L4 and Precept (Inductive) Bible Studies.
Comments
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Sharon said:
Sorry Precept 101 (my version) got so long!
Thanks for the informative description. Again, it makes me realize how different my experience is. For many years, our archiocese offered a three year program for leaders of small Bible study groups. One was taught to work without any guides besides a study Bible and, perhaps, a Bible dictionary. Certainly there are Bible study programs that are available, especially several written by recent converts, but they tend to be introductory programs for a year or less. Since I have a specific interest in Bible Study methods, I'd run into the Precept method several times but never quite grasped how the pieces fit together. Thanks for taking the time to answer.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Sharon said:
One of the things that has changed is that the discipline expected, the commitment required, and the work itself has been diluted. Unfortunately, and I think at least partially due to the popularity of these shorter and
"easier" courses themselves, the ministry does not seem to be heading back to their original standards.Hi Sharon,
I know you said you are busy, so I don't know if you will be able to answer...but I've recently discovered Precept Ministries and absolutely love what I've learned so far about inductive study. With that said though, I've heard from a couple people now that their methods have become diluted and more "lazy friendly" for lack of a better way to put it. Do you know where I can get a hold of materials that teach the original intensive method? A source for some of the original PUP guides would be great too.
Thanks!
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I personally believe it depends on the study... My main objection has been you can tell where material has just been added in or moved so that the work load is not ballanced from one day to the next. (Yes sometimes the questions are leading, but overall I approve of PUP.)
Based on my experience, the PUPs that are based on entire books of the Bible are still using the old methods. The Topical studies, not so much.
There is also a new set of study guides called something like "The 15 minute Inductive Study". This is very much a lite version.
I think there is a effort to make the studies more friendly to non/new believers. (I think they should be targeted to mature believers myself.)
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John Norman said:
Based on my experience, the PUPs that are based on entire books of the Bible are still using the old methods. The Topical studies, not so much.
That's good to know, thanks John. My wife and I have been introducing ourselves to the method via the "Teach me to study the Bible in 28 days" book. We planned on going into the more in-depth studies after that, but it looks like we ordered the wrong book. We ordered one of the ones from the "New Inductive Study Series" which is apparently the series that is halfway between the "In & Out" and the PUP series in terms of depth. I guess we will start with that one, then order one of the PUP workbooks next.
Thanks again for the info!
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Don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but there is an inductive bible studies guide for Logos 3. I purchased the manual and found it pretty adaptable to Logos 4. I have included a link to the resource.
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[:)]Ronald S Keyston Jr said:I know you said you are busy, so I don't know if you will be able to answer...but I've recently discovered Precept Ministries and absolutely love what I've learned so far about inductive study.
Hi Ronald,
It blesses me more than you know whenever I hear a man get excited about studying the Bible inductively! We need more men who are committed to hearing the Lord's words directly from Him through His Word by His Holy Spirit. True expository preaching of the Word is lacking - and that is because true inductive study is lacking. You simply cannot expositorally preach God's Word until you have studied it inductively! (Excuse me while I step down from my soapbox.)
Yes, I am busy, but I can pop in and out and answer the easier questions as I can. I don't mind being busy - I love serving my Master. He's coming soon, you know!!! And I want to be found faithful and about His business!
Ronald S Keyston Jr said:Do you know where I can get a hold of materials that teach the original intensive method? A source for some of the original PUP guides would be great too.
I wish I did, but other than asking on ebay or Craig's list - and hoping someone from the early years has some extra - I can't think of any place. But the good news is that if you take all the training you can from them, you will learn the method. The training, also less stringent than formerly, still is right on target. Going to Chattanooga and taking one of their two week courses (on a particular book or subject) will bless you. (usually twice a year) Or taking any of the weekend workshops around the country or at Chattanooga will all be useful, very useful. It's not that they have altered the method, just lessened it.
And as you learn the method, you will be able to use it to study any of God's books as thoroughly as you want! They are giving you a shovel and teaching you how to dig deeper (how to hold the shovel, how to use the shovel, where to dig, when to dig, what to look for when you dig, etc.), but you can dig for as long as you want and as deep as you want once you have your own shovel and are trained how to use it. Make sense?
I will think a little on where to get ahold of some of the stuff. I used to have all the old materials, but I have given so much of it away, and of course, lots of it is written in. It is possible, though, that I have some extras (don't know for sure because 15-20 years is a looooong time ago - especially for an ooooooold lady!), however, I will go through them. If I find any, I will be happy to mail them to you! I will be so blessed if I find any to send you! We'll stay in touch, okay?
Oh, and here is quick list of books that help with the method: (some are on Logos)
- Understanding and Applying The Bible - Robertson McQuilkin (this one's good)
- How to Read The Bible For All Its Worth - Fee & Stuart
- How to Read a Book - Mortimer Adler & Charles Van Doren (Mortimer - didn't know anyone actually had that name!)[;)]
- Independent Bible Study - Irving Jensen
- Traicha - can't remember the name of the book or his name right now... (I will - give me some time....[*-)]
- There is also someone else I just discovered - and I have it in my Logos library - and I think it looked good - can't remember....ooooh! I'll find it and get back with you
Sorry this is all jumbled - but I wanted to respond asap - God says in Ephesians we are to redeem the time - buy every moment back, don't let Satan benefit by it and don't let it go to waste) and give it to God! And I don't want you to lose ONE MOMENT! It's not common to find a man with your heart and humility! I want to do all I can to help!
About my Father's business...
Sharon
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Sharon said:
Traicha - can't remember the name of the book or his name right now...
Would that be Robert Traina - Methodical Bible Study?
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John Norman said:
Based on my experience, the PUPs that are based on entire books of the Bible are still using the old methods.
Yes, they are still using the old method, it is, as I said to Ronald, not altered, just lessened.
John Norman said:There is also a new set of study guides called something like "The 15 minute Inductive Study". This is very much a lite version.
They are 45 minutes, and yes, very lite, and less than inductive.
John Norman said:I think there is a effort to make the studies more friendly to non/new believers. (I think they should be targeted to mature believers myself.)
I agree.
John Norman said:(Yes sometimes the questions are leading, but overall I approve of PUP.)
I agree here, too. I know that Kay has, far more than ANYONE I have ever known, kept her own beliefs to herself as much as possible and tried hard NOT to lead the students in the workbooks. I write Observation Bible Study guides, and I know how hard that is to do.
Here's a couple of examples. When I first started Precept 20 years ago, I bought the Spiritual Gifts workbook to find out what she taught out of fleshly curiosity (not a good thing, mind you!). I read the whole workbook stem to stern and could not discern where she stood on the entire issue! That's commendable! The only way to find out was to do the study itself - by going to the WORD!
Second example, about 15 years ago I taught Revelation for the first time - a two year course at the time, and four workbooks. The first workbook took you through the "scenes" of Revelation, asking you to observe what the text said, and asking you to draw each scene out (like stick people drawings). This enabled the student to "see" what the text was saying - NO interpreting, just observing. Lots and lots of students grumbled and whined saying they couldn't draw (well, who can?) and saying they didn't think it would help. But, as teacher, I made them do it.
The class grew and grew until I was teaching many times during the week just to accomodate all the students. And probably 99% of those students would ask me, so what does Precept say about the rapture? And each time I would patiently answer that we were to study what the TEXT said. Then I would tell them to get back to drawing!!! [8-|] At the time, I had never studied Revelation to teach it before, and the truth was, although many of the students probably thought I had a belief about the rapture, none of them realized just how unsure I was about its timing. And Kay did not give anything away, even to the leaders! For two long years we studied and studied - and it wasn't until the end that Kay addressed the subject, but by then, the students had a good grasp on the book of Revelation itself, and with future events as taught in the rest of the Bible. That's pretty good evidence that she really tries to not lead students to her beliefs, but rather she leads them to the Word of God.
Gotta go!
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Gary O'Neal said:Sharon said:
Traicha - can't remember the name of the book or his name right now...
Would that be Robert Traina - Methodical Bible Study?
Yes! Yes! Thanks, Gary! I blow more fuses that I used to!
What about the other one I can't remember. It was mentioned in a thread a couple of months ago. I didn't know I had it in my library. I think his first name might have been Bob??? (Watch, his name will probably be Mortimer!)[:P] I read through quite a bit of his materials and was pretty pleased. He also has videos online...and I think he is retired. Does that ring a bell?
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Ronald S Keyston Jr said:
We planned on going into the more in-depth studies after that, but it looks like we ordered the wrong book. We ordered one of the ones from the "New Inductive Study Series" which is apparently the series that is halfway between the "In & Out" and the PUP series in terms of depth. I guess we will start with that one, then order one of the PUP workbooks next.
I think you might find, for the most part, that the IISS are even more "lazy friendly" (to use your phrase) [;)] than IO. In other words, you can pretty much read them without doing the study and figure out what their take is.
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Sharon said:
What about the other one I can't remember. It was mentioned in a thread a couple of months ago. I didn't know I had it in my library. I think his first name might have been Bob??? (Watch, his name will probably be Mortimer!)
I read through quite a bit of his materials and was pretty pleased. He also has videos online...and I think he is retired. Does that ring a bell?No. I'm not familiar with this one. The only I've heard of in Logos that also has some videos online would be Morris Proctor, but I'm not familiar with his material.
I wonder if you might be thinking of Howard Hendricks Living by the Book. He has some videos here - http://www.dts.edu/about/faculty/hhendricks/ (click on the media option under his name).
Also, I'm glad to see you recommending Adler's How to Read a Book. Even though it isn't a book about studying the Bible (or even a Christian book) it is one of the best books to teach you to really read that I'm aware of.
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No I think she is talking about Bob Utley, from Texas!
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Jerry Walker said:
No I think she is talking about Bob Utley, from Texas!
Yay! Jerry!
Wow, I am going to give myself a couple of points for at least remembering that his name was Bob!
Jerry, have you used any of his materials? What do you think of them?
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Gary O'Neal said:Sharon said:
What about the other one I can't remember. It was mentioned in a thread a couple of months ago. I didn't know I had it in my library. I think his first name might have been Bob??? (Watch, his name will probably be Mortimer!)
I read through quite a bit of his materials and was pretty pleased. He also has videos online...and I think he is retired. Does that ring a bell?No. I'm not familiar with this one. The only I've heard of in Logos that also has some videos online would be Morris Proctor, but I'm not familiar with his material.
I wonder if you might be thinking of Howard Hendricks Living by the Book. He has some videos here - http://www.dts.edu/about/faculty/hhendricks/ (click on the media option under his name).
Also, I'm glad to see you recommending Adler's How to Read a Book. Even though it isn't a book about studying the Bible (or even a Christian book) it is one of the best books to teach you to really read that I'm aware of.
Yes, Adler's book is good - kinda like "Reading 101". And basically, reading is observing. Observation is the second step in any Bible study, the first being to pray, making sure you are right with God, and asking the Holy Spirit to lead you and guide you into all Truth.
Hendricks also has a book called "Teaching to Change Lives". It's a quick read, simple, but practical.
And Jerry remembered my 'Mortimer mystery man' was Bob Utely - if you get a chance you might want to look over his materials. I found his method to be absolutely solidly right on.
Thanks for trying to help me remember!
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Sharon said:
Hi Ronald,
It blesses me more than you know whenever I hear a man get excited about studying the Bible inductively! We need more men who are committed to hearing the Lord's words directly from Him through His Word by His Holy Spirit. True expository preaching of the Word is lacking - and that is because true inductive study is lacking. You simply cannot expositorally preach God's Word until you have studied it inductively! (Excuse me while I step down from my soapbox.)
Yes, I am busy, but I can pop in and out and answer the easier questions as I can. I don't mind being busy - I love serving my Master. He's coming soon, you know!!! And I want to be found faithful and about His business!
Hi Sharon,
Thank you so much for your prompt reply, all the information, and for your kind words...much appreciated! I agree with you whole-heartedly regarding the lack of true expository preaching. It is a battle that I'm currently involved in at our church, trying to get some in-depth teaching and preaching from the pulpit and the classes/small groups offered. Anyway, if you stumble across any materials, please do let me know!
Thanks again!!
Ron
EDIT: BTW, if you wouldn't mind sending me a quick e-mail at ron [dot] keyston [at] evrazincna [dot] com when you get a chance, I wanted to tell you how my wife and I came across these materials. It was definitely a really neat "God thing" the way it all worked out. I don't want to derail the thread though.
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Hi all,
I am enjoying all the discussion on the Inductive Bible study methodology and I remember Kay Arthur's 4 tape teaching on Song of Solomon that changed my life or rocked my little (then-1977) world. Life changing and I don't know if it was an inductive study but she had an encounter with God and He opened up Song of Solomon to her. What I am wondering is how do the concepts of hermeneutics and exegesis "fit" in a schematic or blueprint that is centered on inductive study? Perhaps, a simple way to say this is-given you have a Bible study method, is it then based on a hermeneutic and is exegesis then a step (s) you take in your inductive study. I'm dealing right now on the conceptual level, but I have to account for original language studies. Thanks for your help.
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Sharon said:
The first workbook took you through the "scenes" of Revelation, asking you to observe what the text said, and asking you to draw each scene out (like stick people drawings).
There is an interesting methodology book
Handmade Midrash by Jo
Milgrom that deals with creating visual art as a way of getting into Scripture. While the book is clearly not Evangelical in its sense of Scripture, it is tied to the Jewish tradition of Scripture study. Of course, I would love to see it in Logos. It would support my argument for graphic capabilities in notes.[:)]Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Ronald S Keyston Jr said:
EDIT: BTW, if you wouldn't mind sending me a quick e-mail at ron [dot] keyston [at] evrazincna [dot] com when you get a chance, I wanted to tell you how my wife and I came across these materials. It was definitely a really neat "God thing" the way it all worked out. I don't want to derail the thread though.
I sure will!
But I'm guessing that the people on this thread wouldn't consider it a hijack at all and would LOVE to hear about the hand of God drawing you and moving you into position to seek Him all the more diligently![:)]
As far as that goes, this thread seems to get resurrected in different forms every couple of weeks and I am always so thrilled to hear about His sheep hearing His voice, following Him, and wanting to hear His voice all the more. We are the sheep of His pasture--what a great pasture we live in, a perfect pasture because it's HIS. (I'd like to make a little remark here about what it TRULY means to "go green", but I will refrain.)[H] And HE is our Shepherd, taking care of us, leading us to the choicest places to munch on our lunches, all the while, He, OUR Shepherd is sitting there with us, speaking to us, telling us of His plans--His great and mighty plans, His merciful plans, His wrathful plans, His righteous and true plans, His imminent plans! Oh, I do love Him...
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Hi Joan,
The Song of Solomon tapes were not an inductive study, they didn't have one on Song of Solomon then. It probably was from a weekend couples conference or women's conference (Kay doesn't speak herself at the men's conferences.) When Kay actually teaches, it is different than when she writes a study book. She gets right to the heart of the matter in a short time. And the radio and television teachings aren't the really good stuff either. When she takes you through, say the book of Jude, in a weekend, or if you are blessed enough to be able to take one of their pilot courses and then be in the audience for Kay's teaching on each chapter, well, I can't tell you what a feast you will eat. And those times are only a small taste of what our wedding feast with the Lord (someday soon) will be like! And I don't mean to glorify Kay, all the glory goes to God. He has given her some "biggie fries" in the Spiritual gift department! It's the WORD that we eat! It is seeing Him through His Word by the Spirit that makes it such a delicacy.
Your next question is being put into "I need a little bit more time to answer" box, if you don't mind. But you can know this--there is no eisogesis allowed! Nor will "Hermen" have any of his rules broken! [;)] I took an inductive Bible study course, taught by Dr. James McHaan, then president of Tyndale Bible College. What a treat! Anyway, his methodology and Precept's have never been in contradiction.
Gotta go again!
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Wait! Before I go...what happened to your avatar? What does this one mean? (I know that last one meant you are a very pretty lady--especially for being waaayyy older than I am!)[;)]
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The last avatar was how wonderful digital photography can make one look and remove a decade or two. This is one is devoted to my alma mater-MSU; Final four in basketball. It changes next week. We are into sports.
Sharon, please do not belabor the exegesis/hermeneutics question other than to perhaps, mention where you work in your original language/lexica studies. D.A. Carson on Exegetical Fallacies is a great read and does destroy eisegesis along with illegitimate totality transfer-a very common error. (You know, my chosen hermeneutics has a more pneumatic thrust. Lately discovered). And could you mention where you work in your commentaries? Yes, that would be great. I think if someone were to read this thread as is (and maybe I am way wrong) they might wonder why we have such large, fantastic libraries. Happy Spring!
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Sharon said:Jerry Walker said:
No I think she is talking about Bob Utley, from Texas!
Yay! Jerry!
Wow, I am going to give myself a couple of points for at least remembering that his name was Bob!
Jerry, have you used any of his materials? What do you think of them?
Sharon do I? I don't preach until I see what he has to say about the text Im studing. He is great! One of my favorites if not the favorite.
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Jerry Walker said:
Sharon do I? I don't preach until I see what he has to say about the text Im studing. He is great! One of my favorites if not the favorite.
Cool! I'm going to dig through some more of his materials. I saw, when I looked his name up online, a you-tube someone had done from one of his sermons. I loved it! In fact, I told several students about him at the time.
I am so glad you remembered his name! I am wondering if you were the one who mentioned him in that thread a couple months or so ago??? That's where I first heard of him, checked him out, and came up with a big thumb's up! Either way -- thanks, Jerry!
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Vote for the entire set of precept symbols in Logos here:
http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4?filter=top&page=3
It is currently on the 3rd page with only 5 votes.
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It now has 8 votes![:)]
Charlene
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Woohoo! Up to 13. It's now on page 2:
http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4?filter=top&page=2
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Can someone upload a file of what a complete set would look like? (Beyond what is on the sample card on the back of the workbooks?) I plan to rebuild a Markup palette from scratch anyway, and will share if and when it is possible in 4...
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John Norman said:
Can someone upload a file of what a complete set would look like? (Beyond what is on the sample card on the back of the workbooks?) I plan to rebuild a Markup palette from scratch anyway, and will share if and when it is possible in 4...
I think someone did that recently on another thread. I will see if I can find it.
EDIT: Try this...Kim Clayton posted a link to a blog with six pages of symbols:
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Sharon said:
I think you might find, for the most part, that the IISS are even more "lazy friendly" (to use your phrase)
than IO. In other words, you can pretty much read them without doing the study and figure out what their take is.Yep, you are absolutely correct. Our book showed up yesterday and it is a very "surface" survey with MAYBE 10-15 minutes of work a day. Ah well, we will start with this one (but probably do 3-4 days of work per day) and then move on to one of the PUP studies.
BTW, did you get my e-mail yesterday?
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Ron Keyston Jr said:
I think someone did that recently on another thread. I will see if I can find it.
EDIT: Try this...Kim Clayton posted a link to a blog with six pages of symbols:
http://community.logos.com/forums/t/11330.aspx?PageIndex=3
Thanks... here is a copy of what I use in Libronix 3 as a jpg file... (You may need to zoom to see it properly)
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John Norman said:
Thanks... here is a copy of what I use in Libronix 3 as a jpg file
That's awesome! I hope you don't mind if I steal a few of those?
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Please do... You can even find the Libronix 3 XML file on my blog at www.stilltruth.com...
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Ron Keyston Jr said:
Woohoo! Up to 13. It's now on page 2:
http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4?filter=top&page=2
And I just added my three to make it 23!
(PS Ronald, I don't have my gmailing done yet! I"ll read it before Prayer tonight and write you back tomorrow. Can't wait!)
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John Norman said:
Thanks... here is a copy of what I use in Libronix 3 as a jpg file...
Hi Norman,
Is there a video lying around somewhere that would help everyone with how you did this?[Y]
Thanks!
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Sharon said:
Hi Norman,
Is there a video lying around somewhere that would help everyone with how you did this?
Thanks!
No idea... I never got around to making videos or writing a tutorial on creating markups in detail.
The interface in Logos 4 is different, but the same options are still available, and it looks like a few new ones have been added... If I have some free time, will try recording a quick video, but kinda busy over Easter... God bless...0 -
That would be super, Norman!
Thanks in advance!
Charlene
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Update: The suggestion for completing the precept/inductive symbol collection is only 4 votes away from reaching the first page on UserVoice:
http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4?filter=top&page=2
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Special experiment for those who are brave.[:)] I have put together a utility to import Logos 4 Highlighting Palettes and posted it on my blog at http://www.stilltruth.com/blog/normanjd/import-utility-logos-4-palettes if you want to try it out. Note that not all the Libronix 3 Style creation features are available, so my Logos 4 palette is slightly modified to compensate. (For instance, used a Old English font for "Ark of Covenant" as the Engraved feature no longer exists....)
Will work on a video tutorial for creating styles some time next week as time permits.
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John Norman said:
Special experiment for those who are brave.
I have put together a utility to import Logos 4 Highlighting Palettes and posted it on my blog at http://www.stilltruth.com/blog/normanjd/import-utility-logos-4-palettes if you want to try it out. Note that not all the Libronix 3 Style creation features are available, so my Logos 4 palette is slightly modified to compensate. (For instance, used a Old English font for "Ark of Covenant" as the Engraved feature no longer exists....)Will work on a video tutorial for creating styles some time next week as time permits.
Thanks for this. I went to stilltruth after you mentioned it and couldn't find your blog. (I get lost on that site.) That's why I asked earlier about a video. Now that you put the link here I will go back and check it out. Thanks for being so helpful.
wordcenterministries.org
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John Norman said:Sharon said:
Hi Norman,
Is there a video lying around somewhere that would help everyone with how you did this?
Thanks!
No idea... I never got around to making videos or writing a tutorial on creating markups in detail.
The interface in Logos 4 is different, but the same options are still available, and it looks like a few new ones have been added... If I have some free time, will try recording a quick video, but kinda busy over Easter... God bless...Okay, here is a Flash based tutorial I did in WINK: http://cid-2710bca0d4d5e0f5.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/.Public/Logos4/highlighting.swf
You will need to download it and run it locally from IE as I don't have a good spot to host it for streaming (yet?)
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John, I've hosted wink movies at stilltruth, email me if you're having trouble making it work.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Karen Collins said:
This is Karen Jensen Collins--our family owns the copyright to the Jensen book that Bill Cook referenced above
It was delightful to see your posting here, Karen. I started learning inductive Bible study from Robert Traina. I believe he also taught your dad? Your dad's book has been a good tool through the years, one I've recommended to others.
I haven't looked at the PDF version as yet, but it's not difficult to convert a PDF into Kindle format to be published through the Amazon Kindle site. And getting it into Logos would be good as well. We need to keep that material in circulation.
Another website for the inductive approach is www.thewordisout.org. Dr. Alan Meenan, another of Dr. Traina's students, is the resource person there. And note Morris Proctor's Camp Logos seminars at www.mpseminars.com. Periodically he offers one focused on inductive Bible study.
David Housholder
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Thomas Black said:
John, I've hosted wink movies at stilltruth, email me if you're having trouble making it work.
Okay, here is working link at stilltruth for viewing online: http://www.stilltruth.com/book-page/logos-bible-software-4/highlighting
God Bless,
John
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John,
I've "massaged" the location of the movie in question...
http://www.stilltruth.com/blog/normanjd/highlighting-tutorial-video
Note that on the site hierarchy it is actually a sub page of the link John posted.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
It worked for me. Thanks
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MJ. Smith said:Sharon said:
The reason I do not is simply this--I don't believe I can possibly do, with Logos, what I can do with my hands and eyes, focusing just on the Word alone for that first step. I draw arrows all over, circle things, etc. that just can't be done with a program. Plus, you cannot just let Logos find every reference to a certain word. It's a program (magnificent, to be sure) but it can't deliberate over a dilemma and make a Spirit led choice like I can (like differentiating which servant in Isaiah should be Jesus or Israel, or whether it is referring to both, not to mention all the pronouns and possible synonyms!)
I'm also curious about this statement. Mind you, I only have an overview understanding of Arthur's work. But with the combination of the diagramming and highlighting tools, what does the Precept model do that can't be done in Logos? And when evaluating the reference list, why don't you find Logos conducive to Spirit-led discernment? I'm curious because your comments make me think that I may be misunderstanding Precept Bible study - and Bible study methods and techniques fascinate me.
I've been popping in and out of the forums as I have had access to a computer. Mine has been in the hospital and it looks terminal. [W] I have access right now and thought I'd look at your question again. The trail is probably rather cold to both of us by now, (sorry about that) but I told you I would answer and I thought I'd give it a shot while I could get online.
In reference to the question about the diagramming and highlighting tools - for one thing, my arrows are likely to span several pages and connect in many places with other arrows and circles - Logos can't do that as far as I know. I also mark much more than just key words and phrases. I guess you could say that Logos can't speak my Bible marking language, because, in essence that is what I do when marking. I am using those markings essentially as another language, which Logos just does not speak. :-) And amazingly, I can look at my Bible and recognize the markings as expressed meaning (logos), not simply marking.
As far as being Spirit led on making lists - to use the Isaiah example already given, when I am reading through the text during the first part of the process (which takes months) I start to see things that were unnoticed by me during the first few readings. I become more and more familiar with the text. I start to notice all the different references to the One.
In the initial stages of studying, I would not be able to discern all of these, perhaps even most of them. But as other pieces of the Isaiah puzzle fall into place during my repeated observational/interrogatory readings, I am more and more able to discern whether the world arm should be Arm or arm, whether servant is Servant or servant, Branch or branch, One or one, etc.
I could tell Logos to mark all those for me in the first place, but that would be counterproductive and even dangerous. I would still have to go back and put each one in its context before I could make an accurate conclusion. The reality is that the context for each of them is not just a few verses surrounding them, not just the chapter they are in, nor is it even a large segment of the book of Isaiah. The context of each word in Isaiah is the entire book of Isaiah because that is the environment in which each of them dwell. (And of course, that is not even mentioning the book of Isaiah's larger environment.)
To use a very simple example. If you came to my house you would notice many things, but you would notice more things the longer you stayed. And you would notice more things the more often you came to my house. And you would notice more things the less obstructed by distractions during each visit. You would notice many things if I pointed them out to you, as well. Now I could give you a list of things to notice, and you would be able to find them all, with time. But you would not really know their neighborhood (context) if you noticed them as part of a list rather than as a part of the environment in which they dwelt. The reason being is that the list needs to come from doing an overview, not just a gathering of words.
You could take my list of things for you to notice and find the paper clip that is in the bookshelf - but you wouldn't know the meaning of the paper clip unless the context defined it for you. You could guess, reason, speculate, even do word studies on paper clips and bookcases, read commentaries on paper clips and bookcases, ask others about it, but you wouldn't know unless you studied my bookcase and my paper clip themselves. You would need to spend time with my paper clip and my bookcase in order to discover the truth for yourself. You would need to spend time in the room where my paper clip and my bookcase were. You would need to notice other things in the room, other chairs for example. You would need to know who lived in my house. You could never learn what the paper was doing in the bookcase unless you learned all those things and others - by first-hand observation. If Logos made a list for you that included the word paper clip and all references to paper clip, especially those that were in the vicinity of a bookcase, you still would not be able to discern the meaning. I can say that because I know the meaning. It is obscure. And no list in the world is going to reveal it. Only careful, dogged, personal investigative observation of the paper clip and its environment will do that.
What I have described thus far is only one very small piece of the process of inductive study (and very lightly described and clumbsily discussed at that). The work of the Holy Spirit is what makes my work of observation explode into supernatural understanding and knowledge. As I am searching the Word of God in Isaiah, listening, praying, diligently seeking, He leads me into Truth. He teaches me. He wrote the book and He wants me to hear and understand what He has said and is saying to me.
It is during the beginning of this wonderful blessing of the method that my arrows, circles, boxes, markings, colorings begin to fill the pages with His message. That's because He is saying, "Child, do you see this? Look here, Child, and notice this particular word. Have you seen it before? Yes, you have. Where have you seen it? Why do you think I said it before? Why do you think I am saying it again? Child, the reason is this...." And then He tells me, shows me, teaches me. Sometimes it is a deep spiritual truth, sometimes it is a small little glorious nugget that builds my faith in Who He is and what He has said. And sometimes it is something so elementary that I can't believe I didn't see it myself - and then I am once again reminded that it is He Who gives knowledge and understanding to men - and no one else. And I guarantee you that what God has taught me Himself, I understand and I remember. He writes it on my heart, the way I write it in my Bible. My responsibility is to respond rightly to each and every thing He shows me - forever!
Accurate interpretation flows out of diligent observation and righteous application begins the moment the observation touches understanding.
Oh, MJ, this seems to me to be a very impotent rendering of the answer to your questions. They are good questions. I pray God will take my words, straighten them out, and cause you to catch a glimpse of what a great tool He has given the world through those who have honed the art of inductive study for the rest of us. There is one needful thing, Jesus said--sitting at His feet and listening to Him. Biblical listening is "hearing and doing"--belief. It comes through His Word. He wrote His Book to us using words and we must listen to those words (none other) as closely and intently as we can. Then we must respond rightly to them.
Thanks for listening. Sorry again for being so tardy in my response.
Sharon
wordcenterministries.org
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Sharon said:
Thanks for listening. Sorry again for being so tardy in my response.
Thanks for the response. You've done an excellent job of identifying the shortcomings of Logos for this studying pattern.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Sharon said:
What I have described thus far is only one very small piece of the process of inductive study (and very lightly described and clumbsily discussed at that). The work of the Holy Spirit is what makes my work of observation explode into supernatural understanding and knowledge. As I am searching the Word of God in Isaiah, listening, praying, diligently seeking, He leads me into Truth. He teaches me. He wrote the book and He wants me to hear and understand what He has said and is saying to me.
Sharon, your description of the process is excellent even inspired, not light or clumbsily. Thanks for taking the time to share it. [:D]
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MJ. Smith said:KimClayton said:
Many people will not attempt a study without something-a book or these study guides.
I find this to be a very sad statement - certainly something that I have seen but usually for a short period of time. What is the experience of others?
My experience has been that it is far more than "many", but rather most, and a very bloated mos,t at that, who only "study" the Bible through a book "about" the Bible.
Very few people, on the other hand, really feel able, or comfortable enough to study the Bible--period. This is in large part, I believe, to a lie that Satan spreads through men (not men outside the church, but men inside the church) which is--"No one can know the Bible except for a few who have gone to Bible college or Seminary." The lie continues with, "I am not smart enough." and spreads into the regions of false humility with, "How could I possibly know the truth for myself. That would be prideful. I must listen to those who are better and more knowledgable than I." And then there is the, "No one agrees on what the Bible says, so how could I possibly figure it out?" This is propogated by Satan, the "birds in the branches" of Matthew 13, and the lazy depraved flesh of men themselves. Most people don't want to know how to study once they find they actually have to study in order to know truth for themselves. Most people like to be told what to do and told what to believe--it's easier that way and they are deceived into thinking it is safer as well. And most people don't want to know truth for themselves because Truth is demanding, far more demanding that what the world teaches them they should endure. They would rather pick and choose what to believe from what they choose to listen to. And even at this, most people don't hear....
But some do...and to those few...I would do anything I could to help them.
Another lie from Satan, which keeps people from studying the Bible is one which keeps people from even reading the Bible and eating the Word by which they are to live. It is this, "The Bible is not only way too hard, but it is way too big to read more than maybe once in your lifetime." The present day version of this lie is, "The Bible is way too big to read several, even many times a year. It would take a year to do it." Once again, people have believed a lie from Satan. It doesn't take that long to read the Bible at all!
Reading and studying are different, although you need to read to study, and as you read you will learn. We eat physical food regularly for a reason. It is needed for a reason - life. We don't go long periods of time without it. We don't stock up on it and then go without it for a few days, weeks, or longer. So it is with the Word of God. We live by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Job says that he esteemed the Word of God as more necessary that his daily food. So should we.
Just to look at the reading side of obsorbing the Word of God, what would most people answer if they were asked how long it takes to read the Bible? Have you ever guessed at the number, or logged the number of hours needed? It's amazingly different from the, "Let's use a plan and see if we can make it through in one year." philosophy. Our ministry has read through the Bible together yearly, just to show to anyone who would listen (and that includes the principalities) that God's Word must be heard in the world! It should be the loudest longest sound from the lips of His creation. We read hour after hour, each person reading 15-30 minutes, and guess how long it takes? (And I should mention that reading out loud takes longer than reading silently. Also, we have young readers who are slower than adults, as well.) How long? Well, year after year it has taken us almost exactly 77 hours. Do the math on that and anyone will see that if you stretch out reading the Bible into a year-long task, it will only allow you to read the Bible for less than 13 minutes per day! What a travesty! What other book would you spend that kind of meagerly time with and expect to get anything out of it!
And yet Satan's lie continues to sound forth, "The Bible is big and hard." I cry out louder and longer, "The Bible is not big and hard - it is the very breath of God, the very breath of the Most High God, Who wants us to listen to Him." We have listened to the wrong breaths - those of Satan and those of our flesh.
BTW - I am not advocating rushing through the Bible reading without understanding. I am simply trying to dispel the lie that you need an entire year in order to "get the job done". The bar is not at the right height, it is lowered so far toward the ground that it actually takes effort to get under it. I am saying that if you put the bar at "just reading out loud" height, you don't have any effort at all walking under it--you don't even have to bend. I'm not even talking about raising the bar at all. I do believe that this particular lie has a heavy-duty influence on why people use books about the Bible to "study" the Bible, rather than studying the Bible itself.
I personally believe everyone should be reading the Bible through verse by verse, book by book, their entire lives and also studying the books of the Bible, verse by verse, book by book their entire lives - both reading and studying, going on daily. Once someone tastes of the water, if they are being drawn to the Father, they will keep on drinking.
Well, you asked for the experiences of others. This is my experience - based upon hundreds and even thousands of people through many, many years. I am convinced that there needs to be a clarion call to teach people how to study the Bible for themselves, to show them how, to urge them to do it, to stand in the gap for the millions who have listened to lies rather than to the voice of their Creator.
He stands over His Word to perform it! Praise the Almighty God, Jehovah! He is Worthy to be praised from the rising of the sun to the setting of the same - at all times, in every place!
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