.
Forgive me if someone else already asked this. I tried to skim the thread.
Will Logos 10 Legacy libraries be made available for sale next year as well?
I must say I'm not as impressed with these new libraries. The Logos 10 libraries had many more quality resources, even in the lower-level packages. There are too many Southern Baptist/Holman resources included in these. Maybe that has something to do with the new CEO. I would have liked the see more balance in the standard packages.
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Kiyah said:Mitch Snyder (Faithlife) said:Wild Eagle said:
Does anyone have a link for denominational package?
Denomination packages won't be available until the new year, we've gone live with our Standard Library as well as three new tracks: Leader, Preacher, and Researcher.
Forgive me if someone else already asked this. I tried to skim the thread.
Will Logos 10 Legacy libraries be made available for sale next year as well?
I must say I'm not as impressed with these new libraries. The Logos 10 libraries had many more quality resources, even in the lower-level packages. There are too many Southern Baptist/Holman resources included in these. Maybe that has something to do with the new CEO. I would have liked the see more balance in the standard packages.
It hasn't been answered in this thread, but it was answered elsewhere that they do plan on releasing them eventually. I don't think it has to do with the CEO, but with buying the Wordsearch catalog from Lifeway. So they got a bunch of Southern Baptist/Holman resources and now they want to sell them.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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Aaron Hamilton said:
I am not personally advocating for dynamic pricing, as that would result in chaotic pricing. What would make sense to me, however, would be a "no library" option. No big deal to me personally, but I have the feeling this topic is going to continue coming up again and again. It would just be nice to point people to a proper solution.
I understand, and as a long time Faithlife Connect-No Library subscriber who owns 20k resources, I am sympathetic. But I think introducing a new set of subscription tiers that are a dollar less a month to make up for the fact that I already own Matthew Henry's commentary is going to add confusion and very little satisfaction.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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Justin Gatlin said:
I don't think it has to do with the CEO, but with buying the Wordsearch catalog from Lifeway. So they got a bunch of Southern Baptist/Holman resources and now they want to sell them.
Yes, the Wordsearch purchase is a factor as well. But they did that before Logos 10. I only mentioned the new CEO because he said that he attends J.D. Greear's church.
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If removing 600+ books from Max only drops the price from $20/mo to $19/mo then I agree. I'm sceptical that that would be the case, however. Only Logos knows what the price differential could be.Justin Gatlin said:I think introducing a new set of subscription tiers that are a dollar less a month to make up for the fact that I already own Matthew Henry's commentary is going to add confusion and very little satisfaction.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
If removing 600+ books from Max only drops the price from $20/mo to $19/mo then I agree. I'm sceptical that that would be the case, however. Only Logos knows what the price differential could be.Justin Gatlin said:I think introducing a new set of subscription tiers that are a dollar less a month to make up for the fact that I already own Matthew Henry's commentary is going to add confusion and very little satisfaction.
Is there a simple way to identify what books are included in Max level?
btw, I will respond to other comments later.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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1Cor10 31 said:Aaron Hamilton said:
If removing 600+ books from Max only drops the price from $20/mo to $19/mo then I agree. I'm sceptical that that would be the case, however. Only Logos knows what the price differential could be.Justin Gatlin said:I think introducing a new set of subscription tiers that are a dollar less a month to make up for the fact that I already own Matthew Henry's commentary is going to add confusion and very little satisfaction.
Is there a simple way to identify what books are included in Max level?
btw, I will respond to other comments later.
Also, Logos could tell me the dynamic price of the books that I don't own, and I'm happy to buy out the remaining books and pay a lower subscription price going forward.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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1Cor10 31 said:
Is there a simple way to identify what books are included in Max level?
https://www.logos.com/configure/subscriptions
Click "compare subscriptions".
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So if my first library order is several 2025 denominational libraries (thinking of the three I have in version10), once they are announced, will I still get the 30% discount, or will that discount expire before the 2025 denominational libraries are announced (or be terminated as I order individual resources but not libraries)?
Thanks!
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Joseph Combs said:
I am going to ask a stupid question. Why are we repurchasing books we have already purchaed?
That is not a stupid question. I brought up the issue a while back in other threads ... but nobody cared.
Now a few people seem to be waking up to the reality.
It is not moral, ethical or legal ... to rent out resources on a subscription that the subscriber has already purchased.
It is also a questionable practice to charge people years in advance (fallback license) for new features etc which have not been announced, let alone developed.
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John said:
It is also a questionable practice to charge people years in advance (fallback license) for new features etc which have not been announced, let alone developed.
This is why I don't think people should subscribe just to get the fallback license. You're not completely sure what it will include. Mark's prelim list didn't seem worth the money.
I think people should only subscribe if and when Logos releases features that they value and want to pay for. Otherwise people should just stick with Logos 10 instead of subscribing just to get the fallback license.
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Agreed, the question is certainly not stupid. But it is a bit unclear as to what is meant by it.John said:That is not a stupid question. I brought up the issue a while back in other threads ... but nobody cared.
Now a few people seem to be waking up to the reality.
Please do not assume that your experience is reflective of everyone else's. Just because you are now reading posts on the topic does not mean that others are suddenly "waking up to the reality." Many have brought up this issue. And Logos has ignored it because, admittedly, it hasn't been the biggest problem on the list. I feel somewhat confident that it will eventually have its turn. But I'm unsure as to when exactly that might be.
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My uncle was a business man (since deceased) that wrote rules for business based on his failures. He had ten rules.
One of which was to launch on time even if the product isn't fully realized as envisioned. That seems like what's going on here.
Lots of good. BUT the whole paying a second time to rent the books we already own a license for is ill-conceived.
I feel the more disconnected from this launch than I have ever before. Maybe in part because I was excited by the new software I'd helped with. Maybe in part because I felt connected to the team. Maybe I'm just in a weird place because of Helene and Milton.
By this point in years past I've purchased a package, and generally a large one. This time I've not been parted with any of my money.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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As I understand it, a Logos user never *repurchases" resources the user has already purchased, at least to the extent the price of a library or other bundle of resources is reduced by "dynamic pricing" to take into account the resources already owned.
As to books I already own that are included as temporarily licensed with my level of subscription - in my case, Premium - I already own nearly every resource licensed with the Premium subscription, and most or all of the ones I don't own are resources I'm not interested in - so, going in, and I did review the list of licensed resources before I subscribed, I saw that if I paid $69.99 plus tax for a Premium subscription, I would be getting the software features that come with the subscription, but nothing, or at least no value, from the resources licensed with the subscription. For Logos to offer a fixed-price subscription that includes licensing of a fixed set of books I already own (or, as to the few, don't care to license), isn't immoral, unethical or illegal - it's a choice, and I had a choice whether to subscribe. Obviously, I chose to subscribe for the features offered and to be offered.
I could see calling Logos's approach frustrating, or suboptimal, but not immoral, unethical or illegal.
Same with the fallback license. It's a blanket protection. We can each, as we wish, drop our subscription if new features, and the already-rolled-out AI features, don't seem worth the cost of the subscription. But I like the fallback license as a protection I only wish I had with Adobe, where I do own a perpetual license in various old versions of Photoshop, and Acrobat, and now pay per month nearly what Logos Premium costs per year for Creative Cloud, with no fallback license at all for the products I own - for which I paid full value for perpetual licenses.
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I have so many conflicting thoughts: On the one hand, the "free books" that come with the subscription seem similar to the "free book of the month." You're paying a reasonable cost for updated software and lecture series. They throw in some books as an additional benefit - but it's considered an "extra". If I already have the books in my library - which is somewhat true for me! - then it's like those disappointing months where free BOTM is one you already own. They're under no obligation to give you an additional book, just because you already have it.
On the other hand, they have always pushed the dynamic pricing model - never pay for a book you already own!Thus, it seems that either the books should be considered "freebies", and not charged for, even indirectly, or we should be offered a discount.
But wait, there's more: Those of us with Logos packages prior to October 21st HAVE been given a discount. It was seemingly tied to the FFS, but you couldn't get a FFS without at least some books purchased. So maybe their "dynamic pricing" was built into the discount we received. Maybe?
I added up the non-Lexham, non-public domain Bibles and commentaries offered in Max. They come to about $775, as per the pricing in Logos. If you add in the many additional resources, I'm sure we're well north of $1000. Over two years, that cost alone would $40/month. I'm guessing it's not nearly that cost to them, especially since many of the titles may have the copyright owned by Logos/Faithlife by now (like the Holman titles, for example).I'm paying $10/month with a one-year discounted subscription, so while I get why many would feel it could be reduced further based on ownership, I don't personally feel I'm being cheated. That's a really reasonable price for just the software features and eight courses a quarter!
To double down on the cringe: I'm reminded of Matthew 20, and the parable of the workers in the vineyard. Bottom line: How does the fact that new subscribers get some juicy new-to-them books impact the ones who started with Logos years ago? Those of us who are "legacy users" and chose to subscribe, "agreed with the landlord" to pay the cost.
And I'll be honest: If, after I lock in my fallback license in 24 months, I choose to drop the subscription, I'm definitely going to miss some of the "free" titles.0 -
Dru Lattin said:
... the "free books" that come with the subscription ...
They were not free to those who have already purchased them.
Dru Lattin said:... then it's like those disappointing months where free BOTM is one you already own. They're under no obligation to give you an additional book, just because you already have it.
Its different because you are not paying for access to the free book of the month.
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While my thoughts lean in the direction of feeling sorry for new users who have not received a discount and have to work through the dilemma of wanting to purchase/permanently own a highly desirable resource during a great sale, knowing that if they do that they will nonetheless have to continue paying rent at full price.Dru Lattin said:How does the fact that new subscribers get some juicy new-to-them books impact the ones who started with Logos years ago? Those of us who are "legacy users" and chose to subscribe, "agreed with the landlord" to pay the cost.
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It would be nice if there were a number of options available for the free book and you could select a different one each month. This let you choose a book you didn't own.
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I haven't subscribed yet, but I'm considering it. I don’t use the online features even now, but the extra book each month and 5% additional discount would come close to covering my subscription fee.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
my thoughts lean in the direction of feeling sorry for new users who have not received a discount and have to work through the dilemma of wanting to purchase/permanently own a highly desirable resource during a great sale, knowing that if they do that they will nonetheless have to continue paying rent at full price.
I was so thankful to be able to help a newly-ordained relative select the Preaching Suite Essentials on sale just last week - this ensured he was locked in with the sermon editor and some other core features. Now he won't be locked into subscribing, and he got a great deal with the sale.
Kinda sad for folks preaching in the future that won't be able to access preaching features without paying $15/month.0 -
I hope my post adequately reflected my ambivalence about the issue. There are multiple ways of looking at this, and I'm a bit torn.
Still, I think you might not quite get my point here? In a nutshell, I think it's reasonable to say that legacy subscribers are NOT paying for the books - they're an extra freebie to help out those who haven't built out a library. If that feels unfair, I'd remind you that we're getting a fairly massive discount on the subscription, as well as access to the LFL.
In short, the subscription is a good deal as it is. Other people getting books without having to pay more is no skin off my nose.John said:Dru Lattin said:... the "free books" that come with the subscription ...
They were not free to those who have already purchased them.
Dru Lattin said:... then it's like those disappointing months where free BOTM is one you already own. They're under no obligation to give you an additional book, just because you already have it.
Its different because you are not paying for access to the free book of the month.
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Dru Lattin said:
... I think it's reasonable to say that legacy subscribers are NOT paying for the books ...
If they subscribe, then YES, they are paying to lease the books as a portion of the subscription price. And that is not the problem. The problem is that many have already purchased some or all of those books.
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John said:Dru Lattin said:
... I think it's reasonable to say that legacy subscribers are NOT paying for the books ...
If they subscribe, then YES, they are paying to lease the books as a portion of the subscription price. And that is not the problem. The problem is that many have already purchased some or all of those books.
What you say is true. It is also true, however, that a significant discount has been included for these subscribers. What is unclear is how much of that discount is due to owned features and how much is due to owned books. Only Logos could tell us how much we would actually save if the books were to be taken out of the subscription. And I hope that they will one day be willing to provide an answer to that question. I wouldn't expect the saving to be all that much, however, for those already receiving the maximum subscription discount. Obviously it would be a bit more for those paying full price.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
What you say is true. It is also true, however, that a significant discount has been included for these subscribers. What is unclear is how much of that discount is due to owned features and how much is due to owned books. Only Logos could tell us how much we would actually save if the books were to be taken out of the subscription. And I hope that they will one day be willing to provide an answer to that question. I wouldn't expect the saving to be all that much, however, for those already receiving the maximum subscription discount.
I think they have made it clear that the value of the books is negligible and that it is included in the discount existing owners already get: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/223375/1301522.aspx#1301522 The only people who get a raw deal are the handful of people who own a substantial number of resources but never bought a base package, but they also had months of warning that this was coming where they could have purchased one if they wanted to, with dynamic pricing to account for the books they already had.
Alan Palmer (Logos) said:We are thinking about subscription tiers as access to the software features and platform (very similar to "feature sets" of the past).
Meanwhile, the plan is for libraries to remain purchased and licensed the same as today (transactional, permanent licensees).
Because features are powered by some books/datasets, there may be a small number included in the subscription merely to power the features. There is no dynamic pricing on those, however they are not significant contributors to the subscription price so it's a bit moot.
We can believe them or not, but I don't think that what they have said is ambiguous.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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"Mostly focused on features" and "offering a substantial discount" does not clearly communicate to me that the value of the books is entirely included in the discount that existing owners get. But maybe my interpretation is off.Justin Gatlin said:think they have made it clear that the value of the books is negligible and that it is included in the discount existing owners already get
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If you keep reading the thread, Mark elaborated on the logic. I tried to quote that too but for some reason I got stuck in the spam filter whenever I tried. But I think even in what I quoted, it is clear. The cost of the resources is an insubstantial part of the subscription and so the lack of dynamic pricing is moot. That's why I think that any "no library" version would be priced so close to what we already have that it would just make the offerings more confusing without meaningful benefit.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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John Fidel said:
We should get a 30% discount on our first order. Not sure that is calculating or if there is code we need to enter. You can include several packages in your first order, so take your time to get the 30% applied to all packages you purchase in your first order.
Did you ever find out if the price on the store is with or without the 30% off first order?
Dr. Nathan Parker
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Justin Gatlin said:
If you keep reading the thread, Mark elaborated on the logic. I tried to quote that too but for some reason I got stuck in the spam filter whenever I tried. But I think even in what I quoted, it is clear. The cost of the resources is an insubstantial part of the subscription and so the lack of dynamic pricing is moot. That's why I think that any "no library" version would be priced so close to what we already have that it would just make the offerings more confusing without meaningful benefit.
Sorry, but I haven't read anything that would cause me to share that opinion entirely. It wouldn't surprise me if the books accounted for, say, around 20% of the subscription price. If someone from the Logos team were to pop on this thread and tell me otherwise I would believe them. But that has not yet happened.
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Nathan Parker said:
Did you ever find out if the price on the store is with or without the 30% off first order?
It is included already. You should see the banner on the product page that says, "First 2025 Library purchase discount applied"
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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