Do you have word templates for MSWord-arthur, recipient, people, At A Glance - already formatted similar to those in the Inductive Study Bible?

Kaye Anderson said:

I have Kay Arthur's book mentioned above on my Kindle and I have two of her study guides (Daniel and Revelation) in print.  I didn't feel like I was getting all I could from the study using the book as a first timer so I went to her website, found archives and downloaded her 50 30-minute audio lessons on Daniel.  It took a bit to download them but I also got the study guide and have been using them with much better success...and they were all free!

Hi Kaye (I hope you are still around), can you point me to those audio lessons on Kay Arthur's site?  I've looked around there, but only see audio lessons available for purchase in the store...and even the Daniel ones available for purchase don't total up to 50 lessons unless I'm missing something.  Thanks!

MJ. Smith said:

Okay, what does PUP stand for?

Precept upon precept

MJ. Smith said:

I'm also curious about this statement. Mind you, I only have an overview understanding of MacArthur's work. But with the combination of the diagramming and highlighting tools, what does the Precept model do that can't be done in Logos? And when evaluating the reference list, why don't you find Logos conducive to Spirit-led discernment? I'm curious because your comments make me think that I may be misunderstanding Precept Bible study - and Bible study methods and techniques fascinate me.

I assume you mean Kay Arthur, not MacArthur?

While I can't speak for Sharon, I believe what was meant by the comment is that by doing the precept observation in Logos, there is often a temptation to let the program do most of the work for you (i.e. having it find and highlight all the pronouns, keywords, etc) rather than searching and finding them for yourself.

Ted Hans said:

For those interested, Jensen's Survey of the Old and New Testament is available in Logos http://www.logos.com/products/details/4499

Just some further information the NT volume is on special through March Madness....Maybe they will take some money off the set if you buy it....since part of the set is on special....

I guess my question was more challenging the concept rather than a genuine inquisitiveness. I've come to the conclusion that study guides are not really inductive. The line of questioning is geared to draw you to the author's conclusions. The only benefit I see that comes from them is to teach you the things you should be looking for in any given text (cultural, linguistic, theological) so that you are able to move beyond the guides and use Logos4 [:D] to deepen and enhance your study. You progress to use your Bible dictionary/encyclopedia, Greek/Hebrew tools and develop your own methodology.

In Christ,

Jonathan

The study guides keep you on track, keep you focused on what the context of the book is really about-the theme.  Many people will not attempt a study without something-a book or these study guides.  Many who do inductive studies using Kay's PUP Study guides do eventually begin to do there own.  I did Isaiah last year and each week shared with the class many wonderful nuggets from the Text that Kay said nothing about.  Now, with that being said, the Precept study guides don't make any claim that they reveal all that the Text of Isaiah has to say, but it was the first PUP study in which I was very disappointed with because I thought many valuable truths regarding God's attributes in Isaiah were not even mentioned. I think the study ought to be renamed as an IN & Out study.

I would also like to point out these studies point people in the right direction-especially people with reading handycaps.  I have a reading comprehension 'problem' and learning the inductive method actually helped my overall reading skills in all other kinds of genre.

MJ. Smith said:

Sharon said:

PUP books

Okay, what does PUP stand for?

Boy, am I behind or what!!!  I am under several heavy deadlines and will be so for awhile and have not been following even my own discussions.  I saw this a few days back and am just now able to answer.  If it is okay, I'd like to wait and answer the other 2-3 questions you have in a later post because I am swamped tonight as usual.  I will tackle the easy one first.  [:P]

I see you already have the answer - Precept Upon Precept.  I'll elaborate a little on that.  It USED to be, 10-20 years ago, that Precept had three basic style study guides.  One was called, "In and Out" with the idea that you were, as you did the study, supposed to "take it in and live it out".  These required 1-2 hours per week (although I believe, in all reality, it only took about 45 minutes).  Their hope was that as you took in the Word and lived out the Word, you would gradually want more and actually need more (kinda like metabolism - you need more calories as you burn calories - and as you increase your metabolism you need more calories to sustain the level you are at).  "Precept Upon Precept" required 7 hours per week.

They also had a third study guide.  These were for children and were called "Line Upon Line".  I actually thought these were better than the "In and Out" for adults.

Leaders were expected to spend at least 20 per week on each course they taught, whether PUP, LUL, or IO.

After a year or so, I decided not to offer the "In and Out" guides at all to my students simply because EVERYONE needs more than what they offered.  If people thought they could sustain themselves doing just a little bit of studying they were deceiving themselves.  It was like saying all you need to eat is just a snack a day.  It was not sufficient.  Therefore, I called my students to a greater commitment.  Most of them rose to the challenge.  Most of those who had only been doing IO were pleasantly surprised at how much more they learned when doing PUP simply because of spending so much more time in God's Word.

These courses were augmented with training workshops held around the country which equipped people with study tools such as doing word studies, structuring, advanced leader's training, how to study topical studies, how to study a difficult subject, etc.

Much has stayed the same with Precept, but some has changed.  They constantly offer various workshops to accommodate the returning students.  One of the things that has changed is that the discipline expected, the commitment required, and the work itself has been diluted.  Unfortunately, and I think at least partially due to the popularity of these shorter and
"easier" courses themselves, the ministry does not seem to be heading back to their original standards.

Shortly before the lowering of the bar began, I found that I had taught all the Precept courses available, and started writing my own, for myself and for my students.  I have not taught a Precept course for over 10 years now, yet I still
bless the Lord for their ministry.  To be weaned from the study guides is what Precept encouraged from their leaders - keep growing in God's Word precept by precept into greater and greater maturity.

The method, the "old" way, was excellent and indeed, encouraged and exhorted students to excel still more.  The method, the "new" way, is lacking, IMHO, and although there is still a great harvest from the ministry, I fear, at times, something is wrong with much of the crop...

And I'm sure you have already ascertained that their studies (PUP, IO, and LUL) are taken from Isaiah and their logo is taken from Amos.  The interesting thing (on a side note) is that Isaiah's reference is definitely not a compliment, and neither is the vision in Amos.

I'm not here to do any PR work for Precept, although if someone is steered their way, I believe they will greatly benefit.  I am here to say that the method itself, inductive, is not just good, but fabulous.  It works - IF the student will do the work.  Precept's focus on inductive study throughout the years has consistently been  the necessity that the Bible be your primary source - I pray that will always remain so.

Gotta go!

Sorry Precept 101 (my version) got so long!

Sharon said:

One of the things that has changed is that the discipline expected, the commitment required, and the work itself has been diluted.  Unfortunately, and I think at least partially due to the popularity of these shorter and
"easier" courses themselves, the ministry does not seem to be heading back to their original standards.

Hi Sharon,

I know you said you are busy, so I don't know if you will be able to answer...but I've recently discovered Precept Ministries and absolutely love what I've learned so far about inductive study.  With that said though, I've heard from a couple people now that their methods have become diluted and more "lazy friendly" for lack of a better way to put it.  Do you know where I can get a hold of materials that teach the original intensive method?  A source for some of the original PUP guides would be great too.

Thanks!

John Norman said:

Based on my experience, the PUPs that are based on entire books of the Bible are still using the old methods.   The Topical studies, not so much.

That's good to know, thanks John.  My wife and I have been introducing ourselves to the method via the "Teach me to study the Bible in 28 days" book.  We planned on going into the more in-depth studies after that, but it looks like we ordered the wrong book.  We ordered one of the ones from the "New Inductive Study Series" which is apparently the series that is halfway between the "In & Out" and the PUP series in terms of depth.  I guess we will start with that one, then order one of the PUP workbooks next.

Thanks again for the info!

Ronald S Keyston Jr said:

I know you said you are busy, so I don't know if you will be able to answer...but I've recently discovered Precept Ministries and absolutely love what I've learned so far about inductive study.

Hi Ronald,

It blesses me more than you know whenever I hear a man get excited about studying the Bible inductively!  We need more men who are committed to hearing the Lord's words directly from Him through His Word by His Holy Spirit.  True expository preaching of the Word is lacking - and that is because true inductive study is lacking.  You simply cannot expositorally preach God's Word until you have studied it inductively!  (Excuse me while I step down from my soapbox.)

Yes, I am busy, but I can pop in and out and answer the easier questions as I can.  I don't mind being busy - I love serving my Master.  He's coming soon, you know!!!  And I want to be found faithful and about His business!

Ronald S Keyston Jr said:

Do you know where I can get a hold of materials that teach the original intensive method?  A source for some of the original PUP guides would be great too.

I wish I did, but other than asking on ebay or Craig's list - and hoping someone from the early years has some extra - I can't think of any place.  But the good news is that if you take all the training you can from them, you will learn the method.  The training, also less stringent than formerly, still is right on target.  Going to Chattanooga and taking one of their two week courses (on a particular book or subject) will bless you. (usually twice a year)  Or taking any of the weekend workshops around the country or at Chattanooga will all be useful, very useful.  It's not that they have altered the method, just lessened it.

And as you learn the method, you will be able to use it to study any of God's books as thoroughly as you want!  They are giving you a shovel and teaching you how to dig deeper (how to hold the shovel, how to use the shovel, where to dig, when to dig, what to look for when you dig, etc.), but you can dig for as long as you want and as deep as you want once you have your own shovel and are trained how to use it.  Make sense?

I will think a little on where to get ahold of some of the stuff.  I used to have all the old materials, but I have given so much of it away, and of course, lots of it is written in.  It is possible, though,  that I have some extras (don't know for sure because 15-20 years is a looooong time ago - especially for an ooooooold lady!), however, I will go through them.  If I find any, I will be happy to mail them to you!  I will be so blessed if I find any to send you!  We'll stay in touch, okay?

Oh, and here is quick list of books that help with the method:  (some are on Logos)

• Understanding and Applying The Bible - Robertson McQuilkin (this one's good)
• How to Read The Bible For All Its Worth - Fee & Stuart
• How to Read a Book - Mortimer Adler & Charles Van Doren (Mortimer - didn't know anyone actually had that name!)[;)]
• Independent Bible Study - Irving Jensen
• Traicha - can't remember the name of the book or his name right now... (I will - give me some time....[*-)]
• There is also someone else I just discovered - and I have it in my Logos library - and I think it looked good - can't remember....ooooh!  I'll find it and get back with you

Sorry this is all jumbled - but I wanted to respond asap - God says in Ephesians we are to redeem the time - buy every moment back, don't let Satan benefit by it and don't let it go to waste) and give it to God!  And I don't want you to lose ONE MOMENT!  It's not common to find a man with your heart and humility!  I want to do all I can to help!

About my Father's business...

Sharon

John Norman said:

Based on my experience, the PUPs that are based on entire books of the Bible are still using the old methods. 

Yes, they are still using the old method, it is, as I said to Ronald, not altered, just lessened.

John Norman said:

There is also a new set of study guides called something like "The 15 minute Inductive Study".   This is very much a lite version.

They are 45 minutes, and yes, very lite, and less than inductive.

John Norman said:

I think there is a effort to make the studies more friendly to non/new believers.  (I think they should be targeted to mature believers myself.)

I agree.

John Norman said:

(Yes sometimes the questions are leading, but overall I approve of PUP.)

I agree here, too.  I know that Kay has, far more than ANYONE I have ever known, kept her own beliefs to herself as much as possible and tried hard NOT to lead the students in the workbooks.  I write Observation Bible Study guides, and I know how hard that is to do.

Here's a couple of examples.  When I first started Precept 20 years ago, I bought the Spiritual Gifts workbook to find out what she taught out of fleshly curiosity (not a good thing, mind you!).  I read the whole workbook stem to stern and could not discern where she stood on the entire issue!  That's commendable!  The only way to find out was to do the study itself - by going to the WORD!

Second example, about 15 years ago I taught Revelation for the first time - a two year course at the time, and four workbooks.  The first workbook took you through the "scenes" of Revelation, asking you to observe what the text said, and asking you to draw each scene out (like stick people drawings).  This enabled the student to "see" what the text was saying - NO interpreting, just observing.  Lots and lots of students grumbled and whined saying they couldn't draw (well, who can?) and saying they didn't think it would help.  But, as teacher, I made them do it.

The class grew and grew until I was teaching many times during the week just to accomodate all the students.  And probably 99% of those students would ask me, so what does Precept say about the rapture?  And each time I would patiently answer that we were to study what the TEXT said.  Then I would tell them to get back to drawing!!! [8-|] At the time, I had never studied Revelation to teach it before, and the truth was, although many of the students probably thought I had a belief about the rapture, none of them realized just how unsure I was about its timing.  And Kay did not give anything away, even to the leaders!  For two long years we studied and studied - and it wasn't until the end that Kay addressed the subject, but by then, the students had a good grasp on the book of Revelation itself, and with future events as taught in the rest of the Bible.  That's pretty good evidence that she really tries to not lead students to her beliefs, but rather she leads them to the Word of God.

Gotta go!

Ronald S Keyston Jr said:

We planned on going into the more in-depth studies after that, but it looks like we ordered the wrong book.  We ordered one of the ones from the "New Inductive Study Series" which is apparently the series that is halfway between the "In & Out" and the PUP series in terms of depth.  I guess we will start with that one, then order one of the PUP workbooks next.

I think you might find, for the most part, that the IISS are even more "lazy friendly" (to use your phrase) [;)] than IO.  In other words, you can pretty much read them without doing the study and figure out what their take is.