Sync Feature via Email & Password Activation Insecurites

I'm sure there are many circumstances that makes Logos 4 Sync Feature / Email & Password activation disrespectful of a buyer's security. For example, many people have children and had no problems installing Logos 3 for them. Everything they did on that machine was their own problem so to speak. We simply installed the Key file or sent it to them and they were off to the races. Not so in Logos 4. Email & Password loss or misuse is much more insecure than loss of a Key file. A Key logger for example needs only to see what you typed as opposed to hacking your machine and looking for a Key file that may not even be on that machine.

So if / when a computer or an easier Email & Password is stolen or misused, one can logon to Logos.com and buy up everything if you left a credit card on file. Also, does everyone have children or family they fully trust to NEVER find a reason to misuse your personal account Email & Password that activates Logos 4? So you may also easily lose years of work / markup settings for any unwanted install or misuse of your account info due to the online Sync Feature. I'm pretty sure I know the underlying reason why they "sold" this thought of installing Logos 4 on all of ones computers with a sync feature. I'll leave that for my in-depth blogs. Anyways, how is that share friendly when one can no longer install Logos 4 for his own child, because your own settings will be manipulated? Am I being manipulated / forced to spend thousands of dollars for my children to secure my own primary machine from being manipulated in what is supposed to be a share friendly / secure Sync Feature? Or maybe my CHILDREN are being forced to spend the thousands. Hmm...

Proposed Fix:

1. Disable Email & Password activation (I've read this is possible now but with hassles).

2. Have option to ALLOW sync feature across designated computers via separate shared User Name / Password(s)

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Comments

Michael Birney

The EULA (software license agreement) says you can put it on as many computers as you use personally, not your kids, and in reality, not even your wife, and definitely not your friends. So your post actually admits to breaking the EULA for 3, and asks Logos to change the password activation to make it easier for you to break the EULA for 4.

No you cannot share the program to your kids just because you bought it. You can't do it for any program you pay for - windows, games, music you buy.

You are being forced to spend money for your children to have their own copy, that is true, that is the way software sales work.

I think you better rethink your post, your admitting to breaking the law.

Michael Birney

So I got this by e-mail update on this thread, but then when I came to the thread it was already gone.

(I deleted the sender)

Michael Birney: your admitting to breaking the law.

poster - Which law exactly.....?

Well, of the 10 commandments it would be 8, "You shall not steal."

Not sure where you live, but in the US, it would be called stealing, and when you are caught doing it to say microsoft, even if it was by mistake, they try and take a lot of your money from you.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

Regarding installing for wife and family, please see Bob's opinion at http://community.logos.com/forums/p/341/3265.aspx#3265

Damian McGrath

Michael,

that was me... I thought that you'd come on a bit strong and then I re-read the first post and realised that you were spot on and so I deleted my post.

The ability to quickly delete posts is a blessing as is the ability to edit them.

Given that I had deleted my post there was no need to reply to it....

(I really don't need to have the 10 commandments quoted to me - but, for your information, for Catholics and Lutherans, the commandment to not steal is no. 7)

Matt

You can't do it for any program you pay for - windows, games, music you buy.

Actually untrue. Microsoft's EULA is typically per machine and they even advertise Mom, Dad, the kids, etc. all having their own accounts on the one machine and being able to save their individual settings. There is something about only one person using the software at a time, but I'm not sure how that all works out in the nitty gritty. Bottom line is that they don't want their software installed on more than one machine unless the proper number of licenses have been purchased for it.

Also, as regards music, if that were true, then I wouldn't be able to let my kids listen to any of the CDs I've purchased over the years.

I'm merely correcting this because I don't want anyone to be misinformed and therefore worrying about being a thief needlessly.

Matt

Matthew C Jones

(I really don't need to have the 10 commandments quoted to me - but, for your information, for Catholics and Lutherans, the commandment to not steal is no. 7)

Warning: Totally Off-Topic Post. But I just have to ask:

Damian,

Can you please enlighten me on what the 10 commandments are for Lutherans & Catholics. You can leave a "private message" on my forum profile page. Maybe you can direct me to a Logos resource or Vatican website. My interest is piqued. I will begin my quest

In all sincerity, Matthew

Michael Birney

Damian,

You are right, both times. I came on too strong, and then lectured you as I responded to your deleted post. It was stupid of me, I apologize.

Commandment 7? Really? Are 2 of them combined, or moved around or? I'm really asking, please don't read this any other way. Exodus 20 is where I found the list below (I'm guessing you know that, I had to look it up). Again, given my previous post, I want to make sure you understand, I am really asking, not being a jerk.

1 - ³ “You shall have no other gods before me.

2. ⁴ “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, ....

3. ⁷ “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.

4. ⁸ “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

5. ¹²“Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

6 ¹³ “You shall not murder.

7 ¹⁴ “You shall not commit adultery.

8. ¹⁵“You shall not steal.

9. ¹⁶“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

10. ¹⁷“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife,

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ex 20:3-17). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

Matthew C Jones

Bottom line is that they don't want their software installed on more than one machine unless the proper number of licenses have been purchased for it.

Also, as regards music, if that were true, then I wouldn't be able to let my kids listen to any of the CDs I've purchased over the years.

The original post sounds like adult children are using a duplicate installation of ONE Logos license to avoid paying for their own. This is theft. No wonder the posting parent has concerns. If my kids were willing to use stolen software they might also misuse my credit card information. [:O]

Applying this same conduct to music would be like making copies of your CD collection and giving those copies to you family and friends so they can avoid purchasing their own, the whole time retaining the original so the artist loses a sale for every copy you made. Theft again.

Michael Birney

As I said above, I was too strong I apologize.

The point I was trying to make with windows was you put it on one computer, you can't then send the program to your kids to use on theirs. When you download a song from ITunes, you can't then send it to your kids to use on their computers (although the newer network sharing allows for limited ability to do this).

Sorry for being harsh in my posts.

Damian McGrath

Michael,

No worries....

Michael and Matthew

I posted this on Matthew's user page:

Info can be found on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments#Catholic_and_Lutheran_Christianity

The Catholic Catechism on the commandments here: http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/decalog.html

It's all based on Augustine...

Abbreviated Catholic Ten Commandments:

I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.
You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain
Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day
Honor your father and your mother
You shall not kill
You shall not commit adultery
You shall not steal
You shall not bear false witness
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
You shall not covet your neighbor's goods

Dave Hooton

Proposed Fix:

1. Disable Email & Password activation (I've read this is possible now but with hassles).

It is no hassle to force someone to work offline by NOT suppling the sign-in details. They just have to start L4 holding the Ctrl key. If there is no internet connection it will work off-line automatically. You can update off-line via occasional install DVD's or more regularly (a slight "hassle"), but this will avoid the sync issue.

Ariyl

Sir, you sound like an Adversary to Biblical truth or one who does not have a clue about it nor lives by it. What a shame you take a standard EULA to an extreme and disrespect the fact that the Savior taught in Scripture: LET the children also come to me. Children weren't charged Tithes or Fees to enter the gates etc in order to hear and learn the Word of Yahweh. Adults were. So the children were FREE FROM / LET / ALLOWED. Yet it sounds like you would have rebelled and sat at the gates and CHARGED children against what the Savior taught, because "Rome or whatever has a "law" that says such and such". Whatever law man makes is their problem. I believe in the Laws in the Scriptures as is taught. I don't need replies from people who disrespect Scriptural Laws over man's perverted "laws" First learn to love the teaching of Scripture over man's money making ventures. There is nothing to rethink. I don't think Logos is that stupid to disrespect Scriptural truth for money.

Ariyl

Now, I might be getting somewhere. But initally, the Email/Password Account info must be entered in order to initially install the resources, right? From what I understand, it must connect to Logos servers to sync licensest? So how do you FORCE someone to remember to disable L4 from getting online with that command after the fact? Once L4 is initally installed and licences are synced, the Email/Password is stored, so it has free access to Sync everytime it runs (unless one FORCES another to remember that command when starting L4?). Even still, there is the problem with theft. Someone can still damage years of work. But do explain further if I've missed something concerning the activation.

Rich DeRuiter

Sir, you sound like an Adversary to Biblical truth or one who does not have a clue about it nor lives by it. What a shame you take a standard EULA to an extreme and disrespect the fact that the Savior taught in Scripture: LET the children also come to me. Children weren't charged Tithes or Fees to enter the gates etc in order to hear and learn the Word of Yahweh. Adults were. So the children were FREE FROM / LET / ALLOWED. Yet it sounds like you would have rebelled and sat at the gates and CHARGED children against what the Savior taught, because "Rome or whatever has a "law" that says such and such". Whatever law man makes is their problem. I believe in the Laws in the Scriptures as is taught. I don't need replies from people who disrespect Scriptural Laws over man's perverted "laws" First learn to love the teaching of Scripture over man's money making ventures. There is nothing to rethink. I don't think Logos is that stupid to disrespect Scriptural truth for money.

You aren't serious, are you?

If you ever go into a Christian bookstore and hand your child a Bible off the shelf and, using this same argument, try to walk out of the store without paying, let me know. I want to watch what happens. Your argument doesn't hold up.

I'm glad you love your children and want them to get a full grasp of the Truth found in the Scriptures. But there's no reason to attack a brother in the Lord like this, comparing him to an "Adversary" (your capital), suggesting 'the adversary' namely Satan. That, brother, is also disrespecting the teaching of Scripture (Ephesians 4:29-32, e.g.).

The Logos EULA, which you had to agree to when you installed the software, specifically states that you may have it for one user. Bob, in a statement he made here (see discussion cited by Bradly above) says that he doesn't mind if spouses and young children share a copy, under the right circumstances. And in fact, what you're asking about probably fits within those guidelines.

As for what it is you're wanting. I think you need to understand that if you're using software in a way other than it was intended, you're going to have problems. Sometimes these are big, sometimes they're small.

EDIT: I reread your original post. You speak of 'sending' keys and such via email. If you are sending these to adult children outside your home, you are in violation of the EULA, no matter how loosely it may be construed.

Larry Schmid

If you ever go into a Christian bookstore and hand your child a Bible off the shelf and, using this same argument, try to walk out of the store without paying, let me know. I want to watch what happens. Your argument doesn't hold up.

No, but the whole DRM thing is slipperier than that. I can go to a bookstore accompanied by my child, pick out and pay for a Bible and leave. When I am standing outside the store, I fully expect to be able to hand my child that Bible without the store manager coming out and accusing me of wrongdoing.

Similarly, I also have a largish print library in my house. My children have access to and the right to use any of those books. However, the concept of one-book-one license-one user cuts right across that normal practice.

I don't advocate violating the EULA, and Bob's postings on this seem to allow some freedom of conscience for occasional family use. Many things such as movies, CDs, books, etc. are legitimately bought for family use. I believe that in the long term, the push for stricter per-user licensing, even in the family setting is going to create a backlash.

[edit] re: backlash; I was referring to this in the context of any digital content, not just Logos. Just wanted to make that clear.

my $.02

Larry

Ariyl

You aren't serious, are you?

If you ever go into a Christian bookstore and hand your child a Bible off the shelf and, using this same argument, try to walk out of the store without paying, let me know. I want to watch what happens. Your argument doesn't hold up.

Sir, you err in your analagy. You are comparing a literal TAKING of two tangible objects from OUT OF a store (OUT OF another's POSSESSION). I'm talking about the USE OF what I have bought and now have IN MY OWN POSSESSION. We are talking about the Lawful USE OF a software and not the acquiring OWNERSHIP of a separate tangible object. You not only hastily jumped in this, but your "analogy" calls me a thief. Children weren't ALLOWED to enter the Temple freely to TAKE/STEAL any tangible thing OUT OF it. But they benefitted freely from its USE. But never mind trying to comprehend that point. Hopefully you will see the other dangerous and underlying problems before you pay dearly down the road with this software.

Ariyl

The original post sounds like adult children are using a duplicate installation of ONE Logos license to avoid paying for their own. This is theft. No wonder the posting parent has concerns. If my kids were willing to use stolen software they might also misuse my credit card information.

Applying this same conduct to music would be like making copies of your CD collection and giving those copies to you family and friends so they can avoid purchasing their own, the whole time retaining the original so the artist loses a sale for every copy you made. Theft again.

How did you come to the conclusin that I have adult children? Please explain your logic to us all why you would go there. For your information, I have two minor children and one that barely made adulthood. Let's not make assumptiions that may cause one to be swayed or not grasp the concern. The concern is for those with children and without, since there is also a theft issue. You should read everything carefully.

Sir, iTunes promotes HOME FILE SHARING. Have you ever heard of the gift of SHARING? Are you a captialist? Has it ever dawned on you that the Devil hates the concept of shariing with your family, because it promotes unity and eases oppression? Its called BRAINWASHING one to think Stealing and Sharing are synonymous. Most EULA are wirtten due to what others (government, persons, vendors, companies etc) that are being dealt with want. One man did not write L4, nor owns all the L4's Books. Many others holding various licenses are involved. It's like making a deal with the Devil. The Devil is greedy for money, but your focus is getting the Word of Yahweh out by any means.You are not going to hear a company publicly tell you they permit what is not in their EULA. They would lose contracts, money, and that ultimate opportunity to get their production out. It is a compromised EULA. It is not the last word. We should all know Who has the last word, so read on and understand what the Last Word is in Truth. Stand up for your true rights and children.

Ariyl

EDIT: I reread your original post. You speak of 'sending' keys and such via email. If you are sending these to adult children outside your home, you are in violation of the EULA, no matter how loosely it may be construed.

Richard, just what is your point with these irrelevant assumptions? You do a lot of ASSUMING don't you? What exactly is your motive with these assumptions? Can your mind comprehend the circumstances of many people having minor children that don't live with them and thus have the need to email them info for various reasons? Can you grasp the problem of having minor children who could no longer use this software without the risks that are being spoken of here? If you can grasp how one's child cannot use this software without said risks, why in the world are you throwing these outlandish and irrelevant assumptions in here?! Because not once have you spoken up for the children in this predicament. So I now question your motives here. TRY TO FOCUS ON THAT instead of irrelevant assumptions. So your trying to tell me about an EULA because of your remark needs no reply. I'm pretty aware of what Logos any many others use as a standard EULA. But you NEED to understand this: I DON'T LIVE BY MAN'S WORDS, I LIVE BY THE WORDS OF YAHWEH That is, man's words, traditions etc don't rule my moral actions. I'm not a brainwashed slave of Rome.

Michael Birney

Sir, you sound like an Adversary to Biblical truth or one who does not have a clue about it nor lives by it. What a shame you take a standard EULA to an extreme and disrespect the fact that the Savior taught in Scripture: LET the children also come to me. Children weren't charged Tithes or Fees to enter the gates etc in order to hear and learn the Word of Yahweh. Adults were. So the children were FREE FROM / LET / ALLOWED. Yet it sounds like you would have rebelled and sat at the gates and CHARGED children against what the Savior taught, because "Rome or whatever has a "law" that says such and such". Whatever law man makes is their problem. I believe in the Laws in the Scriptures as is taught. I don't need replies from people who disrespect Scriptural Laws over man's perverted "laws" First learn to love the teaching of Scripture over man's money making ventures. There is nothing to rethink. I don't think Logos is that stupid to disrespect Scriptural truth for money.

I don't mind being called names, or responding to criticism, but it would help if I could figure out what you are trying to say. If you are trying to say I am keeping the Word from you, your family and the world by pointing out that you are breaking the law by sharing Logos, I don't think that holds much water - there is at least one free bible program available (the sword), download that and share it all you want.

You criticizing my faith or my love of my Lord or scripture because you want to justify stealing seems kind of hypocritical.

Ariyl

I don't mind being called names, or responding to criticism, but it would help if I could figure out what you are trying to say. If you are trying to say I am keeping the Word from you, your family and the world by pointing out that you are breaking the law by sharing Logos, I don't think that holds much water - there is at least one free bible program available (the sword), download that and share it all you want.

You criticizing my faith or my love of my Lord or scripture because you want to justify stealing seems kind of hypocritical.

From where have you deceived yourself into believing that you have ponted out that I am breaking the law by sharing Logos? Are you going to cite man's roman law to me and demand that I have faith in it? That would be foolish. You sure aren't going to cite the Truth.

Why would you try to convince me to resort to a limited freeware to educate my children, while I have Logos 4? How wicked a thought! Show yourself. I'm amused now. Oh, I see who you have love for...