Logos Upgrade - No Subscription or online

Hi Everyone (Including Logos),

My logos 9 is misbehaving, so I decided to come here and upgrade. I do not want a subscription and I normally live in a place with bad to no internet.

What are my options? I feel like Logos has always made this as confusing as possible.

If there are no options. I just want to blast Logos for being anti-consumer. The subscription motivation for most things is based on a repeatable money source, not serving the customer. Sure there are a couple of features that need constant refreshing so a server can be involved or are too big to exist on a computers, but you could easily separate those out to a premium subscription package... which is what I thought Logos Now was... of course the rules change and marketing is unclear, so what do I know.

Logos! Don't be anti-consumer, don't forget who you serve. Don't be like other companies who get too big for the people they serve.

Wayne

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NB.Mick

Hi Everyone (Including Logos),

My logos 9 is misbehaving, so I decided to come here and upgrade. I do not want a subscription and I normally live in a place with bad to no internet.

What are my options?

simply update to the latest version (Logos 37.1) - it's free! - and look whether this fixes your issues. If you want to buy and own some of the Logos 10 features, there's less than a week time to get those (search for Verbum 10 in the store), but that's fully optional.

JT (alabama24)

The subscription motivation for most things is based on a repeatable money source, not serving the customer.

Staying in business is the best way to "serve the customer."

I feel like Logos has always made this as confusing as possible.

It has been confusing, but thankfully they have made it less so. You are using "Logos 9," but the software has always been free (and still is). In the past, you would purchase features. Now, you subscribe. The features you have already purchased, however, are still free to use.

As Mick mentioned, you should download the newest version of the engine.

If you have any troubles with that, please let us know!

GaoLu

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1324989#Comment_1324989

Update to the latest and greatest free Logos software. Upgrade per Mick if you want (I advise you to). Start a free trial subscription to see if you can live with or without it. Breathe easy. Wait a year, and the whole thing won't seem complicated at all. Hopefully.

I was an adamant anti-subscriber. Still am. Almost rabid. I made my case, stood my ground, defended my cause, and lost. Well, maybe not lost. I went ahead and subscribed for two long, full years. Apologies to my current dear anti-subscriber friends. I was one of you and still am, but alas, I subscribed! The roof didn't cave in, though I heard great cracking noises. The bank account is still intact. And you know what? I am glad I subscribed. I like it.

Aaron Hamilton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1325054#Comment_1325054

I'll say it again: the 5% off total cost of products is amazing! I was able to purchase a course for 97% off! Because the course was roughly $200 (very rough estimate, as I'm not taking the time to check), the added 5% off would have slashed about $10 off the price. That alone pays for the pro membership for that month. There is a misconception that only big spenders can have their subscription pay for itself. That's simply not true. The subscription savings are the real deal.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1325056#Comment_1325056

There is a misconception that only big spenders can have their subscription pay for itself. That's simply not true. The subscription savings are the real deal.

Sure, it all depends. Back when I was building my library, concentrating on discounts was the key. And it paid off, grandly.

But after 'thinking' about the whole thing, I agree with 1CO (our resident Logosian financial economist) ... the piper has to be paid, at some point. Bob seemed to do a lot of re-investing (arguing the profits were just barely). But the PE's will get their due. Just a matter of 'who' pays.

Yesterday, I sidled up to Amazon, saving wildly over Logos. I was 'honestly' surprised. Why was the Logos price so far out of line? So I started looking at 'nearby' Logos books as well (not to mention the Logos.com engine that just can't).

Seems to me, the stable has to be re-valued at some point. Offering a series of discounts to some subscribers has to be made up somewhere. I doubt the subscriber marginal increase is that significant.

Aaron Hamilton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1325063#Comment_1325063

Yesterday, I sidled up to Amazon, saving wildly over Logos.

The struggle is real. Sales are key.

I doubt the subscriber marginal increase is that significant

Another possibility is that subscriber discounts lead to increased sales. After all, the more you spend, the more you save! (At least until the wallet is empty. Then one wonders where all the savings ran off to.)

I always appreciate your thoughts [:)]

1Cor10 31

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1325063#Comment_1325063

I agree with 1CO (our resident Logosian financial economist)

... the piper has to be paid, at some point. Bob seemed to do a lot of re-investing (arguing the profits were just barely). But the PE's will get their due. Just a matter of 'who' pays.....Offering a series of discounts to some subscribers has to be made up somewhere. I doubt the subscriber marginal increase is that significant.

How can I disagree with DMB who agrees with me! People have immense respect for Bob, the founder of Logos. If there was a win-win system, don't we think that he would have implemented it? If we are not in a win-win world, then Private Equity owners are not interested in lining your pockets at their expense.

In another post, I mentioned that the 2025 Libraries have so much bloat than prior libraries that we are effectively paying more for the resources we are interested within those libraries. In this one, I will show that this 5% additional saving is also a myth using one category of an example: I will show that Logos has increased the prices of the Legacy libraries.

I got the screenshots of my price for certain legacy libraries I was interested in before subscription (sometime in the week before subscription started). 'Cos I know the playbook of Private Equity based on the research that has been done on private equity, my friends. I know they are going to increase the price. So I also got screenshots of the same library after subscription (sometimes in the first 7 days).

Look for 2 things in the screenshots below: Dynamic Collection Value and Dynamic Price (price before 25% discount) so that we can first do a apples-to-apples comparison.

The Dynamic Collection Value remains the same in all cases implying the library contents has not changed and the pricing of the individual resources has not changed.

The Dynamic Price has gone up in every instance that I looked. What explains this behavior/behaviour (for our non-US friends)? Other than they have jacked up the price bcos of the 5% peace offering to woo subscribers!

In the following example, the price has gone up from $10.24 to $12.78. (The Dynamic Sale Price has also gone up even after the 5% discount from $8.19 to $9.58)

Logos 8 Lutheran Silver (before subscription)

Logos 8 Luther Silver (after subscription)

In the following example, the price has gone up from $17.39 to $21.72 (The Dynamic Sale Price has also gone up even after the 5% discount from $13.91 to $16.29)

Logos 7 Standard Silver (before subscription)

Logos 7 Standard Silver (after subscription)

Sure, there are also cases where the Dynamic Price has not increased by 5%, so the additional 5% reduces the price compared to earlier. See below an example like that.

Note the Dynamic Price has increased from $306.12 to $320.99, but the Dynamic Sale Price, which factors in the additional 5% has gone down has gone down from $244.90 to $240.74 (thus favoring customers).

Logos 8 Reformed Platinum (before subscription)

Logos 8 Reformed Platinum (after subscription)

Smart Logosians will point that we get an additional 5% cash back. Yes, in some cases, we will get resources a bit cheaper after the 5% cash back. The point I am making is that prices are going to continue to go up because Private Equity owners are looking for their return on investment. This is not Bob's world anymore. Feel free to cling on to Bob's world if it helps you sleep at night. Alternatively, we should stop being an ostrich and learn from research that people have done on Private Equity. Its your choice.

Prices are going to continue going up and the profitability knob will be turned ever so slightly continuously until they see profitability turn down because they've jacked up their prices too much. Bob's world was not about maximizing profit. Private Equity's world is the opposite.

Aaron Hamilton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1325112#Comment_1325112

I will show that this 5% additional saving is also a myth using one category of an example: I will show that Logos has increased the prices of the Legacy libraries.

Your post contains helpful insight that I consider to be perfectly valid. But it presents neither the only perspective nor the whole picture. The choice that Logos customers have regarding the 5% savings on resources is clear: subscribe and get it, or don't subscribe and don't get it. There's nothing theoretical about that. Either the 5% leaves your pocket or it doesn't. Sure, one could just throw up hands in frustration and find a different store to do business with. But as long as one is purchasing resources from Logos, the 5% discount is a reality that should play into any logical thinker's decision.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1325115#Comment_1325115

But it presents neither the only perspective nor the whole picture.

Yes ... it's the old JC Penney problem. The sale price (from an increased regular price), or just the regular (lower) price.

Over the years, Logos has worked its way into a buy-on-sale (or now 5% off! if you give us more money sale) to where the regular catalog is a question mark. I hadn't seen 1CO's examples in such stark detail. If I don't subscribe I'm paying inflated prices! Maybe just not pay.

But I'd argue, the long-term damper is buy or not (period). I still think a good Logos library can be had at fairly limited investment. The logic for more-more to feed a search engine .... meh.

Lance Roberts

A true tragedy, and I agree with the OP, just for money when they were already making a good profit, no benefit to the user. It really hoses those missionaries and others in foreign countries. I have gifted some the package before so there was no cost to the user, but now I am wanting to give a package to someone in the Philippines, but won't dare now as I don't want to put that burden on them. I just want to buy them the same Logos 10 package I have.

I emailed Bob directly but found out he is just a board member and minority shareholder now, so like a lot of businesses out there I expect to see the decline. Sad to start to watch the decline as I have put a small fortune (literally) into my Logos program and plan to will it to someone.

MJ. Smith

@Lance Roberts

A true tragedy, and I agree with the OP, just for money when they were already making a good profit, no benefit to the user.

How do you know they were already making a good profit. I had come to a different conclusion - that their profits were not sufficient to support the infrastructure upgrade so essential to continue growth.

Aaron Hamilton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1350613#Comment_1350613

That's wonderful and generous of you to be willing to gift Logos 10 to others. It could be argued that for those without such a generous friend, a monthly subscription is far more realistic to budget for and maintain. I know that one of the hopes of the new subscription model is to attract a wider audience with a lower entrance barrier. Another benefit is that they can roll out updates quicker to users, every six weeks instead of every two years. Also, a subscription model will alleviate to some extent the motivation to invest in flashy features needed to sell the newest version. It could be argued that Logos is already quite complex and feature rich and would benefit more on the whole from incremental improvements to already-existing features than brand new feature additions. Of course, there are valid reasons behind a variety of perspectives on the issue.

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1350633#Comment_1350633

And this leads to the circular point for point argument that is the "elephant in the room" - while it may be a lower up front cost (though Logos had offered payment plans) - is it really a better deal? When I (possibly) paid a little more to OWN the product, if I no longer had the resources to pay a monthly fee or if I just found that I had everything that I needed for my personal use - I OWNED and lost none of my product…

Today's new users own nothing and pay for months or years and if something comes up that leads to the need to cancel, they wind up with a free engine with limited features and limited resources… Yet somehow that is a better deal??? Only for the company and their new "Netflix" minded business attitude (Pay perpetually or go use Tubi or YouTube)

DMB

Yep … my original plan was to gift Logos when I'm …. well, gee, about my current age. I've designed it for research, not theology, and so a specific targeted giftee (LOL).

But I'm not even sure what a giftee now gets, or a 'will-ee', for that matter. Are the features stripped? Does feature ownership 'pass'? Of course, there's the case for just move the account, but I'm not sure what FL's policy is now days.

Then there's the subscription costs. I really think forumites, that are beneficiaries of FL's 'be-quiet' largesse, don't quite fathom what's facing new Logosians … significant monthly costs to use fairly basic OL features. Hopefully the pastors have well-endowed churches. And they're on the ride for the duration … all the expensive books and packages they buy need features. They're on the hook, or they have a pretty decent albatross.

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1350642#Comment_1350642

I'm not aware of anything stated that the policy has changed, though we are seeing other long time "policy" like changes… So, who knows…

Just continued reasoning that I have gone from doing presentations of the software, to recommending people look elsewhere... There's no long term benefit for a new user that is not attached to perpetual payments in comparison to the ability to own.

Doc B

I wonder if anyone downloaded the catalog six months, or a year, ago. I should have, but didn't. Perhaps the wayback machine might have some useful data.

I'd really like to see how that 5% works based on changes made to the normal price of the products. If they raised prices 10% to offer a 5% discount, that's an equine of differential pigmentation.

1Cor10 31

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1350627#Comment_1350627

Private equity investors are super smart (on average). If they didn't believe that they could incorporate changes to Logos so to throw out gobs of cash flow for their investors in turn, they wouldn't have bought Logos from the founder, Bob Pritchett.

From what I've read on the Forums, Bob was not a profit maximizer. You can be sure that private equity investors are totally not like Bob. They will squeeze every last drop of profit out of Logos. Which means, everything is going to go up in price.

DMB

I've already been jumping ship (unfortunately). I 'honestly' don't know if it's just the books I'm buying, but recently Logos just hasn't been competitive (the Big A being well under Logos; one exception).

Maybe they're putting all their marbles into subscriptions, packages, and 5% off.

Mark Allison

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1350639#Comment_1350639

After two years of paying for a subscription, you'll own all the features you paid for over those two years.

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1350777#Comment_1350777

Not "all" the features - just the features that are not tied to AI or "the cloud" - there is a list somewhere from Mark and I posted the "new" "ownable" for L10 FFL owners in the same thread - but the point is, in regards to the OP - a user HAS to subscribe to upgrade and even with the LFL, unlike all previous upgrades - you do not "own" anything (even if you pay for the 2 year plan) until after the two year plan is complete. (Which makes no sense - since you can't get a refund)

Mark Allison

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1350780#Comment_1350780

Logos can't give you AI features in perpetuity because it's an ongoing cost for Logos. And of course you don't get to keep features until you pay for them. You're basically paying for them on an installment plan. If you decide not to pay for them, you don't get to keep them. And why would you get a refund? You've been having the benefit of using these features while you've been paying for them.

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1350781#Comment_1350781

If you pay for a two year plan - you are not on a payment plan - you are "paid off" - so why make the customer wait two years for the license to be permanent? (It is non refundable)

As to why would a user ask for a refund? Maybe the subscription fails to meet the value in a users eyes - so why not allow for prorated refunds? In the past, I seem to recall a "grace" period for purchases…

I also understand the ongoing cost of AI, etc - I clarified your statement "you own all the features" for those that may take that as fact.

I honestly think that a subscription for those who want AI is a very good idea (I just wish it wasn't forced on all users - a non AI offering would be nice as well)

Mark Allison

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1350783#Comment_1350783

I didn't realize that if you paid for the entire two years up front that it wasn't refundable. If was thinking about the monthly payment plan.

I agree that if you pay up front for two years and want to cancel after 1 month, you should be able to receive a pro-rated refund.

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1350784#Comment_1350784

Yeah, I would say a non-refundable monthly is fair - it's the annual and the biannual that I think is bad customer service. A customer stuck with either, if the company doesn't deliver good value is a good way to lose customers long term.

Mark Allison

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1350795#Comment_1350795

Do you have a link for info on that? When I search for "perpetual license" on the Logos site I get no hits.

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1350796#Comment_1350796

My guess is he is thinking of the LFL....

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1350799#Comment_1350799

Or maybe the "free" engine?

Frank Sauer

I too have seen better pricing elsewhere…. Logos was typically higher priced (not counting the discounted prices of packages) on single books - usually it seemed to be reasoned that it was due to the tagging for the resource to work well in the Logos platform….

I haven't kept an actual log - but of the few books that I have compared recently - it's been no contest with the other options saving me a good bit…

I know some will say that the 5% discount and 5% cash back on some subscriptions they offer will give you a better price - but I am paying for that better price…. So is it really better?

Doc B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1350759#Comment_1350759

Be like Bob.

Dave Hooton

I wonder if @Ice Deep got a resolution to their problem?

Ice Deep

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1324989#Comment_1324989

Are you saying I can download the latest version of the engine and not pay anything? DEAL! Sign me up… I could care less about new features… my Logos 9 crashes all the time. I just want to use the books I have. How do I do that and not subscribe or pay anything?

Ice Deep

Not yet, I am hoping to find a way to reinstall Logos 9 or install Logos 10. So, I can use my books without crashing. I have no desire to continue my relationship with Logos, beyond what I already have. The program is cool… but I get the feeling of being juiced. I don't like that feeling.

Graham Criddle

Are you saying I can download the latest version of the engine and not pay anything?

Yes you can - but it's worth checking what version of the software engine you are actually using first.

I know you mention Logos 9 but I wonder if that relates to the latest package you bought as opposed to the version of the software engine. If you click the three dots icon at the top-right / bottom-left of your Logos window you should see a popup menu that includes the option About Logos. If you click that you should get a panel showing you, among other things, what version of the engine you are using.

If you are running anything other than Logos 39 (the latest software release), entering the command update now in the command box should download the latest version.

Graham Criddle

So, I can use my books without crashing

And once we know what version you are using and, ideally, once you have the latest version if you are still having issues with the program crashing I suggest starting a new thread where we can explore that with you.

You might actually want to hold off doing the update now command for a day or so - but it would be good to know what version of the software engine you are running - because some people are having issues with the latest release, Logos 39.

Ice Deep

Hi Graham, I am on 9.17.0.0020 aka 9.17 SR-2. I started a separate thread about the crashing.

Graham Criddle

Hi Graham, I am on 9.17.0.0020 aka 9.17 SR-2. I started a separate thread about the crashing.

Thanks for advising that - I can't see your separate thread so continuing here.

Is there a particular reason why you are still running 9.17? Did you deliberately choose to not upgrade or was there a reason why it couldn't be done?

What platform are you running on (OS and version)?

Mark Allison

I used to have no problem getting a monograph for the Kindle if it was less expensive. However, with Logos' new search features and the ability to incorporate the contents of a monograph in the overall search summary, I think it's worth sticking with Logos. And for research resources like commentaries, lexicons, Bible dictionaries, etc., it's a no-brainer. They're MUCH more functional in Logos and I'm willing to pay the extra overhead.

Ice Deep

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1354228#Comment_1354228

In my initial post, I posted that I thought upgrading was confusing. I thought you had to buy a new package to upgrade. I have searched before on how to upgrade and not found anything useful beyond buying a new package. In going from Logos 7 to 8 and 8 to 9 I did Crossgrades. Which just upgraded features with no new resources. If you can tell me the procedure for updating to 10 or even how to uninstall 9 and reinstall 9. I would be appreciative. It's frustrating having so much money sunk into something that is borderline unusable. If I have good will towards a company I will gladly spend money on them. The lack of clarity on this is one of the things that has begun to make me want to move away from Logos.

Mark Allison

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1354250#Comment_1354250

I'm a new user, but I'm pretty sure all you need to do is download the app and install it.

https://www.logos.com/get-started

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1354252#Comment_1354252

This should work, though it may be beneficial to uninstall and start fresh considering the crash issues.

Graham Criddle

This should work, though it may be beneficial to uninstall and start fresh considering the crash issues.

I'd try the install first.

Just deleting the app and reinstalling wouldn't address any possible issues with corruption in any of the databases (not saying there is any) so they would need to be deleted as well and downloaded again

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1354254#Comment_1354254

Running uninstall should remove everything, including the databases.

Graham Criddle

Running uninstall should remove everything, including the databases.

Are you sure? I didn't think that was the case

Ice Deep

Okay just to confirm… if I uninstall and reinstall I won't be forced to buy anything as far as you guys know.

Ice Deep

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1354256#Comment_1354256

Side Note: Shout out to Graham, as I was able to get my version number by holding down CTRL while opening Logos… which opened it without anything open and it did not crash. I probably have something corrupted somwhere. Before that, I tried doing a repair in the "Add Remove Programs" box in windows and it did not fix it. I also tried removing my cache files in the logos directory, but it had no affect. Good job Graham!!!

Graham Criddle

Okay just to confirm… if I uninstall and reinstall I won't be forced to buy anything as far as you guys know.

Yes, that is correct

I was able to get my version number by holding down CTRL while opening Logos… which opened it without anything open and it did not crash. I probably have something corrupted somwhere

Often with those types of crashes it is due to a corrupt layout.

Do you have a particular layout that you normally open Logos to?

Ice Deep

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1354263#Comment_1354263

Now it only crashes after a couple of searches. I am going to uninstall and reinstall and see what happens.

Kevin Houghtaling

Those who had the L10 FFS seem to have the better deal going forward. I am hard pressed to recommend a subscription forever account to a newbie. I am not clear how a newbie is treated. After two years is there any portion of a FFS (minus AI dependency) provided?

It would be beneficial if someone could now purchase L10 as it was but be locked out of subscription discounts or something of that nature. For someone without Internet, L10 would still be as good as many here learned to treasure and use for study.

Steven MacDonald

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1354295#Comment_1354295

Hi, Kevin.

There is also a Logos Free App that anyone can download. It won't include all of the advanced features however that would be included with the subscription.

May at some point Logos will consider adding the option of purchasing a non-AI version. Time will tell.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1354295#Comment_1354295

Logos 10 FFS owners were rewarded for their past investment in Logos with a discounted subscription. Those owners who upgraded to the L10 FFS prior to subscription launch received a discount for previous ownership and received the same discount on their subscription. New users on Logos Max get to use the same features (plus new ones). If any user cancels after two years (24 consecutive months) the Legacy Fallback license allows them to keep all offline** features in their subscription tier.

** AI and Cloud features are excluded.