A Gift to ALL Catholics *smile*
Comments
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Matthew C Jones said:
there is no sin so great the blood of Jesus can not cover it.
No contest. You are totally missing the point. The sins that are committed unknowingly. ...Ones that happen because of misinformation will not keep anyone out of Heaven. They didn't know they were sins.
James 4:17
So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.
It is the ones who knowingly sin...or cause others to sin by deceiving them who must accept a harsher penalty.
Heb 10:26-28For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
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K.J. said:
On what statistics do you base such a supposition?
I had vowed to stay out of this but as this is a question of fact - you may chose the source of statistics that you want. Add together the following groups: Church of the East, Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, and at least most of the Methodists, Presbyterians and United Church of Christ ... I know I've left out several other "Protestant" groups where I think but am not certain use the Nicene Creed. Divide that number by the total number of Christians in the world. With most statistical sources on the web this comes out to 79-80%. But crunch the numbers for yourself.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I know I've left out several other "Protestant" groups where I think but am not certain use the Nicene Creed.
There are many churches that do not officially use the Nicene Creed but do acknowledge the Bible-based doctrines the creed contains.The specific "one holy church" point is held by:
- The Southern Baptist Convention,
- Independent Christian Church,/Church of Christ,
- Congregationalist,
- Pentecostal churches (AOG, 4 Square, Apostolic & Full-Gospel),
- COGIC
Most accept local congregational autonomy in church polity but believe to be a Christian means you are part of the one "body of Christ" or "family of God" They view all true believers as brothers and sisters in Christ. Then they begin the litmus tests to determine who is a "true" Christian.
I still maintain the number who believe in one universal Church of true believers is much greater than 70~80%.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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K.J. said:
The ones who Will Not be there are the higher-ups in the "religious organizations" who knowingly deceive the flock.
Seeing as I'm the only forum regular who is accordingly going to Hell, this very appropriate conversation can carry on....
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K.J. said:
It is the ones who knowingly sin...or cause others to sin by deceiving them who must accept a harsher penalty.
I generally agree with you but must that penalty necessarily be damnation? The book of 1 John was written to believers who had already accepted Christ. In 1 John 1:7-10 states:
- The blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin.
- We all have sin that needs to be cleansed.
- We are forgiven those sins by confession.
- All who deny having sin are calling God a liar.
These are all written to Christians who have already applied the sacrifice. Christians sin after they get saved. Post conversion sin is avoidable but real.. Even our Weslyan friends will tell you, it happens. Check out the Holiness Collection (8 vols.)
When Jesus died for my sins I had not yet been born. His blood covers more than just my pre-conversion sins. It covers the last sin I will commit in my life. You have never met a Christian who never sinned after conversion. If a believer forfeits his salvation the first time he sins there will be no-one in Heaven but babies.
I'll leave it between you and your Bible how to handle the questions of indulgences, purgatory, works salvation, penance and the like. I've heard one (non-Catholic) old lady say the communion juice washes away her sins for the past week so she dare not die on a Saturday night. I myself will stick with 1 John 1:9 .
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Abi Gail said:fgh said:
George, George.. I was going to complement you for some of your posts here earlier today, and then you have to bring up islam and politics and destroy all the good you did. Shame!
Totally uncalled for. Where are the forum guideline cops now?I guess you're it.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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K.J. said:
"By 1545 Rome was under the spell of a new austerity. Reform was on the rise. The immoralities of Paul’s younger days were no longer acceptable behavior. The pope’s new rigor was apparent in the institution of the Roman Inquisition and in the Index of prohibited books—works that any Catholic risked damnation by reading. All the books of the Reformers were listed, as well as Protestant Bibles. For a long time merely to possess one of these banned books in Spain was punishable by death. The Index was kept up to date until 1959 and was finally abolished by Pope Paul VI."
Shelley, B. L. (1995). Church history in plain language (Updated 2nd ed.) (274). Dallas, Tex.: Word Pub.
"Inquisition Roman Catholic tribunal for the investigation, prosecution, and punishment of unrepentent heretics. In the Scriptures, the only punishment for heresy was excommunication, and the early fathers disapproved of physical penalties. According to St. John Chrysostom, putting a heretic to death was in itself “an inexpiable crime.” After Christianity became the state religion, the Catholic Church found it possible to use the power of civil authorities to suppress heresies and to discourage their spread. By 1184, under Pope Lucius III, it became the official policy of the Catholic Church to keep a watch on heretics and to hand over to civil authorities those who refused to recant."
Kurian, G. T. (2001). Nelson's new Christian dictionary : The authoritative resource on the Christian world. Nashville, Tenn.: Thomas Nelson Pubs.
On May 12,2000, at the beginning of the season of Lent Pope John Paul II declared: "As the Successor of Peter, I ask
that in this year of mercy the Church, strong in the holiness which she
receives from her Lord, should kneel before God and implore forgiveness for
the past and present sins of her sons and daughters." Perhaps, you missed this."Viva Cristo Rey!!"
Deacon Harbey Santiago
Archdiocese of Baltimore
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Dear Brother (or Sister - I can't tell from your initials),K.J. said:Matthew C Jones said:Go read all the posts made by Milford Charles Murray and you will see his words are those of a gentle soul, a "Peacemaker."
I totally understand Milford's motives. I never believed that his motives were divisive. However, when he prefaced his post with a paragraph which seemed to promote the theory that all Christians must be catholic(on some level, by some definition)...like it or not. Debate was inevitable.
If you were to start a similar thread and substitute the name of any denomination, then try to sell the theory that everyone is part of that movement...like it or not, what do you think the outcome would be?
Do you really understand all my motives. Sometimes I hardly understand them myself. *smile* I do struggle (as St. Paul did) with the Good that I Would and the evil that I Would Not. I live in the constant forgivess of my Lord and Saviour Jesus the Christ who shed His Blood for me.
When I posted the Sistine Chapel website, all I wanted to do is share with my brothers and sisters. Nothing more. Absolutely. Not a thing. It never occured to me that so many people - and so vehemently - would resent the small-letter "C" catholic word which to me simply means universal. To me the universal church consists of all true believers - regardless of denomination (be it ever so good or not so good at all!) who truly believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour or Lord. I tried to make one post which quoted Ephesians 4 to calm down this thread a wee bit, but to no avail. I mentioned that every issue of Logos Bible Study Magazine confesses "we believe in the catholic church." I'm glad Logos does! No one seems to get too excited about that.
It has been written that no one is so blind as the one "who will not see."
Others have posted to try to calm down this thread! Good posts! *smile* To no avail. I do not understand why some of you are so hostile and so vehement. I truly do not. May God forgive you.
I wish I had never posted in the first place. I wish that - certainly! - I never posted the way I did. Sorry that I can be so naive sometimes.
Logos Bible Software is vital in my life. I thank God for Bob Pritchett, his family, and the whole Logos Team. I truly do! And! I often pray for Logos' success because Satan is confounded when the Holy Spirit of God works through the Word of God. And! People are brought to Jesus through positive living and sharing.
The Peace of the Lord be with you Always! And Joy in the Lord Always!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Brad Fry said:
It was the inclusion of why everyone fits under the umbrella of "Catholic", including the "schismatics" that I believe many bridled at. I'll have to admit that my brow furrowed most when MJ expressed her disbelief that people could get so worked up about this because she "was raised as a Campbellite and even in that framework - Restoration "Protestant" can't see the problem nor imagine that my Church of Christ (with music think Standard Publishing flavor) pastor grandpa / elder dad could find a problem." Campbellite? "Even in that framework"? Hardly the words of peacemaking.
MJ is probably the least criticizing and most peacemaking member of these forums, and you completely misunderstand her. She wrote a post a very long time ago, on another thread, and in a completely different context, simply describing the different ways in which the word "catholic" is being used. She never even said whether she agreed with those uses, only that they de facto exist. She was simply acting like a dictionary, and, as far as I can remember, no one found it the least bit objectionable at the time.
Then, suddenly, a long long time afterwards, and completely out of the original context, Milford choose to quote her in a new thread, and suddenly she finds herself under attack for saying things she never said, and certainly never meant. All she said was that the word "catholic" is, de facto, sometimes used to include schismatics but not heretics. She didn't actually use the word in that sense, she never even said whether she agreed with that use, and she certainly never defined the word "schismatics", or labelled anyone or any group as schismatics. Pretty obviously, if the person using the word in this sense is Orthodox, the "schismatics" are going to be the Catholics! So what is she attacked for? Would you attack a dictionary for stating the simple fact that a word is being used in a certain way? (The original objector, on the other hand, did say that protestants "refuse to embrace apostasy". That, to me, does sound very much like accusing Catholics and the Catholic Church for apostasy, which, to the best of my knowledge, is far worse than schism.)
And then something even more weird happens: while she is busy trying to defend herself against false accusations of having called people schismatics -- i e she is trying to prove that she is not excluding people -- then a new person turns up who is instead annoyed for being included. But he never states clearly what he is angry for, just that he is angry. And neither does the person following. Is it surprising, then, that MJ -- who had already said clearly that her terms only included those who wanted to be included (and who repeated that several times) -- had trouble grasping that she was being attacked from two opposite directions at the same time? And again the accusation is false: MJ never included anyone who didn't want to be included. Milford did (presumably without intending to), but not MJ. She never said any of the things she is being accused of.
I admit a few of MJs posts do show some slight annoyance, but I also believe this is the only time ever that I have seen her show that, and considering the complete unfairness and absurdity of the accusations, I find it more than understandable. Normally she follows the guidelines pretty strictly, and rarely defends either herself or the Catholic Church whatever accusations are thrown at her. I suspect the only reason she did defend herself this time was precisely because she was accused of being divisive, which is the last thing she is or wants to be regarded as.
Since I entered these forums half a year ago I have seen a large number of very inflammatory, and generally completely false, accusations against Catholics and the Catholic Church. Since the Catholics here tend to follow the guidelines they are almost never answered, and I cannot remember ever having seen anything even remotely equal in the other direction (in fact, I cannot really remember seeing anything at all in the other direction, except tongue in cheek). It is amazing to me how people who don't seem to have any inhibitions whatsoever against hurling lies and insults over Catholics, nevertheless themselves are so thin-skinned that they get offended even by things that haven't been said.
(Hope I haven't misrepresented you, MJ, or made it worse for you, but I couldn't shut up any more.)
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Thank you, fgh
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Thank you, fgh
I thank you also, fgh! *smile*
MJ! I sincerely apologise to you for my involving you in any way. I am sorry indeed!
I have admiration and respect for you, MJ; and I would not hurt nor harm you in any way.
Peace to you!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Milford Charles Murray said:
I wish I had never posted in the first place. I wish that - certainly! - I never posted the way I did. Sorry that I can be so naive sometimes.
I am glad you posted, Milford. I am not happy with all subsequent posts but I appreciate the link you gave and the spirit of unity you espoused. No need to apologize for how others reacted. We are not responsible for others words. The Lord will only hold us accountable for our own. Please continue to be a *Peacemaker* and use your gift for spreading joy among the saints. (I know that sounds impossible in light of this thread.)
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Milford Charles Murray said:
Do you really understand all my motives.
Obviously I can not know your thoughts.
Matt 7:20
Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
I just attempted to say that I did not suspect you of intentionally being divisive. Forgive my poor choice of words.
K.J. said:I totally understand Milford's motives. I never believed that his motives were divisive.
I have attempted to explain my point of view. It seems that there are 2 camps...Those who agree need no further explanation. Those who will never agree will resist any and all explanation, so I will respect your wishes and digress.
God Bless
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Milford Charles Murray said:
I wish I had never posted in the first place. I wish that - certainly! - I never posted the way I did. Sorry that I can be so naive sometimes.
Milford, peace to you brother. Please, do not feel any regret that you posted, what you posted and the way you posted it. Unintentionally you just put a mirror in front of all of us. That is all. Who has eyes can see.
It is so refreshing to see your attitude and heart on these forums. Please continue in a good work and let God bless you with all His blessing. I appreciate you very much for the love of Christ expressed in all your posts, regardless of what others write. Thank you again.
Shalom
Bohuslav
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fgh said:
(Hope I haven't misrepresented you, MJ, or made it worse for you, but I couldn't shut up any more.)
Excellent summary of all what happened in this thread. Thank you fgh. [Y]
Bohuslav
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Milford Charles Murray said:
When I posted the Sistine Chapel website, all I wanted to do is share with my brothers and sisters.…
And I thank you for that. I am a Biblical Fundamentalist Baptist, and I still enjoyed the view.
Milford Charles Murray said:I wish I had never posted in the first place.
But I am glad you did. As Matthew said above; you are not responsible for the rudeness and arrogance of others.
I always appreciate your kind and gentle spirit. Don't withdraw because others… Well, I won't finish that sentence.
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Jack Caviness said:
As Matthew said above; you are not responsible for the rudeness and arrogance of others.
Do you Really want to kick this dead horse? Matthew didn't use the words "Rudeness and Arrogance," You did.!
Jack Caviness said:Don't withdraw because others… Well, I won't finish that sentence.
I can see no reason for stopping mid-sentence, other than to supply a "fill-in-the-blanks" to insight more unrest. Not gonna finish it?...Why not delete it?
Rom 2:1
"Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things."
Seems strange that after I Digress, The only ones throwing gas on the fire have a star by their name. [8-)]
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K.J. said:
Do you Really want to kick this dead horse?
Nope. Cowboys only use spurs on live ones. [:)] I live in Oklahoma, so I know 'bout Cowboys.
K.J. said:Matthew didn't use the words "Rudeness and Arrogance," You did.!
See how easy it is to read into a post something that is just not there? Cut everyone some slack.
K.J. said:Seems strange that after I Digress, The only ones throwing gas on the fire have a star by their name.
Digress comes from the Latin........ like the Vulgate, Mass, and one-third of the English language. So I don't see any problem enjoying the artwork of the Sistine Chapel either. You can digress if you wish.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Chris Thompson said:K.J. said:
The only ones throwing gas on the fire have a star by their name.
What does the star signify. Do the ones with stars have special rights and privileges? Is there information on the site laying out the responsibilities/guidelines for those with stars?
Chris,
This thread may help which I started when I first saw MVP'shttp://community.logos.com/forums/p/6796/53508.aspx#53508
EDIT: And if you select the star under the name you will get this page : http://community.logos.com/user/Members.aspx?search=1&r=82cdfc90-c0bd-4207-bf1e-13b8938a9601
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Joan Korte said:
This thread may help which I started when I first saw MVP'shttp://community.logos.com/forums/p/6796/53508.aspx#53508
EDIT: And if you select the star under the name you will get this page : http://community.logos.com/user/Members.aspx?search=1&r=82cdfc90-c0bd-4207-bf1e-13b8938a9601
Enlightening, Thanks
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K.J. said:
Seems strange that after I Digress, The only ones throwing gas on the fire have a star by their name.
[^o)] HHHMMMmmm~~~ [^o)]
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Silent Sam said:K.J. said:
Seems strange that after I Digress, The only ones throwing gas on the fire have a star by their name.
HHHMMMmmm~~~ Sam, I gotta say sometimes your silence is just deafening.
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Phil Gons
Posted: Tue, Jan 19 2010 11:23 AM
| LockedPlease
abide by the following guidelines as you interact on our forums.- Please keep your discussions focused on
Logos Bible Software: our software, products, websites, company, tools, etc. - Please do not discuss or debate biblical,
theological, or other controversial topics. Use one of the many web forums intended
for these kinds of discussions. - Please treat each other with the love,
courtesy, respect, and kindness that you would if you were sitting in your
living room together. - Please do not use our forums to
- sell or give away anything or link to anything you’re selling or giving away—including Logos products
- promote
or link to competitors - point
people to other places that sell Logos-compatible products - advertise
yourself, your business, your ministry, your website, etc. (a tasteful link in
your forum signature is acceptable) - post Logos Coupon Codes. If you are aware of a special promotion
Logos is running online, you are welcome to link directly to the
promotion.
- Please search before posting. It’s
likely that someone has already asked your question. - Please help others follow these
guidelines. If the problems continue after you’ve given a gentle reminder of
these expectations, please click “Report Abuse” under “More” or send an email
to forums@logos.com.
Thank
you for your cooperation. Enjoy discussing and learning about Logos Bible
Software.Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
0 - Please keep your discussions focused on
-
HHHMMMmmm~~~ 0
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Chris Thompson said:K.J. said:
The only ones throwing gas on the fire have a star by their name.
What does the star signify. Do the ones with stars have special rights and privileges? Is there information on the site laying out the responsibilities/guidelines for those with stars?
[Y] Great Questions Edit: And great answers
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Ted Hans said:
Please abide by the following guidelines as you interact on our forums.
- Please keep your discussions focused on Logos Bible Software: our software, products, websites, company, tools, etc.
Thank you for your cooperation. Enjoy discussing and learning about Logos Bible Software.
[Y]
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Joan Korte said:Silent Sam said:K.J. said:
Seems strange that after I Digress, The only ones throwing gas on the fire have a star by their name.
HHHMMMmmm~~~ Sam, I gotta say sometimes your silence is just deafening.
[:#] [Y] [:#]
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Joan Korte said:Silent Sam said:K.J. said:
Seems strange that after I Digress, The only ones throwing gas on the fire have a star by their name.
HHHMMMmmm~~~ Sam, I gotta say sometimes your silence is just deafening.
I think it's called the "Humming Chorus."
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:Joan Korte said:Silent Sam said:K.J. said:
Seems strange that after I Digress, The only ones throwing gas on the fire have a star by their name.
HHHMMMmmm~~~ Sam, I gotta say sometimes your silence is just deafening.
[Y] I think it's called the "Humming Chorus" [Y]
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Jack Caviness said:
As Matthew said above; you are not responsible for the rudeness and arrogance of others.
OK, Matthew. I will attempt to do so. I want to believe that the misrepresentation of what you said was unintentional. It is most painful when we are faced with the possibility that one of our mentors, (In this case an MVP) has purposely distorted truth...and has failed to employ Discretion.Matthew C Jones said:K.J. said:Matthew didn't use the words "Rudeness and Arrogance," You did.!
See how easy it is to read into a post something that is just not there? Cut everyone some slack.
Is Discretion also a Latin word?
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"Discretion" is Old English. [:)]
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K.J. said:
Is Discretion also a Latin word?
Of course
discretio, -onis. "power of distinguishing, discernment."
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Ted Hans said:
Phil Gons
Posted: Tue, Jan 19 2010 11:23 AM
| LockedPlease
abide by the following guidelines as you interact on our forums.- Please keep your discussions focused on
Logos Bible Software: our software, products, websites, company, tools, etc. - Please do not discuss or debate biblical,
theological, or other controversial topics. Use one of the many web forums intended
for these kinds of discussions. - Please treat each other with the love,
courtesy, respect, and kindness that you would if you were sitting in your
living room together. - Please do not use our forums to
- sell or give away anything or link to anything you’re selling or giving away—including Logos products
- promote
or link to competitors - point
people to other places that sell Logos-compatible products - advertise
yourself, your business, your ministry, your website, etc. (a tasteful link in
your forum signature is acceptable) - post Logos Coupon Codes. If you are aware of a special promotion
Logos is running online, you are welcome to link directly to the
promotion.
- Please search before posting. It’s
likely that someone has already asked your question. - Please help others follow these
guidelines. If the problems continue after you’ve given a gentle reminder of
these expectations, please click “Report Abuse” under “More” or send an email
to forums@logos.com.
Thank
you for your cooperation. Enjoy discussing and learning about Logos Bible
Software.Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
0 - Please keep your discussions focused on
-
[Y]
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[:#]K.J. said:Jack Caviness said:As Matthew said above; you are not responsible for the rudeness and arrogance of others.
OK, Matthew. I will attempt to do so. I want to believe that the misrepresentation of what you said was unintentional. It is most painful when we are faced with the possibility that one of our mentors, (In this case an MVP) has purposely distorted truth...and has failed to employ Discretion.Matthew C Jones said:K.J. said:Matthew didn't use the words "Rudeness and Arrogance," You did.!
See how easy it is to read into a post something that is just not there? Cut everyone some slack.
Is Discretion also a Latin word?
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K.J. said:Jack Caviness said:
As Matthew said above; you are not responsible for the rudeness and arrogance of others.
OK, Matthew. I will attempt to do so. I want to believe that the misrepresentation of what you said was unintentional. It is most painful when we are faced with the possibility that one of our mentors, (In this case an MVP) has purposely distorted truth...and has failed to employ Discretion.Matthew C Jones said:K.J. said:Matthew didn't use the words "Rudeness and Arrogance," You did.!
See how easy it is to read into a post something that is just not there? Cut everyone some slack.
Is Discretion also a Latin word?My intention was to tell Milford that he was not responsible for the reactions of others to his original post, as Matthew had already said. Unfortunately, I injected extra words into my statement and implied stated that Matthew had said something that he had not said. I did not intentionally misrepresent him, but it was the result of carelessness—even stupidity. For that, I apologize. I also should not have characterized the responses to Milford as arrogant and rude. I do apologize and promise to use more discretion in the future.
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Jack Caviness said:
I do apologize and promise to use more discretion in the future.
Likewise, I regret any offense that was taken as a result of my comments. My convictions have not changed. I will, However, ponder a bit longer before hurling an unstoppable force at an immovable object. [:)]
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K.J. said:
My convictions have not changed. I will, However, ponder a bit longer before hurling an unstoppable force at an immovable object.
Almost all of us would benefit from such a resolution.
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[:#]
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Silent Sam is my Hero. His Discretion is Exemplary. Sam For Prez !!!
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[^o)] HHHMMMmmm~~~ [^o)]
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Precisely !
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Great Discussion ! I'm gonna like this Forum !
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George Somsel said:
I would encourage Logos to do its own translation of the Quran in a very faithful version -- assiduously avoiding softening the harsh parts. This would make clear to all the insidious nature of Islam. Its prophet is a false prophet, a prophet of Satan himself, and a paedophile. Its god is not the God of the bible but Satan himself since God would not countenance that set forth in the Quran. Islam is interested in submission (much like the Obama regime), not in conviction. Remember: "He who is convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."
George,
I know of a man who is doing a translation like this that is nearly complete. He is one of the top-ranking English speakers of Arabic in America who is actively involved in bringing the gospel to Muslims. Perhaps he would be interested in allowing Logos to publish his translation when it is finished. If you're interested, talk to Logos about this and let me know. I can pass the word on to him if Logos is interested.
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[^o)] HHHMMMmmm~~~ [^o)]
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