Why are there so few Jewish resources?
It seems a pitty that the publications made by Logos are "PUSHED" by request. What has happened? Catholic publications are being maximised...
What does a researcher need? Jewish Resources.
There are many Jewish Commentaries. I dont care if they are against Christians, I do care what they teach in commentaries.
Out of the many jewish commentaries available there is Zero. (it is as if people think that they didn't think of it or something.) I know that there is a few 'jewish' publications (frutenbaums commentary works, and the mishna)
) but Logos doesn't even have the Common Commentary which most Jews would be aware of: Rashi's Commentary.
This seems like a misappropriation of Bible software if there is no Objective Jewish Commentaries.
You might say: well some of the Jewish Commentaries mightn't be classed as 'Christian commentaries'. I put it to you that alot of people wouldn't find alot of the materials as 'Christian' in their view (speaking of catholic works). The point is: getting first hand commentaries from the Jewish perspective regardless should be made available.
(And Logos's method of producing commentaries is bad in this way becuase it sells it self to the highest bidder - the catholics.......) (No offence intended to Catholics who disagree with at least some of the bad teachings in that sect)
So how about some Jewish commentaries, and producing software with spiritual accountability instead of the highest bidder?
kindest Christian regards.
Texas.
Comments
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There may be something specific you are looking for that's not there yet, but in general I am very pleased with the quantity of Jewish resources; it has become a favorite of mine in topic, and whenever I see something new come out I grab it. After all, I believe with many in how the roots of Christianity are Judaic (and further - Jesus says he came to fulfill the Law not abolish it).
In my library, I have 2 related collections of Jewish studies. "Jewish Torah" has the rule
TITLE:Torah OR SUBJECT:Torah OR mytag:Law
and has 24 resources. The much larger "Jewish Studies" has this for a rule
title:(Jew,Jewish,Messianic, Messiah,Judaism,Talmud,mishnah,temple) OR subject:(Jew,Jewish,Messianic,Messiah,Judaism,Talmud,mishnah) OR mytag:(Jew,JSOTS)
and has 365 resources! Your mileage may vary depending on what you consider "Jewish" as there could be many ways to define that!
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See http://www.logos.com/product/guide/judaica for a list of Jewish Resources, including the JPS commentaries. If you have particular resources in mind, you could post them in the Suggestions forum: http://community.logos.com/forums/28.aspx.
Different people speak differently around the English-speaking world, but I wonder if you're aware of how great the contrast is in some parts of the world between the tone of your posting and your sign-off ('kindest Christian regards'). In case you're not, your posting could be read as negative, anti-Catholic and highly confrontational. It may be intended to be kind and Christian, but not everyone who reads it will see it that way.
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Andrew Baguley said:
It may be intended to be kind and Christian, but not everyone who reads it will see it that way.
+1
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Texas Pete said:
Out of the many jewish commentaries available there is Zero.
Not quite correct. They do have the JPS Tanakh Commentary, and the JPS Classic Midrash Collection, besides some single commentaries (like ibn Ezra on Isaiah), and some Messianic commentaries.
But I certainly agree with you that we need more. One problem that's been hinted at is that the more Orthodox Jewish publishers may not be willing to work with a Christian counterpart, so some books we'd like may simply be impossible for Logos to get the rights to. But they've clearly got good relations with JPS and there must be lots in Public Domain, so there should be plenty to start with.
As for Catholics: the people who most push for Jewish resources on these forums generally tend to be more or less Catholic, so if you want such, you really ought to be nicer to them. [;)] And the main reason Logos is producing fairly many Catholic resources right now is because they've produced next to none in the past, so there's a huge hole to be filled. They're also working on filling some other holes, like anabaptist resources.
If you want to be more constructive, go to the Suggestions forum and add your support to threads like:
- Works by Maimonides, Nachmanides and Rashi
- Suggestions: Books and Commentaries
- SUGGESTION: Urim Publications
- Tosefta trans. by Jacob Neusner and/or Suggestion: Neusner's Translation of the Tosefta
- SUGGESTION: Mishnah, Tosefta, Talmud, and Midrash in HEBREW (preferably with vowel and cantillation marks)
- The Zohar : Jewish Mysticism
- SUGGESTION: a companion to our Talmuds
- SUGGESTION: Jacob Neusner's 'A Rabbi talks with Jesus'
- Suggestion: A Rabbinic Commentary on the New Testament by Samuel Tobias Lochs
- Jewish NT commentary!
Or start your own thread in that forum with a concrete list of what you want.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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fgh said:
If you want to be more constructive, go to the Suggestions forum and add your support to threads like:
...
fgh,
I found some of these suggestions as I was looking into Rashi for this post. It seems you have more of an interest here than most. I have to admit, I knew even less than I do now, but am I right in saying that both versions of the Talmud available in Logos include Rashi's comments? (I think some may have been edited out, and at times it seems to enter the domain of supercommentary, by commenting on Rashi's comments.) There are certainly many search results on Rashi in my library. The JPS, ICC and Keil and Delitzsch commentaries in particular seem to comment on Rashi's comments quite a bit.
Also, I like your suggestion about being constructive. Do you know how much Logos takes note of user comments within the Suggestions forum? I'm sure they note the suggestions, but I wonder if there is any evidence (or much evidence) that they note later comments within the threads. (I hope so, as I've tried to encourage the same in a couple of threads I've started, but I wondered if there was any evidence that they do.)
Thanks.
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Andrew Baguley said:
(I think some may have been edited out, and at times it seems to enter the domain of supercommentary, by commenting on Rashi's comments.)
I am one who agrees with you that Jewish commentaries and other resources are necessary. I would love to see Rashi, Rashbam, Ramban, et. al. However, your suggestion that Rashi has been "edited out" is unlikely as Rashi is several centuries after the main Talmudic times. I think I've shared this timeline before:
NB. It my observation that there is considerable overlap between those wanting Anglican-Catholic-Eastern Church-Lutheran-Orthodox resources and those wanting Jewish resources.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
NB. It my observation that there is considerable overlap between those wanting Anglican-Catholic-Eastern Church-Lutheran-Orthodox resources and those wanting Jewish resources.
I believe you are absolutely correct—at least, I (Anglican) would like to have them.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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MJ. Smith said:Andrew Baguley said:
(I think some may have been edited out, and at times it seems to enter the domain of supercommentary, by commenting on Rashi's comments.)
..., your suggestion that Rashi has been "edited out" is unlikely as Rashi is several centuries after the main Talmudic times.
Sorry, MJ. That wasn't very clear, was it? I didn't mean to suggest that Rashi contributed to the original Talmud.
According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashi) "Rashi's commentary, which covers nearly all of the Babylonian Talmud (a total of 30 tractates), has been included in every version of the Talmud since its first printing in the fifteenth century. It is always situated towards the middle of the opened book display; i.e., on the side of the page closest to the binding." I know Wikipedia isn't always reliable, but this does seem believable, especially given the accompanying jpg. However, the English translations in Logos appear to treat Rashi's comments quite differently, sometimes including them, but sometimes editing them out. For example, in b. Shabb. 1:1, there is a note that "Rashi explains at length how eight or even twelve instances of transfer could occur, but, not being essential to the subject, we omit the explanation." This is what I meant by edited out. Rashi's comments are not part of the original Talmud, but are usually now included in printings, but the Rodkinson version in Logos sometimes includes the commentary, but sometimes edits it out.
I'm afraid I don't always spend this long on writing quick forum posts, so clarity can be lost in the process.
By the way, what's your source for the timelines you produce? I seem to remember you produced an interesting timeline of Prayer Books on a previous post.
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Andrew Baguley said:
I know Wikipedia isn't always reliable, but this does seem believable,
Well, I never say "every" but this matches what I know from other sources - sort of like the glossa ordinaria for Christian scripture. Do you think we should ask Logos to change their default layout to match tradition?[:)]
Andrew Baguley said:By the way, what's your source for the timelines you produce?
Usually it's information I find on the web - often multiple sources. This one, however, I think is wikipedia.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Andrew Baguley said:
am I right in saying that both versions of the Talmud available in Logos include Rashi's comments? (I think some may have been edited out, and at times it seems to enter the domain of supercommentary, by commenting on Rashi's comments.)
The Talmud in itself consists of the Mishnah and the Gemara. In Logos, the Mishnah is a separate resource, and what is called 'Talmud' is actually only the Gemara, just as when Logos publishes a study Bible we normally only get the notes and are expected to already have whatever Bible we want to use it with. (Actually, it's quite common outside Logos as well to talk about the Talmud, when you're only really referring to the Gemara.)
It is true that the Talmud text has often in the past been published surrounded by Rashi's and others' commentaries, but those are not in fact part of the Talmud itself. It's just a convenient pre-Logos way of combining things on the same page instead of forcing people to cover their desks with a whole bunch of huge volumes.
Andrew Baguley said:Do you know how much Logos takes note of user comments within the Suggestions forum? I'm sure they note the suggestions, but I wonder if there is any evidence (or much evidence) that they note later comments within the threads. (I hope so, as I've tried to encourage the same in a couple of threads I've started, but I wondered if there was any evidence that they do.)
We've been told that they always read and chart all suggestions sent to suggest@logos.com. They're supposed to read the Suggestions forum as well, but they always tend to push for the e-mail address as the safest venue to get heard.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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I like the fact that Logos provides a way to purchase what we want. There was a study Bible based upon the NKJV (which I already owned and don't use very much) I was able to purchase the notes separately.
I too would love to see more Jewish resources available. I have not been able to purchase as many as I want, but plan to as finances allow.
One resource you may which to consider is the http://www.logos.com/product/384/tanakh-the-holy-scriptures which is a Jewish (rather than Christian) translation of the Hebrew Bible.
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fgh said:
In Logos, the Mishnah is a separate resource, and what is called 'Talmud' is actually only the Gemara,
I think the Rodkinson version in Logos includes the Mishnah. The Neusner doesn't appear to include it though.
fgh said:They're supposed to read the Suggestions forum as well, but they always tend to push for the e-mail address as the safest venue to get heard.
That's not quite the level of evidence (or even confidence) I was hoping for, especially as I was asking about later comments within threads. It's along the lines of what I expected though. Thanks.
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Andrew Baguley said:
According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashi) "Rashi's commentary, which covers nearly all of the Babylonian Talmud (a total of 30 tractates), has been included in every version of the Talmud since its first printing in the fifteenth century.
That may be true for the original text, but I'm not sure it's necessarily true for translations.
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Philana Crouch said:
One resource you may which to consider is the http://www.logos.com/product/384/tanakh-the-holy-scriptures which is a Jewish (rather than Christian) translation of the Hebrew Bible.
Noticed that the Complete Jewish Bible is not mentioned here:
JK
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I think this thread has pretty much left the point the OP was making. Indeed I agree with him; outside notes in the Tanakh and maybe the JPS volumes, it's pretty sparse if any. Even the really tame Jewish Study Bible is not carried (I have it separately in Olivetree).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I've been requesting the Jewish Study Bible for years. Now I want to add the recent NT volume as well, an NRSV annotated by the same Jewish scholars who did the JSB.
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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A big thank you to you, Ben. I did NOT know that (NRSV/annotated = JSB). I got so disappointed with the NT annotated version, it got moved into my closet. I'll have to get it back!
But I agree on the JSB. It's been quite useful in class at church when we want a 'sort of' jewish thought process on a section (recognizing it's definitely not on the conservative jewish side of the house).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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It would be nice to have some of the ArtScroll library like the Stone Edition Tanakh and the Schottenstein Edition Talmud.
Director of Zoeproject
www.zoeproject.com
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Tony Thomas said:
It would be nice to have some of the ArtScroll library like the Stone Edition Tanakh and the Schottenstein Edition Talmud.
[Y][Y][Y][Y][Y] [Y][Y][Y][Y][Y] (I'm all thumbs tonight)
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Tony Thomas said:
It would be nice to have some of the ArtScroll library like the Stone Edition Tanakh and the Schottenstein Edition Talmud.
(I'm all thumbs tonight)Me too (except it's not 'tonight' here), but this is a General thread. It's isn't likely to be read by the right people at Logos. Anyone wanting their support for Jewish resources to be heard needs to use the Suggestions forum and suggest@logos.com.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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well Im glad to see that there has been some discussion.
1. I will foward the original post, and link to this discussion to the suggested email.
2. I acknowledge the 'anti-catholic' kind suggestions - thanks for taking my post the nice way. I tend to post with a bit of flair, but with nice intention :-)
3. MJ. Smith nice looking pic :-) ... but im just a whipper snipper :-)
4. the main publication i'd like to see is "Rabbeinu Bachya: Commentary on the Torah". If you look it up, that sounds like a cool work to have.
best regards to all.
Texas.
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Texas Pete said:
the main publication i'd like to see is "Rabbeinu Bachya: Commentary on the Torah".
I presume that would be this one: Torah Commentary: Midrash Rabbeinu Bachya (7-volume set).
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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hi. yes, but that link doesn't really explain the quality depth that it should. (i've not read it, but i've looked in to it thoroughly) - i'd be suprised if anyone didn't want this from what i've read (compared to large repetition of common Christian commentaries - which I appreciate very much for affirmation, but still repetitious and string quote's of quote's directly or indirectly)
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Hello everyone, we are seeking advice on which Jewish commentary(ies) to purchase if our intent is to glean from the Rabbi's on topical issues in the Tanack (& even NT scrpitures). We have looked at all the resources, but were hoping to actually get a referral from an actual Logos user. Reading this back, I'm not so sure it's clear, but we are open to suggestions...and questions for clarifications. Thanks!
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Some Jews, particularly religious ones, can be a bit insular. There obviously are exceptions to this rule, but it is true of a certain segment. I think that some would have serious issues with using software that so clearly promotes Christianity, even though there is a broad desire to have Jewish resources included within the Logos library. For that reason, it may be difficult to entice some publishers to contract with Logos. But I'm sure that many things are available either through being public domain, or through agreements with more open publishers.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Thanks David. Do you use any of Logo's resources yourself? If so, which ones do you find most helpful?
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LOL...that's a big question. I use many Logos resources. I use many of the Hebrew resources regularly, like Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament. I own the Portfolio and many additional resources. I make frequent use of both Hebrew and Greek lexicons. I have both Talmuds, well....let me just post a pic:
The above is not all of the Jewish-related stuff in my library, but a good cross section. There are other items I want to add...I seem to have overlooked getting the Mishna, so I will have to remedy that when I have a chance. I'm actually surprised that wasn't INCLUDED IN THE PORTFOLIO!!!! [8o|] Like others have suggested, getting a good smattering of significant Jewish commentaries would be welcomed.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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A few comments...
First of all, I wouldn't say that there are "none" or even "few" Jewish resources in Logos. I own the CJB, Logos has a couple copies of the Tenakh, and Logos has a solid set of resources from JPS, as well as the link someone shared shows a good list of Jewish resources, and I've seen more on PrePub as well.
So Logos has published Jewish resources, and some solid ones at that.
With that said, true, it'd be great if Logos offered even more Jewish resources. It'd be a way to compete with other platforms (such as Accordance) and widen their user base even further.
I also agree with the statement someone made about the Catholic resources. For years Logos published some Catholic resources (Disclaimer: I'm not Catholic), but they weren't extensive, and Catholics wanting to embrace Logos probably had a difficult time considering them. With the addition of the Catholic resources we've seen on PrePub, the new Verbum collections, and with Logos hiring a Catholic to oversee the department, Logos is venturing into an area where they can broaden their user base there.
What Logos needs to do is simply implement a similar strategy to target the Jewish market and extend their Jewish resources available in Logos format. The way to do this would be as follows:
- Hire a Jewish person (such as a Messianic Jew) that could oversee the coordination and licensing of Jewish resources into Logos format. With a Jewish person overseeing the coordination, Jewish companies would be more willing to work with someone they can relate to, very similar to the way Logos is doing with Catholic resources today. I can actually think of one they could consider hiring. :-)
- Create a new series of Jewish base collections similar to what their doing with the Verbum collections for Catholics. These collections would be based on the L5 engine, contain a lot of the same datasets, but be primarily targeted for Jewish studies, allowing Jews to spend more time in studying the Word. If the Tenakh could be syntax-tagged, etc., it'd be great.
- Release more Jewish resources on PrePub as a result of the coordination/licensing of Jewish resources, which would allow Jews and Christians wishing to take their Bible study to another level purchase the resources in Logos format.
It's a fairly simple strategy. Logos has a good foundation already with JPS and a few other companies. All it takes it building upon it.
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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Nathan Parker said:
Hire a Jewish person (such as a Messianic Jew) that could oversee the coordination and licensing of Jewish resources into Logos format. With a Jewish person overseeing the coordination, Jewish companies would be more willing to work with someone they can relate to
Hiring a Messianic Jew to deal with Jewish publishers would more likely kill all chances to get them onboard, and might very well seriously harm the relationship with JPS as well. Jews don't generally see Messianic Jews as Jews; they see them as apostates. To many or most they are traitors who've betrayed the whole Jewish people and joined the arch enemy. There are still plenty of Jewish families who'd sit shiva if a son or daughter became Christian, tell their friends the child has died, and new acquaintances they'd never even had it. And Messianic Jews are seen as ten times worse than 'normal' Christians: a wolf that looks like a wolf is less dangerous than a wolf that dresses up like a sheep. Also, some groups of Messianic Jews have quite a bit of contempt for rabbinic Judaism.
But if we strike that parenthesis, I agree with your suggestions.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Since I already alluded to it above, I will simply say that I was going to pretty much say what fgh said for me.
Actually, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea for Logos to create an Orthodox Judaism base package or two. Perhaps they could even crank out a few Lexham resources for Jewish resources. I simply have a hard time believing that many serious Jews would buy a Logos base package as they are currently configured. At the very least, it might make for some interesting forum conversations! Oi vey!
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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I am all for more Jewish collections [Y]
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Blair Laird said:
I am all for more Jewish collections
+1 [Y] for more Jewish resources and collection(s).
Noticed a search for Jewish on Logos.com finds 844 products, including 53 by Jewish Publication Society, several notable resources are included in various Logos 5 packages.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Toda David! That pix was very helpful [:D] And I do agree that Logos should have an Orthodox Jewish Section; I suspect that would appeal to many Jewish (all 'sects') scholars. Thanks again!
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The original was a favourite of mine and would love to have this updated version in Logos.
-Dan
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For those of you who haven't yet found out, there is now a Jewish suggestion at Logos' new Uservoice site for prepubs: Add more Jewish works. Please go add your votes. And then add the remainder of your votes to other suggestions -- preferably mine.
(There is also a new Uservoice site for CP's, with another ten new votes for you to spend: http://communitypricing.uservoice.com/forums/183260-general/filters/top. That too has a Jewish suggestion: Add more Jewish works to CP.)
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