Logos Is Too Expensive
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Friedrich said:Denise said:
Gee, Dan ... er Friedrich ... you've changed!
lol, wondering when someone would notice, especially in light of the thread. thanks, I feel somehow important.
I've been wanting to change that a long time. i don't like having my name all over the internet. Friedrich was a nickname by a college buddy, playing off my middle name but Germanicizing it because I used to live there. and NOW you know. thrilling detail and technicolor.
And I was chuckling, too, because the photo kinda looks anonymousish. goofin' after a race. but few can tell because these pics are so tiny.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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I think I will morph into Juanita!
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Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Cynthia ... that's interesting about 'anonymous'. I remember the day (maybe the year) that we all were surprised Unix didn't seem to be Unix. Finally, someone got brave and asked Unix if he was Unix.
Friedrich ... lol twice. Having spent time in Germany (I guess it's popular place!), your image looked just like a set of buildings in Bavaria. Friedrich? Yes, German. Maybe someone stole Dan?!
Juanita is nice. And easy to remember too.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Military also. 'For' but not 'in'.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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We also have an individual who posts on three separate accounts. Sometimes accidentally posting from the wrong account, deleting it, then re-posting.Denise said:Cynthia ... usually 'anonymously' means your identity can't be determined. There's many Cynthia's in Florida. It's not your real name. Now, whether a person creates multiple persona is a choice anyone can make. It's a choice Logos allows. Since the first is anonymous, the second is just as anonymous. Maybe the first one is bad, and the second one nice? Or visa versa? We've had folks that use the same account but it's multiple people talking ... again anonymously. Which one are they?
Maybe what you were mentioning is 'double anonymous'?
Lately our favorite Scandinavian has only been posting on two accounts.
When I started out here I used my full/real name. But it was brought to my attention that I didn't want that kind of attention as I traveled to and from some of the countries I've traveled to and from. a post attributed to me may bar entry in some more guarded places. I changed it to this. But frankly, its not much "cover". Though I haven't traveled anyplace in a number of years that would require that level of sensitivity.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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A particular book costs $14 in the Logos store, but costs $8 in the Olive Tree Software and $8 as an ebook in Christian Book Distributors. Same ebook in all three stores, yet Logos is almost double the cost. It has definitely become a for profit business instead of a ministry.
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Agreed. That is why the only books I purchase from Logos are the ones that aren't available on Kindle or Wordsearch Bible. Nothing else compares to their core program so they have a monopoly on the market and this is what you get with a monopoly. If the prices were even close to comparable I wold purchase from Logos but such is not the case.
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James DeJong said:
A particular book costs $14 in the Logos store, but costs $8 in the Olive Tree Software and $8 as an ebook in Christian Book Distributors. Same ebook in all three stores, yet Logos is almost double the cost. It has definitely become a for profit business instead of a ministry.
Logos has never been a ministry, it's always been a business to provide tools for ministry; much in the same way Snap-on Tools provides tools for mechanics or bodymen.
DAL
Ps. I do agree that sometimes they get way out of hand with their pricing, though.
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James DeJong said:
A particular book costs $14 in the Logos store, but costs $8 in the Olive Tree Software and $8 as an ebook in Christian Book Distributors. Same ebook in all three stores, yet Logos is almost double the cost. It has definitely become a for profit business instead of a ministry.
The value of any given book in the Logos format is up to the user, but you need to know that when you purchase a book from Logos, you are doing two things: 1) Buying the book and 2) paying Logos for the value added features. When you go to a restaurant, you don't just pay for the two slices of bread, tomato, bacon, lettuce & mayo... you are paying for them to prepare it and keep the lights on.
When you buy a book from Amazon or CBD, they aren't doing much other than converting the publisher's ePub file to their own format (similar to Vyrso resources).
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alabama24 said:James DeJong said:
A particular book costs $14 in the Logos store, but costs $8 in the Olive Tree Software and $8 as an ebook in Christian Book Distributors. Same ebook in all three stores, yet Logos is almost double the cost. It has definitely become a for profit business instead of a ministry.
When you go to a restaurant, you don't just pay for the two slices of bread, tomato, bacon, lettuce & mayo... you are paying for them to prepare it and keep the lights on.
Alabama! FANTASTIC ILLUSTRATION!
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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James DeJong said:
A particular book costs $14 in the Logos store, but costs $8 in the Olive Tree Software and $8 as an ebook in Christian Book Distributors. Same ebook in all three stores, yet Logos is almost double the cost. It has definitely become a for profit business instead of a ministry.
Welcome [:D]
Faithlife corporation has two eBook stores => https://vryso.com and => https://ebook.noet.com that would have the same eBook as Olive Tree Software, Christian Book Distributers, and Amazon (as provided by publisher so quality depends on publisher).
Faithlife corporation also has two resource stores => https://www.logos.com and https://verbum.com that have digital content with additional tagging plus future maintenance. Thankful for many free Logos and Verbum resource updates, which can include typographical corrections and improved tagging. An example of additional tagging is Bible milestones, which is useful for scrolling a commentary resource with a Bible OR using a Bible reference to jump to appropriate place in commentary. Thankful for Faithlife providing free Logos and Verbum resource when an eBook is converted.
Thankful for an incredible number of free books. Logos wiki has => Free Logos Books !!
For purchasing resources, prefer buying a bundle that has a lower average cost per resource.
Profitable businesses stay in business. Profit = Revenue - Expenses. On 1 Nov 2012, Bob Pritchett (CEO) included profit margin insight => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/58026/413124.aspx#413124
Bob Pritchett said:Jacques said:He feels they should be ashamed for this kind of profit-margin, it's not reasonable.
What would a reasonable profit margin be? What profit margin does your friend think Logos has?
For what it's worth, I got our third-quarter financials earlier this week. For 2012 so far, the Logos profit margin was just about 0.38%. (Not 38%. Less than half of one percent.
Now I'm not looking for sympathy -- we're fine. It's better than that most years, and the first three quarters of this year reflect a lot of investment in Logos 5 that hadn't yet generated any revenue. (That's what we're doing now!) I expect we'll end the year with solid single-digit profitability, and we've beaten that in the past.
But the point is, we have to sell something in order to be here to serve you into the future. It's insanely expensive to develop software, especially when you have to develop the same software on Mac, Windows, Android/Kindle, iPhone/iPad, Web (and now Windows 8 RT!) simultaneously. While offering free support.
So I'll take the criticism that we're always trying to sell you more books -- it's true, and it's the only way we get paid. Though, at every upgrade cycle, it does condemn us to a lot of impassioned forum conversations about the injustice of upgrade bundles. :-)
I do welcome your input on a solution. Maybe the "free software" concept was a bad idea? Few other products I have have been offering free engine updates -- in any form -- since 1995. I've bought Word, Excel, Windows, Mac OS, etc. many times in those 17 years. Should Logos just move to paid upgrades, and stop making so many books? (It might be hard to make that change after all these years, but it's an interesting question.)
I appreciate your investing in our product, and I hope that you'll continue to believe it has been a good investment. And I want you to know that we're working hard to serve you better AND ensure that we're here for decades to come to support the investment you have made. Input on how to do that is always welcome.
(My favorite idea... just convince every Christian in America to pay $3 per month... then we could offer everybody all the content, support, and continued maintenance for a very low price! The only trick is getting everyone signed up at once...) :-)
-- BobKeep Smiling [:)]
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James DeJong said:
A particular book costs $14 in the Logos store, but costs $8 in the Olive Tree Software and $8 as an ebook in Christian Book Distributors. Same ebook in all three stores, yet Logos is almost double the cost. It has definitely become a for profit business instead of a ministry.
James
Faithlife is a business. If you look at a book and it costs more than elsewhere, so it is. I have a whole stack of titles that sit on my wishlist. Periodically they go sale and maybe I can scrape enough together to put some of them in the cart.
But here's the other thing. Lots of books are bundled together at phenomenal prices in Logos. Maybe that book is part of one of those packages. If nothing else, go ahead and put that book on your wishlist. On the month of your birthday, Logos will send you your birthday code and you can pick it up for free! Anybody else do that? Nope!
I really wanted a resource last week and I put it in the cart. The price dropped $24!. Then I put an L7 package in. That did it. It took $90 more off! The resource I wanted and thought was out of my reach was free! And the package was less too at a price no one could beat.
One more thing. When I bought my first big package, I thought this will be really nice, but it's really out of my league and on payments too. And I told a friend. He asked me how much it was and I told him. He sent me a check for the full amount.
Faithlife might not be a ministry, but if you are in ministry God will provide for you.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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Cynthia in Florida said:alabama24 said:James DeJong said:
A particular book costs $14 in the Logos store, but costs $8 in the Olive Tree Software and $8 as an ebook in Christian Book Distributors. Same ebook in all three stores, yet Logos is almost double the cost. It has definitely become a for profit business instead of a ministry.
When you go to a restaurant, you don't just pay for the two slices of bread, tomato, bacon, lettuce & mayo... you are paying for them to prepare it and keep the lights on.
Alabama! FANTASTIC ILLUSTRATION!
Actually, that's a bad illustration because you don't pay $30 bucks for a slice of pizza just because the restaurant prepared it and wants to pay the bills. In fact, I pay $5 bucks plus tax and it includes a drink too. So don't get all excited and go blind refusing to see the truth that's right in front of your face which is: FL jacks the price up TOO much on some of their resources. Sorry to burst your bubble 😜
DAL
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DAL said:Cynthia in Florida said:alabama24 said:James DeJong said:
A particular book costs $14 in the Logos store, but costs $8 in the Olive Tree Software and $8 as an ebook in Christian Book Distributors. Same ebook in all three stores, yet Logos is almost double the cost. It has definitely become a for profit business instead of a ministry.
When you go to a restaurant, you don't just pay for the two slices of bread, tomato, bacon, lettuce & mayo... you are paying for them to prepare it and keep the lights on.
Alabama! FANTASTIC ILLUSTRATION!
Actually, that's a bad illustration because you don't pay $30 bucks for a slice of pizza just because the restaurant prepared it and wants to pay the bills. In fact, I pay $5 bucks plus tax and it includes a drink too. So don't get all excited and go blind refusing to see the truth that's right in front of your face which is: FL jacks the price up TOO much on some of their resources. Sorry to burst your bubble 😜
DAL
I'm sure this has been pointed out over and over again in this long thread. First, I have been to some pizza places that charge upwards of $30 a slice for Pizza. (I only went because I wasn't paying). Second, the $5 pizza place isn't prepping a pizza that crosses over with other flavors and styles of Pizza, in case you were wondering what they were like. Logos, on the other hand, spends countless hours in each book, doing cross referencing and tagging, things that many of the competitors don't do, don't do as much of, or don't care about doing (Kindle books, for example). When I pay $14 for a book on Logos that I could have gotten for $8 on Olive Tree or $5 on Kindle, I'm not just paying for the book, I'm paying for the ability to find a passage in that book as it relates to a passage of Scripture that I am studying or doing sermon prep with. Now, don't get me wrong, I love my Kindle books and there are many books that I do buy on Kindle instead of Logos because I don't care about the tagging or cross referencing etc. And Olive Tree is a great company and product (I used it for quite a while before I purchased Logos). However, in my personal experience, Logos saved me countless hours in Seminary as well as countless hours in sermon preparation and lesson preparation, as well as preparing for family worship and blogging.
Logos isn't for everyone, and if you don't have a serious need for it, don't get it and don't gripe about the prices. Yes, while Logos likes to consider itself as a ministry, ultimately, it is a business first. They do a lot of ministry work in aiding the church, however, they are a business.
Pastor, Mt. Leonard Baptist Church, SBC
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DAL said:
Actually, that's a bad illustration because you don't pay $30 bucks for a slice of pizza
First, my illustration wasn't about pizza... [:P]
The heart of my illustration is that you are purchasing a "value added" product.
At church yesterday I discovered that a new item had been purchased (for our purposes, it doesn't matter what it was). I was aghast at the cost! I knew the materials would not add up to $400, but the item was over $4,000!
- It isn't something we could make on our own. The item it replaced was made by good hearted people but was impractical to use... so it sat unused. Plus it gave us need for chiropractic service everytime we used it.
- The item has great value to us.
- The item was niche... There isn't a market for many people to produce the item. This means that there aren't many people making the product, nor are there many people buying the product.
All of these things are true with Logos. It isn't something we can make on our own. If you don't value the Logos system, there are other options... but you DO buy it (or complain about the price) because it IS of value to you! Lastly, it is niche. Many of these books by themselves don't sell many copies, but less so in Logos.
The company that makes the product I used at church yesterday has a right to make a living. I truly was aghast at the price... but if I were to go into business making and selling this item for a living, I would be jacking up the price too! If you sell MILLIONS of something, you can afford to have slimmer margins. If you sell only ONE of a thing for your living, you have to charge more.
Lastly: My lead off statement was "The value of any given book in the Logos format is up to the user." I have hundreds of Kindle books, but thousands of Logos ones. In more recent years, the majority of my purchases have come from Vyrso, where the price more closely resembles what you would find on Kindle... in many cases the same price. When a book is available on Kindle at a massive discount, or on Logos at a considerable markup, I decide: Do I need this book in my library? I use to purchase the kindle book if the discount was great... In most cases now, the decision I make is 1) buying in Logos or 2) not buying the book. The kindle edition is good for reading straight through, but little value outside of that. I want books in my research library.
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Oh well, Alabama, I guess I was just hungry. I had some chicken wings and a slice of pizza (Peperoni and shrimp) 🍕!
Anyway, I love my Logos library, don't get me wrong, but prices have been going up too high on some resources and the final product sucks. Even FL has admitted to the "Let's release it now and fix it later," type of deals. I'm still going to invest, but if WS has it cheaper and they even throw a freebie with my purchase, why not? Butler's ABE sold by Logos has the same quality as WS and that's because they chose to do a half-hearted job on it. In fact, the tagging and format of the preacher's outline and study Bible is way better and superior in WS than the Logos version AND cheaper too! Kind of makes you wonder about this whole "so many hours of tagging" nonsense. Anyway, time for a nap before going to burn off the wings and the pizza 😁
DAL
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DAL said:Cynthia in Florida said:alabama24 said:James DeJong said:
A particular book costs $14 in the Logos store, but costs $8 in the Olive Tree Software and $8 as an ebook in Christian Book Distributors. Same ebook in all three stores, yet Logos is almost double the cost. It has definitely become a for profit business instead of a ministry.
When you go to a restaurant, you don't just pay for the two slices of bread, tomato, bacon, lettuce & mayo... you are paying for them to prepare it and keep the lights on.
Alabama! FANTASTIC ILLUSTRATION!
Actually, that's a bad illustration because you don't pay $30 bucks for a slice of pizza just because the restaurant prepared it and wants to pay the bills. In fact, I pay $5 bucks plus tax and it includes a drink too. So don't get all excited and go blind refusing to see the truth that's right in front of your face which is: FL jacks the price up TOO much on some of their resources. Sorry to burst your bubble 😜
DAL
DAL: As usual, you find a way to disagree.
First, you are entitled to your opinion.
Second, don't flatter yourself so much as to think your opinion "burst my bubble."
Third, who are you to tell me I'm blindly refusing to see the truth? What arrogance!
Fourth, my days of trying to hold a conversation with you are over, because your responses are, for the most part, irrational, inflammatory, and arrogant!
Fifth, and finally, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. So, rather than driving myself insane with trying to hold a rational conversation with an irrational person, I am choosing, for the first time on these boards, to just "shake off the dust" and ignore a poster.
Moving on...
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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alabama24 said:
you need to know that when you purchase a book from Logos, you are doing two things: 1) Buying the book and 2) paying Logos for the value added features.
Complaint: These sort of threads are sooo tiresome. The Forum needs an easily-found (i.e., not buried in a WIKI) FAQ section with concise, well written responses that will answer once and for all.
As to AL24's response, I would add a third item ... 3) continuing updates to resources. I have downloaded dozens of updates to my library just in the past couple of months - this is no small expense.
Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
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I'm not sure all the pizza arguments float, though I'm in general agreement.
1. Paying for Logos books was financing Proclaim. The theory being that Proclaim would pay out, and finance Faithlife's next idea. The books always finance Bob's dreams. As in any business.
2. If Logos offerred 2 versions of each book, and set the price of untagged versions relative to Olive Tree, I'd bet the tagged versions would die a slow horrible death, except for key types (lexicons, commentaries .. the stuff you see in pastors' offices).
3. Once you commit to a Bible software platform, you commit. Honesty with early purchasers is paramount, presuming honesty is desirable. As Matthew noted, dumping Logos is cents on the dollar. But folks try to portray Logos as quite affordable. Don't think so.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
2. If Logos offerred 2 versions of each book, and set the price of untagged versions relative to Olive Tree, I'd bet the tagged versions would die a slow horrible death, except for key types (lexicons, commentaries .. the stuff you see in pastors' offices).
Actually I have a modification of this idea floating around in my head lately. Why doesn't FL put out a basic untagged version of a book that is say, in Pre-pub without all the effort it takes to build the resource with all the bells and whistles. And then later send out an updated version with all the tags and such. The price would still be the same as we currently see. We both win - I get the resource earlier and they get me to buy the product from them if I can't wait.
I think one of my frustrations is that I see a book listed in pre-pub and it sits there for a long time once it has enough commitments. I can find the book on other platforms and it is tempting to just get it over there and ignore FL.
I know that I can grab a text document and build a Personal Book that suits my basic needs to have the text in Logos so I assume FL could do the same as they probably have the text documents available to them long before it is released to us as a finished product and could probably do a better job on the first pass.
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Denise said:
2. If Logos offerred 2 versions of each book, and set the price of untagged versions relative to Olive Tree, I'd bet the tagged versions would die a slow horrible death, except for key types (lexicons, commentaries .. the stuff you see in pastors' offices).
Hello Denise (and others in this conversation about offering tagged/untagged resources)
I have some honest questions about this though. It would STILL take man hours to tag the resources. I get that they could offer the untagged version and then the tagged version, but it takes a lot of time to tag resources, so if the the thought is that the tagged would die a slow death (which would be sad for those of us who like a tagged resourced), how would those resources that ARE tagged get financed. Further, if people don't want to pay for a tagged resource, why not just go with OT or other programs and let Logos do what Logos does best?
Thanks for your insight on this. I've always respected your view point.
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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I'm a heavily invested Logos user. When 7 came out, I wasn't very enthusiastic about it. However, on the last available day for a discount (BTW, 10% isn't much of a discount), I reluctantly took the plunge and upgraded to 7 Platinum.
However, I'm quite pleased when I look over the new resources in my library. I picked up the IVP Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture series, Hermeneia NT series, Continental OT series, and Barclay's New Daily Bible Study series. And I was pleased to find some unknown nuggets like the Lexham Geographic Commentary on the Gospels.
Bottom line: I believe I got a GOOD DEAL.
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Cynthia, anyone that buys Bibles to help others (you) far exceeds anything I might contribute.
I doubt I'm really answering your point/question since the subject isn't easy, but I'll add:
1. I rarely use the tagging, beyond basic text searches (which my other cheaper platforms also do). Effectively, each book I buy pays for your use of tagging. I'm subsidizing you and no benefit to me. Not complaining, just illustrating.
2. A tagged book doesn't just 'get tagged' once ... it has to be re-tagged over and over as Logos intros new books (that ref previous books), as well as new tagging schemes (feature sets). An untagged version (for me) has no future expense to Faithlife. I'm cheap to them.
3. Whether the publisher or software vendors, if you buy into a platform, you can't just switch as the platform becomes progressively more expensive (cost of product, cost of hardware). To switch, you must re-buy. Ergo, a new purchaser should think twice about the more expensive platforms. I don't recommend Logos to Christians for this reason.
4. The slow hideous death of tagged versions (if untagged versions were sold at Olivetree prices) is due to the curiousity of 'a good price' ... people rarely want to pay a premium unless a specific benefit ... pastors and such. The principle is similar to subscription TV (a hundred channels you don't need), and insurance (good drivers pay for bad drivers). Logos forces tagging on all, to pay for tagging for the few. I say few based on Bob's comments.
That said, people buy for total benefit ... my tagless needs are offset by the large Logos library. So, I'm happy to grumble a little.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
I rarely use the tagging, beyond basic text searches (which my other cheaper platforms also do).
I would suggest that tagging is used far more behind the scenes, than simply for manual text searches. For example:
- Link sets (such as a bible and commentary) can scroll in parallel because of tagging.
- Likewise, MultiView resources (such as parallel lexicons) can display side-by-side entries because of tagging.
- Any type of functionality that looks up information for you (such as Power Lookup or Bible Word Study) works because of tagging.
- Many of the context-sensitive options on the right-click menu (such as root or lemma) perform searches for you, and work because of tagging.
- Many of the sections in the guides are able to return results to you because of tagging. These sections are automatically searching specific resources or your entire library for you.
Perhaps you rely on tagging more than you know, and the value of tagging lets the program accomplish a great deal that wouldn't as easily or quickly be possible otherwise?
I had tried some free programs (such as WORDsearch Bible), as well as Olive Tree, but Logos blew me away with its functionality and appearance. In retrospect, Logos is expensive, as I purchased/spent far more than I initially planned, but I appreciate and value its power and sophistication to do a great deal that I'm still discovering. After spending time with Logos, I wouldn't be satisfied using a different program.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Denise: Thanks for your response. It actually does make quite a bit of sense.
I think I am understanding a bit. For your use, you really don't need the tagging. For my use, as an inductive Bible study teacher, author of in-depth Bible studies, and college student, the tagging (and re-tagging/updating), is very important to me, which is why I chose Logos over other platforms (I have tried others, but found them lacking for my use).
Now, to everyone else:
That being said, I guess I would end with my final question in my previous post. If there are other companies that offer untagged resources at better prices, and that is all that is needed by a specific user, then why not just go with that company and let Logos do what they do best? Please indulge me in an example.
I like to edit my pictures, but I'm not a professional and I don't need my pictures for any other reason than personal use. So, when I looked at purchasing a picture editing program, I chose the inexpensive Adobe Photoshop. It was a whopping 79.00 and did more than I needed, so when it came time for upgrades, I dropped it and went to the free Picasa, which does everything I need.
However, for professionals or photo enthusiasts, that's not enough, so they would most likely choose the high end Adobe Photoshop CC or Lightroom. I don't expect that because I purchased Adobe Photoshop for $79 and it had more than I needed, they should "dumb down" (sorry...I can't find another word so please known the content I mean here) its resources because I can't figure out how to use it all or don't need it all. Further, if I had chosen Adobe Photoshop CC on the front end and they kept adding new resources for that program, I wouldn't expect them to do it either. I made the choice to invest in the program and resources, and if it is more than I need, it's my decision to switch to another program that offers what I need for the price I need, or suck it up and pay the price of the program and resources I chose to begin with. I don't expect the company to offer less because I don't need it or use it or understand how to use it. Goodness...I hope I'm making sense!
To me, Logos is the Cadillac of Bible Study programs, and for a good reason. If I can only afford ,or choose, or need, a Hyundai, I shouldn't :
A. Shop at a Cadillac Auto Mall,
B. Expect Cadillac to stock Hyundai autos and complain if they choose not to.
C. Complain over the price difference between a Cadillac and a Hyundai.
Shouldn't I just go shop for a Hyundai?
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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PetahChristian said:
Perhaps you rely on tagging more than you know, and the value of tagging lets the program accomplish a great deal that wouldn't as easily or quickly be possible otherwise?
Petah, you have a bad habit of second-guessing suspiciously intelligent people. I think I'm pretty sure I use little tagging, since my Logos rarely gets used. I read.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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