Logos 2025 Libraries
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I have a handful of chief caveats that make me averse to the idea.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like subscribers end up paying for access to books on an ongoing basis, whether they've already purchased them or not.
I wonder how the field testing of this actually went. I mean, did people actually engage with and approve of this model during the experimentation process?
I feel like the the de-demominalization, if you will, of the package offerings has led to excessive generalization of use cases, which has in turn given rise to the subscription and library tiers, as they are so called. The best was done for us when we were better supported to engage and choose for ourselves.
Are there assurances that users can control and measure the extent of involvement of artificial intelligence in their research process? This is ultimately supposed to be about humans engaging and mobilizing the material. It loses something in the course of the prospect of a computer procuring all of the data and handing finished research products to us.
The discount isn't much in light of all that.
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Brittany Correa said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like subscribers end up paying for access to books on an ongoing basis, whether they've already purchased them or not.
The idea is that the discount for existing owners covers that, because almost all of these books were in previous base packages, so that you are not really double-paying.
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I wonder how the field testing of this actually went. I mean, did people actually engage with and approve of this model during the experimentation process?
There were dozens of pages of debate about it for 5 months.
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I feel like the the de-demominalization, if you will, of the package offerings has led to excessive generalization of use cases, which has in turn given rise to the subscription and library tiers, as they are so called. The best was done for us when we were better supported to engage and choose for ourselves.
Denominational libraries are coming out in a couple of months. Feature sets have always been the same across denominational lines (starter, bronze, silver, gold), so the movement to subscription does not substantially affect that.
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Are there assurances that users can control and measure the extent of involvement of artificial intelligence in their research process? This is ultimately supposed to be about humans engaging and mobilizing the material. It loses something in the course of the prospect of a computer procuring all of the data and handing finished research products to us.
Yes, everything that uses AI is marked so you can use it or not as you see fit. The main AI tools are things like search and summarization, which explicitly point you to the resources they come from. It is just a way to see which resources are worth your time, and which ones you can skim over.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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Where was the warning? The forum's kind of tucked away, and not everybody was in the habit of traversing it before this happened. Was it an emails? Maybe it was just subtle. Certainly, the gravity of the matter was not laid out point blank in a cross all this time. The casual website observer and occasional content purchaser would not have been able to plainly see it coming. It seems like it was only the most attentive of insiders who knew. I had to cull together a plan with a month's notice just so I wouldn't miss out on most of what I would have otherwise, and now the logic of the subscriptions doesn't add up.
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That was tons of secluded stuff, and I don't see sense in the wait when it's stuff that could be here and put to use now.
The price of the subscriptions, when weighed against the value of the books and packages, and factored alongside the investment of time and energy which would be necessary for the subscriptions to pay for themselves from month to month is such that one really would be double-paying before long.
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Nathan Parker said:John Fidel said:
We should get a 30% discount on our first order. Not sure that is calculating or if there is code we need to enter. You can include several packages in your first order, so take your time to get the 30% applied to all packages you purchase in your first order.
Did you ever find out if the price on the store is with or without the 30% off first order?
Once put in the cart the price will adjust and show the discount!
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Much confusion seems to have come about over the current "new era change"; and its roots appear to me to have to do with the "mix match handling" of trying to separate the two components that make up a "Logos/Faithlife package": (1) software [engine with tools and features], and (2) library [with books, resources, other materials] which in the past were mostly combined in what users could acquire by purchasing base packages of various volumes/levels (starter, bronze, silver, gold, etc.). The "new era" main idea was to separate out the tools/features from (1) and offer those by subscription only, while keeping the software engine from (1) and library (2) as previously marketed for purchase. Unfortunately, for example, library items such as books were mingled mixed into subscription tiers, etc... and library purchases made dependent on subscription etc.
What about the following solution idea:
(A) Keep the free/no cost combined package of software plus very basic set of a library (advertising version)
(B) The (1) component mentioned above of software engine with tools and features available to anyone in subscription tiers, including a possible dynamic pricing in harmony with tools and features already owned.
(C) The (2) component mentioned above of library in various volumes and levels available to anyone for purchase, including a possible dynamic pricing in harmony with books, resources, other materials already owned.
The user/customer is free to chose ... If I need or want certain features/tools, I can select and subscribe the appropriate subscription tier, that is, I adjust my tools/features to what my library or workflow may require. If I need or want certain books, etc. from a library package but do not need or want any features/tools I can purchase just that library package or book as is. The user decides which subscription tier and which library to get in order to meet and facilitate what one would like to have.
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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Justin Gatlin said:
I think they have made it clear that the value of the books is negligible
All 600+ books including 250 commentaries, 18 dictionaries, 69 journals, etc. Many are outdated, true, but how sure are you that the value is "negligible?"
I already own almost everything (that I want), so the value is negligible to me.0 -
GaoLu said:Justin Gatlin said:
I think they have made it clear that the value of the books is negligible
All 600+ books including 250 commentaries, 18 dictionaries, 69 journals, etc. Many are outdated, true, but how sure are you that the value is "negligible?"
I already own almost everything (that I want), so the value is negligible to me.We don't think the value to everyone is negligible, although the value to someone who has already bought 35,000 books might be negligible.
The main purpose of the books included in the subscription is threefold:
- To ensure that all users have the essential books needed to power the included features.
- To ensure that people trying out Logos can get a sense of how it works without also needing to purchase a library (there's little point offering free trial or one-month commitment if we also require you to spend $350 on a library before you can see how Logos functions).
- To ensure that people who are still in the process of building their library can still make good use of the software.
In all cases, we think that Logos works much better with a library (or libraries), but it wouldn't work at all without any included books. Subscriptions without any included books were never an option.
The books included in the subscription were carefully chosen to meet those purposes above, but we have sought to keep the costs (to us) as low as possible, so we don't need to pass high costs on to you.
But it's correct to say that the costs to us are not zero, and that ultimately all of our costs are passed onto our customers in some way.
We, therefore, had a choice when we put these subscriptions together:
- We could offer no discounts to existing owners.
- We could dynamically price the books.
- We could offer different discount levels based on prior ownership.
We took the third option. That is, the price you pay will depend on your existing ownership, but that price isn't completely unique to you. Similar people (e.g. owners of L10 Gold, owners of previous base packages, etc.) will pay similar prices.
If we had chosen to dynamically price the books that would have meant the following:
- Some people would pay a few cents less each month (and it would only be a few cents).
- Some people would pay a few cents more each month
- Every month, there would be the potential for the price to change, based on ownership.
It's that third point that led us to discount levels, rather than dynamic pricing. Do our users really want to us to go to the expense and trouble of building a complex system that is constantly adjusting the price of your subscription based on which books you purchase (or which books we add to the package that month)? We thought that the majority of users would not want us to pass the costs of building such a system onto them, and that a simpler approach – where people got discount levels, not unique discounts – was better.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:GaoLu said:Justin Gatlin said:
I think they have made it clear that the value of the books is negligible
All 600+ books including 250 commentaries, 18 dictionaries, 69 journals, etc. Many are outdated, true, but how sure are you that the value is "negligible?"
I already own almost everything (that I want), so the value is negligible to me.We don't think the value to everyone is negligible, although the value to someone who has already bought 35,000 books might be negligible.
The main purpose of the books included in the subscription is threefold:
- To ensure that all users have the essential books needed to power the included features.
- To ensure that people trying out Logos can get a sense of how it works without also needing to purchase a library (there's little point offering free trial or one-month commitment if we also require you to spend $350 on a library before you can see how Logos functions).
- To ensure that people who are still in the process of building their library can still make good use of the software.
In all cases, we think that Logos works much better with a library (or libraries), but it wouldn't work at all without any included books. Subscriptions without any included books were never an option.
The books included in the subscription were carefully chosen to meet those purposes above, but we have sought to keep the costs (to us) as low as possible, so we don't need to pass high costs on to you.
But it's correct to say that the costs to us are not zero, and that ultimately all of our costs are passed onto our customers in some way.
We, therefore, had a choice when we put these subscriptions together:
- We could offer no discounts to existing owners.
- We could dynamically price the books.
- We could offer different discount levels based on prior ownership.
We took the third option. That is, the price you pay will depend on your existing ownership, but that price isn't completely unique to you. Similar people (e.g. owners of L10 Gold, owners of previous base packages, etc.) will pay similar prices.
If we had chosen to dynamically price the books that would have meant the following:
- Some people would pay a few cents less each month (and it would only be a few cents).
- Some people would pay a few cents more each month
- Every month, there would be the potential for the price to change, based on ownership.
It's that third point that led us to discount levels, rather than dynamic pricing. Do our users really want to us to go to the expense and trouble of building a complex system that is constantly adjusting the price of your subscription based on which books you purchase (or which books we add to the package that month)? We thought that the majority of users would not want us to pass the costs of building such a system onto them, and that a simpler approach – where people got discount levels, not unique discounts – was better.
So you guys put forth a to set list? You were already giving us a library that would able to do something with the research tools at our disposal up front. To somebody who has already invested several years' worth of the subscription price in perpetual licenses to materials they chose for themselves for what they had in mind, the value of the subscription would in fact seem negligible, regardless of the volume of the offering. And, as I say, there's always the factor of the investment of time. The only way to maximize the value of a subscription of any time across the time allotted is to ensure one makes the most of the offerings across that span of time, and this is an awful lot to make the most of this stuff in the span of a month while also engaging other elements of life. As such, I have surmised that I and whomever else truly intends to make the most of this had better go into each month of doing so with a solid and well-thought out game plan. With all that being said, I feel like prorating makes more sense.
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Mark,
Thank you very much for addressing this issue. I understand the logic. If a no library option were to be included, it would only be advisable for those who set out to purchase a large library for themselves. I certainly see the point about those with small libraries being disadvantaged by a no library subscription option.
This is to me the most interesting comment you made:
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Some people would pay a few cents less each month (and it would only be a few cents).
Am I to understand that the expense to Logos from the 600+ books included in Max amounts to only a few cents each month? If so, I am amazed (in the most positive way possible). I would really appreciate clarity on this point, because it would provide a clear answer to anyone concerned about being forced to double pay.
The answer would be that even if you owned all of the books included in the subscription, a no-library subscription option (or dynamic pricing) would save you less than $1/month.
Is this answer correct?
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Mitch Snyder (Faithlife) said:Doc B said:Mitch Snyder (Faithlife) said:
Denomination packages won't be available until the new year,
If we wait until then, will we still get the 30% discount offered today????
Correct!
Only fair. I'll wait too.
mm.
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We will be offering 30% on those libraries even if you take advantage of the 30% off the libraries that just released. So you can get the best of both worlds at the same great discount (for your first purchase of each release). We are also going to be honoring this discount for the Verbum libraries for anyone who is interested.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
Do our users really want to us to go to the expense and trouble of building a complex system that is constantly adjusting the price of your subscription based on which books you purchase (or which books we add to the package that month)?
Perhaps you mean instead that you anticipate that the large expense of managing dynamically-priced subscriptions would roughly nullify the money saved by not renting owned books. If this is the case, I return to the question of a no-library solution. Dynamically-priced subscriptions may not be a sensible solution, but offering a discounted subscription at a set price that does not include any books would be a much more manageable system. There are solutions to the small library problem. Perhaps you could set a threshold that would only allow users to switch to the no-library option after their personal library has passed a certain number of books. Perhaps you would require the purchase of a specific, dynamically-priced library in order to switch to a no-library subscription.
At any rate, I'm not yet convinced that the issue of double paying for resources has been settled.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
There are solutions to the small library problem
Its a day late and a dollar short now. I think they were in too much of a rush to get subscription income flowing in.
The best way to have done it would be to keep program, resources, and AI features all separate. But its too late for that now.
When a new (or existing) user began a subscription, if their library was not sufficient, they should have been given the offer to purchase one. It could have even been the exact resources they ended up including. It would not have been outside of Logos previous dealings to offer a monthly payment plan on the Resources ... or if they were not interested in purchasing a minimal library, then they could add it to their subscription for a higher price.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
At any rate, I'm not yet convinced that the issue of double paying for resources has been settled.
It has been as far as Logos is concerned. Mark Barnes has given a very detailed explanation as to the reasoning behind the decisions. And all of them are perfectly valid. But nothing he said addressed the legal question. If they had a corporate Lawyer involved in the discussion, they would certainly have been warned against the legal risk of double-billing.
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John said:
If they had a corporate Lawyer involved in the discussion, they would certainly have been warned against the legal risk of double-billing.
The situation is no different than before when Now and Connect and the mobile apps had resources associated with them. Because of the degree to which their ability to include books require permissions in the contract with the copyright holders, it is inconceivable that no lawyers have reviewed the matter. Given the general behavior of the forums, I am sure that review by 10,000 lawyers would not settle the issue.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Aaron Hamilton said:
Perhaps you mean instead that you anticipate that the large expense of managing dynamically-priced subscriptions would roughly nullify the money saved by not renting owned books. If this is the case, I return to the question of a no-library solution. Dynamically-priced subscriptions may not be a sensible solution, but offering a discounted subscription at a set price that does not include any books would be a much more manageable system.
...
At any rate, I'm not yet convinced that the issue of double paying for resources has been settled.I agree, and I think that it would be better to have a subscription (for the features) at a set price that does not include any books.
In parallel to that, it would be great to be able to rent any library or even individual resources: put any resources/libraries into cart, and in addition to a permanent purchase, there could be an option to rent this set of resources.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
We don't think the value to everyone is negligible, although the value to someone who has already bought 35,000 books might be negligible.
The main purpose of the books included in the subscription is threefold:
- To ensure that all users have the essential books needed to power the included features.
- To ensure that people trying out Logos can get a sense of how it works without also needing to purchase a library (there's little point offering free trial or one-month commitment if we also require you to spend $350 on a library before you can see how Logos functions).
- To ensure that people who are still in the process of building their library can still make good use of the software.
In all cases, we think that Logos works much better with a library (or libraries), but it wouldn't work at all without any included books. Subscriptions without any included books were never an option.
The books included in the subscription were carefully chosen to meet those purposes above, but we have sought to keep the costs (to us) as low as possible, so we don't need to pass high costs on to you.
Just to clarify here - as someone who would also be more interested in a no library option (with an option for the Classic Toolbar [;)] )
You state that there are books needed to power the included features.... Does this mean if a user pays for the LFL and cancels the subscription afterward, that said features will no longer function properly? I thought it was stated that the books included in the subscription were not eligible for LFL licensing - correct me if I am wrong, but if that is the case - how would a user not be forced into continual subscription if the books needed to power the LFL features are not included?
Will there be a discounted purchase option for said books? Or will those books be included in the LFL so the Features that a users paid for will still work?
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
The main purpose of the books included in the subscription is threefold:
1. To ensure that all users have the essential books needed to power the included features.
Isn't it the responsibility of the user to decide which tools/features and also which libraries/books to get? I would think that Logos only should ensure to properly advise, describe and explain what particular tools/features do and for which type of books certain features are essential and needed.
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:2. To ensure that people trying out Logos can get a sense of how it works without also needing to purchase a library (there's little point offering free trial or one-month commitment if we also require you to spend $350 on a library before you can see how Logos functions).
This problem is solved by offering the "30 day trial subscription" consisting - for example - of what is now offered with features and books being combined in a package. After the 30 day free trial, that trial license expires, and the user then decides on the subscription tier to which to subscribe and decides on which library to purchase.
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:3. To ensure that people who are still in the process of building their library can still make good use of the software.
Again, isn't it the user's privilege and responsibility to ensure how to build their library and make use of the software (i.e. which subscription, if needed; which library to get)?
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:In all cases, we think that Logos works much better with a library (or libraries), but it wouldn't work at all without any included books. Subscriptions without any included books were never an option.
And there is the self-inflicted wound ... Of course, the software works much better with features/tools matching with resources in libraries. Still, it is the users' responsibility what and how they want to use what is made available ... whether that be e.g. subscription tier Max and library starter, or subscription tier premium Plus plus library Diamond (to mention some odd not well matched combinations).
There need not be nor should there be some mixing muddling including of subscription features and purchase libraries.
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:We, therefore, had a choice when we put these subscriptions together:
- We could offer no discounts to existing owners.
- We could dynamically price the books.
- We could offer different discount levels based on prior ownership.
We took the third option. That is, the price you pay will depend on your existing ownership, but that price isn't completely unique to you. Similar people (e.g. owners of L10 Gold, owners of previous base packages, etc.) will pay similar prices.
...
All the difficulties with pricing, etc. would have pretty much been avoided ... and users would have plain courses of action to pursue, and Logos would have clean paths for dynamic pricing if so desired by the feature/tools side kept clear of and separate from library books side.
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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Frank Sauer said:
Just to clarify here - as someone who would also be more interested in a no library option (with an option for the Classic Toolbar
)You state that there are books needed to power the included features.... Does this mean if a user pays for the LFL and cancels the subscription afterward, that said features will no longer function properly? I thought it was stated that the books included in the subscription were not eligible for LFL licensing - correct me if I am wrong, but if that is the case - how would a user not be forced into continual subscription if the books needed to power the LFL features are not included?
Will there be a discounted purchase option for said books? Or will those books be included in the LFL so the Features that a users paid for will still work?
I think it's pretty clear that the no library wouldn't be a great solution: Folks are always looking for the best value (as this forum shows only too well!), and if they offered a no-library option, people would flock to it, since it's "the cheapest." Then, exploring their shiny new Logos program, they'd be incredibly frustrated because there's almost nothing they can do: If they're lucky, they might get Lexham Bible and Study Bible? Although I can imagine folks complaining, "Hey they got a free book I already own! Not fair, not fair!" People buying the no-book option would find the program wanting, and abandon it for e-Sword or The Word.
No problem, a person might say: Just make the no-library solution available only to those with a package! And in my opinion, that's what they've already done: Given a major discount to those of us who already bought a package.
It's not perfect, there are still questions. But I feel we get plenty of value from the subscription without the "free books", considering the discount.
To your penultimate paragraph: I am pretty sure Mark and others are suggesting that some books are needed to run the program effectively, not necessarily THOSE specific books.0 -
Dru Lattin said:
No problem, a person might say: Just make the no-library solution available only to those with a package! And in my opinion, that's what they've already done: Given a major discount to those of us who already bought a package.
Ok, I agree. The discount was meant to address the library problem. And I can accept the statement that it did this sufficiently. However, this does not solve the problem. New users will still have to deal with this problem. They will not get a discount, and yet they will still have to pay for every rented book that they purchase. New users will continue to purchase legacy libraries and subscription libraries. A year from now there will be new users paying full subscription price who own most of the books they are renting. What is the solution for these users?
I agree that there should be a system in place to protect users from the ill-advised purchase of a no-library subscription. I have already suggested two solutions to this problem, and I'm sure a bit of brainstorming could identify other solutions as well.
A no-library subscription is a common-sense solution to the problem of users being forced to rent books that they own.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
A no-library subscription is a common-sense solution to the problem of users being forced to rent books that they own.
The problem I see with this is Logos went this route in the past. Those of us from the Logos Now/Connect No Library option. It causes more issues and maintenance on Logos' side I would presume as they now have to maintain more subscription options. You then also run the risk of a new user taking the cheaper option and then not understanding why they are getting poor results in the tools they are using. I may own some movies in Netflix but it doesn't give me a discount on those monthly. Same scenario here albeit a different medium. I also remember seeing somewhere that the books being rented were negligible in price. If this is true, maybe it would shave $.50/month of your subscription?
I am not a fan of subscriptions which is why I always bought the FFS even though I had connect. My biggest concern is not knowing exactly what I owned from the past and what I don't own now. When I went to the subscriptions page, there are blocks of what's new to you. It had the memorization tool as new but I remember having that in the past. It would be nice to have a full list from Logos (or somewhere we can go) to see what we own exactly. Datasets don't show in the library so I have no idea what ones I own now but won't in the future. I noticed a lot of them got moved to Max where I stayed at Pro.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
A no-library subscription is a common-sense solution to the problem of users being forced to rent books that they own.
I'd love to keep defending Logos....but argh, I can't quite reach that far! I'll concede your point. While I see both sides, I do get what you're saying. When I look at what they charge ala carte for the titles in the Max sub (well north of $1000), it does feel like a step back from the dynamic pricing principle.
Sincere question: How much would you feel that the price difference should be betwixt no-library subs and the standard sub? Not trying to be a suck-up here, but my cost for an annual pro sub is $99 - that feels eminently reasonable just for the engine with the new features, the Logos courses, and the AI credits. Do you feel $50/year for a FFS+AI to be reasonable?
I'm so curious about the economics of their business. Obviously, they're paying pennies on the dollar for the copyrights to the libraries, but it does have to cost something. They give away access to CSB and ESV in the Free Version; do they pay a per-download fee for that?As my high school students would probably say: nunya.
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Dru Lattin said:
Sincere question: How much would you feel that the price difference should be betwixt no-library subs and the standard sub? Not trying to be a suck-up here, but my cost for an annual pro sub is $99 - that feels eminently reasonable just for the engine with the new features, the Logos courses, and the AI credits. Do you feel $50/year for a FFS+AI to be reasonable?
I threw out 20% as a guess earlier in this thread referring to how much of the subscription price is attributed to the library rentals. Where did I get this number? Well, the truth is I totally made it up. Honestly, I was hoping Mark Barnes would provide an answer to this question. This is why I asked very specifically if the cost of subscription would drop less than a dollar. I asked this because he mentioned prices dropping by only a few cents. However, as of yet we have not been given further clarification, causing me to speculate that the difference may indeed be closer to a 20% drop in the non-discounted subscription price if you do not have the added expense of managing dynamic pricing.
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Mattillo said:
Datasets don't show in the library so I have no idea what ones I own now but won't in the future.
1st you already know this but as someone else around here has said "Words Matter".
If you OWN it now, you own it in the future.
As far as seeing what datasets you may now have temporary access to, you can try this.
I'm not sure if this will show them all but you can try the library and search for "dataset documentation".
Then filter for temporary licenses. My guess is that you are not going to have the documentation without having the dataset.
This IS only a guess on my part. I show 4 dataset documentation resources (with a temporary license) added to my library (with me having the Max subscription).
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Mattillo said:
Datasets don't show in the library so I have no idea what ones I own now but won't in the future.
I "may" have found a better library search to try and answer your question. You will still be looking for the documentation to the datasets but when you do the search try type:manual.
I think this will find more of them. When I searched this way I found 11 temporary resources.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
I asked this because he mentioned prices dropping by only a few cents. However, as of yet we have not been given further clarification, causing me to speculate that the difference may indeed be closer to a 20% drop
I can't speak for him and I have no insider information. Remember, however, that we are talking about RENTALS, not purchases.
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Roy said:Mattillo said:
Datasets don't show in the library so I have no idea what ones I own now but won't in the future.
I "may" have found a better library search to try and answer your question. You will still be looking for the documentation to the datasets but when you do the search try type:manual.
I think this will find more of them. When I searched this way I found 11 temporary resources.
It is a difficult Q to answer when the Logos 10 Feature sets are no longer available on logos.com. https://www.logos.com/configure/subscriptions?trackId=191 does not help when it says I own some of the few Datasets listed under "Included Books".
So manuals and whether they are temporary would help, but I'm sure I own one dataset where the manual is temporary. The right-click context menu will give you a good idea of what you have when used on bible translations with Interlinears.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Charlene said:
Is there a comparison chart made between the 4 libraries (Leader, Preacher, Researcher, Standard), so that you can see at a glance, what the differences are?
And is there a comparison chart made between the different levels, such as gold, diamond, platinum, etc.? I know there is one on the subscription page, but you have to slowly move down to see the different books. Surely there is something better than that!
We just shipped a new page to help you compare across the libraries here: https://www.logos.com/compare/libraries
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Thank you very much
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Thanks, Celeste!
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Hi, You can access https://www.logos.com/bonus-courses.
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