It's time to start developing Logos 5
Comments
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MJ. Smith said:Rather than just verse/chapter/book limits on searches one can limit by clause, sentence and paragraph.
Help me to understand how limiting a search by clause, sentence or paragraph works (I don't have any of these other products). Could you give an example of when one would need to find something in such a small unit that couldn't be seen already by the naked eye? I'm guessing this might be of use in morph searches by people who don't know the original languages. E.g., "find the verbs in this sentence" (in a Greek Bible search). Anything else? Thanks!
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Rosie Perera said:MJ. Smith said:Rather than just verse/chapter/book limits on searches one can limit by clause, sentence and paragraph.
Help me to understand how limiting a search by clause, sentence or paragraph works (I don't have any of these other products). Could you give an example of when one would need to find something in such a small unit that couldn't be seen already by the naked eye? I'm guessing this might be of use in morph searches by people who don't know the original languages. E.g., "find the verbs in this sentence" (in a Greek Bible search). Anything else? Thanks!
Never mind. I just answered my own question after seeing your post on another thread. It would useful be for Boolean searches: find where word A and word B occur together in the same clause, sentence, or paragraph.
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Rosie Perera said:
Help me to understand how limiting a search by clause, sentence or paragraph works
This is stepping outside my expertise but my assumption would be to find stylistic features to determine authorship, period, source ..i.e. the text analysis stuff. . My recent attempt to find direct objects that shared a root with the verb would be an example where one would want the search limited to a single clause without regard to versification. In an ideal world, I would use a sentence as my default unit - I literally never do anything in which chapter or verse are anything other than location references which may or may not correspond to the sentences I'm studying.
Note: the syntax searches do allow me to limit to a clause or a sentence.
I know why Logos does not include the textual analytics. Until they offer more manuscripts in more original languages, it's a reasonable decision.. There are a number of free or nearly free academic research programs available for the few Logos users who would use them.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Mark Barnes said:
I wasn't disagreeing with your decision, Rick
, just offering a further perspective.I'm truly sorry for the misunderstanding Mark.
<Rick puts foot in mouth once again [:$] >
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L4 is very slow and very fast at the same time. It does some wonderful things very fast, but the UI is very slow. I have never seen a slower UI. Logos needs to correct this problem. If it means nolonger using WPF, so be it.
You can add my name to list of people who thinks L4 needs to stop using WPF.
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Bob Pritchett said:
Well, we're not going to throw it away and start over soon. I know that for sure. :-)
We do, of course, do that -- Logos 4 is the third ground up re-write after the first platform -- but it'll be years before we do it again.
If you want lean and fast, like some of our competitors who have simple search engines, small libraries, and don't try to do fancy stuff with reports and reverse interlinears, then http://biblia.com is probably an even better solution. You don't even have to install software, and there's a large library.
We'll also be investing more in support for mobile devices, which we believe will be the platform of choice for many users when they don't need a powerful tool on a desktop machine.
L5 doesn't need to be a ground-up rewrite, but you do need to stop using WPF. Others have stated that this is likely the only program that uses WPF. I do not know if this is true or not, but if WPF is not used that often, then the question is why Logos used WPF? There is a reason why other companys are not using WPF, and it looks like they know something that Logos didn't know when this decision was made.0 -
Peter Covert said:
L5 doesn't need to be a ground-up rewrite, but you do need to stop using WPF. Others have stated that this is likely the only program that uses WPF. I do not know if this is true or not, but if WPF is not used that often, then the question is why Logos used WPF? There is a reason why other companys are not using WPF, and it looks like they know something that Logos didn't know when this decision was made.Logos tends to be an early adopter of new technology. I remember when they took time off from development to have their entire dev team (perhaps there were only two or three of them at the time) learn C++ and then rewrite the entire program in C++ instead of C. This was back in the early 90's sometime, before my team at Microsoft had switched over to doing any C++ development at all and I hadn't even learned it yet.
Being an early adopter can bite you in the foot, especially when it's a high-investment adoption. If you adopt something that ends up having major flaws or doesn't end up being adopted as an industry-wide standard, you might be stuck with it for some time before you can recover from your bad decision. However the payoff if you were an early adopter of something that turns out to be a world-changing standard can be exceedingly great. So it's a gamble. (EDIT: I spent my first four years at Microsoft working on something that was a big gamble: Microsoft Word for Windows. Was this new platform -- Windows -- which hadn't even shipped yet when I first started there -- going to "take off"? Nobody knew at the time. It was buggy as all get-out, and it was hard to develop on top of a moving target. But Word eventually became the #1 word-processor in the world, so it was a gamble worth taking. [:)])
I would suggest that rather than the other companies knowing something that Logos didn't know, they all took a "wait and see" posture, and that turned out to have been the better business decision in this case. But if everyone takes a "wait and see" attitude all the time, then there is never any new progress made. There have to be some risk-takers out there. Logos has defined itself as one of them. We can only pray that it works out better for them in future opportunities.
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Rosie Perera said:
Logos tends to be an early adopter of new technology.
In fairness to Logos, given the Microsoft information known when Logos 4 architecture was being designed, WPF was a reasonable decision. Current information leads one to be suspicious of its future. If Logos 4 has separated its presentation layer, they will be able rewrite the problematic part when the best choice for the future is clearer.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Rosie Perera said:
Logos tends to be an early adopter of new technology.
In fairness to Logos, given the Microsoft information known when Logos 4 architecture was being designed, WPF was a reasonable decision. Current information leads one to be suspicious of its future. If Logos 4 has separated its presentation layer, they will be able rewrite the problematic part when the best choice for the future is clearer.
Very true, but once you found out that the decision that has been made was not a good one, then you need to correct the decision as soon as you can.
I HOPE the reason why we have not seen a lot of new items in the beta cycle comes from the fact that Logos is separating their presentation layer so that they can remove their dependency on WPF.
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tom collinge said:MJ. Smith said:Rosie Perera said:
Logos tends to be an early adopter of new technology.
In fairness to Logos, given the Microsoft information known when Logos 4 architecture was being designed, WPF was a reasonable decision. Current information leads one to be suspicious of its future. If Logos 4 has separated its presentation layer, they will be able rewrite the problematic part when the best choice for the future is clearer.
Very true, but once you found out that the decision that has been made was not a good one, then you need to correct the decision as soon as you can.
I HOPE the reason why we have not seen a lot of new items in the beta cycle comes from the fact that Logos is separating their presentation layer so that they can remove their dependency on WPF.
They had to live with their poor decision to be dependent on Internet Explorer as a display engine in Logos 3 for quite a while. Part of the reason for the rewrite to Logos 4 was to remove that dependency because it kept shooting them in the foot. Every time IE would release a new version, it might potentially break Logos. They thought (mistakenly) that since the WPF libraries would be linked in with the releases of Logos, they would have full control over that dependency -- they wouldn't risk users upgrading to a new version of something that would then break Logos.
It's not all that easy to disentangle code from a presentation layer, I imagine. I think the main reason we haven't seen much yet in the current beta cycle is that they have been doing stuff under the hood that will enable the surprise release of PBB for us -- fully functional from the get-go. I'm hoping it's going to be in Beta 3 tomorrow! [:)]
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Rosie Perera said:
It's not all that easy to disentangle code from a presentation layer, I imagine.
Three layer design - presentation, processing and data i/O has been standard for end-users apps for more than a decade. Depending on platform, database and language constraints one may have to deviate from the standard. I've only developed two Microsoft based end-user apps and lived to regret both of them so I won't claim expertise for a Logos style app.
I am also not certain that it is yet clear what direction Microsoft is going and where Logos should go.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I am also not certain that it is yet clear what direction Microsoft is going and where Logos should go.
Microsoft's http://windowsclient.net/ web site includes 28 Oct 2010 link Present and Future of WPF that mentions Web Matrix (launched at CodeMash 2011) along with some Guidance:
Speaking of guidance, I'm often asked for guidance with how to
choose between WPF and Silverlight. Here's what we recommend when
starting a new application:- If you're just starting out, and there's a question as to which
technology to choose (Silverlight or WPF) then start with
Silverlight. It is generally easier to move up to WPF from
Silverlight than it is to move the other way. Silverlight has a
smaller API, and is therefore generally considered easier to
learn. - If you need a desktop application with only basic system
integration, consider building a Silverlight Out-of-Browser
application. Silverlight 4 Trusted Applications with IDispatch
support provide access to many system resources previously
unavailable to web technologies. - If you need deep system integration, excellent multi-touch
support, device access, local resources, and all the other things
that go with a solid desktop application, then consider moving up
to WPF. - If you're a C++ developer, you can choose to go with C++ and
MFC, or use C++ with WPF on the front end, like the Expression team
did.
No matter what you chose (WPF, Silverlight, Native), rest
assured that you'll be supported in the years to come with enhanced
capabilities and our awesome programming tools.* * *
Earlier this month, a blog showed WPF over websockets => http://www.amazedsaint.com/2011/04/wpf-over-web-sockets-how-to-pump-wpf.html
Also noticed Announcing the Silverlight 5 Beta Release and the Silverlight.net Redesign
and Silverlight Connections 2011 Moving from Windows Forms to Silverlight and WPF Presentation
Keep Smiling [:)]
0 - If you're just starting out, and there's a question as to which
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We all seem to be forgetting that the 'best' method to use is not the method which in an abstract setting gives the greatest performance. There are a gazillion considerations to take on board, principally:
- Cost: WPF is free. Developing an in-house solution is certainly not.
- Time: WPF was available. An in-house solution was not.
- Future: WPF (in theory at least) will be upgraded over time. An in-house solution will constantly need programmer-intensive updates.
- Portability: New hires can be expected to understand WPF. They would have to be trained on an in-house solution.
In other words, if Logos wasn't using WPF, it would be more expensive, have less features and would be developed more slowly. For that reason, I support its adoption, even if in an abstract test there are 'better' solutions out there.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
We all seem to be forgetting that the 'best' method to use is not the method which in an abstract setting gives the greatest performance. There are a gazillion considerations to take on board, principally:
- Cost: WPF is free. Developing an in-house solution is certainly not.
- Time: WPF was available. An in-house solution was not.
- Future: WPF (in theory at least) will be upgraded over time. An in-house solution will constantly need programmer-intensive updates.
- Portability: New hires can be expected to understand WPF. They would have to be trained on an in-house solution.
In other words, if Logos wasn't using WPF, it would be more expensive, have less features and would be developed more slowly. For that reason, I support its adoption, even if in an abstract test there are 'better' solutions out there.
Thank you, Mark. It's helpful to see broader perspective.
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MJ. Smith said:Rosie Perera said:
It's not all that easy to disentangle code from a presentation layer, I imagine.
Three layer design - presentation, processing and data i/O has been standard for end-users apps for more than a decade. Depending on platform, database and language constraints one may have to deviate from the standard. I've only developed two Microsoft based end-user apps and lived to regret both of them so I won't claim expertise for a Logos style app.
I am also not certain that it is yet clear what direction Microsoft is going and where Logos should go.
I agree with you MJ, the future of software development is clearly unknown.
I would not be surprised if L5 will run in a browser. This is what I did when my very very very old recipe program that I purchased many many many years ago could no longer was able to perform it task. It could only search the recipes by doing a sequential search. I added so many recipes to the program that it was taking it 30 minutes to do a search. Because of this, I decided to write my own recipe program, and I used the standard three layer design for it. When I had to change the database that stored the recipes, it was not that big of a deal. FYI... It only takes two minutes now to search all of my recipes.
FYI... L4 is not the only program that is having issues with WPF. Evernote moved away from WPF for the same reasons that people are complaining about L4: blurry fonts, slow startup times, large memory footprint. Here is a link to their announcement concerning Evernote 4: http://blog.evernote.com/2010/10/26/evernote-4-for-windows-is-here/
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Mark Barnes said:
We all seem to be forgetting that the 'best' method to use is not the method which in an abstract setting gives the greatest performance. There are a gazillion considerations to take on board, principally:
- Cost: WPF is free. Developing an in-house solution is certainly not.
- Time: WPF was available. An in-house solution was not.
- Future: WPF (in theory at least) will be upgraded over time. An in-house solution will constantly need programmer-intensive updates.
- Portability: New hires can be expected to understand WPF. They would have to be trained on an in-house solution.
In other words, if Logos wasn't using WPF, it would be more expensive, have less features and would be developed more slowly. For that reason, I support its adoption, even if in an abstract test there are 'better' solutions out there.
Logos should not develop its own presentation layer!!!!!!
But WPF is not the only option to chose from. I know that there Microsoft provides the following platforms: WPF, Silverlight, forms, and Win32. There could be more.
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Dear Bill,
I agree with you. I believe all of us have already invested a lot to just "abandon" Logos 4. However, in some features Logos is apparently behind other Bible Softwares, and if I could afford, I would have a second Bible Software, particularly, Accordance. But we have a problem here, Accordance works only on Mac, although there is an emulator to run on PC. From what I see, Accordance is really faster than Logos for searches. But what really call my attention is the capability to perform 'root' search. Something that is not available in Logos. The lack of this feature blocked me in my research. I have recently posted here in the forum about this problem. My problem is simple: You see, for example, in Gen 37:9 that it says "he dreamed another dream." So if I want to find all the occurrences of the word dream (in Hebrew), whether it is a verb or a noun, I cannot do in in Logos, but as far as I have seen so far, Accordance can do it.
www.aprendalogos.com
Youtube: AprendaLogos0 -
I do not have the technological background to understand the ins and outs of what Logos needs to do or not. I am quite certain that they're not pooling their collective heads to produce a product which will irritate their users. [:)] I can live with the speed of the program and hope for better, but whatever it takes to provide crisp fonts would earn my heart-felt gratitude.
But as I said above, I've hitched my software Bible study wagon to Logos. A couple of years ago, I researched to find the best program and was convinced it was Logos. Like everyone else, I invested a significant (to me) amount of money in it, trusting that Logos would continue viable as a company and would improve the product. Frankly, I don't have the funds to willy-nilly replace the library of Logos with another program. I'm convinced that Logos will give us the best program available over the long term. It's in their best interest to do so.
Edit: Though my post appears to be a response to Nielsen's above it, it was not meant to be. I had started the post earlier this morning, but a few pastoral interruptions left it unposted. When I had an opportunity, I wrote another thought and posted and then saw that Nielsen had responded to my earlier post. In response to Nielsen's situation, though it doesn't solve the funding problem, would not BibleWorks do the search(es) desired?
Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC
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MJ. Smith said:
I am also not certain that it is yet clear what direction Microsoft is going and where Logos should go.
Microsoft's http://windowsclient.net/ web site includes 28 Oct 2010 link Present and Future of WPF that mentions Web Matrix (launched at CodeMash 2011) along with some Guidance:
Speaking of guidance, I'm often asked for guidance with how to choose between WPF and Silverlight. Here's what we recommend when starting a new application:
- If you're just starting out, and there's a question as to which technology to choose (Silverlight or WPF) then start with Silverlight. It is generally easier to move up to WPF from Silverlight than it is to move the other way. Silverlight has a smaller API, and is therefore generally considered easier to learn.
- If you need a desktop application with only basic system integration, consider building a Silverlight Out-of-Browser application. Silverlight 4 Trusted Applications with IDispatch support provide access to many system resources previously unavailable to web technologies.
- If you need deep system integration, excellent multi-touch support, device access, local resources, and all the other things that go with a solid desktop application, then consider moving up to WPF.
- If you're a C++ developer, you can choose to go with C++ and MFC, or use C++ with WPF on the front end, like the Expression team did.
No matter what you chose (WPF, Silverlight, Native), rest assured that you'll be supported in the years to come with enhanced capabilities and our awesome programming tools.
* * *
Earlier this month, a blog showed WPF over websockets => http://www.amazedsaint.com/2011/04/wpf-over-web-sockets-how-to-pump-wpf.html
Also noticed Announcing the Silverlight 5 Beta Release and the Silverlight.net Redesign
and Silverlight Connections 2011 Moving from Windows Forms to Silverlight and WPF Presentation
Keep Smiling
KS4J,
Even in these post, there are a lot of questions being asked about the future of WPF. Even in one of the post, the person stated that Silverlight has more momentum than WPF. I also would expect a statement like "how good this product is" from someone who works for MS. Why does MS have to respond like this? Could it be that companies like Evernote are moving away from WPF?
What customers say with their actions (like Evernote moving away from WPF) says a lot more about a product than what a company does with their words (like MS saying WPF is not dead).
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Nielsen Tomazini said:
However, in some features Logos is apparently behind other Bible Softwares, and if I could afford, I would have a second Bible Software, particularly, Accordance.
If this is the case, then it is probably because Logos has decided to be way ahead of the other Bible software companies in other areas. Personally, I like the set of features Logos has focused on and believe they have done an excellent job with them by-in-large. For instance, I love their print features. Granted, I do not have experience with other software so I don't know what they offer. I prefer they use their resource to get the important things right then to simply "keep up with the Joneses."
Nielsen Tomazini said:But what really call my attention is the capability to perform 'root' search.
I agree that this would be a pretty cool feature. What they do provide fits my needs, though. How far off does this come from root searching?
1.starte a Bible Word Study
2. Use "dream" as the BWS term
3. Scroll down to the "hebrew Words" section and click the middle of the word ring
I recognize some of the deficiencies in this. For instance, it only shows where those words are translated "dream" you would have to hover over each section to see how else it is translated and possible open up new word studies to get the fullest picture.
I know we'll each have a different set of features we want Logos to focus on. Personally, I like the tools they have provided. I believe when you weighvwhat Logos does have that other programs don't vs what other programs have that Logos does not, Logos will come out substantially ahead. Granted I speak from ignorance except for one other paid Bible program but I'll still stand behind the statement.
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There will always be areas where the competition does something better. The trick is to do more things better than your competitors. Because speed affects everything in L4, they (IMHO) need to address this issue very quickly.
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Nielsen Tomazini said:
But what really call my attention is the capability to perform 'root' search. Something that is not available in Logos. The lack of this feature blocked me in my research. I have recently posted here in the forum about this problem.
I agree that this is an issue that aggravates me in my study as well. If you haven't done so yet, please add your vote to my uservoice request for this feature.
Here's the URL for that entry: http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4/suggestions/682641-stem-cognate-search?ref=title
EDIT: I went to UserVoice to look at the status of this, and see that KevinB wrote this request (not me, as noted above). I still don't know why I'm thinking I did.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Richard DeRuiter said:Nielsen Tomazini said:
But what really call my attention is the capability to perform 'root' search. Something that is not available in Logos. The lack of this feature blocked me in my research. I have recently posted here in the forum about this problem.
I agree that this is an issue that aggravates me in my study as well. If you haven't done so yet, please add your vote to my uservoice request for this feature.
Here's the URL for that entry: http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4/suggestions/682641-stem-cognate-search?ref=title
I re-arranged and gave this one 3 votes. I could see the advantage of it.
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Bill Moore said:
In response to Nielsen's situation, though it doesn't solve the funding problem, would not BibleWorks do the search(es) desired?
Bill, I don't know. In fact Logos is the only Bible Software that I have ever used. I saw some videos on Accordance by accident, on YouTube. So, If BibleWorks can do 'root' search I am not aware of.
www.aprendalogos.com
Youtube: AprendaLogos0 -
Philip Spitzer said:
I agree that this would be a pretty cool feature. What they do provide fits my needs, though. How far off does this come from root searching?
1.starte a Bible Word Study
2. Use "dream" as the BWS term
3. Scroll down to the "hebrew Words" section and click the middle of the word ring
Dear Philip. The BWS does not help much because, before choosing the BWS, I have to select the lemma, so, from there I am already limited to what it is either a verb, or a noun. Thanks for your suggestion and willingness to help anyway.
www.aprendalogos.com
Youtube: AprendaLogos0 -
Richard DeRuiter said:
I agree that this is an issue that aggravates me in my study as well. If you haven't done so yet, please add your vote to my uservoice request for this feature.
Dear Richard,
Yes, I have voted already.
www.aprendalogos.com
Youtube: AprendaLogos0 -
Nielsen Tomazini said:Philip Spitzer said:
I agree that this would be a pretty cool feature. What they do provide fits my needs, though. How far off does this come from root searching?
1.starte a Bible Word Study
2. Use "dream" as the BWS term
3. Scroll down to the "hebrew Words" section and click the middle of the word ring
Dear Philip. The BWS does not help much because, before choosing the BWS, I have to select the lemma, so, from there I am already limited to what it is either a verb, or a noun. Thanks for your suggestion and willingness to help anyway.
Don't mean to beat a dead horse, but maybe I'm just not understanding what you are after. Rather then doing a lemma BWS, why not do an english BWS?
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Sorry Philip, I had not understood your suggestion. It is actually an interesting work around. At least for the word "dream" it seem to bring a result close to accurate. Maybe other words would be a little more complicated. Anyway, although not accurate because it starts from the English word, for the word dream apparently it works just fine.
www.aprendalogos.com
Youtube: AprendaLogos0 -
Peter Covert said:
KS4J,
Even in these post, there are a lot of questions being asked about the future of WPF. Even in one of the post, the person stated that Silverlight has more momentum than WPF. I also would expect a statement like "how good this product is" from someone who works for MS. Why does MS have to respond like this? Could it be that companies like Evernote are moving away from WPF?
What customers say with their actions (like Evernote moving away from WPF) says a lot more about a product than what a company does with their words (like MS saying WPF is not dead).
Reading comments about Present and Future of WPF found a reference to WPF 3D team blog that was last updated May 2010 => https://blogs.msdn.com/b/wpf3d/ plus WPF codeplex web site http://wpf.codeplex.com/ with "New" items over a year old.
Also noted last news item on Microsoft's WPF developer center page http://windowsclient.net/default.aspx has same date as Logos announcement of Android development last year. Looking at WPF news archive shows many 2010 postings; [ ] silence is deafening.
In contrast, Microsoft's Silverlight developer web site has news update on Apr 15 plus blog updates today => http://www.silverlight.net/
MJ. Smith said:Rosie Perera said:Logos tends to be an early adopter of new technology.
In fairness to Logos, given the Microsoft information known when Logos 4 architecture was being designed, WPF was a reasonable decision. Current information leads one to be suspicious of its future. If Logos 4 has separated its presentation layer, they will be able rewrite the problematic part when the best choice for the future is clearer.
Likewise wonder about presentation layer future for Logos. In some ways switching to Silverlight harkens back to using Internet Explorer display engine for Libronix 3 (albeit Microsoft has Silverlight plug-ins for several browsers: Internet Explorer, FireFox, Safari, and Chrome).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Philip Spitzer said:
I prefer they use their resource to get the important things right
As David Knoll noted in a different thread the roots are important. What Nielsen is looking for is all occurrences where a verb and direct object share a root - in Hebrew or in Greek. For many of us, the idea of a word study without the ability to search by roots is a big limitation And if I understand the structure of Semitic languages correctly, people working across multiple languages - Hebrew, Aramaic, Ugaric, Syriac ... would also be seriously hampered.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Philip Spitzer said:
Don't mean to beat a dead horse, but maybe I'm just not understanding what you are after.
Whether two words share the same root in English is independent of whether they share the same root in Hebrew. "dreamed a dream" is simply an example as is "fought the good fight". They are easy to find if you already know the words you are looking for. One can't find them in Logos if you know only the relationship between the words.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
And if I understand the structure of Semitic languages correctly, people working across multiple languages - Hebrew, Aramaic, Ugaric, Syriac ... would also be seriously hampered.
Yep. There is a difference between Indo-European and Semitic languages. Historical linguists postulate roots for the former but they are of little importance to the understanding of the language per se. Indo-European languages are based on stems. Semitic languages on the other hand, revolve round the root. The root manifests itself in many patterns verbal and nominal.
As for searching Hebrew through English, I almost never open an English translations. I am interested in what is written in the original.
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Richard Hendricks said:
Logos 4 is too slow, too bloated, an relies on indexing technology which is completely outmoded. It's still missing too many things which we loved about Logos 3. And it's still the slowest of the Bible software packages for searching the Bible.
It's time to scrap the whole thing and reprogram the software and resources from scratch, with SPEED as the priority.
You are like the kid that saw that the Emperor had no clothes and said something about it. Good for you. I used to talk about this after L4 was released but the L4 fan boys (and gals) just painted me as a crusty old party pooper. Logos 4 always seems to be running on a computer out in the garage that I'm accessing via VNC but it's right here in my lap. Oh, and the computer in the garage has a lot of bad sectors on the hard drive and is running on a P2 processor.
[;)]
Keep telling it like it is. I think too many people on this forum actually use the Logos Forum more than they use the software.
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777 said:
I think too many people on this forum actually use the Logos Forum more than they use the software.
Well, we've got to have something to do while we're waiting for Logos to get back to us, don't we? [;)]
I'm one of the folks whom you might have labeled a "fan gal"; but I'm also realistic and push Logos to fix stuff that's practically unusable.
I still don't think a rewrite from the ground up is the solution, though. That's what they did from L3 to L4, and it got slower in some ways (except searches through one's entire library are much faster now).
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Mark Barnes said:
By the time Logos 5 is out, you'll have updated your computer at least once, and Logos 4 will fly!
That's what I'm afraid of. When Logos 5 comes out THEN Logos 4 will fly. What will Logos 5 be doing? Probably much like Logos 4 is doing now. [:)]
That being said, Logos 4 is now better than it was when it was released. So it is going in the right direction. I don't have a zillion bucks tied up in Logos resources, but when I bought in to the product when it shipped on floppy disks I figured I was buying a perpetual library that Logos was going to maintain a searchable interface for and improve upon. I think L4 was released waaaaaaaay too soon. I also think it was coded using the latest programming Kool-Aid that MS was pushing at the time and things would have been a lot better if it was all native C, C++, and assembler. But that's just me.
I still get wrankled about how slow it is compared to other products, but I'm only using a dual core machine. The other products are much faster on that machine. Getting faster hardware should not be a band-aid for slow code. When I buy a faster machine I buy it so I can go faster, not so my apps can be programmed in such a way that they suck the speed out of my hardware investment.
But it IS getting better...... [:)]
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Rosie Perera said:777 said:
I think too many people on this forum actually use the Logos Forum more than they use the software.
Well, we've got to have something to do while we're waiting for Logos to get back to us, don't we?
I'm one of the folks whom you might have labeled a "fan gal"; but I'm also realistic and push Logos to fix stuff that's practically unusable.
I still don't think a rewrite from the ground up is the solution, though. That's what they did from L3 to L4, and it got slower in some ways (except searches through one's entire library are much faster now).
You're the worst! I mean all you ever do is hang around here holding up that blasted camera. How can you even use a mouse or type to use Logos?
I have noticed that you are indeed a good voice for getting things fixed. Much better than I am. I like to throw barbed words dipped in righteous indignation for my software being slow and bloated. Keep fighting the good fight and I'll reap the benefit of you keeping Logos on task. Thanks!
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Reading comments about Present and Future of WPF found a reference to WPF 3D team blog that was last updated May 2010 => https://blogs.msdn.com/b/wpf3d/ plus WPF codeplex web site http://wpf.codeplex.com/ with "New" items over a year old.Peter Covert said:KS4J,
Even in these post, there are a lot of questions being asked about the future of WPF. Even in one of the post, the person stated that Silverlight has more momentum than WPF. I also would expect a statement like "how good this product is" from someone who works for MS. Why does MS have to respond like this? Could it be that companies like Evernote are moving away from WPF?
What customers say with their actions (like Evernote moving away from WPF) says a lot more about a product than what a company does with their words (like MS saying WPF is not dead).
Also noted last news item on Microsoft's WPF developer center page http://windowsclient.net/default.aspx has same date as Logos announcement of Android development last year. Looking at WPF news archive shows many 2010 postings; [ ] silence is deafening.
In contrast, Microsoft's Silverlight developer web site has news update on Apr 15 plus blog updates today => http://www.silverlight.net/
Likewise wonder about presentation layer future for Logos. In some ways switching to Silverlight harkens back to using Internet Explorer display engine for Libronix 3 (albeit Microsoft has Silverlight plug-ins for several browsers: Internet Explorer, FireFox, Safari, and Chrome).MJ. Smith said:Rosie Perera said:Logos tends to be an early adopter of new technology.
In fairness to Logos, given the Microsoft information known when Logos 4 architecture was being designed, WPF was a reasonable decision. Current information leads one to be suspicious of its future. If Logos 4 has separated its presentation layer, they will be able rewrite the problematic part when the best choice for the future is clearer.
Keep Smiling
I like the idea of the presentation layer to process HTML5, and access everything via my web browser. This way everything looks the same if I am accessing my library online from biblia.com or on my pc or on my mac.
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MJ. Smith said:Philip Spitzer said:
I prefer they use their resource to get the important things right
As David Knoll noted in a different thread the roots are important. What Nielsen is looking for is all occurrences where a verb and direct object share a root - in Hebrew or in Greek. For many of us, the idea of a word study without the ability to search by roots is a big limitation And if I understand the structure of Semitic languages correctly, people working across multiple languages - Hebrew, Aramaic, Ugaric, Syriac ... would also be seriously hampered.
I agree that this is an important feature. While I'm glad a "work-around" exists that moves in the general direction I know if falls way short of getting someone to the end result in an efficient manner. I was glad to see it on Uservoice!
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MJ. Smith said:Philip Spitzer said:
Don't mean to beat a dead horse, but maybe I'm just not understanding what you are after.
Whether two words share the same root in English is independent of whether they share the same root in Hebrew. "dreamed a dream" is simply an example as is "fought the good fight". They are easy to find if you already know the words you are looking for. One can't find them in Logos if you know only the relationship between the words.
Thanks MJ for making clear what is the core of the problem here. As you may have noticed already, English is not my first language. Sometimes is hard to explain all you want to say.
www.aprendalogos.com
Youtube: AprendaLogos0
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