Why Vyrso is a very good thing
Like many of you, when I heard about Vyrso I was distinctly underwhelmed. The app did nothing my Logos app couldn't do. I have no particular interest in 'popular' Christian books, having the slightly cynical view that the more popular a Christian book is, the less valuable (and often the less Christian) it is. Nevertheless, I think this announcement is very significant not just for Logos as a company, but for each of us, too. Here's ten reasons why:
- Vyrso books are better than Kindle and Nook books if you're not already committed to a platform through owning a dedicated device. They have pop-up Scripture references, and you can read them in a desktop application, and on biblia.com (I wouldn't be surprised to see a cut-down version of biblia arriving at vyrso.com in the near future).
- Vyrso books are very cheap to produce. It's very likely they'll be automatically converted from existing e-books, with just a very minimal amount of tagging needed. No complex Akkadian, or even Greek/Hebrew. Probably very few Scripture references either.
- The low cost of product potentially works both ways. I work for a small Christian publisher that doesn't publish reference books. We can't afford to get our books published in Logos - but if we have a ePub version of our book available, perhaps we could afford to publish with Vyrso.
- There's a huge number of Christians who simply aren't going to pay $200-$300 for Bible Study software, but who would pay $10 for an e-book. In time that's a whole new bunch of people to market low-end Logos packages to (who'll be hooked partly by knowing all their Vyrso purchases are included free!).
- There's a smaller number of Christians who'd like access to existing Logos resources on the move, without buying a Logos 4 base package. With Vyrso, they'll get it - more income for Logos, and more chance pre-pubs get made.
- Vyrso will give Logos relationships with publishing partners they wouldn't otherwise have. Some of those publishers will be imprints of publishing groups that also produce reference books that we really want in Logos. If Vyrso goes well, the academic/reference imprints might sign up for Logos proper.
- Even if 99% of the books produced for Vyrso are not for me, that still leaves 100 books I'll like.
- Vyrso's pricing structure (permanent discounts on RRP) might put pressure on some over-priced Logos books (are you listening Zondervan and Baker?).
- If Vyrso supports PBB, and Logos re-sells PBBs, we might find Vyrso users willing to buy books we've written/produced!
- The fact of Vyrso reduces the dominance of Kindle. Kindle is a great device, but Amazon's aggressive pricing is bad for publishers (and ultimately for readers, too).
So, I'm excited by this opportunity, and see it as win-win-win-win for readers of popular books, for publishers, for Logos, and for Logos 4 customers.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
Comments
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I can agree with all your 10 points Mark. Thanks for putting them together. [Y]
Bohuslav
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Mark,
I also agree with what you said...thanks for taking the time to sort it out.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Mark Barnes said:
I think this announcement is very significant not just for Logos as a company, but for each of us, too. Here's ten reasons why
Very interesting. Thank you for sharing.
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Excellent points all around Mark.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
The one area I would disagree is in the cost of the books in comparison to Kindle and Nook. Compare the books at the advertised 50% off at Vyrso to Nook Book pricing...
Also Nook has a dedicated Desktop application that allows you full access to all your purchases too. Not sure about Kindle, but both do have mobile apps with full access as well.
Hope it brings Logos new customers
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Yes, but...
Still nobody has commented on my previous post in a different thread about my concerns with the success of Vyrso. The initial books they have listed on their page (at 50% off) are still way over the Kindle prices. I see no way the general public is going to buy in to yet another ereader app, especially when they can get the same books at cheaper prices on the apps they are already familiar with. Perhaps pop-up scripture references are a plus that the other ereader apps don't have (as you stated above), but I don't see that as worth $3-5+ for every book I buy, especially when the point of those books is not to illuminate scripture but instead to provide a good read that may or may not be informed by some random scripture passage. Further, if the books on the promo page for Vyrso are their big promo books - meaning normal books offered later on will not be at "50% off", there is seriously no way they can compete. Who is going to be $30 for a book on Vyrso when the same book is $10 on Kindle? Not going to happen. Not if Vyrso is simply "another ereader app" in the marketplace.
I can see Vryso becoming a PBB marketplace - and that is great ... for us pre-existing Logos customers. But no way normally published books are going to stand a chance and no way there will be an influx of non-Logos customers into the business. Unless I'm missing something here.
Pastor, seminary trustee, and app developer. Check out my latest app for churches: The Church App
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Frank Sauer said:
The one area I would disagree is in the cost of the books in comparison to Kindle and Nook. Compare the books at the advertised 50% off at Vyrso to Nook Book pricing...
Agreed, but Bob's expressed elsewhere that he thinks they'll be much more competitive outside the 'best-seller' list.
Frank Sauer said:Also Nook has a dedicated Desktop application that allows you full access to all your purchases too. Not sure about Kindle, but both do have mobile apps with full access as well.
Thanks for the clarification. As you say, both Nook and Kindle have Mac and PC apps. But neither allow you to read without installing software, or from non-supported devices (a la biblia.com) - though they do support more devices than Vyrso (including Android! [:)])
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark -
Great points. I especially agree with point 4 (the "Halo" effect). I think many people will be brought into the Logos fold, which benefits those of us already in. I am also very excited to be able to highlight & mark up my eBooks with Logos. Hopefully the iPad app will include those features too in the near future.
Justin
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Rev Chris said:
I can see Vryso becoming a PBB marketplace - and that is great ... for us pre-existing Logos customers. But no way normally published books are going to stand a chance and no way there will be an influx of non-Logos customers into the business. Unless I'm missing something here.
I think you are missing something - principally the all-important role of the publishers:
- First, many publishers are very uneasy about Kindle, and will be very glad to see Amazon getting some competition, and will want to support that competition.
- Second, some major Christian publishers are still too small to be heavily promoted by Amazon. Logos may be able to negotiate better deals with these publishers, and perhaps even undercut Amazon. These publishers may even promote Vyrso to their own customers through their website and mailing list.
- Third, the discounts on Vyrso books are not intended to be introductory offers, but permanent discounts.
- Fourth, they'll be some books that simply aren't available on the Kindle. If people wan't them, they'll have to get Vyrso. Once they're using it, they'll hopefully enjoy it and want more.
- Finally, many Christian consumers will be glad of a store that sells
only Christian books. They'll like getting better recommendations and
more relevant emails. cbd.com hasn't gone out of business even though
sometimes it's more expensive than amazon. Likewise Apple still sell eBooks even though for most books they're more expensive than Amazon.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Rev Chris said:
The initial books they have listed on their page (at 50% off) are still way over the Kindle prices.
I compared EVERY book with Amazon last night. I guess I was bored. Most books were within $1.50 of the Amazon price, and with at least 4-5 books, Logos had the LOWER price. One book Amazon must be doing at a huge loss (they are selling it for less than $1). I bought the Donald Miller book last night. It was about $1 more than Amazon, however, I think $1 is a great price to be able to have the book in my Logos Library. I am not inclined to by "Christian Fiction." If I were, I would buy it at the cheapest price. Books by authors such as Francis Chan, Andy Stanley, John Maxwell, Dave Ramsey, etc. are ones that I would want in my Logos library. Perhaps I will end up doing a sermon series in the future and these books will benefit my study. I just wrote my final paper for my MDIV last month. I was very excited to find that some of my old textbooks, which I had added to my Logos Library, were pulled up with my search results. I hope that I can never buy a print book again!
Justin
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Mark -
What is the best way to locate these books when they are added to my library? I noticed that Logos is (Tagging the books?) as "Monograph." Would it not be more useful if they labeled them "trade book" or "vyrso?" What can I do so that I can pull these books up quickly?
Justin
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So, if I buy a book from Vyrso, will it appear in my logos library on my computer or will it appear in the logos app or just the vyrso app?
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It will appear in whatever Logos app you're using: Logos 4, Logos 4 Mac, Logos iPhone/iPad app, Vyrso app. I think there are also scripts for most of the Vyrso books to have them in Libronix.
"Mach's wie Gott - werde Mensch!" | theolobias.de
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alabama24 said:
What is the best way to locate these books when they are added to my library? I noticed that Logos is (Tagging the books?) as "Monograph." Would it not be more useful if they labeled them "trade book" or "vyrso?" What can I do so that I can pull these books up quickly?
The "type" field in Logos is really for its own internal use (so it knows how to treat the book). Really, there's isn't such a thing as a distinct Vyrso book. They're just ordinary Logos books marketed differently. If you need to distinguish them, you'll have to tag them manually. You could sort by the "Last Updated" field to quickly find recently added books.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Theolobias said:
It will appear in whatever Logos app you're using: Logos 4, Logos 4 Mac, Logos iPhone/iPad app, Vyrso app
Thanks. I guess my question stemmed from the fact that these books do not appear in the logos.com store and just in vyrso.com store. I tried searching for "Fearless" or "Hole in our Gospel" in the logos store with no success and when I didn't see them there, I started to think that they would not appear in the logos 4 library.
j
EDIT: It would be nice to have everything available in the Logos.com store. IMHO
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alabama24 said:
I compared EVERY book with Amazon last night. I guess I was bored. Most books were within $1.50 of the Amazon price, and with at least 4-5 books, Logos had the LOWER price. One book Amazon must be doing at a huge loss (they are selling it for less than $1). I bought the Donald Miller book last night. It was about $1 more than Amazon, however, I think $1 is a great price to be able to have the book in my Logos Library. I am not inclined to by "Christian Fiction." If I were, I would buy it at the cheapest price. Books by authors such as Francis Chan, Andy Stanley, John Maxwell, Dave Ramsey, etc. are ones that I would want in my Logos library. Perhaps I will end up doing a sermon series in the future and these books will benefit my study. I just wrote my final paper for my MDIV last month. I was very excited to find that some of my old textbooks, which I had added to my Logos Library, were pulled up with my search results. I hope that I can never buy a print book again!
Justin
How were you able to search for books? I can only see the 25 promo books on the vyrso website, and none of them were anywhere close to what I read in seminary, with the exception of the Bonhoeffer book (I didn't read that one, but read other biographies on him). If you're referring to books in the general Logos catalogue, that's great and all - but that's not where my concern is. I suppose if you're going to do a sermon series on one of these books, it *might* make sense to have it in your Logos library. Although frankly I'm not sold on this. But at any rate, Vyrsos doesn't seem to be advertised to pastors or serious studiers - that's what Logos is for. Vyrsos seems to be more for the general public (hence the pushing of Christian fiction). Maybe I'll be wrong and the general Christian public will come out in droves for this ... but until that happens I'm skeptical.
Pastor, seminary trustee, and app developer. Check out my latest app for churches: The Church App
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Mark Barnes said:
I think you are missing something - principally the all-important role of the publishers:
- First, many publishers are very uneasy about Kindle, and will be very glad to see Amazon getting some competition, and will want to support that competition.
Perhaps. But if customers are not willing to pay the high prices, publishers won't see Vyrsos as serious competition. The ebook market right now is competing on price, product catalogue and platform availability - all of which Amazon and B&N are winning hands down, and probably Amazon over B&N. Publishers aren't going to bail on Amazon and B&N when they make up such a large portion of their sales. It's no different with Walmart. For years suppliers have cried out about how much they hate doing business with Walmart because Walmart puts enormous price pressures on them. Yet the suppliers have an option - they can simply not sell to Walmart. But they do because to pull out would mean to give up a huge market share.
Mark Barnes said:- Second, some major Christian publishers are still too small to be heavily promoted by Amazon. Logos may be able to negotiate better deals with these publishers, and perhaps even undercut Amazon. These publishers may even promote Vyrso to their own customers through their website and mailing list.
If they can undercut Amazon then yes, Vyrsos stands a chance. This has yet to be seen, and if it does happen it will probably be on a small scale. I suspect an emerging issue for ebook retailers is brand loyalty built on product availability. People don't want to have 3 or 4 or 5 different ereader apps on their devices for their different books. So if Amazon has everything they need they will be less likely to go shopping elsewhere. This is why I think there seems to be so much support for Vyrsos in these forums - people already are using Logos app as an ereader and would prefer all their books to be contained within the same 'library'. Unfortunately, that doesn't bode well for people not already using Logos, which is who Vyrsos is supposed to be for.
Mark Barnes said:- Third, the discounts on Vyrso books are not intended to be introductory offers, but permanent discounts.
That's good news - although as I stated before the prices at discount are still more expensive than Amazon for many of the books.
Mark Barnes said:- Fourth, they'll be some books that simply aren't available on the Kindle. If people wan't them, they'll have to get Vyrso. Once they're using it, they'll hopefully enjoy it and want more.
As I stated in my original post, this seems to be the only real strategy at play - exclusivity contracts. If not de jure contracts then de facto. Either way, the lack of competition is not something to rejoice over as a consumer and the possible offering for such books will remain pretty small.
Mark Barnes said:- Finally, many Christian consumers will be glad of a store that sells
only Christian books. They'll like getting better recommendations and
more relevant emails. cbd.com hasn't gone out of business even though
sometimes it's more expensive than amazon. Likewise Apple still sell eBooks even though for most books they're more expensive than Amazon.
cbd.com has a loyal base, and they also offer some products at cheaper prices. If Vyrsos can find a way to undercut Amazon on books, then they stand a chance - but from what we see so far that's not really the case. Apple has a huge loyalty base so it's no suprise that they sell ebooks. Although many speculate that the upcoming July 1 rule-change has been designed specifically to get more ebook sales on iBooks, thereby implying that they are struggling in this area.
Pastor, seminary trustee, and app developer. Check out my latest app for churches: The Church App
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Rev Chris-
I used only the 25 promo books for pricing. There are not any that I would use for sermon series per se, but at least three that might make it into special events like a men's retreat: (John Maxwell - The 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership; Dave Ramsey - The Total Money Makeover; John Eldredge - Wild at Heart). These books are just a start. Bob says that he expects 10,000 in the near future and perhaps 25,000+ by the end of the year. As for a sermon series, I would like to do "weird" by Craig Groeschell. Having this book in my library would make it easier to craft my own sermons, doing my own research, but using some of his ideas.
I don't know if they will make it in, but perhaps this additional focus will make it easier for C.S. Lewis's works to get in. Recently I had to recommend a book on grieving to someone. I would love to have "A Grief Observed" in my Logos Library.
Again, I reiterate, the pricing does seem to be competitive to me. Most books were within $1.50 in price and some books Logos had cheaper. Also, B&N is not doing "great." They are breathing hard to keep up with Amazon.
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alabama24 said:
Again, I reiterate, the pricing does seem to be competitive to me. Most books were within $1.50 in price and some books Logos had cheaper. Also, B&N is not doing "great." They are breathing hard to keep up with Amazon.
I'm glad you think the prices are competitive. We'll see how the market responds. $1.50 is still 15% higher than Kindle for a $10 book. Many of the books are less than $10, so the % is even higher. For instance, the first book "Heaven is for real" is listed at $8.50. That's $2.37 more than the Kindle offering, or 39%. Hardly competitive.
The other big factor is gift certificates. While Logos tells us this is something 'in the works', in all likelihood it will be another year or more before we see such capabilities. When Christmas comes around there will be lots of people buying ebooks for friends/family members. Amazon has a head start with their new ability to gift an ebook. Until Vyrsos comes up with something similar, they're going to lose out on a lot of potential sales.
Pastor, seminary trustee, and app developer. Check out my latest app for churches: The Church App
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Rev Chris -
The same book you cite is $8.99 on Nook. Logos has undercut Barnes & Nobel by 49 cents. Bob admitted that perhaps they made a mistake with the books they chose to list first, although I am not so sure. This is a "best seller" list from Thomas Nelson. Amazon will use many of these as "Lost Leaders" (i.e. Amazon is willing to LOSE money to LEAD you to become a customer). Price is not the only determining factor people use when considering a purchase. Personally, if a "chain" Christian Book Store does not provide excellent service, I have purchased my books elsewhere. That didn't stop the store from being full of people.
You are right about gift certificates. If the Vyrso store turns into what I hope it does, I hope I can ask everyone for Vyrso/Logos gift certificates for my Birthday & Christmas.
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alabama24 said:
Rev Chris -
The same book you cite is $8.99 on Nook. Logos has undercut Barnes & Nobel by 49 cents. Bob admitted that perhaps they made a mistake with the books they chose to list first, although I am not so sure. This is a "best seller" list from Thomas Nelson. Amazon will use many of these as "Lost Leaders" (i.e. Amazon is willing to LOSE money to LEAD you to become a customer).
I'm not saying I agree with Amazon's business practices - I'm simply making an observation. Amazon has lower prices. However publishers or retailers might view Amazon for doing this, most customers care about price and product availability. All I'm saying is Vyrsos is going to have a really tough time. The ebook market is very competitive. Logos has done well offering e-resources in the past, despite high prices, because they are going for a particular niche and offering functionality that Amazon can't compete on. With Vyrsos I see a move to try to compete on the broader e-book market and I just don't see that working as well. But time will tell.
Pastor, seminary trustee, and app developer. Check out my latest app for churches: The Church App
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Another interesting thing to consider is what will happen in June with the Kindle reader for iOS. I assume that Logos has some idea of how Apple's policy will effect them. If Apple does kick the Kindle off the iPad, that could obviously play into Logo's benefit.
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Speaking of Amazon's lost leaders... Here is a quote from electronista, in regard to Amazon's recent 99 cent sale of Lady Gaga's Album: "Billboard estimated that Amazon MP3 took a loss of $3.2 million on all its sales."
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you're right!!! I bought Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy for $15 (50% discount!) only to learn after reading your post that the book is available for Kindle (I use the Windows reader) at $9.90. That's a huge difference. The only advantage is that I have it in my Logos4 library.
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I am sure there are many benefits of Vyrso although I am undecided about whether I may use it. Like some others I will be guided by cost.
My biggest concern is what impact this has on other Logos products/resources. I am thinking particularly of features that have been promised for Logos4 but seem to be delayed, pre pubs that are put back and the Android app that has been on the drawing board for sooo long. With the commitment to 25000 books this year I suspect this has to impact unless of course the company has additional resources to support this new product.
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Colin Ware said:
I am sure there are many benefits of Vyrso although I am undecided about whether I may use it. Like some others I will be guided by cost.
My biggest concern is what impact this has on other Logos products/resources. I am thinking particularly of features that have been promised for Logos4 but seem to be delayed, pre pubs that are put back and the Android app that has been on the drawing board for sooo long. With the commitment to 25000 books this year I suspect this has to impact unless of course the company has additional resources to support this new product.
Couple weeks ago, Bob Pritchett posted => What Logos development is doing
The Mac Beta and PC Beta forums have threads about sync changes coming in Logos 4.3 Beta 6:
Tonya J Ross said:The re-writing of the sync feature is being done in order to pave the way for some exciting future features (groups, sharing, collaboration, etc.)
Looking forward to Logos 4 future feature improvements.
Observation: Logos announced Android application development on 1 Nov 2010 (almost 7 months ago). After reading about Angry Birds game port from iOS to Android (including many Android models not capable of playing game), personally not surprised by Logos app taking longer than Angry Birds for initial delivery. Also remember waiting longer from initial Logos announcement about Mac port until delivery (missed estimates by many months). If buying an Android device primarily for Logos use, recommend waiting for Logos app to ship first, then purchase Android device that is usable for Logos.
In contrast, Vyrso is the Logos iOS app without several features. Wonder about two Logos Android apps: "Bible +" and "Vyrso", whose initial capabilities are quite similar.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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John Fugh, Jr. said:
EDIT: It would be nice to have everything available in the Logos.com store. IMHO
[Y]
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Ward Walker said:John Fugh, Jr. said:
EDIT: It would be nice to have everything available in the Logos.com store. IMHO
Remember - the Vyrso store is in its "pre-release" state. Perhaps this will come when the store opens. Personally, however, I would not want to get bogged down by Amish love stories or "left behind" novels when I am browsing logos's website. It would need to be done very well.
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I bet Bob uses Apple. Could be wrong, I suppose, but I've had that impression for a few years now. Not that I begrudge folks their toys. But still...
I am getting the distinct impression that Logos is modeling itself after Apple...i.e. the company that markets itself as the top-shelf, high-end option. The Mac of Bible software...er, Bible publishing. Now...there is the Vyrso thingy. Cool idea that you have to pay through the nose for. That's not what I signed up for. I don't use Apple products...I even don't like them. They don't appeal to me. Besides, I have an operating principle that resists paying a premium for "slick-cool".
I'm starting to feel that Logos is getting away from its one-time core. I fully understand the concept of diversification. But I also believe in the concept of "dance with the one who brung you." It's even a Biblical concept (Mal. 2:14)--"wife of your youth" and all that. I think it's great that Logos is growing...in theory. But in practice, I feel like a wife who rarely receives her husband's attention. I use precisely 0% of the new-fangled gizmos that Logos has produced, with the exception of Reftagger on my website. I could do without that. What I need is for my BIBLE SOFTWARE to operate efficiently. It doesn't.
A friend liked how I am able to insert notes right into my Bible in Logos and have them pop-up in L3. He decided to get Logos for his Mac. I warned him that L4 couldn't do that, but he was so smitten with what I do, he wanted to do it too. He jumped into a larger base package...and for months afterward, he continued using a PDF version of the KJV on his smartphone. Why? He said he didn't like having his computer crash constantly, which is what happened every time he opened L4Mac. Eventually he upgraded his computer and he says he doesn't have crashing problems anymore, but he still isn't terribly happy with L4's notes. From what I have heard on this forum, L4Mac notes are much worse than L4 notes. I can barely comprehend that, since L4 notes are defective in the warp-and-woof. I don't really care how many new products, resources, etc. Logos produces. I want what I bought to WORK.
I posted well over a year ago that the NASB has hundreds of random bold-face letters scattered throughout it. It STILL does! It is my base Bible...in my BIBLE STUDY software program. It shouldn't have HUNDREDS of GLARING MISTAKES in it...either in L3 or L4.
If Bob wants his fancy touch-screen toys...fine, have them--just as soon as the Bible Software in this Bible Software company works how it is supposed to. Until then, Vyrso, Proclaim, Biblia.com, etc. etc. etc. are the enemy in my book.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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David -
I don't agree with you and don't want to be dragged into a fight, so I won't. I do want to point out that it is my understanding that Bob came from Microsoft. Based on some of the core decisions of Logos 4, it would seem that he still has those sympathies. For those of us in the Mac world, we are glad that with his MSFT background, he is paying us some attention.
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