How do I get "information" tool to work as expected?

I like using the information tool but have been having several frustrations. I'm not sure if it is just that the tool is not configured the best yet - or if it is the way I have things set up on my system.

Here is a random example of how things work for me when I get information on the word "gave" in Titus 2:14.

Some of the problems are:

1. I consistently get information for other words other than the one I mouse over or click on.

2. The information tool is not following my preferred resources order. ESL is near the end of my preferred resources yet seems to often show up first (and often for the wrong word). It is not only ESL that gives me wrong information though - the majority of the time I get at least one "article" that is wrong.

3. I would like to just have much less information actually - I would be quite happy to have just the Louw Nida 57.71 info, rather than all the others (especially the first two articles).

Is there a way for me to fine tune things using preferred resources by using the advanced settings maybe?

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TCBlack

Thanks for asking the question I was getting ready to ask. [:)]

Now I await the answer too.

Jacob Hantla

I've noticed intermittent weird behavior too especially related to original language.

Thomas B.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/23227#Comment_23227

Frankly, it is this kind of (mis)behaviour that makes me wonder whether L4 is really ready for prime time. I consider this functionality bread and butter for a bible software... yes, there will be continual updates after the release, but being a software developer myself I immediately associate these types of problems with software pushed out of the door too quickly.

But then, I eagerly look forward for L4 to be available for the masses to enjoy, because it is just fantastic!!

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/23431#Comment_23431

I think there are a couple of issues here.

First, ESL is the Enhanced Strong's Lexicon; in 4.0 we're replacing this book, which is a version of Strong's Lexicon "enhanced" by adding KJV translations of the terms with frequency counts, with a clean, straight edition of the Strong's Lexicon. The older ESL was one of our very first books (15 years ago!) and it incorrectly (according to our current design principles) has the English translations as headwords. So it reports that Hebrew article because it's serving as your highest ranked English dictionary with a headword for "gave".

We'll be correcting this resource (did you do the crossgrade download yet? the correction may be done already), and it won't even be shipping as part of new 4.0 collections.

The remaining problems relate to the fact that when you're in a Bible with a reverse interlinear, there is a whole stack of text at one cursor position. So you're looking at the best hit for each of multiple data types. I not sure if the order in which we look things up is the same order as the "stack" in the reverse interlinear, but I think it is. So you're getting something based on the lemma, something based on the LN number, etc.

I agree that we need to make this clearer, and we probably do need to offer some advanced customization since everyone has different needs here.

I hope you'll see better performance after the updated books are downloaded, and we'll tweak it and look into ways to let you choose which of the items gets looked up.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/23480#Comment_23480

Bob,

Some form of this explanation needs to be in the help file under the "information" tool entry.

That explained everything.

Greg Gray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/23480#Comment_23480

[quote]I think there are a couple of issues here.

I will add an English dictionary. I have ESL at the bottom of my list of preferred resources - if adding an English dictionary doesn't help I'll remove ESL completely.

[quote]We'll be correcting this resource (did you do the crossgrade download yet? the correction may be done already), and it won't even be shipping as part of new 4.0 collections.

I did the cross grade (thanks by the way:-), it didn't change this problem.

[quote]The remaining problems relate to the fact that when you're in a Bible with a reverse interlinear, there is a whole stack of text at one cursor position. So you're looking at the best hit for each of multiple data types. I not sure if the order in which we look things up is the same order as the "stack" in the reverse interlinear, but I think it is. So you're getting something based on the lemma, something based on the LN number, etc.

This makes sense - I tried turning off strong's in the interlinear view hoping it would stop it from showing up in the information window - but no luck.

[quote] I agree that we need to make this clearer, and we probably do need to offer some advanced customization since everyone has different needs here.

I hope you'll see better performance after the updated books are downloaded, and we'll tweak it and look into ways to let you choose which of the items gets looked up.

To me this is key - for example I would never want an English definition of the word - also I never want to see the cross references that always show up.

If the information window followed the format of the Bible explorer tool - I think it would be a big help.

For example, here is a screen shot of the explorer:

If in place of people place and thing there was say "English Dictionary"

In place of Media was Lemma.

In place of My Content was Louw Nida

Then you could expand only the info you want.

A couple of Ideas on the customization:

If Logos 4 remembered the settings of which headings were expanded, then if I never expanded the English dictionary heading - I would never get that information.

So if All I wanted was Lemma, then I would only have that heading expanded, and Logos 4 would remember this preference for each word I hover over.

Also, a very important thing in my books is that the search only takes place if I expand the heading. Right now I have to wait 10 seconds for every word I hover over to get the information on my screen. in V3 it takes less than a second. Obviously V4 is doing a lot more work, getting stuff I don't want it to. So if it was set up to only search for the information for the expanded headings only, things would be much quicker. ( If I expand an other heading I don't mind waiting one second for the information to come up, but 10 seconds per word is to high in my books)

This is true of Bible explorer as well. If V4 would remember my settings for expanded headings and only do the search for what I have expanded, it would be a much more effective and efficient tool.

Also of significance - it would be very good for both the information tool and the Bible explorer tool, to be able to change the order of the headings. So I could set the information in the order I want to see it.

The way I would like to see this accomplished (just one opinion) is like this:

I expand the headings I want to see. Lets say in information view I have Lemma expanded, and none others - the next time I use the information tool on a word in my interlinear bible, Lemma will be at the top of the list. If every once and a while I expand Louw Nida than that would become second. If I never or rarely use cross reference then that would stay last. In this way the settings set themself based on my usage. I just use the software it sets the preference based on my patterns. This would fit the mentality of the software (no fuss upgrading, etc.) and would make it very useful to new users.

This would be the same for Bible explorer (for example I want the commentaries to be listed first, but now they are set to show up last. I have to wait 18 seconds for the explorer to show the commentaries because it is last in priority (if I do a passage guide search I have the info in 8 seconds because it it higher in priority).

So to some up, it would be great if all guides, and tools followed the same guidelines and settings as follows:

1. Program remembers whether you expand or keep contracted each heading. (this already happens in passage guides, explorer tool, but does not have this in the information tool (no headings yet:-) nor in the cited by tool.

2. V4 remembers which headings you expand most often and stacks them in the appropriate order. (in all tools)

3. V4 only searches for the information in the expanded headings.

#3 is extremely important in my opinion to the reception of this software. I will post some search comparison in another post.

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/23516#Comment_23516

These are good suggestions.

One design concern we'll have to figure out: the Information panel is supposed to work for almost anything -- not just Bibles. That's why it does things like look up the surface word -- there's not much else to do when you're reading a book of English text with no underlying Greek text to present info on. Maybe we need to have separate Bible/non-Bible behavior in this panel... or would you rather it was just blank when you are in a non-Bible? (I kind of like how it looks up words and footnotes, etc. Sometimes I can use the definition.)

Greg Gray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/23516#Comment_23516

Passage guide for Gen 1 1

V3 = 16 seconds

V4 = 35

exegetical guide

V3 = 11 seconds

V4 = 25 seconds

information (used with reverse interlinear while
mousing over words)

V3 = almost instant (Information accurate and
helpful)

V4 = apr. 10 seconds (information is mostly
unhelpful and often inaccurate)

Library search for Gen 1 1

V3 = 180 seconds with 232802 hits I can quickly
see all the hits and know what is relivant right away because of how well it is
presented on my screen

V4 = apr. 22 seconds per page (I had 14 pages of
results for a total of 308 seconds) The information is far less clear – I
find myself unsure of even where to look and I no longer search my library like
I did all the time in V3) (I also hate having to go through pages!)

Opening home page (with roughly the same settings
in V3 and V4)

V3 = 11 seconds – Simple very productive - I
instantly know what the software does and how to use it.

V4 = 45 seconds – looks great but is very
unhelpful (even confusing and distracting at first, but I have adjusted) (I
currently have it turned off so I will not see the information Logos wants me to
see)

Most all of this (except home page issues) would be different I think if #3 from my list above was implemented.

Logos staff: please don't take my resent posts as being negative - I am really getting into using V4. I just would like it to be simple and efficient - and I am also very nervous how people upgrading are going to react if some of these things ar smoothed out quickly.

They are expecting this version to be faster and simpler - and it currently is much slower and although simple to use (great interface!) the information is definitely not easy to sift through.

I have no question the Logos team will address these things in a great way - but first impressions tend to stick - and with an immanent release I'm a little nervous - and I'm just a tester.

Greg Gray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/23523#Comment_23523

These are good suggestions.

One design concern we'll have to figure out: the Information panel is supposed to work for almost anything -- not just Bibles. That's why it does things like look up the surface word -- there's not much else to do when you're reading a book of English text with no underlying Greek text to present info on. Maybe we need to have separate Bible/non-Bible behavior in this panel... or would you rather it was just blank when you are in a non-Bible? (I kind of like how it looks up words and footnotes, etc. Sometimes I can use the definition.)

I would prefer the Bible/non-bible approach. I too like having the dictionary as I read through a book instantly there in the information window.

Chris Elford

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/23523#Comment_23523

These are good suggestions.

One design concern we'll have to figure out: the Information panel is supposed to work for almost anything -- not just Bibles. That's why it does things like look up the surface word -- there's not much else to do when you're reading a book of English text with no underlying Greek text to present info on. Maybe we need to have separate Bible/non-Bible behavior in this panel... or would you rather it was just blank when you are in a non-Bible? (I kind of like how it looks up words and footnotes, etc. Sometimes I can use the definition.)

Bob,

First, again let me say how great it is to interact with the CEO directly. Second, again let me say how great it is to have you respond so well and ask clarifying questions. You really show us respect and show you want to make this work the way we'll use it in the real world. Third, thanks for the clear explanation of what is going on here.

These suggestions are really good and would make the Information tool much better.

I like the idea of separate Bible/non-Bible behavior. When I'm reading an article with new terminology or terminology I haven't used in a while (at my age that could be quite a while) it is helpful to have definitions. But in the biblical text it isn't.

Chris

Greg Gray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/23530#Comment_23530

By the way Bob - Thanks for the above info. Putting the Websters dictionary in a higher priority than ESL got rid of a lot of the missinfo I was struggling with. I appreciate all of the work you and the team are putting in on this.

Greg Gray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/23533#Comment_23533

[quote]So to some up, it would be great if all guides, and tools followed the same guidelines and settings as follows:

2. V4 remembers which headings you expand most often and stacks them in the appropriate order. (in all tools)

3. V4 only searches for the information in the expanded headings.

I just tried the latest update and #3 is already being implemented in the passage guide. This improved performance considerably. I dropped 20 seconds off my search time making it on par with version 3.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/23533#Comment_23533

Putting the Websters dictionary in a higher priority than ESL got rid of a lot of the missinfo I was struggling with.

Greg,

I place a few Bible Dictionary before a pure English Dictionary like Websters, and if you got the latest RC/cross-grade download then ESL won't function as an English dictionary!

BTW I like your suggestions for the Information tool.

Harry Hahne

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/23480#Comment_23480

I really want to be able to turn off the automatic display of information. When I want information on a word, I can click on it and choose Display Information. Quite apart from the erratic behavior, I want the information to stay up, while I move the mouse elsewhere.

I think one reason it is so flaky is that it is getting commands to display information every time your mouse brushes against a word. So it may be displaying information for words you never intended to hear about. Perhaps there out to be a 1/2 second or 1 second delay for the automatic information display, so you really see the word you want. But I still would want to turn this off, just like I did in earlier versions of Logos.

Greg Gray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/24045#Comment_24045

Dave,

I have everything up to date (downloaded all recourses have sr-2 installed), but my ESL is still the same (has publication date of 2002).

I have been experimenting with other Bible dictionaries on my priority list to see what I like best - well what I would like best is not to have any English dictionary displayed:-) but until then.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/23480#Comment_23480

ESL is the Enhanced Strong's Lexicon; in 4.0 we're replacing this book, which is a version of Strong's Lexicon "enhanced" by adding KJV translations of the terms with frequency counts, with a clean, straight edition of the Strong's Lexicon. The older ESL was one of our very first books (15 years ago!) and it incorrectly (according to our current design principles) has the English translations as headwords.

Bob, the number of Strong's dictionaries is getting confusing!

The cross-grade ESL (2009-10-28) no longer has English headwords but retains the "enhanced" content as you described ie. it is not "clean, straight"

The New Strong's Dictionary of Hebrew and Greek Words (2006-04-24) has that "clean, straight" character, except that it has English headwords. Why not remove the English headwords rather than introduce another Strong's Lexicon?

BTW I do appreciate where English headwords have been removed from lexicons like BDB, TDNT, ESL, LN, NASB Dictionaries and I note other improvements where some gained Aramaic headwords and BDB lost Latin headwords!

Greg Gray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/24056#Comment_24056

I really want to be able to turn off the automatic display of information. When I want information on a word, I can click on it and choose Display Information. Quite apart from the erratic behavior, I want the information to stay up, while I move the mouse elsewhere.

I think one reason it is so flaky is that it is getting commands to display information every time your mouse brushes against a word. So it may be displaying information for words you never intended to hear about. Perhaps there out to be a 1/2 second or 1 second delay for the automatic information display, so you really see the word you want. But I still would want to turn this off, just like I did in earlier versions of Logos.

I agree.

I think the problem is as Bob made mention to above - that there is so much information to be displayed when using interlinears. This creates two issues:

1. The information is slow to come up (more time for the mouse to wander)

2. It is much more likely that we are going to want to move our mouse over to get some of the information that is brought up and if our timing on the ctrl key is slightly off we have lost it.

On everything else (other than bibles with Interlinears) I like the current instant display of Information, but on Bibles with Interlinears I would prefer what you suggested: an option to display information only when a word is clicked on.

Greg Gray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/24061#Comment_24061

The cross-grade ESL (2009-10-28) no longer has English headwords but retains the "enhanced" content as you described ie. it is not "clean, straight"

The New Strong's Dictionary of Hebrew and Greek Words (2006-04-24) has that "clean, straight" character, except that it has English headwords. Why not remove the English headwords rather than introduce another Strong's Lexicon?

Dave, (or anyone else), is the new ESL "A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible"? In my library it has a 2009 date. This is the only new Strong's resource I have received.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/24065#Comment_24065

Bob can confirm the intention, but it is a new Logos resource which I received in addition to an ESL without English headwords!

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