Sync Feature via Email & Password Activation Insecurites
Comments
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Ariyl said:
Sir, you sound like an Adversary to Biblical truth or one who does not have a clue about it nor lives by it. What a shame you take a standard EULA to an extreme and disrespect the fact that the Savior taught in Scripture: LET the children also come to me. Children weren't charged Tithes or Fees to enter the gates etc in order to hear and learn the Word of Yahweh. Adults were. So the children were FREE FROM / LET / ALLOWED. Yet it sounds like you would have rebelled and sat at the gates and CHARGED children against what the Savior taught, because "Rome or whatever has a "law" that says such and such". Whatever law man makes is their problem. I believe in the Laws in the Scriptures as is taught. I don't need replies from people who disrespect Scriptural Laws over man's perverted "laws" First learn to love the teaching of Scripture over man's money making ventures. There is nothing to rethink. I don't think Logos is that stupid to disrespect Scriptural truth for money.
You aren't serious, are you?
If you ever go into a Christian bookstore and hand your child a Bible off the shelf and, using this same argument, try to walk out of the store without paying, let me know. I want to watch what happens. Your argument doesn't hold up.
I'm glad you love your children and want them to get a full grasp of the Truth found in the Scriptures. But there's no reason to attack a brother in the Lord like this, comparing him to an "Adversary" (your capital), suggesting 'the adversary' namely Satan. That, brother, is also disrespecting the teaching of Scripture (Ephesians 4:29-32, e.g.).
The Logos EULA, which you had to agree to when you installed the software, specifically states that you may have it for one user. Bob, in a statement he made here (see discussion cited by Bradly above) says that he doesn't mind if spouses and young children share a copy, under the right circumstances. And in fact, what you're asking about probably fits within those guidelines.
As for what it is you're wanting. I think you need to understand that if you're using software in a way other than it was intended, you're going to have problems. Sometimes these are big, sometimes they're small.
EDIT: I reread your original post. You speak of 'sending' keys and such via email. If you are sending these to adult children outside your home, you are in violation of the EULA, no matter how loosely it may be construed.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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MikeWaterhouse said:Chris Elford said:
Phil!!!! Right now you can't talk about pretty Avatars!!
What you don't like puppies?
I don't mean this to be harsh but regarding the original post, if I go to the home page and click on my email address it takes me to a login screen. It doesn't automatically log me in. If I don't know the my password I can't access my account or post to a forum. Considering that most online stores use an email address we provide for identification I don't feel that this is an issue. After all, spammers have no problem finding our email addresses. The convenience of downloading resources when I need to reinstall is worth it to me, just like the convenience of being able to buy things over the internet. Some of the other forums mentioned an option to install Logos completely offline for people with slow of no internet access if this is a real concern.
Concerning the Email/Password activation threat itself, this concerns unwanted use or theft. One problem is that this Email/Password is the SAME to logon to your Logos Account. A Keylogger can get this fairly easily. Unlike a Keylogger getting the traditional Serial Number or Key File, they can't LOGIN TO YOUR ONLIINE ACCOUNT WITH THEM. People have Credit Card info stored there! Hello! They can also change your Account Info and Password etc. Better yet, maybe they would want to send Tom, Dick and Harry a copy of Logos 4 ON YOU. And even with disgruntled or any potential mischievous former employee who had easy access to a persons Email & Password, one will always have to worry about having settings and lifelong work destroyed at will.
You can restore money stolen with this info, but sadly you CANNOT reverse the way L4 settings etc can easily be manipulated and destroyed with this info.
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Matt said:
As an experiment, I just utlized the 'Switch User' functionality within Windows 7 (also exists in Vista) to log on with two other accounts simultaneously with my current logon.
Matt, You make some good points about how Logos 4 gets installed differently than other software. I don't think they did that accidentally.
Your experiment with Windows 7 gave me an idea. How about running virtual machines for the children under W7. You can still have just one machine but isolate their installations from synching by blocking that VM from internet access. Is that feasible?
Back in the 90's I programmed for PCs & Macs. I was also hardware certified so I have mountains of stuff sitting around. I forget other people don't allow that level of computer clutter in their lives. (Eleven computers in this immediate room. Another laptop LCD was broken in the living room this morning. etc.) Unfortunately I am always installing software, re-formatting drives or something.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Richard DeRuiter said:
If you ever go into a Christian bookstore and hand your child a Bible off the shelf and, using this same argument, try to walk out of the store without paying, let me know. I want to watch what happens. Your argument doesn't hold up.
No, but the whole DRM thing is slipperier than that. I can go to a bookstore accompanied by my child, pick out and pay for a Bible and leave. When I am standing outside the store, I fully expect to be able to hand my child that Bible without the store manager coming out and accusing me of wrongdoing.
Similarly, I also have a largish print library in my house. My children have access to and the right to use any of those books. However, the concept of one-book-one license-one user cuts right across that normal practice.
I don't advocate violating the EULA, and Bob's postings on this seem to allow some freedom of conscience for occasional family use. Many things such as movies, CDs, books, etc. are legitimately bought for family use. I believe that in the long term, the push for stricter per-user licensing, even in the family setting is going to create a backlash.
[edit] re: backlash; I was referring to this in the context of any digital content, not just Logos. Just wanted to make that clear.
my $.02
Larry
AKA WillyBurger
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Richard DeRuiter said:Ariyl said:
You aren't serious, are you?
If you ever go into a Christian bookstore and hand your child a Bible off the shelf and, using this same argument, try to walk out of the store without paying, let me know. I want to watch what happens. Your argument doesn't hold up.
Sir, you err in your analagy. You are comparing a literal TAKING of two tangible objects from OUT OF a store (OUT OF another's POSSESSION). I'm talking about the USE OF what I have bought and now have IN MY OWN POSSESSION. We are talking about the Lawful USE OF a software and not the acquiring OWNERSHIP of a separate tangible object. You not only hastily jumped in this, but your "analogy" calls me a thief. Children weren't ALLOWED to enter the Temple freely to TAKE/STEAL any tangible thing OUT OF it. But they benefitted freely from its USE. But never mind trying to comprehend that point. Hopefully you will see the other dangerous and underlying problems before you pay dearly down the road with this software.
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Matthew C Jones said:
Your experiment with Windows 7 gave me an idea. How about running virtual machines for the children under W7. You can still have just one machine but isolate their installations from synching by blocking that VM from internet access. Is that feasible?
Matthew, thanks for your very thoughtful suggestion! Here's the conundrum, and I'm not simply attempting to be obstreperous here:
On my current machine, I have various software installed, that allows anybody who logs onto my machine to use it with the wonderful benefit that any per-user settings are unique (and perhaps more important, isolated from trampling one another). This means that my non-administrator wife and children can use (e.g. Encarta, Britannica, Merriam Webster's Unabridged, the OED, etc.) to their hearts content without any worries or problems and it's all legal per the various vendor's EULAs. If I were to install virtual machines for each person this would introduce the following problems:
- My wife wouldn't 'get' a virtual machine, and all sorts of problems would ensue
- In order for them to use the software they currently use one of two things would need to happen
- I install all of the software they currently use into each of their VMs (I could duplicate the virtual hard drives, mess around with the computer SID, etc., but this would be a major pain!) which would mean I would now be violating the EULA of the software I am currently in accord with, or I could shell out x 1000's of dollars to repurchase all of these licenses so I could be legit. As I'm sure you're aware, the performance of VMs (especially as regards video rendering) is fairly paltry
- I just install Logos 4 in the VMs (using virtual hard drive duplication and computer SID normalization, etc.) with the result that they would be need to be operating in two different operating systems (e.g. I just came across the word 'hendiadys' today. Between the OED and the MW, I was able to get a good grasp of the meaning and etymology, that I couldn't get just from Logos 4.) I work with VMs all day long, so other than the performance impact, it would be doable, but hardly ideal, and I think this unnecessarily complicate the computing and learning experience for my wife and kids.
All of this because Logos decided to install their program files into the user's AppData folder, a practice which I have never witnessed (nor had I witnessed it when 'Documents and Settings\Application Data' ruled the roost). I'm not attempting to be unfair to the engineers at Logos, because from what I've witnessed in their software and their developer blogs, they have some very good people. However, 'getting around security' issues is not a valid reason to break such a well-established paradigm and it almost makes me wonder if they had a non-Windows archictect in charge of their installer.
Matt
Specs:
Windows 7 x64
Quad Xeon 2.83 GHz x2
16GB RAM
Nvidia 285 GTX 1GB VRAM
Logos 4.1 Platinum, SR-3, indexed0 -
Matthew C Jones said:
The original post sounds like adult children are using a duplicate installation of ONE Logos license to avoid paying for their own. This is theft. No wonder the posting parent has concerns. If my kids were willing to use stolen software they might also misuse my credit card information.
Applying this same conduct to music would be like making copies of your CD collection and giving those copies to you family and friends so they can avoid purchasing their own, the whole time retaining the original so the artist loses a sale for every copy you made. Theft again.
How did you come to the conclusin that I have adult children? Please explain your logic to us all why you would go there. For your information, I have two minor children and one that barely made adulthood. Let's not make assumptiions that may cause one to be swayed or not grasp the concern. The concern is for those with children and without, since there is also a theft issue. You should read everything carefully.
Sir, iTunes promotes HOME FILE SHARING. Have you ever heard of the gift of SHARING? Are you a captialist? Has it ever dawned on you that the Devil hates the concept of shariing with your family, because it promotes unity and eases oppression? Its called BRAINWASHING one to think Stealing and Sharing are synonymous. Most EULA are wirtten due to what others (government, persons, vendors, companies etc) that are being dealt with want. One man did not write L4, nor owns all the L4's Books. Many others holding various licenses are involved. It's like making a deal with the Devil. The Devil is greedy for money, but your focus is getting the Word of Yahweh out by any means.You are not going to hear a company publicly tell you they permit what is not in their EULA. They would lose contracts, money, and that ultimate opportunity to get their production out. It is a compromised EULA. It is not the last word. We should all know Who has the last word, so read on and understand what the Last Word is in Truth. Stand up for your true rights and children.
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Ariyl said:
You not only hastily jumped in this, but your "analogy" calls me a thief.
My analogy was directed at your argument not at you.
Ariyl said:But never mind trying to comprehend that point.
I'm trying to comprehend your arguments but they just don't make sense to me, or else they just don't apply to the subject at hand.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Larry Schmid said:
No, but the whole DRM thing is slipperier than that. I can go to a bookstore accompanied by my child, pick out and pay for a Bible and leave. When I am standing outside the store, I fully expect to be able to hand my child that Bible without the store manager coming out and accusing me of wrongdoing.
Similarly, I also have a largish print library in my house. My children have access to and the right to use any of those books. However, the concept of one-book-one license-one user cuts right across that normal practice.
I don't advocate violating the EULA, and Bob's postings on this seem to allow some freedom of conscience for occasional family use. Many things such as movies, CDs, books, etc. are legitimately bought for family use. I believe that in the long term, the push for stricter per-user licensing, even in the family setting is going to create a backlash.
The difference is you bought multiple Bibles but only one Logos license. I re-read the original post and I am disturbed by this statement:
"For example, many people have children and had no problems installing Logos 3 for them. Everything they did on that machine was their own problem so to speak. We simply installed the Key file or sent it to them and they were off to the races. "
"installed the key or SENT it to them..!!??"
Are these minor children living in a different residence? This is exactly what Bob was talking about. I have 13 kids. Five of them are adults. It would be stealing for me to claim my Logos license covers my five grown children, their spouses & babies. (We can't "get saved" for our grown children either.)
EDIT: original poster just clarified these are minor children. I recomend a ceasing of further discourse since there is a problem accurately stating our points.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
The difference is you bought multiple Bibles but only one Logos license. I re-read the original post and I am disturbed by this statement:
"For example, many people have children and had no problems installing Logos 3 for them. Everything they did on that machine was their own problem so to speak. We simply installed the Key file or sent it to them and they were off to the races. "
"installed the key or SENT it to them..!!??"
Are these minor children are living in a different residence? This is exactly what Bob was talking about. I have 13 kids. Five of them are adults. It would be stealing for me to claim my Logos license covers my five grown children, their spouses & babies. (We can't "get saved" for our grown children either.)
I fully agree. That's not what I'm talking about (and I wasn't directly addressing the original subject).
My minor children under my roof can use the books in my print library, even though I bought them. Print books by their nature generally only allow one user at a time, unless we are reading something together. Likewise with movies and CDs. Copying is not considered legitimate sharing; neither is sending someone else your licenses for their use.
If I had adult children living away from home, I would expect them to buy their own copies of CDs, movies, etc. Now, here is where it gets sticky. I could legally send one of those grown children a CD that I own, but the trend in DRM is pushing toward non-transferable per-user licenses. Admittedly, digital media makes theft of materials much easier but that is not a valid reason to undermine personal property rights of the end user.
Larry
AKA WillyBurger
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Richard DeRuiter said:Ariyl said:
EDIT: I reread your original post. You speak of 'sending' keys and such via email. If you are sending these to adult children outside your home, you are in violation of the EULA, no matter how loosely it may be construed.
Richard, just what is your point with these irrelevant assumptions? You do a lot of ASSUMING don't you? What exactly is your motive with these assumptions? Can your mind comprehend the circumstances of many people having minor children that don't live with them and thus have the need to email them info for various reasons? Can you grasp the problem of having minor children who could no longer use this software without the risks that are being spoken of here? If you can grasp how one's child cannot use this software without said risks, why in the world are you throwing these outlandish and irrelevant assumptions in here?! Because not once have you spoken up for the children in this predicament. So I now question your motives here. TRY TO FOCUS ON THAT instead of irrelevant assumptions. So your trying to tell me about an EULA because of your remark needs no reply. I'm pretty aware of what Logos any many others use as a standard EULA. But you NEED to understand this: I DON'T LIVE BY MAN'S WORDS, I LIVE BY THE WORDS OF YAHWEH That is, man's words, traditions etc don't rule my moral actions. I'm not a brainwashed slave of Rome.
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Matt said:
My wife wouldn't 'get' a virtual machine, and all sorts of problems would ensue
That reason alone is good enough to abandon this solution. [:)]
Matt said:However, 'getting around security' issues is not a valid reason to break such a well-established paradigm and it almost makes me wonder if they had a non-Windows archictect in charge of their installer.
I think it is more the newest paradigm of software engineering. The immense control the mothership gains would be scary if they were not Christians. Logos 4 will route out all the dishonest users who install one license on multiple computers. There are logs made of what ISP you log on from, what computer Media Access Code your network card has and these can be compared to find multiple users of one license. It is the wave of the future in software pirating protection.
The ONLY drawbacks I see is the damage other users can cause to the notes & account purchases. I am HOPING no pastor is keeping detailed counseling notes in the cloud. That would be a serious violation of law & confidentiality.
Here is another possible solution: If you have Version 3, install that side by side with Version 4. Allow the children to use Version 3. They will have most of the fine resources and still not be able to mess up too much.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Ariyl said:
Richard, just what is your point with these irrelevant assumptions? You do a lot of ASSUMING don't you? What exactly is your motive with these assumptions?
(They were not assumptions, you posted it)
(Irrelevant?: I believe is the fact that you are sending (which is a violation) software out of house)
(Motive: To stop)
So your trying to tell me about an EULA because of your remark needs no reply.
(Too late)
I'm pretty aware of what Logos any many others use as a standard EULA. But you NEED to understand this: I DON'T LIVE BY MAN'S WORDS, I LIVE BY THE WORDS OF YAHWEH That is, man's words, traditions etc don't rule my moral actions. I'm not a brainwashed slave of Rome.
I was going to refrain... and I'll kick myself for getting involved with this thread....
But ...I'm near speechless by the way you communicate Ariyl. And I'm not about to lecture anybody (mainly because it wouldn't help) but there are any number of verses in Scripture that you've been violating by the way you are communicating. WOW...
Logos has EVERY right to protect THEIR software from being missused/abused. If you don't like a companies policies you have the freedom to shop elsewhere or don't buy at all. When you DO purchace YOU ARE agreeing to the terms... (a few veres could be posted on that as well)
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Ariyl said:
I DON'T LIVE BY MAN'S WORDS, I LIVE BY THE WORDS OF YAHWEH That is, man's words, traditions etc don't rule my moral actions. I'm not a brainwashed slave of Rome.
I knew a fellow who swore off driver's licenses, income tax, marriage licenses and ended up helping his brother blow up the Alfred P Murrah building killing a bunch of little children in the process. I lost 8 friends in that bombing because a man threw off God-ordained government.
These babies lived next door to me:
They died here:
I am sorry your minor children don't get to live with you.. If you are not doing evil, you have nothing to fear of those who minister for God by punishing lawbreakers with the sword.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Larry Schmid said:Matthew C Jones said:
The difference is you bought multiple Bibles but only one Logos license. I re-read the original post and I am disturbed by this statement:
"For example, many people have children and had no problems installing Logos 3 for them. Everything they did on that machine was their own problem so to speak. We simply installed the Key file or sent it to them and they were off to the races. "
"installed the key or SENT it to them..!!??"
Are these minor children are living in a different residence? This is exactly what Bob was talking about. I have 13 kids. Five of them are adults. It would be stealing for me to claim my Logos license covers my five grown children, their spouses & babies. (We can't "get saved" for our grown children either.)
You are "disturbed" by the statement? By what part? By the part that you hand picked and are ASSUMING the worst of, and don't care to realize the inherent legitimate problem? Is everyone a one track minded pessimist? ITS AN EXAMPLE! Did you read or comprehend that part?
So Bob was talking about minor children that don't live with a parent? I doubt it. I think you are being deceptive with that quote. Regardless of a parent with children abroad scenario, it seems that no one can or wants to comprehend ANY legitimate scenario...so they would rather drift off into irrelevant, assumptions and make statements agaiinst it (to the detriment of children). Because here is an easy to understand scenario: Many parents have minor children at home and the children can no longer use this software, because of the inherent dangers mentioned here. But has anyone spoken up for the children here for such an obvious and real scenario? So sad, it's a SHAME. Maybe I should not have posted this and sat back with the same uncaring selfish attitude and watch everyone pay heavily down the road by losing all their life's work due to the "great Sync feature". It will indeed be hilarious if nothing is ever done about it, knowing you all had somenone informing you before hand. You can now go back to sleep, it was just a dream...
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"Save the Children!"
Kids need saving from video games more than rescue from Bible software. Youtube & facebook & MySpace are much more dangerous than BobP and the Logos family. Public school political indoctrination is more dangerous than praying & hearing the 10 commandments. Cell phones & iPods are threatening kids as we speak.
There is a spiritual war going on for the souls of our children. Few people have blessed my family like the Logos people. I think your hostilities are misplaced.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
I think it is more the newest paradigm of software engineering.
Just to clarify, if Logos had wanted to ensure only a single user on the machine could use Logos 4, they could have enabled their software to only install for a single user quite simply, and still have adhered to standard Windows installer practices. Truly, installing the program into Application Data is akin to installing the program into the System32 directory in terms of paradigms. Ultimately, based upon the fact that they are still having rights issues within AppData, I'm hopeful that they'll learn from their mistake and re-evaluate how they are installing in Windows environments. That being said, I saw in another post you made that you have 13 children! Congratulations and I hope that they are as much a blessing to you as my four are to me.
Matt
Specs:
Windows 7 x64
Quad Xeon 2.83 GHz x2
16GB RAM
Nvidia 285 GTX 1GB VRAM
Logos 4.1 Platinum, SR-3, indexed0 -
Jeremiah Daniel Morris said:Ariyl said:
Richard, just what is your point with these irrelevant assumptions? You do a lot of ASSUMING don't you? What exactly is your motive with these assumptions?
(They were not assumptions, you posted it)
(Irrelevant?: I believe is the fact that you are sending (which is a violation) software out of house)
(Motive: To stop)
So your trying to tell me about an EULA because of your remark needs no reply.
(Too late)
I'm pretty aware of what Logos any many others use as a standard EULA. But you NEED to understand this: I DON'T LIVE BY MAN'S WORDS, I LIVE BY THE WORDS OF YAHWEH That is, man's words, traditions etc don't rule my moral actions. I'm not a brainwashed slave of Rome.
I was going to refrain... and I'll kick myself for getting involved with this thread....
But ...I'm near speechless by the way you communicate Ariyl. And I'm not about to lecture anybody (mainly because it wouldn't help) but there are any number of verses in Scripture that you've been violating by the way you are communicating. WOW...
Logos has EVERY right to protect THEIR software from being missused/abused. If you don't like a companies policies you have the freedom to shop elsewhere or don't buy at all. When you DO purchace YOU ARE agreeing to the terms... (a few veres could be posted on that as well)
You are seriously disillusioned about Scripture and are living dangerous and foolishly concerning it. In fact, Scripture says your own standard of judgment could very well condemn you. So for example, If YOU come to find that the Creator does not forgive you just because you called on and believed in "Jesus" (but actually wanted obedience and exclusive worship of His actual Hebrew Name (Yahshua), then your standard of judgment will condemn you, since you "agreed" and accepted "jesus" instead as binding, although deceptive. Scripture teaches that one is not punished for being deceived, yet you have made it so you WILL get punished for being deceived. You like to uphold and be justified by deceptive words rather than truth?
But I hold no such obstinate belief. I am mindful that man makes errors and therefore cannot force my mind to believe his words are perfect and binding. Only what is TRUE is binding.
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Dan Pritchett said:
Counting the Ten Commandments -- at BibleStudyMagazine.com
Ah, come on ... only three? This is what I was ready to build into my parallels when L4 came out:
I think my research was accurate. [A]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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*kicking self [:|]
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Ariyl said:
"Jesus" (but actually wanted obedience and exclusive worship of His actual Hebrew Name (Yahshua),
Oh, and I thought this was about Logos being unfair to children........ My Jewish grandmother would say it isn't kosher to cast pearls before swine.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Jeremiah Daniel Morris said:
*kicking self
(Matthew C Jones takes off his prosthetic leg and kicks himself too.) Ouch.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Ariyl said:
But you NEED to understand this: I DON'T LIVE BY MAN'S WORDS, I LIVE BY THE WORDS OF YAHWEH That is, man's words, traditions etc don't rule my moral actions. I'm not a brainwashed slave of Rome.
This is commendable. However, it also carries the responsibility to not purchase a product for which you are unwilling to accept the conditions of that purchase. It becomes the equivalent of "stealing" just as using pirated copies of DVD, CD, books, etc. is stealing. True, you could correctly claim that there is no indication that the concept of intellectual property at the time the 10 Commandments were delivered. But then again, there is little evidence of personal property (in contrast to family property) at that time.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Ariyl said:
Sir, you sound like an Adversary to Biblical truth or one who does not have a clue about it nor lives by it. What a shame you take a standard EULA to an extreme and disrespect the fact that the Savior taught in Scripture: LET the children also come to me. Children weren't charged Tithes or Fees to enter the gates etc in order to hear and learn the Word of Yahweh. Adults were. So the children were FREE FROM / LET / ALLOWED. Yet it sounds like you would have rebelled and sat at the gates and CHARGED children against what the Savior taught, because "Rome or whatever has a "law" that says such and such". Whatever law man makes is their problem. I believe in the Laws in the Scriptures as is taught. I don't need replies from people who disrespect Scriptural Laws over man's perverted "laws" First learn to love the teaching of Scripture over man's money making ventures. There is nothing to rethink. I don't think Logos is that stupid to disrespect Scriptural truth for money.
I don't mind being called names, or responding to criticism, but it would help if I could figure out what you are trying to say. If you are trying to say I am keeping the Word from you, your family and the world by pointing out that you are breaking the law by sharing Logos, I don't think that holds much water - there is at least one free bible program available (the sword), download that and share it all you want.
You criticizing my faith or my love of my Lord or scripture because you want to justify stealing seems kind of hypocritical.
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Matt said:
All of this because Logos decided to install their program files into the user's AppData folder, a practice which I have never witnessed (nor had I witnessed it when 'Documents and Settings\Application Data' ruled the roost). I'm not attempting to be unfair to the engineers at Logos, because from what I've witnessed in their software and their developer blogs, they have some very good people. However, 'getting around security' issues is not a valid reason to break such a well-established paradigm and it almost makes me wonder if they had a non-Windows archictect in charge of their installer.
IMHO the Sync paradigm has driven this method of installation, which in turn was driven by L3 usage and Support(CS) statistics. It is quite clear that other L4 users on their computer can mess around with each other's preferences, documents and method of working. The same will happen if L4 is installed on another computer, because sync'ing is based on the single user who has the licence to the resources! And that single L3 user would go to great lengths to synchronise their various legitimate installations; some LAN based, some "cloud" based. In an attempt to perfect some of the faults of this and also to improve support costs re: missing resource (and some piracy concerns) we have this method of installation and "cloud" based resource management keeping our resources in sync with our licence and other legitimate installation.
L4 poses greater moral issues than L3 ever did in turns of keeping within the terms of the (essentially same) EULA, whilst trying to support the same examples of "fair use" that Bob has provided ie. how do I allow my children their own access to my software on MY computer. L4's method would fly in the face of a Windows architectural decision that allows multiple user accounts, where they have been been concerned with the security and integrity of their operating system in light of the same circumstances (see the progression from Windows 98 to more secure user accounts in Windows XP and beyond; even to their free, not-well-known, software that can be installed to impose greater restrictions on standard user accounts than the parent OS, especially in the case of Windows XP Home).
So yes, I am concerned, particulalrly as L4 poses particular problems for installation for users who operate a standard user account, or even a Power User account where admin privilige is required and may still be required during an update. The other problems of multiple large downloads & indexing are well documented and constitute another part of the moral burden referred to above ie. are there legitimate ways to avoid multiple downloading and indexing beyond what may/may not be provided by use of a Logos DVD? I believe that the answer is almost certainly "Yes"! And if pirates didn't find a way then users would (one can browse the Forum for unsupported methods).
So we have (complicated) ways to do what was allowed with Libronix, except for the sync'ing of user preferences and user documents. The ultimate solution for that is in the hands of Logos because there is no provision for an L4 Administrator or multiple sign-in's!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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What point don't you understand, Richard? That statement itself says you probably have not even comprehended the problems from the start. I gave an (singular) EXAMPLE of people having children (minor children) who can no longer safely allow their children to use the software anymore. Whatever is done on their install will affect your own settings. It will manipulate and/or ruin years of your own notes, settings etc. Do you understand that if you install this new software on another machine or for another User, everything that is done on that Machine/User is SYNCED with the other User? I KNOW OF NO ONE that doesn't mind having their own personal settings tampered with or ruined by what someone else does on their own account. It is a serious error in design.
If you can't comprehend that scenario, then think of your machine getting stolen. Whatever that thief does to your Logos 4 will be instantly SYNCED to their servers. So when/if you can afford to install it on a new machine, VOILA! All your years work, settings, notes, markups etc may be GONE, 'cause that thief is having fun with your Logos 4!
There are MANY scenarios, but apparently no one wants to see or think of them (reminds me of blind faith).
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Matt said:
Truly, installing the program into Application Data is akin to installing the program into the System32 directory in terms of paradigms.
I am still thinking this change has more to do with some philosophical move than technical. I have not kept up with Microsoft's developments for a few years. When the Framework and .net changes came I retired form the keep up with Johnny game. I do suspect having the Microsoft Certified Partner haunting the halls of Logos HQ could be related. [{] The MCPs do effect changes, more than we know.
If this whole new method of installing was not guided by higher advisors I am truly amazed the Logos team got it functioning as well as they did. It is a a new breed.
Matt said:13 children! Congratulations and I hope that they are as much a blessing to you as my four are to me.
(Yep, it is a privilege to raise these children.. Not easy, but a blessing.)
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Michael Birney said:
I don't mind being called names, or responding to criticism, but it would help if I could figure out what you are trying to say. If you are trying to say I am keeping the Word from you, your family and the world by pointing out that you are breaking the law by sharing Logos, I don't think that holds much water - there is at least one free bible program available (the sword), download that and share it all you want.
You criticizing my faith or my love of my Lord or scripture because you want to justify stealing seems kind of hypocritical.
From where have you deceived yourself into believing that you have ponted out that I am breaking the law by sharing Logos? Are you going to cite man's roman law to me and demand that I have faith in it? That would be foolish. You sure aren't going to cite the Truth.
Why would you try to convince me to resort to a limited freeware to educate my children, while I have Logos 4? How wicked a thought! Show yourself. I'm amused now. Oh, I see who you have love for...
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Ariyl said:
There are MANY scenarios, but apparently no one wants to see or think of them
I guess each of us has a personal responsibility to deal with the situation God has put us in. I have to provide lots of food to feed my large family. You may have to provide two insurance policies to cover your personal property.
I would not put a $10,000 diamond necklace on my 12 year old, nor a loaded shotgun in my 10 year old's hands. Not to deny them something but BECAUSE I do love them. Maybe a cheaper license of Logos would suffice. Do your minor children really need The Ugaritic Library or Baker Exegetical Commentary or HALOT/BDAG? Will your child's first car be a $40,000 SUV?
Dr. Art Robinson (Robinson's Self-Teaching Curriculum) recommends children not use computers until they are about 16 years of age. His kids have been offered full scholarships at Yale, Harvard & others following their father's advice.
Logos does not exist to meet every scenario.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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