Change/Replace text within a book ?

Is it possible, or planned, to be able to change text within a book.

For example, I would like to change my ESV text where doulos is translated as something other than slave so the text says slave.

I can believe that there may be other times where I would prefer the english translation to be a different word that more accurately reflects the original language.

Thanks

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Comments

Fred Chapman

Yes. You can do this by creating a by creating a custom highlight and then applying that as a visual filter to find all occurrences of you word.

Lionel B Dyck

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/247835#Comment_247835

I like it - thanks very much

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/247836#Comment_247836

Lionel and Fred! *smile*

Peace to you! and!

Always Joy in the Lord!

I am quite intrigued by this possibility but am unsure whether or not I want to proceed and to invest the time needed ---- perhaps I'm not quite as energetic and enthusiastic as you ??

So, would one of you be willing, please, to post a screenshot, preferably "before" and "after" to demonstrate how this would actually look?

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249035#Comment_249035

So, would one of you be willing, please, to post a screenshot, preferably "before" and "after" to demonstrate how this would actually look?

One example (changing LORD to Yahweh) can be found in the wiki, here:

http://wiki.logos.com/Custom_Highlighting$3a_Orig_Lang._%28for_Visual_Filters%29

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249036#Comment_249036

Richard! *smile*

Peace and Every Blessing to you as you Celebrate the Lord's Day out there on the West Coast of our continent!

Thank you for the reference. I'm a bit "startled" that one could actually change a text.

Somehow, the text seems a bit too sacrosanct to me to change it .... However! I'm going to investigate, and I am thankful! *smile*

Lionel B Dyck

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249037#Comment_249037

Upon further reflection this isn't the best solution as a search will not find the new word
As for why, the reason is that in some cases the English translation did not use the best word (e.g. Servant or bond-servant is not the same as slave)

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249037#Comment_249037

Thank you for the reference. I'm a bit "startled" that one could actually change a text. Somehow, the text seems a bit too sacrosanct to me to change it ....

Yes, I feel somewhat the same way. What is possible, isn't always what's best.

I have a different strategy with these types of things (e.g 'sinful nature' for 'flesh' in the NIV): I simply highlight such words with a unique visual filter (applied to the underlying Greek of a reverse interlinear), without actually changing the text.

Bohuslav Wojnar

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249039#Comment_249039

I have a different strategy with these types of things (e.g 'sinful nature' for 'flesh' in the NIV): I simply highlight such words with a unique visual filter (applied to the underlying Greek of a reverse interlinear), without actually changing the text.

Yes, that's exactly what I do to see the different Hebrew and Greek words in my version of ESV. It works perfect, I like it very much.

Jacob Hantla

Is it possible, or planned, to be able to change text within a book.

For example, I would like to change my ESV text where doulos is translated as something other than slave so the text says slave.

I can believe that there may be other times where I would prefer the english translation to be a different word that more accurately reflects the original language.

Thanks

Changing doulous to slave and LORD-->Yahweh were the main reasons behind my original idea to create this visual filter: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/16999.aspx

Jacob Hantla

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249037#Comment_249037

Somehow, the text seems a bit too sacrosanct to me to change it .... However! I'm going to investigate, and I am thankful! *smile*

You aren't actually changing the text, just applying a visual filter to it ;-).

Whenever I have a visual filter apply a "change" to the text, I format my visual filter in such a way that I can see what the translation originally said. I am not changing the words of the BIble at all, actually helping myself get closer to the original by changing the way things look in English

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249038#Comment_249038

Upon further reflection this isn't the best solution as a search will not find the new word As for why, the reason is that in some cases the English translation did not use the best word (e.g. Servant or bond-servant is not the same as slave)

I hardly think it a good idea to go around modifying books, even if you could. Then it would no longer be the same book. One other thing that puzzles me is why so many seem eager to become slaves. The word δοῦλος in in Greek may have been used of those who were slaves, but it was also used of high-ranking officials in the service of the ruler. It might in some cases be rendered "ambassador." There really is no need to attempt to make one's self as insignificant as possible.

Revelation 1:6 (NRSV)

⁶and made us to be a kingdom, priests serving his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

I recall very clearly Colin Powell's comment when asked about whether he would remain as Secretary of State. He said "I serve at the pleasure of the President." It is an honorable position and not to be demeaned.

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249049#Comment_249049

Peace, Jacob!

*smile*

Now we're talking! Yes! Exactly what I'm interested in!

Then it becomes like a "very personal commentary" on the text!

Thanks for your post...........

If it's not too difficult for you, I'd love to seen a screenshot. Tomorrow or next week is fine. Not urgent............ Today is The Lord's Day, eh? (For all those who don't use that phrase or terminology, I recognise that EVERY day is the Lord's Day.) *smile*

Always Joy in the Lord!

Jacob Hantla

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249050#Comment_249050

One other thing that puzzles me is why so many seem eager to become slaves.

We're all slaves to someone/something (c.f. Rom 6). I was bought for a price by a self-giving, gracious Master, who in doing so freed me from my previous slavery to sin, enslaving me now to righteousness and to Him. What a privilege to be the slave of the King of Kings...and then not only did He free me from the tyranny of sin, but I was adopted as a son.

George, I strongly recommend MacArthur's book, Slave: http://amzn.to/macSlave I hope that it gets made available in Logos very soon.

The word δοῦλος in in Greek may have been used of those who were slaves, but it was also used of high-ranking officials in the service of the ruler. It might in some cases be rendered "ambassador."

Run this word study: logos4:Guide;t=Bible_Word_Study;lemma=lbs$2Fel$2F$CE$B4$CE$BF$E1$BF$A6$CE$BB$CE$BF$CF$82;wn=gnt$2F85702

Look in your lexicons (BDAG for example: logosres:bdag;hw=$CE$B4$CE$BF$CF$85$CD$82$CE$BB$CE$BF$CF$82;off=374)

Kittel states clearly: "All the words in this group serve either to describe the status of a slave or an attitude corresponding to that of a slave." logosres:tdnt;ref=TDNT.Vol._2,_Pg._261;off=-1

You will see that although most English translations using the word servant or bondservant, this translation doesn't do justice to the real meaning of the word.

Jacob Hantla

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249050#Comment_249050

There really is no need to attempt to make one's self as insignificant as possible.

"Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant slave, being born in the likeness of men." Phil 2:4-7

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249055#Comment_249055

Look in your lexicons (BDAG for example: logosres:bdag;hw=$CE$B4$CE$BF$CF$85$CD$82$CE$BB$CE$BF$CF$82;off=374)

Kittel states clearly: "All the words in this group serve either to describe the status of a slave or an attitude corresponding to that of a slave." logosres:tdnt;ref=TDNT.Vol._2,_Pg._261;off=-1

You will see that although most English translations using the word servant or bondservant, this translation doesn't do justice to the real meaning of the word.

2 Kings 18:16–25 (NRSV)

¹⁶At that time Hezekiah stripped the gold from the doors of the temple of the Lord, and from the doorposts that King Hezekiah of Judah had overlaid and gave it to the king of Assyria. ¹⁷The king of Assyria sent the Tartan, the Rabsaris, and the Rabshakeh with a great army from Lachish to King Hezekiah at Jerusalem. They went up and came to Jerusalem. When they arrived, they came and stood by the conduit of the upper pool, which is on the highway to the Fuller’s Field. ¹⁸When they called for the king, there came out to them Eliakim son of Hilkiah, who was in charge of the palace, and Shebnah the secretary, and Joah son of Asaph, the recorder.

¹⁹The Rabshakeh said to them, “Say to Hezekiah: Thus says the great king, the king of Assyria: On what do you base this confidence of yours? ²⁰Do you think that mere words are strategy and power for war? On whom do you now rely, that you have rebelled against me? ²¹See, you are relying now on Egypt, that broken reed of a staff, which will pierce the hand of anyone who leans on it. Such is Pharaoh king of Egypt to all who rely on him. ²²But if you say to me, ‘We rely on the Lord our God,’ is it not he whose high places and altars Hezekiah has removed, saying to Judah and to Jerusalem, ‘You shall worship before this altar in Jerusalem’? ²³Come now, make a wager with my master the king of Assyria: I will give you two thousand horses, if you are able on your part to set riders on them. ²⁴How then can you repulse a single captain among the least of my master’s servants, when you rely on Egypt for chariots and for horsemen? ²⁵Moreover, is it without the Lord that I have come up against this place to destroy it? The Lord said to me, Go up against this land, and destroy it.”

The servant speaks in the name of his master and is not a lowly figure, but one of honor.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249051#Comment_249051

Peace, Jacob!

                             *smile*

                                                      Now we're talking!   Yes! Exactly what I'm interested in!

Then it becomes like a "very personal commentary" on the text!

             Thanks for your post...........

                                If it's not too difficult for you, I'd love to seen a screenshot. Tomorrow or next week is fine. Not urgent............              Today is The Lord's Day, eh?      (For all those who don't use that phrase or terminology, I recognise that EVERY day is the Lord's Day.)          *smile*

              Always Joy in the Lord!

No need to apologize for using "the Lord's Day." It was on the Lord's Day that we are told that the revelation on Patmos took place. St Ignatius noted in his epistle to the Magnesians (9)

"9. If, then, those who had lived in antiquated practices came to newness of hope, no longer keeping the Sabbath but living in accordance with the Lord’s day, on which our life also arose through him and his death (which some deny), the mystery through which we came to believe, and because of which we patiently endure, in order that we might be found to be disciples of Jesus Christ, our only teacher, (2) how can we possibly live without him, whom even the prophets, who were his disciples in the Spirit, were expecting as their teacher? Because of this he for whom they rightly waited raised them from the dead when he came."

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249059#Comment_249059

George! *smile*

Thank you for that St.Ignatius quote. Appreciate it!

Now to see if I can find it using Logos4 search, so that I can put a pleasant highlight there...........

Peace!

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249493#Comment_249493

Found it! Not once, but twice! *smile* Thanks again! Now to study it!

Bohuslav Wojnar

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249498#Comment_249498

Found it! Not once, but twice! *smile* Thanks again! Now to study it!

Greetings Milford. I am just preaching a series on the Decalogue and right now I am at 4th Commandment, so I like your discussion with George. [:)][Y]

Chris Lohroff

Lionel,

I did this recently after reading MacArthur's Slave. I assume you are prompted by the same book? Here is how I did it.

First I created the following highlight:

Then I created the following visual filter. Notice that I also included the OT Hebrew words that MacArthur mentioned. I realize that technically this isn't correct because I'm displaying the greek, but it's fine for my purposes.

I'm quite pleased with the results. I decided to preserve the translator's word (as a small superscript) because it facilitates reading with others. The change also appears when I print the text.

Lionel B Dyck

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249663#Comment_249663

Awesome - thanks. You are correct that reading John's book prompted my question.

question: does this change also allow you to find every occurance of slave when you search for slave ?

Chris Lohroff

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249665#Comment_249665

I don't know the answer. It does seem that this search string does what you want. If you search the entire NT for

you'll get 144 occurrences. As I recall that was close to the same number that MacArthur referred to.

Jacob Hantla

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249663#Comment_249663

Lionel,

I did this recently after reading MacArthur's Slave. I assume you are prompted by the same book? Here is how I did it.

First I created the following highlight:

Then I created the following visual filter. Notice that I also included the OT Hebrew words that MacArthur mentioned. I realize that technically this isn't correct because I'm displaying the greek, but it's fine for my purposes.

Why are you changing things that aren't doulos to doulos?

Chris Lohroff

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249728#Comment_249728

G1402 and G4889 have doulos (G1401) as their root. As I recall, H5650 is translated as doulos in the Septuagint, although I don't recall my source for this. I believe MacArthur mentioned that in his book but I can't say for sure.

That was my thinking. Am I off base? My intent was not to render the actual Greek, but to remind myself when I'm reading that this passage relates to the type of service and commitment discussed in the book.

Chris Lohroff

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249742#Comment_249742

Initially I had created separate highlights for doulos, syndoulos, etc but decided it really wasn't buying me anything so I pointed them all to the same one. It would certainly be more correct to go with the former approach but the latter was better for me.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249745#Comment_249745

Initially I had created separate highlights for doulos, syndoulos, etc but decided it really wasn't buying me anything so I pointed them all to the same one. It would certainly be more correct to go with the former approach but the latter was better for me.

If you're so intent on finding the Greek words, why don't you simply read from the NA27. If you can't read the NA27, you don't gain anything by that process.

Chris Lohroff

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249751#Comment_249751

I've actually found it to be incredibly helpful and I'm not sure why you think you could say otherwise, George.

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249759#Comment_249759

Peace, George!

Are you having a "bad hair" day?

*smile*

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249762#Comment_249762

Are you having a "bad hair" day?

The last I heard you had to have hair to have a bad hair day -- well, I do have a few strands left. No, I'm just intrigued that someone who doesn't know Greek thinks it significant to know the Greek word which an English word translates. Would it be any more significant if it were in Inuit?

Chris Lohroff

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249775#Comment_249775

It wouldn't matter WHAT the word was. This is simply a way to mark the occurrences of the word MacArther is referring to in his book, and when I come across the word it's a reminder to think about what the word really means.
What I don't appreciate is the presumption that you know better than I do what has and hasn't been helpful for me. That seems like the height of arrogance to me, and that, is indeed NOT helpful.

Chris Lohroff

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249781#Comment_249781

Sorry for getting my wig in a twist...

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249785#Comment_249785

Sorry for getting my wig in a twist...

Chris - in time you will learn that George is our forum curmudgeon. - and a rather lovable one. So your correct, there is no need to get upset with him. MJ

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249792#Comment_249792

Chris - in time you will learn that George is our forum curmudgeon. - and a rather lovable one. So your correct, there is no need to get upset with him. MJ

It simply goes against the grain to attempt to change what an author (or translator) has written. It's not ours to make it say what we wish it to say. Putting a note at that location is another matter.

Chris Lohroff

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249799#Comment_249799

I understand your point George. The main point of the book Slave is that the translators got it wrong. Marking the text was simply a way to undo that. You should read it. It's very curmudgeony.

Lionel B Dyck

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249802#Comment_249802

I sent a note to the Crossway folks asking if there were plans to change the text in a future revision of the ESV and was told they had changed servant to bondservant where it made more sense but they had not plans to change it to slave.

imho slave makes sense and trying to be politically correct is not something that should apply to the Bible as the Bible is always 100% completely correct. John MacArthur is much more eloquent than I could ever be on that.

I did not anticipate the range of responses or the depth of emotions that I would raise by my simple question.

your brother in Christ

Lionel

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249828#Comment_249828

Because the variety of forum posters is so broad, it is easy to hit emotional buttons without a clue as to why. From my personal perspective phrases like "politically correct" and "translators got it wrong" are phrases that evoke an instant "prove it" response. On the other hand, the "translators chose to emphasize x over y by translating it as z" gets me to listen.

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249828#Comment_249828

I sent a note to the Crossway folks asking if there were plans to change the text in a future revision of the ESV and was told they had changed servant to bondservant where it made more sense but they had not plans to change it to slave.

imho slave makes sense

well, more or less you are saying that you (or the teachers you listen to, like JMA) are better translators than the ESV translation committee shock-ful of seasoned, conservative scholars. Same goes for all other translations that don't use "slave". To me it's clear that this might rise some responses from people who are less convinced.

It might be that there isn't even a right or wrong answer to this question, since "slave" conveys a number of meanings to different people. When Paul says "I am a slave of Jesus", some might hear "I once was a slave of the devil but now Jesus has redeemed me and I now serve him, halleluya!" others might hear "Jesus is my Lord and he has the ultimate right to decide what I do and what is right or wrong for me" still others might hear "Jesus is a brutal master that destroys all my self-worth, punishes me at whim and for things I wasn't able to avoid". The word "slave" raises theological and cognitive aspects as well as emotional ones - and some listeners may even be unable to follow Paul's writing or a sermon because this word spins them off in their head into sequences of "Uncle Tom's cabin" or whatever.

I think translators need to be very aware of the aspect of "doulos" or its Hebrew counterpart that the author was trying to refer to, and then wisely choose what English (or German...) word to select to convey the meaning as best as possible. When a text speaks of human beings sold on a market, "slave" may work well. Whether "slave" conveys the right meaning when somebody sells his work labour to another for a limited period of time in order to get rid of debts, this may be different (or not), whereas the aspect of serving another (and in the context: freely out of love or thankfulness) may much better be reflected by "servant".

Just my thoughts on this.

Mick

Edited: PS I am thankful for Logos to be able to see various translations as well as the Greek text to understand better the choices the translators made - because sometimes there is more to think over than meets the eye.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249871#Comment_249871

Good points, NewbieMick (and not disagreeing with Lionel). The same english word indeed means things to different people.

Lionel B Dyck

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249896#Comment_249896

I mean no disrespect. I am a humble follower/slave of Yshua and while not seminary trained and without knowledge of original language I must trust those who do and when I learn something such as this I want to make sure I don't forget it (senior moments seem to occur due to short term memory failures on my part). I am sure the translators of the NASB, KJV, NKJV, ESV, etc had a good reason to use servant/bondservant rather than slave however the term slave is more meaningful to me as it indicates that I am not a paid/volunteer employee (servant) to the Lord but I am HIS as HE has purchased me - I am no longer a slave to sin who is a master who desires my death and eternal damnation, but am a slave of a wonderful loving master who calls me HIS child.

John MacArthur pointed out in his book that other languages in which the Bible has been translated have used the term slave rather than servant if that helps. No one knows why this was done as there are no notes as there was to the Continental Congress when preparing the Declaration of Independence or the Constitutional Convention that prepared the Constitution. Perhaps it is because of the pain and embarassment of slavery that haunts the English speaking world to this day. Was slavery any different then or at the time of Christ? Probably not as captives were still sold into slavery and there were evil/bad masters and good/great masters in both times.

I hope I'm making sense.

ybic

Lionel

Lionel B Dyck

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249923#Comment_249923

I found this which is a good summary - I don't see a date but suspect is preceeds John macArthurs work:

http://www.slideshare.net/larosa217/slaves-for-christ

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249925#Comment_249925

Thanks. Definitely thought-provoking.I'm still bemused by the characterization as "politically correct" when I see no connection to political correctness as I understand it. But I do understand what aspects of meaning are lost (and gained) by translations such as servant or indentured servant vs. slave.There appears tp be a solid (but not compelling) argument for the translation "slave".

Jacob Hantla

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/250017#Comment_250017

Thanks. Definitely thought-provoking.I'm still bemused by the characterization as "politically correct" when I see no connection to political correctness as I understand it. But I do understand what aspects of meaning are lost (and gained) by translations such as servant or indentured servant vs. slave.There appears tp be a solid (but not compelling) argument for the translation "slave".

Flip through your Lexicons for the word. Then look at the actual translation choices. I am not sure what motivates the slowness to use slave and rather use "servant" (politically correct-whatever that means, keep with traditions of older translations, avoid allusions to American slavery, etc). But it is odd that it seems when looking at my Lexicons and extrabiblical uses, there seems to be no reason to translate it anything other than slave every single time.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/250060#Comment_250060

Flip through your Lexicons for the word. Then look at the actual translation choices. I am not sure what motivates the slowness to use slave

I am not sufficiently knowledgeable in Greek to make an informed choice. I only know enough Greek to follow the argument in an informed manner. What I see is an issue where scholars who have that knowledge have made different choices for supportable reasons. I can also see reasons where slave may not have the appropriate connotation - it negates free choice and fails to carry the possibility of debt-repayment

As for Logos text comparison, it appears to show that my top Bibles are evenly divided on the issue. (Since one of my top 5 is JPS, my top 5 can be evenly divided in Greek.[;)])

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249742#Comment_249742

G1402 and G4889 have doulos (G1401) as their root. As I recall, H5650 is translated as doulos in the Septuagint, although I don't recall my source for this. I believe MacArthur mentioned that in his book but I can't say for sure.

That was my thinking. Am I off base? My intent was not to render the actual Greek, but to remind myself when I'm reading that this passage relates to the type of service and commitment discussed in the book.

Observation: Strong's Greek word 1402 is a verb, which is a cognate of δοῦλος (doulos), slave. Some # 1402 usages are participles that have verbal and noun aspects (e.g. Titus 2:3). Appears visual filter replaces some verbs (e.g. enslave, enslaved) with a noun (doulos).

For screen capture, choose to display Greek lemma transliterated in ESV (to show doulos). In a floating window, searched for <strongs+g = Strong's Greek #1401> OR <strongs+g = Strong's Greek #4889> to highlight δοῦλος (doulos) and σύνδουλος (syndoulos) in Matthew 24. By the way, the "ho" preceding doulos and syndoulos in Matthew 24 is the Greek definite article ("the"), a finger pointer. In Matthew 24:45, personally right clicked on servant, clicked lemma, then clicked my Top preferred lexicon: "The Lexham Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament (LXGRCANLEX)" that includes cognate words plus Louw-Nida semantic domain numbering. Another right click on servant, clicked Greek Strong's, then clicked Enhanced Strong's Lexicon (ESL). For screen capture, ESL was too verbose, so used parallel resources to switch to Strong's "A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek New Testament and The Hebrew Bible":

Looking at cognate words for "δοῦλος (doulos), slave" in LXGRCANLEX, saw corresponding entries in Strong's concise dictionary: from 1396 to 1402. Also noted Strong's 1396, 1398, and 1402 are verbs. The other LXGRCANLEX cognate words correspond to Strong's 2615 (καταδουλόω), 3787 (ὀφθαλμοδουλία), and 4889 (σύνδουλος).

Strong's 2615 (verb) includes preposition prefix: κατα (down: from, upon, OR along).

Strong's 4889 (noun) includes preposition prefix σύν (together with).

Logos user voice # 23 => http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4/suggestions/682641-stem-cognate-search?ref=title is a request for Stem/Cognate search, which would be helpful for this discussion.

Keep Smiling [:)]