No internet at Church....
It seems that Proclaim is heavily internet based for colaboratively building the service parts in.
But what if we don't have internet in our church building? (Country church etc.)
Will proclaim allow my team members to do all the packaging on their computers and then bring a thumbdrive to church as one package?
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you.
Comments
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Hi Thomas
My understanding (from Alpha testing) is that it will be possible to run a presentation in "cached" mode to cater for loss of Internet connection.
However, the process of preparing the presentation will be cloud-based and I am not aware of any current (not even sure about planned) mechanism to use thumbdrives to transfer them from one computer to another.
Graham
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And we've been told you cannot modify a program except when online.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Mark A. Smith said:
And we've been told you cannot modify a program except when online.
That would make sense, the whole point is that everything is integrated...no "one point editing" allowed....
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Graham Criddle said:
Hi Thomas
My understanding (from Alpha testing) is that it will be possible to run a presentation in "cached" mode to cater for loss of Internet connection.
However, the process of preparing the presentation will be cloud-based and I am not aware of any current (not even sure about planned) mechanism to use thumbdrives to transfer them from one computer to another.
Graham
Mark A. Smith said:And we've been told you cannot modify a program except when online.
I have to say I’m a bit disappointed as I was hoping for a bit more latitude with non-cloud assessable environments (no internet or Limited internet). I was thinking you could package up a sermon/presentation and "alla-kazam" (lol), becasue the framework was the same you would have a highly function presentation without the usual hiccups.
[:'(]
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You can have the presentation off-line, but can't modify it that way. So if you get to where you are going to project and want to make a last minute change you can't do that without going online.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Not another Cloud based fiasco from Logos!!! Please, forget the cloud and develop for local installation.
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Mark A. Smith said:
You can have the presentation off-line, but can't modify it that way. So if you get to where you are going to project and want to make a last minute change you can't do that without going online.
Thanks Mark, That seals the option on this one for us. We're not planning on bringing the internet to the church - completely impractical.
I appreciate the answers everybody.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Dennis Miller said:
Not another Cloud based fiasco from Logos!!! Please, forget the cloud and develop for local installation.
I suspect the internet requirement is simply to avoid requiring a local server and network for use on multiple computers.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Here is Bob Pritchett's remarks on the Internet from the alpha test group postings:
"There will be an offline caching mode to ensure functionality in the
event of a lost Internet connection. But the general design assumption
is that Internet access will be available; this eliminates the need to
use USB keys or CD's to put the data on the presentation computer, and
it enables a whole world of new "remote control/remote prompter"
functionality that we'll be including in future releases.We know some churches have no Internet access, and Proclaim probably won't be the best tool for them."
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Bob Pritchett said:
We know some churches have no Internet access, and Proclaim probably won't be the best tool for them."
Thats 95% of the UK, and over 80% of US/Canada market surrendered. Seems a VERY strange markrting decision..
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
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DominicM said:Bob Pritchett said:
We know some churches have no Internet access, and Proclaim probably won't be the best tool for them."
Thats 95% of the UK, and over 80% of US/Canada market surrendered. Seems a VERY strange markrting decision..
That's not what I would have guessed. Where do those stats come from?
I would bet that a good number of those without internet are also not projecting on screens.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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the uk stats are from 2009, but would not have expected a huge rise in a year, the US iigures are a guesstimate
True, but if we are looking at the future and converting those who are still using OHP/Acetates to projection, the need for a internet connection is likely to deter a lot of churches, why put in internet if you are only going to use it 2-6hrs per week..?
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
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DominicM said:
US iigures are a guesstimate
83% of all statistics are made up. (as is this one, and the last one) [:)]
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DominicM said:Bob Pritchett said:
We know some churches have no Internet access, and Proclaim probably won't be the best tool for them."
Thats 95% of the UK, and over 80% of US/Canada market surrendered. Seems a VERY strange markrting decision..
Here are some statistics I found:
Source: http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/fastfacts/fast_facts.html#sizecong
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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DominicM said:
True, but if we are looking at the future and converting those who are still using OHP/Acetates to projection, the need for a internet connection is likely to deter a lot of churches, why put in internet if you are only going to use it 2-6hrs per week..?
My church uses hymnals in worship. The internet is for office (and school) use. I suspect many churches are the same.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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I agree with most here. Practicality is king in church "programs". Proclaim does not sound practical much less flexible.
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I don't see a lack of internet connection as being a big deal. Even though we don't have an internet connection in our
I think it's a positive step by Logos, as it shows that they're looking forward to the future. It will only be a very few years until internet access will be ubiquitous and cheap. By designing a program around that assumption, they make themselves more future-proof, less platform dependent, and more flexible.
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Thomas Black said:Mark A. Smith said:
You can have the presentation off-line, but can't modify it that way. So if you get to where you are going to project and want to make a last minute change you can't do that without going online.
Thanks Mark, That seals the option on this one for us. We're not planning on bringing the internet to the church - completely impractical.
I appreciate the answers everybody.
Hi Tom, all,
Don't forget that the program is still in alpha.
2nd point. I don't have internet at the church I pastor; they can't even afford my computer.... so I lug a laptop back & forth. I've tested the alpha off-line & believe that I CAN make changes to whatever I've been working on. It appears to just sync at the next availability of internet (when I go home).
Because it's in alpha, I wouldn't assume that there'll be no provision for off-line use. In fact, I'd assume they're waiting to find out who the real audience for this product will be, & they need to hear from you how you'd really use it.
I'm a 5-year user / trainer of a competing product whose name includes our sabbath day & a math symbol. We selected our product in 2 churches, now, for 2 main reasons: 1) how easy it is in "tiny church" to train someone when your usual AV person is absent for some reason; & 2) site license, so all who participate in development of the weekly projection slides can have a copy of the software.
Proclaim has the same site license philosophy (per a note from Bob P - he'll eventually weigh in here if he hasn't already), though the price scales upward for larger churches. Also Proclaim is just as intuitive as the product I use & has a lot going for it for small churches without internet, if Logos chooses to embrace them more fully in subsequent releases (via ability to save/store offline). If they had done so with this product & it were available 5 years ago, I'd likely already be a Proclaim user.
Blessings!
Grace & Peace,
Bill
MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
iPad 9th Gen iOS 15.6, 256GB0 -
DominicM said:Bob Pritchett said:
We know some churches have no Internet access, and Proclaim probably won't be the best tool for them."
Thats 95% of the UK, and over 80% of US/Canada market surrendered. Seems a VERY strange markrting decision..
[Y]
Floyd Johnson said:Here are some statistics I found:
Source: http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/fastfacts/fast_facts.html#sizecong
Thanks for the data & link... Most likely, over 2/3 of those churches won't put internet in the sanctuary on purpose (wireless may provide accidental pockets of connectivity, but few of those smaller churches will have $ and fewer will have enough technical folks to be able to make the case for it. Like you say... intended market?
Grace & Peace,
Bill
MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
iPad 9th Gen iOS 15.6, 256GB0 -
Sometimes cutting edge means fewer customers during the revolution...wonder how long that can last.
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Rene Atchley said:
Sometimes cutting edge means fewer customers during the revolution.
True. BUt it depends on the answer to a different question: in the "revolution," what's going to drive smaller churches to have internet in the sanctuary----ever?
As pastor of one of those small churches, I'm not seeing one, even tho' as a retired geek I'd be more inclined than anyone else in the church.
[8-|]
Rene Atchley said:wonder how long that can last.
Or even if it has to be that way if they choose to support off-line users.[:)]
Grace & Peace,
Bill
MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
iPad 9th Gen iOS 15.6, 256GB0 -
I get it Bill...at least partially. There is this new fangled great technology that would make congregational life more effective and efficient if everyone would just buy it, install several upgrades, pay more bills, and spend lots more time learning the steep education curve. One wonders however if market revolutions are more often led by the consumer looking for cheap solutions or fancy pants carpetbaggers with all their new contraptions. A slightly skewed story but I think you get the point.
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Hi Rene,
Actually, I'm an alpha tester, & a current user of a competing product, which has been selected by numerous tiny churches to use in projection of worship music, & announcements, & even enrichment to sermons. We've used it in both churches I've pastored for music, announcements, & Scriptures. Older eyes in both congregations have appreciated larger fonts than are practical in our bulletin. When they reailze they can read it, even the most conservative have been quite receptive--even appreciative.
I'm finding Proclaim to be very intuitive--as much so as the product we use & had selected for its intuitive interface. Why did we pick one with an intuitive interface being a key criteria? On the day the usual AV person is sick or out of town, it's pretty handy to be able to train someone (often a teen) in 5-10 minutes to be able to project for us.
Our other key criteria was cost. Tiny church. Very low budget. Many of the non-linear packages we reviewed had per-user license fees. The one we selected offered a site license--anyone that needs it to prepare slides for weekly projection can have a copy on the machine they use.
If Logos confirms publicly what they've said in the alpha forum, for my tiny church, Proclaim would've been very attractively priced.
Edit / Add: As far as upgraded software goes, the alpha seems to be doing what L4 does: upgrade automagically when you sign in. I'd be surprised if they had a fee involved, given their history on L3 & L4. If you want to use pre-prepared slides (backgrounds, etc.), I believe that may be another story--same principle in L3 / L4, charging for the resources...
Grace & Peace,
Bill
MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
iPad 9th Gen iOS 15.6, 256GB0 -
Rene Atchley said:
I get it Bill
BTW, love the cat pic... we have a Main Coon who looks almost identical... same M on the forehead... ours is a long hair.
Grace & Peace,
Bill
MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
iPad 9th Gen iOS 15.6, 256GB0 -
Well thank you very much.
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I pastor a small (100+) and conservative church. We sing from hymn books. But we use projection occasionally during the service (missionary presentations, announcements, themes for our meetings) and about 2/3 the time for notes when I'm preaching. We also have internet in our auditorium, primarily for our sound guys to connect to the other network services to post .mp3 audio. We deliver more messages via .mp3 than CD.
I said all that to say that, in concept, I think proclaim is a great idea. I'm not sure we'll need it as a church (I don't do beta testing). But I believe the web and cloud computing to be eventual for all of us (maybe not in our churches ... but in life). I think that it's smart for Logos, a company with an established income stream, to begin thinking of other products in the same industry that can leverage their profit model and still prepare them for the future.
Whether they succeed with Proclaim or not, I'm excited to invest in products with a company that is forward thinking enough to consider future products and technology. It makes me think they'll be around for a while.
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I'm very interested in Proclaim. As for cloud computing everything is starting to shift that way and I believe Logos is trying to look forward in developing this. As a small Church that has just started we have a very limited budget but with the price I've seen for other worship software I believe Logos can come in with a very good price and I believe from what the videos show they will be looking to make more of the money from additional resources, just like the Bible software. I use Logos4 Mac and am very pleased with it. I have been using it since the alpha and yes there is room for improvement but I think it's really good software. Is it perfect, no, but it keeps getting better.
How do you become an Alpha tester for Proclaim? I really don't want to keep waiting because we really need the presentation software and we were about to purchase a different one until we heard about Proclaim. I really don't know if we can wait until summer for this though. We might just have to keep using Keynote until then[:#].
Stephen
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DominicM said:Bob Pritchett said:
We know some churches have no Internet access, and Proclaim probably won't be the best tool for them."
Thats 95% of the UK, and over 80% of US/Canada market surrendered. Seems a VERY strange markrting decision..
We actually surveyed our customers, and discovered that 50% attend a church with WiFi. (And 25% don't know if their church has it.) Now bigger churches have more members, so 50% of our users isn't the same as 50% of churches, but it's a good sign that a lot of churches have it. Moreover, a lot of mobile devices have it -- cell phones, iPads, etc.
There are lots of offline "let me bring the USB drive in on Sunday morning" solutions. So we're being quite intentional about being cloud based: Proclaim is _designed_ for Internet access, and much of what's cool about it (you'll see soon!) is cloud related. We're working to make the offline scenario even more robust than promised to the Alpha users, but it's intentionally not a primary feature. This is simply a cloud-based product, and everything about it was designed for that. (And to take advantage of the cloud in ways offline apps simply can't.)
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Bob Pritchett said:
50% of our users isn't the same as 50% of churches
I'd pretty much guarantee also that 50% of survey respondents doesn't equate to 50% of users.
Funnily, I don't remember this survey (or survey question) and I'm pretty sure that I've responded to each of the surveys over the last couple of years - but, my memory ain't what it used to be.
[Edit to add:] Even though the end product will most likely not be useful for us in the short-term, I am looking at how we can access the internet in all our churches/chapels.... for the updating of software and for the transfer of presentations. I'm also sure that there is currently a market for a product like Proclaim and that the market will only grow.
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Bob Pritchett said:
discovered that 50% attend a church with WiFi.
Well I would say those are rose-tinted figures, but will give you benefit, hopefully you havent had multiple submissions from the same church.
Bob Pritchett said:Moreover, a lot of mobile devices have it -- cell phones, iPads, etc.
yeah but have you ever tried connecting those to a projector..
Bob Pritchett said:We're working to make the offline scenario even more robust than promised to the Alpha users, but it's intentionally not a primary feature.
Thats good news, but what happens when you get to the service and there a last minute notice of vital imortance, without internet I understand it cannout be commmunitated on display.. dont get me wrong, agree with cloud for bulk of preparation.. but disagree on only cloud edits
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
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This might seem a naive question (I'm in the 95% of Brits mentioned earlier), but why would you want internet access in church? Live broadcasting services I can understand, and hooking up the office I can understand, but none of that equates to a publicly accessible WiFi net.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Hi Mark
As I see it, the issue is less about publicly-accessible WiFi but more as to whether the computer used to project slides during a service is Internet-connected.
Some of the uses I have seen for this include:
- playing YouTube videos during a service - saves having to download them beforehand
- streaming live content - a minister I know showed the service from the Cenotaph during the last Remembrance Day service
- hosting an after-school club for school children which included Internet access - so some form of community project. A similar idea would be providing an Internet cafe for people to drop in and use
So there are reasons for doing this - whether they justify the expense in some cases is another question!
Graham
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Churches that are within reach of a cell system might consider a MiFi-like device to enable modest Internet connectivity for a few devices...after the initial investment, the recurring cost isn't outrageous. If you are fortunate to be able to receive 4G, the throughput is usually adequate to most needs--but I'd probably not open that MiFi up for public use since most plans have a data cap, and it would just take one person watching NetFlix//running peer-to-peer sharing during a service to use up all the minutes.
Regarding Mark Barnes' question on why offer WiFi publicly, the church I attend is really wrestling with that. The office has WiFi, but they won't give out the passphrase--which I find irritating since I help pay that bill and would like to sync Logos. However, a deeper divide is that our church members don't embrace the use of digital devices (cellphones/laptops/iPads/etc) as Bible replacements during public gatherings. They aren't banned, but they are clearly frowned up--peer pressure. That doesn't seem to be a problem when folks Tweet or check Facebook from their cellphones though...[;)]
-- Perhaps the digital revolution will change the form of services in the future. I'd love to change the form of our small groups--leverage the information access possible through the internet to get away from lecture and to more of a participatory environment where folks can interact more to ensure the truth of scripture is applied in their lives. In this vein, I really wish there was a church license for Logos so that I could level the playing field of available tools/resources and make them commonly available during a small group.
Anyway, back to the OP's topic...
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Hi Mark,
The other thing to bear in mind is that depending on the layout of the church building etc. The church office which may well have Wifi for work purposes during the week sometimes reaches much of the building anyway, so it may be unintentionally there in some buildings.
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How do I explain this without sounding patronising???
Most of the churches in the UK are Victorian or earlier, before phones were popular, most "church offices" in the UK are not in the churches themselves, in fact most have no church office let alone phone line to provide DSL. For most chuches in the UK, the pastor/minister's study or church office is a room in the minister's house, which can be miles from the church..
There is also a significant percent who have no fixed abode, they rent buildings or school halls purely for meeting on sunday morning, and then meet in houses mid-week, our church fits this model..
I appreciate this is different in the USA and recent UK purpose built churches, and the larger megachurches which it seems like you are aiming at... but am sure in the US you also will have these same issues in small towns/rural locations
There may be potential to get 3g/HDSA internet via a dongle but the cost/GB is very expensive here in the UK.
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
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Hi Dominic,
Just to clarify I am UK based, and I will accept that a significant proportion (probably most) will have the issue you describe. However there is a growing number of churches utilising newer or non-purpose built buildings, including rented places, especially outside of the mainstream denominations and church plants. Although the % of these may be small they do exist and may be an ideal place for something such as this where the facilities do already exist.
I accept though that many of the traditional buildings are unsuitable, especially given the thickness of some of the walls!
Kenny
<EDIT> Just read your last but one paragraph, it was these UK churches I was thinking of! Sorry!</EDIT>
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I am the minister of a congregation that is a little under 100. We have internet here in the office and it is set up on WiFi for my laptop and a few others (i.e. committees, treasurer, etc.). I can see how beneficial proclaim will be for us.
Addressing a public network matter, I do wonder if you will be able to push information out to individuals from the cached information. That way you could set up a network without connection to the internet and push everything out from the cached. That would be very interesting.
Finally, there are a lot of comments on here about the cloud and they tend to be pretty negative overall. Whether or not one likes the cloud concept, it is the future of computing technology. Everything is going to be cloud based with time and the need for local hard drives will be completely eliminated. Microsoft gets this with Skydrive and Google gets it with their Apps suits which includes their docs. I use dropbox, box.net, mozy and a ton of other cloud features.
I see Proclaim as Logos again leading the way into the new generation of technology. Proclaim is the future of computing and the future of church presentation software. Considering how many people we have who have smartphones and other such connected devices (in such a small congregation), this could be a great tool!!! The cloud and online functionality is ideal for us when we have so many people who work to put our worship service together and I think others will find it to be the same. Thanks Logos!!!
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Graham Criddle said:
Hi Thomas
My understanding (from Alpha testing) is that it will be possible to run a presentation in "cached" mode to cater for loss of Internet connection.
However, the process of preparing the presentation will be cloud-based and I am not aware of any current (not even sure about planned) mechanism to use thumbdrives to transfer them from one computer to another.
Graham
How did you get an Alpha to it? Where could I signup for an Alpha. Our church could REALLY use this right now for a project, so I'd jump at an Alpha of it!
Thanks!
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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Thomas Black said:Mark A. Smith said:
You can have the presentation off-line, but can't modify it that way. So if you get to where you are going to project and want to make a last minute change you can't do that without going online.
Thanks Mark, That seals the option on this one for us. We're not planning on bringing the internet to the church - completely impractical.
I appreciate the answers everybody.
How about an aircard or MiFi? Those new plans are somewhat-more affordable, and would be able to bring the Internet to at least your church's AV machine.
I know, what you really need is Wi-Net. Still working on it. Once I can finally get the fish to bite, maybe I can help finally bring Internet to your church. :-)
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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Nathan Parker said:
How did you get an Alpha to it? Where could I signup for an Alpha.
Hi Nathan
Several months ago there was an invitation from Logos to apply for Alpha testing which is what I did.
The only thing I can suggest at the moment is to contact Logos and see what they say.
Graham
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Monthly fees are about the same and aside from a few hours on Sunday's completely pointless. Of course there's always dialup. [+o(]Nathan Parker said:How about an aircard or MiFi? Those new plans are somewhat-more affordable, and would be able to bring the Internet to at least your church's AV machine.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
I don't think that this has been discussed but....
What about those who work on their presentations away from church (in a coffee shop?)
The actual presentation is not cloud based...just the prep of it....
That would render this question moot...im just sayin....
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Hi Robert
If I understand you correctly, this approach would need someone who had prepared a presentation in the coffee shop to get it to church somehow. With the church not having Internet access it would need some form of USB pen or something similar.
Bob has stated - http://community.logos.com/forums/p/28518/212310.aspx#212310 - that this is not the market they are aiming at.
Graham
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Well...what if the same laptop that you present it on is the same one that you prepare it on?
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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That should work - but you probably wouldn't be able to change it at church if you wanted any last-minute adjustments.
Graham
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Graham..
Actually you could...but you just can SHARE your edits with other collaborators...and by that time....it shouldn't have to go out to others right?
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Graham Criddle said:
probably wouldn't be able to change it at church if you wanted any last-minute adjustments.
Graham,
In the current beta, you're right. The Edit button is grayed out when turned off my wireless adapter, started Proclaim off-line, & attempted to edit a file I'd just created. That's a problem for at least my church. I can't tell you how often "events" cause us to make last second changes in what we project. What events, you ask? Typos that we discover in the bulletin, for instance. As people come in, those responsible for something find an error (either in what they gave us or in how we transcribed it--either in the bulletin or on screen), & they ask us to change it. Or maybe the worship leader wants a last second substitution in the worship music we sing before the service starts. Or maybe the date & time of a scheduled event in the coming week's calendar has to change for some reason that we didn't find out until just before worship started. Or maybe a new calendared event needs to be announced & included in the week's events that are projected just prior to the start of worship. These have all happened. Over & over. We count on being able to make those changes, all on text slides that we produced.
If we can't make these kinds of changes last minute, while not connected to the internet, we'd be unable to use Proclaim. I'm betting most other small churches without internet (& no plan for it) in the sanctuary would feel similarly. And I'll bet the number of those churches that could otherwise benefit from Proclaim dwarfs the number of churches that will have internet available during worship.
I appreciate the cloud gluing us together during development. I get that. But if we couldn't make last minute changes in the text WE developed on for projection on our single AV PC in worship, Proclaim just wouldn't work for us.
Hope I've stated the case clearly. :-)
Grace & Peace,
Bill
MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
iPad 9th Gen iOS 15.6, 256GB0 -
Graham Criddle said:Nathan Parker said:
How did you get an Alpha to it? Where could I signup for an Alpha.
Hi Nathan
Several months ago there was an invitation from Logos to apply for Alpha testing which is what I did.
The only thing I can suggest at the moment is to contact Logos and see what they say.
Graham
Thanks! I contacted someone at Logos and I'll see what they say.
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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Thomas Black said:
Monthly fees are about the same and aside from a few hours on Sunday's completely pointless. Of course there's always dialup.Nathan Parker said:How about an aircard or MiFi? Those new plans are somewhat-more affordable, and would be able to bring the Internet to at least your church's AV machine.
True. Whenever I can finally do something with Wi-Net, I'll see if I can help your church out. I am going to need a tester once I have a device I can hold in my hands. :-)
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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