Logos Is Too Expensive
Comments
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John Harrigan said:George Somsel said:
most public domains are scanned not created from from docs, so even adobe conversion is mediocre at best.
Perhaps. I once had PDF files for Hermann Gunkel's Schöpfung und Chaos which I was considering translating, but I soon found that the OCR software couldn't handle the fraktur type which had been used for the book so that major text-critical work would have been necessary to first get a readable German text before translating it into English. I was glad to hear of another translation of the work.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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We really aren't talking about one Christian helping another. We are
talking about a Christian business which needs to make a profit in order
to be able to continue in business and offer the products they have
chosen to produce. If they can't pay the help, the rent, the utilities,
etc. and come out with a few $$ left over they won't be around a few
years (or less) down the road.0 -
This thread has become rather long, but I'd like to say two things.
Firstly, I'd like to say that although I think Logos is expensive it's also probably a fair price. One may have to dig deep but you simply can't get a product as good as Logos anywhere else! Perhaps Logos could review their prices and see how they could make it a bit more affordable. The payment plans are a good way forward, but I would like to see the administration charge scrapped. Gift tokens would be good and last year's Christmas Credit was a brilliant idea.
Secondly, there seems in some quarters a little bit of snobbery when it comes to the lower priced packages. Yes, I am biblically trained and a serving pastor, but the Leaders Package has served me exceptionally well over the years and I have naturally added to my resources, but telling me that as a leader and academic I shouldn't have any thing less than Scholars is not only insulting but ridiculous. Naturally, one would like to have the biggest package there is, but ultimately one simply has to go with what one can afford.
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[Y]I have the OL, and it works great.Stephen Thorp said:Secondly, there seems in some quarters a little bit of snobbery when it comes to the lower priced packages. Yes, I am biblically trained and a serving pastor, but the Leaders Package has served me exceptionally well over the years and I have naturally added to my resources
I will also say that some people (like myself) do not want the "higher packages" because of theological positions that the "higher packages" contains.
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tom said:Stephen Thorp said:
Secondly, there seems in some quarters a little bit of snobbery when it comes to the lower priced packages. Yes, I am biblically trained and a serving pastor, but the Leaders Package has served me exceptionally well over the years and I have naturally added to my resources
I have the OL, and it works great.
I will also say that some people (like myself) do not want the "higher packages" because of theological positions that the "higher packages" contains.
Well that's interesting. I don't know the packages enough to discern this. Care to expand upon that thought?
“To love means loving the unlovable. To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable. Faith means believing the unbelievable. Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton
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I am currently a member of a church body which publishes quite a bit through Logos, but even so, many of our pastors (of which I am not) only go the the Original Languages level. CPH even did a bit of explaining to Logos to get the Lectionary stuff which they provided to Logos included in Original Languages, like the other Libraries because of this...
Original Languages is focused on original language tools (duh!). As George pointed out, it is unfortunately missing the key modern lexicons (BDAG and HALOT) for the biblical languages. While it doesn't have summary "Bible Background" information, it does have many key texts for this background, eg. Context of Scripture, Pseudophigrapha and Nag Hammadi - all in English. For people with the background to use them, these sources are much more valuable than, say Edersheim.
To get all these tools in another package, last I saw, you need to go Gold. Scholars itself would not be worth it to me. Silver has some things that are attractive (Early Church Fathers, K&D - heck, at one time it had the Barkleys) but have never taken the plunge.
Not all of us are American Evangelicals. LC-MS has been defining itself against them since 1847.
SDG
Ken McGuire
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
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John Harrigan said:Michael Childs said:
If the book is public domain, and there is not much tagging involved, why not just make the Logos version yourself as a personal book? Then it costs nothing. Everybody is happy.
Because they usually come in pdf, which is difficult to convert.
John, I understand the difficulties of converting pdf, but I have personally found that it can be done with a little effort. I have done it often. The problem for me has not been converting the document text itself, or even the required editing, but dealing with footnotes. I don't know if that is what you call "tagging" or not, but every footnote has to be cut and pasted individually into the Word document. That is why I have not made my own edition of several works, because it is the footnotes that are often so valuable. Now if someone ever invents a pdf converter that actually can handle footnotes - then we got it made!
In making Personal Books, I have found it great fun, but hard work. Which makes me appreciate what Logos does, and more willing to pay Logos because there is a heck of a lot more tagging involved than most people realize. But you certainly can do it yourself if you think the Logos price is too high. Unsually, the Logos price is a bargain.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Michael Childs said:
The problem for me has not been converting the document text itself, or even the required editing, but dealing with footnotes. I don't know if that is what you call "tagging" or not, but every footnote has to be cut and pasted individually into the Word document. That is why I have not made my own edition of several works, because it is the footnotes that are often so valuable
Michael,
I think some weeks ago Rosie shared a Word script with a very detailed user manual how to at least semi-automate this. I haven't tried myself, but it looked really cool. Probably in the files forum.
EDIT: it's a bit longer ago and the thread title is not very instructive, but Google was friendly: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/47783.aspx
Mick
Have joy in the Lord!
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Michael Childs said:
I don't know if that is what you call "tagging" or not
That and referencing other resources in the logos library.
Michael Childs said:Which makes me appreciate what Logos does, and more willing to pay Logos because there is a heck of a lot more tagging involved than most people realize.
Agreed. My point was just to "amen" the too expensive complaint in this thread in regard to public domain resources (logos is already in the black before it gets to pre-pub). Conversely, I agree with Jonathan Burke that modern resources still under contract with publishers are a great deal. My desire is just to see the older works a bit cheaper.
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Mr. Micawber said:
I will also say that some people (like myself) do not want the "higher packages" because of theological positions that the "higher packages" contains.
Well that's interesting. I don't know the packages enough to discern this. Care to expand upon that thought?
All I'll say to that is I'd be shocked if the answer isn't
C-A-L-V-I-N-I-S-M. I love Logos but darned if I still don't see it
slanting more and more in the direction of Reformed dogma in terms of
the percentage of material is offers. It's so plain to me it's not even
funny. But that's just my two cents. Feel free to bash - it's been
ordained so what does it matter.
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Gary Osborne said:
All I'll say to that is I'd be shocked if the answer isn't C-A-L-V-I-N-I-S-M. I love Logos but darned if I still don't see it slanting more and more in the direction of Reformed dogma in terms of the percentage of material is offers. It's so plain to me it's not even funny. But that's just my two cents. Feel free to bash - it's been ordained so what does it matter.
You mean to say that you don't like the higher packages because they contain correct doctrine? Tsk, tsk. [:D]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
You mean to say that you don't like the higher packages because they contain correct doctrine? Tsk, tsk.
[:D]
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OLL is the best. Complement it with what You really need. I've done fine without BDAG - only if a new version of it comes out and/or my senior lecturerrequires me to have it I will purchase it.
OLL is designed for both Hebrew and Gk studies. I need mostly Gk, the Hebrew is just a bonus that I have more limited use of - so among else I've hid some Hebrew resources.I'm venturing on Anabaptism and I'm somewhat close also to RCism (thank's to that I believe in purgatory in afterlife and that the bread literally turns into flesh in the Eucharist, I guess), so most of what Logos has to offer me and especially the Scholar's and higher base-packages are highly irrelevant to me.
Disclosure!
trulyergonomic.com
48G AMD octacore V9.2 Acc 120 -
Unix said:
I'm venturing on Anabaptism and I'm somewhat close also to RCism
That's a neat trick ! I'm not sure how you accomplish that.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Gary Osborne said:Mr. Micawber said:
I will also say that some people (like myself) do not want the "higher packages" because of theological positions that the "higher packages" contains.
Well that's interesting. I don't know the packages enough to discern this. Care to expand upon that thought?
All I'll say to that is I'd be shocked if the answer isn't
C-A-L-V-I-N-I-S-M. I love Logos but darned if I still don't see it
slanting more and more in the direction of Reformed dogma in terms of
the percentage of material is offers. It's so plain to me it's not even
funny. But that's just my two cents. Feel free to bash - it's been
ordained so what does it matter.Without giving my theological perspective, I don't think this is a far statement. There has been a large increase, especially in the last 18 months, of other view points. I've seen a number of Catholic resources, for example, come through CP and PP.
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Alexander Longacre said:
Without giving my theological perspective, I don't think this is a far statement. There has been a large increase, especially in the last 18 months, of other view points. I've seen a number of Catholic resources, for example, come through CP and PP.
We'll have to agree to disagree then. I think my comments were not only fair, but extremely accurate. The gap between Reformed/Baptist material vs Arminian/Wesleyan/Pentecostal material continues to widen as best I can tell. But no hard feelings to anyone, regardless of theological persuasion. I was simply commenting on what I feel like is a very clear trend. [:)]
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Gary Osborne said:Alexander Longacre said:
Without giving my theological perspective, I don't think this is a far statement. There has been a large increase, especially in the last 18 months, of other view points. I've seen a number of Catholic resources, for example, come through CP and PP.
We'll have to agree to disagree then. I think my comments were not only fair, but extremely accurate. The gap between Reformed/Baptist material vs Arminian/Wesleyan/Pentecostal material continues to widen as best I can tell. But no hard feelings to anyone, regardless of theological persuasion. I was simply commenting on what I feel like is a very clear trend.
If I may add my comment to this part of the discussion, as the "Baby" in the group. I'd like to say that I welcome the diverseness of Logos resources, as I may want or need to study different thoughts and such. I have noticed the inclusion of the many resources. Not sure of the ratios or any other such details. I would like the differing resources to be equal, however, I am unsure if that could ever be possible, considering what goes in to adding resources. Just my comment and thoughts pertaining to this. [:)]
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Gary Osborne said:Alexander Longacre said:
Without giving my theological perspective, I don't think this is a far statement. There has been a large increase, especially in the last 18 months, of other view points. I've seen a number of Catholic resources, for example, come through CP and PP.
We'll have to agree to disagree then. I think my comments were not only fair, but extremely accurate. The gap between Reformed/Baptist material vs Arminian/Wesleyan/Pentecostal material continues to widen as best I can tell. But no hard feelings to anyone, regardless of theological persuasion. I was simply commenting on what I feel like is a very clear trend.
No hard feelings Gary
For sure, the majority of the resources currently available are more Baptist in nature. (I would disagree in reformed - then again the evangelical field is so convoluted, it's hard to pick our Reformed vs. not) My point was more of what has been coming out in the last year or so. For sure, if Logos wants to put out more of a scope of resources, they would have a long way to go to catch up other theological systems. That being said, I doubt it will ever be as robust as many other users would want. Logos is evangelical in it's standings so I would expect (for good or bad) more of those types of resources. 0 -
Gary Osborne said:
All I'll say to that is I'd be shocked if the answer isn't
C-A-L-V-I-N-I-S-M. I love Logos but darned if I still don't see it
slanting more and more in the direction of Reformed dogma in terms of
the percentage of material is offers. It's so plain to me it's not even
funny.The question was about the higher packages. They are thoroughly Evangelical, but since they haven't been changed for a couple of years (other than the removal of some Baker titles), they are neither more nor less so than they were then.
As for the total list of resources, I haven't kept track of the Reformed ones, but given all the Catholic resources they've published in the last year, and given all those (mainly CP) collections from all over the spectrum, I'd be surprised if it wasn't more diverse than ever.
The blog, on the other hand, that is certainly as blatantly Reformed as ever, if not more. Just look at today's one about the "hero" Zwingli.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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fgh said:
I'd be surprised if it wasn't more diverse than ever.
I quite agree Logos is diversifying. I would even say Logos far exceeds the "competition" in diversity. I do not think it is possible to achieve "balance." Nor do I believe Logos should try.
fgh said:The blog, on the other hand, that is certainly as blatantly Reformed as ever, if not more. Just look at today's one about the "hero" Zwingli.
Whether we call ourselves "Reformed" or not we must acknowledge most of the history makers of the past held to Reformed theology and many should be considered heroes.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Super Tramp said:
Whether we call ourselves "Reformed" or not we must acknowledge most of the history makers of the past held to Reformed theology and many should be considered heroes.
I simply disagree. The reformation started just under 500 years ago. That leaves us with 1500 years of Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, etc... Therefore, most of history markers of the past did not held to reformed theology.
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tom said:
I simply disagree. The reformation started just under 500 years ago. That leaves us with 1500 years of Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, etc... Therefore, most of history markers of the past did not held to reformed theology.
On top of that, I'd suggest it's also a bit presumptuous to suggest that the last 500 years has been dominated by Reformed theology. I'm sorry, but Wesleyan/Arminian thoology has a rich and long tradition too. Add to that the Holiness/Pentecostal theology, and there's a lot more out there than just Calvinism. Hence my desire to see what I'd consider a more level playing field with the resources offered.
Having said that, I do think Logos offers a lot of diversity. That's not my point at all. I'd just like to see some more standard, classic Wesleyan/Pentecostal material than what is offered presently.
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And talking about the last 500 years, we cannot forgot how Luther started the reformation, and Lutherism too does not hold to reformed theology.Gary Osborne said:On top of that, I'd suggest it's also a bit presumptuous to suggest that the last 500 years has been dominated by Reformed theology. I'm sorry, but Wesleyan/Arminian thoology has a rich and long tradition too. Add to that the Holiness/Pentecostal theology, and there's a lot more out there than just Calvinism. Hence my desire to see what I'd consider a more level playing field with the resources offered.
Having said that, I do think Logos offers a lot of diversity. That's not my point at all. I'd just like to see some more standard, classic Wesleyan/Pentecostal material than what is offered presently.
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Gary Osborne said:
I'd just like to see some more standard, classic Wesleyan/Pentecostal material than what is offered presently.
While I'd like to see more Orthodox, Coptic, Anglican and Lutheran resources. Which is exactly the problem that Logos faces - balancing resources that will grow their market against what the current population wants. Add to that the publishers and copyright holders' interest, I don't envy Logos personnel.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Gary Osborne said:
On top of that, I'd suggest it's also a bit presumptuous to suggest that the last 500 years has been dominated by Reformed theology. I'm sorry, but Wesleyan/Arminian thoology has a rich and long tradition too. Add to that the Holiness/Pentecostal theology, and there's a lot more out there than just Calvinism.
Like Lutheranism and Anglicanism and Anabaptism...
And let's not forget that Catholics and Orthodox and Orientals are still around after the Reformation as well, in spite of both Luther, Calvin and Zwingli. [:)]
Outside of the US, Reformed are a very small group. So small that during all my years of theology they were hardly even mentioned. I just looked at my basic church history book, and it's got about 10 pages on Calvin and Zwingli (together), plus a couple on the English puritans. So I'd say that if we're talking general church history, virtually none of "the history makers of the past" held to Reformed theology.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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fgh said:Gary Osborne said:
On top of that, I'd suggest it's also a bit presumptuous to suggest that the last 500 years has been dominated by Reformed theology. I'm sorry, but Wesleyan/Arminian thoology has a rich and long tradition too. Add to that the Holiness/Pentecostal theology, and there's a lot more out there than just Calvinism.
Like Lutheranism and Anglicanism and Anabaptism...
And let's not forget that Catholics and Orthodox and Orientals are still around after the Reformation as well, in spite of both Luther, Calvin and Zwingli.
Outside of the US, Reformed are a very small group. So small that during all my years of theology they were hardly even mentioned. I just looked at my basic church history book, and it's got about 10 pages on Calvin and Zwingli (together), plus a couple on the English puritans. So I'd say that if we're talking general church history, virtually none of "the history makers of the past" held to Reformed theology.
I am jealous of being in a place where that can be the case. Over here it is quite hard to even talk about the faith without running into Reformed Assumptions or those of reactions to the Reformed, like the Wesleyan/Arminian and Holiness/Pentacostal mentioned above.
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
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Gary Osborne said:
I'm sorry, but Wesleyan/Arminian thoology has a rich and long tradition too.
No they don't have a "long" history. "Rich", yes. "Long", no. You can't argue longevity and richness as being equally interchangeable. I stand by my assertion. The Roman Catholic Popes of the last 100 years have made more history than the Popes of all 19 centuries preceding them. Most historical theologies show the beginning s of the Holiness/Pentecostal movement to be a resurgence that is less than 150 years old.
I am not going to valiantly fight this issue since I don't carry the Reformed banner. I am just trying to point out most of the Bible translating, and martyrs, and many of the founders of great institutions were of the Reformed faith. Yes, there were many Catholics in the latter group too. But criticizing Logos for "too much" Reformed theology is like telling them they are getting too historic for our tastes.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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fgh said:
Outside of the US, Reformed are a very small group. So small that during all my years of theology they were hardly even mentioned. I just looked at my basic church history book, and it's got about 10 pages on Calvin and Zwingli (together), plus a couple on the English puritans. So I'd say that if we're talking general church history, virtually none of "the history makers of the past" held to Reformed theology.
Your type of school is not unusual. Virtually all Independent Baptist schools will never study any of the Catholic Church Doctors. My Independent Christian Bible College never studied Wesley, Azusa Street, or Calvin. Most Pentecostal schools will not "waste time" studying what Presbyterians believe.......[6]
That is why we need Logos to diversify their resources. Church history is being made at a faster rate this past century than at any time since the Apostles. Local assemblies of 2000, 5000, even 10,000 are common place. Ministries reach beyond national boundaries and dwarf Spurgeon's or Moody's influence. Every year sees more Bibles printed in more languages. The Reformed faith is not dead. They are still well represented in and outside of the USA.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Super Tramp said:
That is why we need Logos to diversify their resources. Church history is being made at a faster rate this past century than at any time since the Apostles. Local assemblies of 2000, 5000, even 10,000 are common place. Ministries reach beyond national boundaries and dwarf Spurgeon's or Moody's influence. Every year sees more Bibles printed in more languages. The Reformed faith is not dead. They are still well represented in and outside of the USA.
One point that has been neglected, and even denied, is that the Anglican Church is at its foundation a reformed church although it has strayed from its roots. Read the 39 Articles found in the back of the BCP and you will see what I mean.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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