When will we getting a Setting to turn off Popular Highlighting?
As long as it doesn't replace current setting options for turning on/off for individual resources, agreed. The method shown here (http://community.logos.com/forums/p/61098/433507.aspx#433507) while being a global setting can only be used if you find a resource with a popular highlight first. It's like a trojan backdoor. Not very user friendly. It should be in the main settings panel for easy user access. A community features setting section needs to be in the settings panel, straight after the internet settings, which should be second section in settings panel after selection of default layout for loading at start-up.
The method shown here (http://community.logos.com/forums/p/61098/433507.aspx#433507) while being a global setting can only be used if you find a resource with a popular highlight first.
Andrew,
I think there are differences of opinion whether the "kill switch" for popular highlights should be in the VF menu or in the settings menu. However, in both cases the default would need to be "On" for users to become aware of the feature. So, when would someone be wishing to turn it to "Off"? Only after they have seen the highlights in a resource and decided to (at least temporarily) not like them. Thus they are currently looking at the highlights and it's not an issue to search for and open a resource just for the purpose of turning Popular Highlights off - if there is no such highlight in the resources a user has open, turning the switch will change nothing for his/her Logos usage experience!
The best way I'd envision this to be made better is to leave the settings as they are, take away the obtrusive [xx highlights] stuff and instead have a mouse-over popup which might say "xx user highlights - tell me more" with the last being a link to a help site which explains the feature and how to turn it on/off. Maybe the reason we dont have it is that every word of the text already has such functionality. Then Logos should have a small icon (maybe the # of highlights if it must be, but I don't want to know the number) as a kind of footnote marker which brings up the popup as I proposed. Putting a new settings option probably wouldn't help much without the users seeing what they are doing.
Mick
Thus they are currently looking at the highlights and it's not an issue to search for and open a resource just for the purpose of turning Popular Highlights off -
That's precisely the issue (and not just myself). When users become aware of this feature and want to switch it off they currently have to search for a resource! Further, by making it an Internet option (as per Community Tags & Rating) it is possible not to even receive these Highlights.
As a little reminder, 5.0a beta testers became the first users to be aware of Popular Highlighting when it was shown to be the cause of crashes in certain resources.
Thus they are currently looking at the highlights and it's not an issue to search for and open a resource just for the purpose of turning Popular Highlights off - That's precisely the issue (and not just myself). When users become aware of this feature and want to switch it off they currently have to search for a resource! Further, by making it an Internet option (as per Community Tags & Rating) it is possible not to even receive these Highlights.
Dave,
I think there are two possible scenarios where a user becomes aware of the feature and wants to turn it off:
I happen to believe that scenario 2 is much more likely than scenario 1. I'm not even sure Logos needs to cater for scenario 1 as the user is already aware of how the feature works, where to go to turn it off and whom to ask for more information or a step-by-step explanation with screenshots. And, to be honest, I think there are more pressing priorities on Logos development lists than making sure that someone who hasn't seen a feature in any of his/her resources (and maybe never will, especially when internet is turned off) can ensure that it won't bother them in the future at any time. I predict we will have threads where people ask about cool automated highlights they've seen in a resource at other users' screens and why they paid the same amount for it and don't get these as well.
Also, I think scenario 2 will hit many many users who are not forum regulars. We must have at least half a dozen threads the last week with someone asking "what's this highlight I didn't make and how to remove it?" So my proposed solution would be:
I can live with the global default switch in VF or in the settings, that's not an issue once one knows where to look for it. But the priority should be on solving the scenario 2 problem, since it creates unnecessary frustration with Logos.
Then the user really needs to look for a resource with Popular Highlights - which shouldn't be too complicated in this situation,
I really don't see this as not being complicated. A user who doesn't want this feature (which happens to not be me, but I'm standing in the gap for such a user), shouldn't have to go and find a resource with a popular highlight in order to turn off the feature. That is only going to cause an increase in support calls to Logos because it's not an obvious way to handle such a setting or place to look for it. There needs to be consistency in the software and the logical place users are going to look for global settings is the program settings panel. I would not look in the Visual Filters Menu to find a global setting, am only aware of it because someone pointed it out, and I am fairly literate when it comes to computers. I am not suggesting the current options be removed only they be enhance with what is really much simpler and much more logical IMHO.
The user sees the highlights in a resource and it disturbs him/her. Then there's no need to search for the resource. Wanting to turn it off, some may think of the VF - after all, Community Notes and shared notes work via VF as well - or may think of the global settings, this could be a 50:50 call. Many may think of the wrong place (or neither) and become frustrated with it.
This is is in contradiction to you earlier saying it is not that complicated with the present control options. I would think VF menu is for turning of occurrences in that resource currently open, not in all resources. To me to place the global setting here is silly and if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes I would have thought they were joking if they simply told me Logos put the setting here - I am still dumbfounded as to why you would put a global setting in a menu that is tied to a specific instance of a resource. [*-)] If I think about it anymore you might have to scrape me off the floor.
Edit: Please someone pinch me, did they really put a global setting in an menu that relates to an individual instance of a resource ????
The user sees the highlights in a resource and it disturbs him/her. Then there's no need to search for the resource. Wanting to turn it off, some may think of the VF - after all, Community Notes and shared notes work via VF as well - or may think of the global settings, this could be a 50:50 call. Many may think of the wrong place (or neither) and become frustrated with it. This is is in contradiction to you earlier saying it is not that complicated with the present control options.
This is is in contradiction to you earlier saying it is not that complicated with the present control options.
maybe I made myself not clear enough that I was discussing the two different scenarios when a user might want to switch off the Popular Highlights. The scenario 1 (we may call it the "hearsay" scenario) is not complicated because the user is right here in the forum, probably just reading one of the numerous threads with detailed explanations, screenshots and names of resources plus - at any time of the day - someone to help him along as needed.
The (imho much more relevant) scenario 2 - "look, see and search" scenario may happen offline, or for someone who doesn't know about the forums. Even if, there's the problem to find the right thread when you don't know what the thing you see is called. I suspect that only a small fraction of users will go on and create a new thread - the others just put up with the situation. The number of threads we see nevertheless is just the tip of the iceberg and shows that this feature needs more explanation in itself. I don't recall any of these users writing "I looked for a new global setting in the menu but couldn't find one" (but I may have overlooked this), it's rather that they don't understand the feature in the firstplace, so this is my priority. The moment the user is at the point where he receives an instruction to achieve his turn-it-off intention with three clicks, it's more or less meaningless where to do them.
Edit: Please someone pinch me, did they really put a global setting in an menu that relates to an individual instance of a resource
That's nothing unique for the Popular Highlights, as other VF-driven features (VFDF) work the same. And - judging from user comments - it makes sense: The user interacts with one VFDF and wants to turn it on/off for a specific resource. Seeing the result of their action, they contemplate about turning the VFDF on/off globally: and they're right here, just a click away. So this design may not be intuitive for IT persons like us, who tend to look for a settings menu, but it may be more intuitive for the non-IT savy users this application is written for.
I am not suggesting the current options be removed only they be enhance with what is really much simpler and much more logical IMHO.
That's something I did not argue against. Maybe in future releases Logos should have something like real global Settings (which are fix for the program) and another menu of Global Defaults which could have the default on/off switches for VFDF (Community Notes, Popular Highlights and maybe all VF) and other things such as size percentage and the various fonts, library sort order (dreaming here) etc. which should have a default but could be overridden (or should be)
So this design may not be intuitive for IT persons like us, who tend to look for a settings menu, but it may be more intuitive for the non-IT savy users this application is written for
+1
So this design may not be intuitive for IT persons like us, who tend to look for a settings menu, but it may be more intuitive for the non-IT savy users this application is written for +1
Nope don't see who this is more intuitive for anyone to look for a global setting buried in a menu for an individual instance of a resource any only accessible if you right click on a list of dynamic options that is of variable length that is dependent upon user generated content - definitely nothing IT savy about expecting to find a setting in a settings menu to turn off a global feature to me.
It's more intuitive because ALL visual filters are found there. [;)]
Andrew, maybe I made myself not clear enough that I was discussing the two different scenarios when a user might want to switch off the Popular Highlights. The scenario 1 (we may call it the "hearsay" scenario) is not complicated because the user is right here in the forum, probably just reading one of the numerous threads with detailed explanations, screenshots and names of resources plus - at any time of the day - someone to help him along as needed.
Mick I totally got you were talking about two different scenarios but software design should not be based on the scenario that someone might happen to be reading a forum. That to me is just poor design that is waiting for an increase in user support calls to happen - no offense meant to you Mick - I just don't see it as valid to talk about making design choices based upon this criteria - leave the choice there for those who happen to stumble by it on chance but it has to be in the global settings panel it is a global setting. The way it is now it makes the software look ill conceived and poorly thought out - "hey guys where are we going to put this - ok here will do
Edit: Please someone pinch me, did they really put a global setting in an menu that relates to an individual instance of a resource So this design may not be intuitive for IT persons like us, who tend to look for a settings menu, but it may be more intuitive for the non-IT savy users this application is written for. That's nothing unique for the Popular Highlights, as other VF-driven features (VFDF) work the same.
So this design may not be intuitive for IT persons like us, who tend to look for a settings menu, but it may be more intuitive for the non-IT savy users this application is written for.
That's nothing unique for the Popular Highlights, as other VF-driven features (VFDF) work the same.
Yes it is unique to turn off a global setting from a buried right click in a dynamically generated menu that indeterminate length based upon both the local user and cloud users. I am not turning off individual cases. For individual cases it makes perfect sense, for a global case it makes absolutely no sense and has already cause confusion in other threads where people have asked how to turn if off globally, there were told, even given a screen shot, and replied no I want to turn it off globally, not for an individual instance.
Mick please don't take my passion on this one personal but this in not in place to put a global setting for anyone, least of all someone who has not IT savy. The standard place in a windows application at least to find a global setting is EDIT->PREFERENCES. Given Logos has changed that standard menu structure, it is still much more intuitive to find a global setting in the settings menu/panel not buried in a right click of a dynamically generated menu of an individual instance of an object.
There has already been a case where a user who asked where to turn this off globally was given a screen shot, was told how it worked and responsed, no I don't want to turn off an individual case but turn it off globally - repeat this does not make sense to have this as the primary place to put the global setting.
God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen (Please note where the comma is for this ancient Christmas greeting! *smile*) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_rest_you_merry,_gentlemen
Anyway, am just calling attention to Morris Proctor's regular Monday "helps and hints" blog which came today, it being Monday! *smile*
.... entitled "Logos 5: Popular Highlights" Obviously Logos might be becoming more concerned about this and the "maintenance" consequences.
http://blog.logos.com/
It's more intuitive because ALL visual filters are found there.
For turning off in individual resources yes, globally - absolutely not intuitive as this thread proves. A global setting should be in the settings menu. Dave started this forum thread asking for that to be implemented. I am only standing in the gap for those in the future might want to turn this off globally. I love popular highlights and have not desire to turn them off so have no vested interest in the topic but this is just poor design to place the global setting where it has been placed. Even Dave is asking for one, when there is actually one buried in a totally in appropriate place.
Guys as you are making it clear that MVP's rule the roost around here. Please let me know if you want me to continue giving feedback on the beta, and Logos in general or not. You are giving the impression I don't have a right to give my opininon unless it is in line with yours, if this is the case I will cease contibuting as I really don't want to participate where I am not wanted. It will make life a lot less simpler for me and more pleasant for us all.
My only interest in this thread has been to point out how the curren setup violates everything Bob said from the start of private beta testing for Logos 4 - that their aim is to reduce support calls by making things simpler. IHMO this does not make things simpler and only complicates potential support calls and this can be overcome by having a global setting where a global setting should be, individual settings exactly where the should be, all of this of course is my opinon.
If you don't value my opionion or dont want opinions that challenge what Logos with the purpose of making it even better please let me know and I'll not offer any more.
Guys as you are making it clear that MVP's rule the roost around here. (...) You are giving the impression I don't have a right to give my opininon unless it is in line with yours
Andrew, it seems you got something "into the wrong throat" as we say in my part of the woods - if anything I wrote gave you this impression, I apologize. It was never meant anywhere near to this. I like reading your contributions.
My impression was that we discuss potential improvements, and it is beneficial to hear voices coming from many angles and points of view.
Actually, I think, I as a youngster (MVP for about a month) and non-professional user of Logos speak up UI design questions against five-digit-poster and MVP Emeritus Dave, so I'm in hotter waters than you!
Please continue to offer your observations and opinions.
Guys as you are making it clear that MVP's rule the roost around here.
We do? That should not be. Bob has repeatedly indicated that he prefers a democracy.
Please let me know if you want me to continue giving feedback on the beta, and Logos in general or not.
I, for one, agree with your assessment of the proper place for global settings. The present arrangement is not optimum.
I will cease contibuting
Please don't. I really value your opinion and appreciate your contributions to these forums.
Logos—and we—need contrary opinions that are offered in the proper spirit, as your invariably are.
Guys as you are making it clear that MVP's rule the roost around here. We do? That should not be. Bob has repeatedly indicated that he prefers a democracy. Please let me know if you want me to continue giving feedback on the beta, and Logos in general or not. I, for one, agree with your assessment of the proper place for global settings. The present arrangement is not optimum. I will cease contibuting Please don't. I really value your opinion and appreciate your contributions to these forums. If you don't value my opionion or dont want opinions that challenge what Logos with the purpose of making it even better please let me know and I'll not offer any more. Logos—and we—need contrary opinions that are offered in the proper spirit, as your invariably are.
Finally, Andrew, Peace to you! We've been "chatting" for years, including the Old Logos Newsgroups! I don't really use Facebook; however, you were the first person I ever had on my Facebook! *smile* I'm sorry you feel the wayyou do.... ... . But, you're in error about MVPs wanting to rule the roost.
I agree with Jack ............. I also value your opinion and appreciate your contributions to these forums ....
Also, as a brand new MVP (asked by Logos to serve as MVP the same time as Mick was) ... I agree with Mick .. who wrote: "
Andrew Mckenzie:Guys as you are making it clear that MVP's rule the roost around here. (...) You are giving the impression I don't have a right to give my opininon unless it is in line with yours
Please continue to offer your observations and opinions."
Andrew, I did post in this thread; and I'm sorry if anything I said offended you in any way! *smile* Peace!
Maybe I'm having a bad day. I never suggested removing anything put placing an option where it is going to be most simplest to direct a user who is being provided support
And, to be honest, I think there are more pressing priorities on Logos development lists than making sure that someone who hasn't seen a feature in any of his/her resources (and maybe never will, especially when internet is turned off) can ensure that it won't bother them in the future at any time.
How often do you turn your internet off?
Let me present the scenario from which beta testers first became aware of Popular Highlights. The crash log states "PopularHighlightVisualFilter" but I was a little cautious about the "PopularHighlight" bit. It was possible to restart and turn off the VF, but what if it wasn't?
Logos have had two options to Show (resource) Bookmarks from the beginning of Logos 4. "Ummm - what do they do?" Then the converse "How do I get rid of those funny marks in the margin of my resources?". Bob was enthusiastic about those marks so the testers knew what they were and I turned them OFF fairly quickly, because they put the option in Settings.
If we had settings for Community Notes** and Popular Highlights when they were introduced I could more readily have dealt with them, but they both have a "per resource" option for turning OFF, and I had to ask Bradley how to get out of receiving community notes seeing that by default I already had a Faithlife subscription.
In this beta we see that "Show Home Page at startup" has migrated to Program Settings. Why? Apart from the fact that it was always a "layout" you simply couldn't load the Home Page to change the option when it kept crashing! Now you can start with a blank layout, access Program Settings and choose another layout until the home page issue is fixed.
** I also need a setting for Community Notes.
In terms of "pressing priorities" for Logos it is debatable whether making them less annoying or more self-explanatory would trump a need to not show them at all. For those that want the Highlights there is a separate case to be made.
Dave, thank you very kindly! Great explanation! I like the popular highlights: however, being a fairly experienced Logos user, I know my options. The question is, I guess, what about "the newbie" or the user who is far less than a "power user"! Thanks for speaking to some of these issues!
Apologies to MVP'sfor my unfair comment about you yesterday. It was not warranted. I do value all of your contributions, even if I strongly disagree on this thread. My comment was the wrong way to express it.
Apologies to MVP'sfor my unfair comment about you yesterday.
Thought I had received a revelation of my unknown superpower status' now I am crushed to learn that I am just an ordinary human after all [:D]
even if I strongly disagree on this thread.
But I agreed with you [:S]
My comment was the wrong way to express it.
We all have those "Why did I do that?" moments—Philippians 3:13-14.
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The question is, I guess, what about "the newbie" or the user who is far less than a "power user"!
Whilst not from a "newbie" this thread illustrates the confusion that surrounds switching OFF Popular Highlighting --> http://community.logos.com/forums/p/63242/445231.aspx#445231
I would think VF menu is for turning of occurrences in that resource currently open, not in all resources.
While it is not how I would have designed it, this is where Visual Filters were turned off universally in L4. Remember that when you create a visually filter it shows everywhere it can by default - and you go to a resource to shut it off. My preference:
What do I mean by "band-width saver"? I mean that I think Logos needs to view their non-mobile products from the perspective of a user with limited band-width who needs to minimize data transfer. I while the major data transfers are unavoidable, the user goodwill generated by Logos clearly considering their needs would be significant. Items that have little or no effect on the features of Logos could be removed from the sync process and labelled clearly as "this computer only - nonrecoverable" or, as in the case of community notes labelled as "unavailable in bandwidth saver mode". Items that might be candidates:
True it doesn't save much traffic but it's the thought that counts - and it sets the model for future community features.
For turning off in individual resources yes, globally - absolutely not intuitive as this thread proves
Andrew, Andrew, I'm sorry but ...
Given the 3/4 million users of Logos and the finger-countable number of threads, all it proves is that there exist people for whom it is not intuitive.
Which is exactly my point so give up on trying to discredit me because I might disagree with some MVP's. You are playing a tired old broken record which you like to hide behind. Still trying to figure out you point. Speak to Dave with the same lack of disrespect because he does think its a great place for it either. You have your opinion respect mine please
You are playing a tired old broken record which you like to hide behind.
Unfortunately, demanding reasonably viable analysis does become a "tired old broken record" - however, the motive is to get people to present viable options in a manner that will get both their idea and themselves taken seriously. I'm sure you noticed in the post prior to the one you responded to I basically agreed with you after stating what I presumed to be the Logos' logic behind the current implementation.
You have your opinion respect mine please
I respect your opinion. I thought you knew my style well enough to recognize I'd find you final way you supported your case humorously illogical. I apologize for my error in judgment.
The question is, I guess, what about "the newbie" or the user who is far less than a "power user"! Whilst not from a "newbie" this thread illustrates the confusion that surrounds switching OFF Popular Highlighting --> http://community.logos.com/forums/p/63242/445231.aspx#445231
Here's another reason to centralise internet features when they can impact performance --> http://community.logos.com/forums/p/63466/446609.aspx#446609
Peace, Dave! and a truly Blessed New Year for you and your family! *smile*
I do concur with your judgement!
take away the obtrusive [xx highlights] stuff and instead have a mouse-over popup which might say "xx user highlights
I like this idea. The statistical information is there if I want to know, but it does not interrupt reading.
It would be even more useful if the pop-up indicated a relative percentage or something like: "highlighted by 150 of 200 readers"
And I don't want any "popular hilites" give me the kill switch- put it in settings to shut this feature down- its an annoyance factor- and I despise having to turn it off in every resource I open. This was a ridiculous idea to implement in this fashion.
Sorry for the attitude- but tired of this feature.
I despise having to turn it off in every resource I open.
Did you try THIS: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/61098/433507.aspx#433507
I despise having to turn it off in every resource I open. This was a ridiculous idea to implement in this fashion.
Did you see my response to your other post on this subject? 450225.aspx
