Is there any scripture passage that can prove that God allows for us to defend ourselves when we are
This is somehow an issue for or against Christian Pacifism. I do not want to start an argument. Just the verses that might prove or disapprove the statement on the title of this post. No need for explanations...
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1 Cor 10:23
but more seriously you can't really do ethics like that... see New Testament Ethics in Lexham Bible Dictionary.
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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Exodus 22:2 ??? Psalm 29:11
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Have you read the book of Esther?
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Matthew 5:39
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“Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing.” (Romans 13:1–6, NKJV)
Acts 26 - Paul defending himself before King Agrippa
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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No scripture passage proves anything—it simply states a position which you are free to accept or reject. Too many look for "PROOF" when there is none. This is not a scientific exercise.Pinoy Preacher said:This is somehow an issue for or against Christian Pacifism. I do not want to start an argument. Just the verses that might prove or disapprove the statement on the title of this post. No need for explanations...
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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I thought before one of the the Trinity left planet earth, there were instructions to carry a sword (2 also allowed Luke 22.36 +). But per Mat 10.34, it doesn't appear to be for defense.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Peace, Denise! Thanks for sharing the Luke 22 passage! Context is Everything, eh??? *smile*
Peter actually used one of the two swords they had that night ...... Luke doesn't say it's Peter but elsewhere we read that Peter was impetuous again ....
I like Lenski here: ... fascinating!
50) Before Jesus is able to answer a blow is already struck by Peter. It is rather remarkable that all the synoptists do not mention Peter’s name in this affair. It is suggested that even as late as the time when they wrote they desired to shield him because the Sanhedrin was still in power; the fact is that we really do not know the reason. Peter slashed at the first man before him, the slave of the high priest, and intended to split his head open; but the man evidently dodged, and the sword sheared off his right ear, being stopped by the heavy armor on the servant’s shoulder.
The article “the slave” puts this man in a class by himself. He is not one of the Temple police; he belongs to the high priest himself. He thus appears to be a trusted and important member of the high priest’s own household who had been sent with this expedition as the high priest’s personal representative. That explains why he is out in front under Peter’s sword. And that, too, is why John, who was so well acquainted with the high priest’s family, states his name (Malchus) and even refers to his relative.
51) “Answering” does not refer to the question that is asked in v. 49; this Greek participle is frequently used in a wider sense with reference to any response to a situation or an action. So Jesus here responds to the crucial situation that had been so suddenly created by Peter. The other three evangelists record Jesus’ rebuke to Peter, Luke omits that and tells how Jesus stepped in, saying, “Permit this far!” and healed the man’s ear.
The translation and the sense of this brief word are in dispute. Some hold that because of the participle “answering” it is addressed to the disciples, but it is certainly no answer to their question. Then, too, the words are separated: “Let be, no farther!” and tell the disciples to go no farther. As καί indicates, the word evidently accompanies the healing act. Jesus’ captors were about to lay hands on him, and after Peter’s striking the blow a rush of the captors might be made upon the disciples. Jesus steps forward, says to the captors, “Let be up to this!” namely, “Permit this much!” that is, that he be allowed to touch and to heal the ear, and at once suits the action to the word.
This is a remarkable miracle, the last that Jesus wrought, and it is performed in the interest of one of his captors. It has been called his only surgical healing. “Having touched the ear” leads some to think that the ear was not severed, that only a slight cut had been made that caused bleeding so that Jesus only stopped the bleeding. But it is hard to believe that the blow had done no more serious damage. The better view is that the ear was slashed off and hung by a shred of skin so that a mere touch of Jesus restored it perfectly.
What impression did this miracle make? We hear of none. But up to his dying day Malchus bore in that healed ear the mark of Christ’s omnipotence and grace. This is one of the plain miracles which ought to settle the contention that faith is necessary in the person to be healed—or did Malchus have faith? With his prompt act Jesus stopped any bad consequences of Peter’s act for the disciples whom he was shielding.[1]
[1] Lenski, R. C. H. (1961). The Interpretation of St. Luke’s Gospel (pp. 1081–1083). Minneapolis, MN: Augsburg Publishing House.
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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This question is better suited to a web search or a request for resource recommendations. Googliing "Bible Paficism" my first hit:
Bible Pacifism
Christian Pacifism is the Scriptural Position
by Jim Foxvog
Reasons For Biblical Pacifism
Scriptures Supporting Pacifism
Old list of more war & peace scriptures
Short Bibliography with links
Selected Web resources
Answers to Objections
Reasons For Christian Pacifism
Pacifism is trust in God. It is a reasonable response to normal Christian beliefs.
This page is written for those who believe the Bible is the authoritative word of God. If you are a believer in Jesus, believe him when he said, "scripture cannot be broken" (John 10.35)
The Holy Spirit helps us understand God's word. Pray to be open to God's Spirit's guiding you as you seek the truth in his word.
God made the universe. He made all things through and for Jesus Christ (Col 1.16 , Heb 1.2 ). Jesus took part in the creation of the universe and has a full understanding of its purpose and how it works. He is now the one who sustains and upholds the universe by his word of power. ( Heb 1.3 )
Jesus revealed to us how to live in accordance with how his creation works. “Love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you.” ( Mt 5.44 , Lu 6.27 , Lu 6.3 ) “Do not use force against an evil man.” ( Mt 5.39 ) “Do not resist evil with evil.” “Forgive and you will be forgiven.” (Lu 6.37 ) “Do not be anxious about your life.”( Lu 12.22 ) “He who lives by the sword will perish by the sword.”
( Mat 26.52 ) “In everything do to others as you would have them do to you.” (Mat 7.12 )
The rest of the New Testament contains more of the same. “Do not return evil for evil.” ( 1 Pet 3.9 , Rom 12.17 , 1 Thes 5.15 )
“Overcome evil with good.”( Rom 12.21 ) “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.’” (Rom 12.19 )
Then there are the Biblical statements that will get people questioning your patriotism if you take them seriously. If we consider “ First take the log out of your own eye.”
( Luk 6.42 ) we might question what our own nation has done. “Alas for those …who rely on horses, who trust in chariots.” ( Isa 31:1 )
“What would Jesus do? [WWJD] ” Christians rightly ask. Jesus was perfectly capable of self defense. He chose not to defend himself, to let his enemies kill him and even asked that his murderers be forgiven. We are to follow in his ways. There's a great bumper sticker : "Whom would Jesus bomb?" [WWJB] We are specifically called to follow Jesus example of suffering love and non-retaliation. ( 1 Peter 2.21). Jesus died for the life his enemies. ( Rom 5.8, 10 ) Jesus gave this as the specific reason to love our enemies, "so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven" ( Mat 5.45 ) -- to be like him! Jesus was questioned about the death penalty. God specifically commanded it in the Old Testament. Jesus did not say it was undeserved. His answer: "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone ." (John 8.7 ) Does not the same reasoning apply to a nation seeking to "punish" another "evil nation"?
God will take care of us and is fully capable of handling those who do evil. We should not fear people, even those who could kill us (Matt 10.28 ) This is the basic truth, not some sweet cliché. We are conquerors in all things by being in Jesus -- nothing can separate us from the love of God. (Rom 8.37 - 39 )
It is a deeply held popular belief that the only way to stop evil is with by violent force. This is the theme of most adventure stories of all genres, of comic books and TV shows and movies. If we trust violence more than we trust God, this is idolatry. God's truth is that our real enemies are spiritual (Eph 6.12) and are to be opposed by spiritual means (2 Cor 10.4)Our culture teaches us to oppose evil with violent force. But God, who created the universe, shows us that the world is not founded on violence, but is built and designed differently. Love is what works because that is how the totality of all that is was designed.
We live in “a world created by God who actively invites human beings into relationships of trust and intimacy.
It is a universe structured ultimately not by coercion and fear, but by the power of love. For this reason, those
who are suspicious of all claims about truth need not be afraid that this assertion is one more power move.
Indeed, the very essence of the good news of the Christian gospel is that our God is a noncoercive God who
invites rather than compels. The Jesus we claim as Lord came to us in the form of a servant, taught an ethic
of vulnerability and compassion, and allowed himself to be killed rather than to take up the sword and defend
the truth with violence.” [quote from Choosing Against War: A Christian View by John D. Roth ]
Scriptures supporting Pacifism used in above discussion - Pacifism is Biblical
Col 1.16 for in him [the son] all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him.
Heb 1.2-3 In these last days [God] has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom he also created the worlds. 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Mt 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
Lu 6:27 But I say to you that listen, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 29 If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also;
Lu 6:35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.
Mt 5:39 But I say to you, Do not make use of force against an evil man; but to him who gives you a blow on the right side of your face let the left be turned. -Bible in Basic English
Lu 6:37 "Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;
Lu 12:22 And he said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat, nor about your body, what you shall put on.
Mt 26:52 Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
Mt 7:12 In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets.
1 Peter 3.8 Finally, all of you, have unity of spirit, sympathy, love of the brethren, a tender heart and a humble mind. :9 Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling; but on the contrary bless, for to this you have been called, that you may obtain a blessing.
Ro 12.17-21 Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. 18 If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 No, "if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads."
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good .
1Th 5:15 See that none of you repays evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to all.
Lu 6:42 Or how can you say to your neighbor, ’Friend, let me take out the speck in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor’s eye.
Isa 31:1 Alas for those who go down to Egypt for help and who rely on horses, who trust in chariots because they are many and in horsemen because they are very strong, but do not look to the Holy One of Israel or consult the LORD!
Rom 5.8,10 8 But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.... 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
1 Peter 2.21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
22 He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips. 23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he trusted to him who judges justly.Eph 6.12 For our struggle is not against enemies of blood and flesh, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers of this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
2 Co 10:4 The weapons with which we fight are not human weapons, but are mighty for God in overthrowing strong fortresses.
John 8.7 But when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Matt 10.28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s will. 30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.
Rom 8.37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
topFor deeper understanding, look up these scripture verses in your own Bible and read them in context.THE ROOTS OF WAR
James 4.1-2 What is the cause of wars and fighting among you? is it not in your desires which are at war in your bodies? 2 You are burning with desire, and have not your desire, so you put men to death; you are full of envy, and you are not able to get your desire, so you are fighting and making war; you have not your desire, because you do not make request for it.
Gal. 5.19-23 Now the works of the flesh are clear, which are these: evil desire, unclean things, wrong use of the senses, 20 Worship of images, use of strange powers, hates, fighting, desire for what another has, angry feelings, attempts to get the better of others, divisions, false teachings, 21 Envy, uncontrolled drinking and feasting, and such things: of which I give you word clearly, even as I did in the past, that they who do such things will have no part in the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, a quiet mind, kind acts, well-doing, faith, 23 Gentle behavior, control over desires: against such there is no law.
Matt. 6.24 You cannot serve God and mammon.
Luke 4.5 Then the devil led Jesus up and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And the devil said to him, "To you I will give their glory and all this authority; for it has been given over to me, and I give it to anyone I please. 7 If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours."
THE WAY OF PEACE
Luke 2. 14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among men of good-will.
John 14.27. Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you.
Matt. 5.9. Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called sons of God.
Jas. 3.18. The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for them that make peace.
Rom. 10.15. How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace.
Eph. 6.14 f. Stand therefore . . . having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace.
Eph. 4.1-3 I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beseech you to walk worthily of the calling wherewith you were called, with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; giving diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Heb. 12.14 Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord.
Rom. 16.20. The God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly.
2 Cor. 13.11 Finally, brethren . . be perfected; be comforted; be of the same mind; live in peace: and the God of love and peace shall be with you.
Phil. 4.7 The peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus..
THE VICTORY of SELFLESSNESS
Matthew. 11. 29. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Philipians. 2. 5 10. Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant. He humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross. Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name; that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow.
Matthew 5. 3, 5. Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Matthew 20. 25-28. You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. Not so shall it be among you: but whosoever would become great among you shall be your minister; and whosoever would be first among you shall be your servant: even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Matthew 23.12 Whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled; and whosoever shall humble himself shall be exalted.
1 Peter 5. 5 -6. God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble. Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time.Revelation 12:11 And they have conquered him [the great dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world {v.9}] by the bloodof the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.
THE COMMANDMENT OF LOVE
Matt. 22. 37-40 Jesus said to him, ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.
Gal. 5.14 The whole law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; you shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Rom. 13.10, 8 Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments ... are summed up in this word, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
Matt. 5.44
John 13. 34 f. A new commandment I give unto you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples.
1 John 4. 20 If a man say, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar: for he that loves not his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.
I Cor. 13.4 f. Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; ... bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails.
1 Thess. 3.12. The Lord make you to increase and abound in love toward one another, and toward all men.
1 Pet. 1. 22. Seeing you have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth unto unfeigned love of the brethren, love one another from the heart fervently.
1 Pet 4.8. Above all things be fervent in your love among yourselves; for love covers a multitude of sins.
THE DUTY OF FORGIVENESS
Luke 23. 34. Jesus said, 'Father forgive them; for they know not what they do.'
Mark 11.25 Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against any one; that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
Luke 17.3 f. If your brother sin, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he sin against you seven times in the day, and seven times turn again to you saying, I repent; you shall forgive him.
Col. 3.12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do.
Eph. 4. 31f. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and railing, be put away from you, with all malice: and be you kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving each other, even as God also in Christ forgave you.
CHRIST S WAY OF MEETING EVIL
1 Pet. 2.21ff. Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow his steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered threatened not; but committed himself to him that judges righteously.
Matthew 26.47 And while [Jesus] was still talking, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a band armed with swords and sticks, from the chief priests and those in authority over the people. 48 Now the false one had given them a sign saying, The one to whom I give a kiss, that is he: take him. 49 And straight away he came to Jesus and said, Master! and gave him a kiss. 50 And Jesus said to him, Friend, do that for which you have come. Then they came and put hands on Jesus, and took him. 51 And one of those who were with Jesus put out his hand, and took out his sword and gave the servant of the high priest a blow, cutting off his ear. 52 Then says Jesus to him, Put up your sword again into its place: for all those who take the sword will come to death by the sword. 53 Does it not seem possible to you that if I make request to my Father he will even now send me an army of angels? (BBE)
John 18.36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. (KJV)
John 12. 47. I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Luke 9. 54 f. When his disciples saw this, they said, Lord, would you that we bid fire to come down from heaven, and consume them? But he turned and rebuked them.
1 Cor. 4. 12. Being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we endure; being defamed, we intreat.
Jas. 4. 12. One only is the lawgiver and judge, even he who is able to save and to destroy: but who are you that judge your neighbor?
Matt. 7.12. Whatsoever you would that men should do unto you, even so do you also unto them.
Luke 6. 27 f. Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you, bless them that curse you, pray for them that despitefully use you.
Matt. 5.39. Resist not him that is evil: but whosoever smites you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also.
I Cor. 6. 7. Why not rather take wrong? Why not rather be defrauded?
2 Tim. 2. 24. The Lord s servant must not strive, but be gentle towards all forbearing in meekness, correcting them that oppose themselves.
Rom. 12. 14 f. Bless them that persecute you; bless, and curse not. . . . Render to no man evil for evil. . If you can, so far as it depends on you, live at peace with all the world... Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." But if your enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him to drink: for in so doing you shall heap coals of fire upon his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
1 Thess. 5.15 . See that none render unto any one evil for evil; but always follow after that which is good, one toward another, and toward all.
1 Pet. 3. 8 f. Finally, be you all like-minded, compassionate, loving as brethren, tenderhearted, : humble mindednot rendering evil for evil, or reviling for reviling; but contrariwise blessing; for hereunto were you called, that you should inherit a blessing.
THE WAY OF THE CROSS
Rom. 5. 8. God commends his own love towards us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Heb. 12 . 2. Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame.
1 Pet. 4.1. Forasmuch then as Christ suffered in the flesh, arm you yourselves also with the same mind.
2 Cor. 4. 8 10. We are pressed on every side, yet not straitened; perplexed, yet not unto despair; pursued, yet not forsaken; smitten down, yet not destroyed; always bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our body.
Matt. 16. 24 If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross, and follow me. .
Heb. 13.12f. Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people through his own blood, suffered without the gate. Let us therefore go forth unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
THE MINISTRY OF RECONCILIATION
Rom. 5. 10 f. If, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; and not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
Col. 1. 19 f. It was the good pleasure of the Father that in him should all the fulness dwell; and through him to reconcile all things unto himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross.
Eph. 2. 14 17. He is our peace, who made both one, and broke down the middle wall of partition, having abolished in his flesh the enmity . . . that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: and he came and preached peace to you that were far off, and peace to them that were nigh.
2 Cor. 5. 18 f. All things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and gave .unto us the ministry of reconciliation; to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
THE FAMILY OF NATIONS
Eph. 3.15 I bow my knees unto the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named.
Eph. 4. 25. Wherefore, putting away falsehood, speak you truth each one with his neighbor: for we are members one of another.
1 Cor. 12. 13. In one spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit.
Rom. 10. 12. For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him.
Gal. 3. 28. There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male or female: for you are all one man in Christ Jesus.
Col. 3.11 There cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all.
THE MORAL EQUIVALENT OF WAR
1 Tim. 6.12. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on the life eternal.
1 John 5.4 This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
2 Cor. 10. 3-5. For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but mighty before God to the casting down of strong holds ; casting down imaginations, and every high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God, and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.
Eph 6.12f For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Wherefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and, having done all, to stand.
2 Tim. 2. 3. Take your part in suffering hardship, as a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2 Tim. 4. 7 f. . I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith: henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give to me at that day: and not only to me, but also to all them that have loved his appearing.
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If you know some scriptures to add to the list, contact me at foxvog@plowcreek.org
FOR FURTHER READING - Pacifism Bibliography
There is a vast and growing literature on Christian peacemaking and the gospel of peace. The references cited below represent only a small sampling of this rich bibliography.
Biblical/Exegetical
EIler, Vernon. War and Peace from Genesis to Revelation : King Jesus̓ Manual of Arms for the ‘Armless Scottdale, PA: Herald Press, 1981 . Suggests that peace is a central motif in the entire biblical story, both Old Testament and New Testament,
Klassen, William. Love of Enemies Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1984 . An overview of the biblical themes of peace, with special attention to the Old Testament and intertestamental periods.
McSorley, Richard, New Testament Basis of Peacemaking Washington, DC: Georgetown University, Center for Peace Studies, 1979 , A Catholic defense, in simple and clear language of Christ̓s call to peace and a refutation of just War arguments.
Yoder, John Howard. The Politics of Jesus: Vicit Agnus Noster , 2nd ed. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdrnans, 1999 , A classic text offering a New Testament basis for the relevance of Christian pacifism.
Theological
Brown, Dale W Biblical Pacifism: A Peace Church Perspective Elgin, IL: Brethren Press, 1986 . A survey of contemporary pacifist positions informed by biblically based strategies for peacemaking.
Cahill, Lisa Sowle. Love Your Enemies: Discipleship, Pacifism and Just War Theory Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1994 . A theological examination of the theory of just War and the practice of pacifism from the perspective of a Catholic ethicist.
Clouse, Robert C. War: Four Christian Views Downers Grove, IL: Intervarsity Press, 1981 . A snapshot perspective on various attitudes toward war and peace in the Christian tradition.
Sider, Ron. Christ and Violence Scottdale, PA: Herald Press, 1979 . Sets forth a biblical basis for pacifism in which peace is central to salvation.
Personal Stories
Arnold, Johann Christoph. Why Forgive? Farmington, PA: The Plough Publishing House, 2000 . A collection of powerful stories of victims whose paths to healing came through forgiveness.
Gish, Arthur C. Hebron Journal: Stories of Nonviolent Peacemaking Scottdale, PA: Herald Press, 2001 . A personal perspective on the challenges of peacemaking in the Middle East,
Peachey, Titus and Linda Gehman Peachey, eds. Seeking Peace Intercourse, PA: Good Books, 1991 . Stories of individuals who attempted. sometimes at great cost, to live out their beliefs in peace.
Applied Peacemaking
Herr, Robert and Judy Zimmerman Herr, eds. Transforming Violence : Linking Local and Global Peacemaking Scottdale, PA: Herald Press, 1998 . An ecumenical collection of insights on peacemaking by Christians in Africa, Asia, Europe. and North
America.
Sampson, Cynthia and John Paul Lederach. From theGround Up: Mennonite Contributions to International Peacemaking Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2000 . Case studies on peacemaking and conflict resolution that link spirituality with pragmatic efforts at international peacebuilding.
Stassen, Glen, ed. Just Peacemaking. Ten Practices for Abolishing War Cleveland, OH: Pilgrim Press, 1998 . Specific and practical suggestions for moving toward a more peaceful world.
If you have a favorite book on pacifism to add, email me at foxvog@plowcreek.org
topSelected Web Resources
Don Murphy: Can a Christian Be a Pacifist?
Writings on Christian Nonresistance and Pacifism from Anabaptist Mennonite Sources
A Practical Christian Pacifism
The Conflict of Ages A Treatise on the Dichotomy between Military Service and the Kingdom of God
The New Testament Promotes the Absolute Love of Enemies
Advice on peacemaking from the Saints - Quotations of early Christians on Eastern Orthodox site
In Defense of the Gospel of Peace: An Evangelical Antiwar View
Christian Pacifism Blog - a variety of resources including quotes, blogs, news, and scriptural analysisOrthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Thanks, MJ! and Peace! It will take me quite some time to work my way through a study of these very appropriate passages! *smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Milford, I was just illustrating Goerge's point. I suppose Jesus's actual real-world behavioral example does not apply to the OP's question.
But we should recognize that some early manuscripts included reference to a mysterious 'young horse' along with 1-2 swords. Later copyists likely dropped it due to the mystery. But not here in Arizona!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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This thread makes me wonder how Jesus would have Christians respond (if at all) to the use of chemical weapons in Syria. (One of my doctors is from Damascus.)
All I can do is pray for the people of Syria.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Peace, John! Wow! Thanks for mentioning the LBD! *smile* I really haven't familiarised myself with it yet; but will begin to "tackle it"! That is a great "article" in what appears to be a truly great resource. I have so many "riches" that sometimes I don't even know where to start studying!John Goodman said:but more seriously you can't really do ethics like that... see New Testament Ethics in Lexham Bible Dictionary.
I'm very grateful for your sharing!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Sorry did I come across harshly? It was not my intention but just to be brief. Appologies... The lexham bible dictionary is amazing given it has been free at times and is continually updated.
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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This logos resource may be worth looking into: https://www.logos.com/product/739/ethics-for-a-brave-new-world
http://hombrereformado.blogspot.com/ Solo a Dios la Gloria Apoyo
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John Goodman said:
Sorry did I come across harshly? It was not my intention but just to be brief. Appologies... The lexham bible dictionary is amazing given it has been free at times and is continually updated.
Blessings, John! *smile* These forums are a very strange medium of expression, eh?? No to your question! *smile*
You did not come across harshly -- NOT in the slightest! The LBD is truly amazing, methinks also! (Your being concerned, John, seems to me to indicate that God has given you a good heart!)
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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I know that this is not a scripture reference, but you may also want to read through Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologia, ii-ii, 64, 7
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Tom Rach said:
This logos resource may be worth looking into: https://www.logos.com/product/739/ethics-for-a-brave-new-world
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Gary Staats, Biblical Non-Resistance from the Historic Anabaptist Perspective - examines all the key passages defending Christian Pacifism and also the passages that are used in rebuttal against it. Comes down on the side of pacifism, Very enlightening.
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Distinctions matter...
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For pro-war/self-defensive views do a search on "just war" on all your Logos resources or on the web.
Biblical References
Old Testament
In early Old Testament times war was often seen as a holy war, a conflict initiated and led by God. Such a war was declared by God, Himself (Exodus 17:16; Numbers 31:1-3, 1 Samuel 15:1-3), and every facet of war had religious significance. Sacrificial rites were performed to ensure God's continued support (1 Samuel 7:8-10; 13:9). The sacred ark of the covenant, symbolizing the presence of God, was often taken into battle (1 Samuel 4:3).
Later in Israel's history, the prophets began to see the terror of war as God's judgment against his people for their sins, and the glory of war faded (Habakkuk 1:5-11, Jeremiah 21:3-7). Israel began to look to the day when the endless cycle of war would be broken:
The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. (NIV, Isaiah 2:3-4)
New Testament
In the New Testament, war is universally seen as evil and Jesus emphasized peace instead. He advised us to avoid retaliation and revenge and to extend our love even to our enemies.
"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. (NIV, Matthew 5:38-45)
The apostle Paul and other New testament writers echoed Jesus' sentiment and expanded on it.
Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. "But if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. (NAS, Romans 12:17-21)
Despite the immense evil of war, Jesus said it is inevitable that wars will continue until He returns (Mark 13:7-8), and He did not oppose earthly governments or their right to maintain armies (Matthew 8:5-10). Other New Testament passages accept the necessity of maintaining armies and the worthiness of military occupations (Luke 3:14, Acts 10:1-6)
Just War Theory
Clearly, the Christian ideal is total elimination of war and brotherly love among all people. However, in this imperfect world, war may be forced on those who do not desire it. Christian theologians St. Augustine of Hippo (354 - 430) and St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) are primarily responsible for formulating the theory of the Just War which has remained the majority Christian approach to war to this day. There are many variations on the just war theory, but these are the basics:
- There must be a just cause for the war.
- War must be waged only in response to certain, grave and lasting damage inflicted by an aggressor.
- The motive for war must be advancement of good or avoidance of evil.
- The ultimate objective of war must be to bring peace.
- Revenge, revolt, a desire to harm, dominate, or exploit and similar things are not justification for war.
- Every possible means of peacefully settling the conflict must be exhausted first.
- There must be serious prospects of success; bloodshed without hope of victory cannot be justified.
- The war must be declared by a legitimate authority. Private individuals or groups should seek redress of their rights through their governments, not by acts of war.
- The war must not cause greater evil than the evil to be eliminated.
- Non-combatants (civilians) must not be intentionally harmed.
- Prisoners and conquered peoples must be treated justly.
Christian Pacifism
Pacifism, the opposition to all war, is a minority view throughout Christianity, but is the dominant belief in some denominations such as Mennonite and Society of Friends (Quakers). Pacifists take their example from Jesus who never resisted His persecutors. When the mob came to arrest Jesus, one of His followers tried to defend Him with a sword. But Jesus said,
"Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword." (NAS, Matthew 26:52-53)
Many of Jesus' apostles and other followers were also martyred for their faith, but never used violence to resist their fate.
Another justification for pacifism is the belief that the kingdom of God is set apart from the world (Matthew 5:20, 7:13-14, John 18:36). The world will continue in sin of all kinds, including war (Matthew 24:6-7, Mark 13:7-8), but those who truly belong to the kingdom of God are called to put their total trust in God (Matthew 10:28, John 14:1) and to obey all of Jesus' teachings (Matthew 7:21, 28:18-20, Luke 6:46, John 14:15, 15:10), including His teachings against violence.
A number of other Bible passages are cited in favor of the pacifist position, including Matthew 5:9, Romans 12:18-19, 2 Corinthians 10:3-4, 1 Peter 2:21-23, 3:8-11, 13-17, and Hebrews 10:32-34.
A frequent criticism of pacifism is that it amounts to surrender to aggression, and the evil which results could be much worse than the evil of a war. Another criticism is that pacifism is utopian, and pacifists unfairly reap the benefits of freedom earned by those willing to sacrifice their lives in war. However, pacifists reply that pacifism does not mean being passive; it is active peacemaking through nonviolent means. They point to the success of nonviolent resistance movements such as the Swedish and Danish resistance to Nazism in World War II, Gandhi's independence movement in India, the civil rights movement of Martin Luther King in the United States, and the Solidarity labor movement in Poland. Many Christian pacifists see nonviolence as the only way to alleviate the vicious cycles of oppression, hatred, war and revenge that have dominated human history.
Church Positions on War
Here are the official positions on war of the three largest Christian denominations in the United States:
Roman Catholic
2307. The fifth commandment forbids the intentional destruction of human life. Because of the evils and injustices that accompany all war, the Church insistently urges everyone to prayer and to action so that the divine Goodness may free us from the ancient bondage of war.
2308. All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war. However, "as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed.
2309. The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
there must be serious prospects of success;
the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine.
The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.
2310. Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense. Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace.
2311. Public authorities should make equitable provision for those who for reasons of conscience refuse to bear arms; these are nonetheless obliged to serve the human community in some other way.
2312. The Church and human reason both assert the permanent validity of the moral law during armed conflict. "The mere fact that war has regrettably broken out does not mean that everything becomes licit between the warring parties."
2313. Non-combatants, wounded soldiers, and prisoners must be respected and treated humanely. Actions deliberately contrary to the law of nations and to its universal principles are crimes, as are the orders that command such actions. Blind obedience does not suffice to excuse those who carry them out. Thus the extermination of a people, nation, or ethnic minority must be condemned as a mortal sin. One is morally bound to resist orders that command genocide.
2314. "Every act of war directed to the indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants is a crime against God and man, which merits firm and unequivocal condemnation." A danger of modern warfare is that it provides the opportunity to those who possess modern scientific weapons - especially atomic, biological, or chemical weapons - to commit such crimes.
2315. The accumulation of arms strikes many as a paradoxically suitable way of deterring potential adversaries from war. They see it as the most effective means of ensuring peace among nations. This method of deterrence gives rise to strong moral reservations. The arms race does not ensure peace. Far from eliminating the causes of war, it risks aggravating them. Spending enormous sums to produce ever new types of weapons impedes efforts to aid needy populations; it thwarts the development of peoples. Over-armament multiplies reasons for conflict and increases the danger of escalation.
2316. The production and the sale of arms affect the common good of nations and of the international community. Hence public authorities have the right and duty to regulate them. The short-term pursuit of private or collective interests cannot legitimate undertakings that promote violence and conflict among nations and compromise the international juridical order.
2317. Injustice, excessive economic or social inequalities, envy, distrust, and pride raging among men and nations constantly threaten peace and cause wars. Everything done to overcome these disorders contributes to building up peace and avoiding war:
From Catechism of the Catholic Church, second edition, copyright © 1997, United States Catholic Conference, Inc., http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art5.htmSouthern Baptist
XVI. Peace and War. It is the duty of Christians to seek peace with all men on principles of righteousness. In accordance with the spirit and teachings of Christ they should do all in their power to put an end to war.
The true remedy for the war spirit is the gospel of our Lord. The supreme need of the world is the acceptance of His teachings in all the affairs of men and nations, and the practical application of His law of love. Christian people throughout the world should pray for the reign of the Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 2:4; Matthew 5:9,38-48; 6:33; 26:52; Luke 22:36,38; Romans 12:18-19; 13:1-7; 14:19; Hebrews 12:14; James 4:1-2. Adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention June 14, 2000. From http://www.sbc.net/2000_comparative_report.html
United Methodist
War and Peace
We believe war is incompatible with the teachings and example of Christ. We therefore reject war as a usual instrument of national foreign policy and insist that the first moral duty of all nations is to resolve by peaceful means every dispute that arises between or among them; that human values must outweigh military claims as governments determine their priorities; that the militarization of society must be challenged and stopped; that the manufacture, sale, and deployment of armaments must be reduced and controlled; and that the production, possession, or use of nuclear weapons be condemned. Consequently, we endorse general and complete disarmament under strict and effective international control.
From The Book of Discipline of The United Methodist Church--2000, ¶165C. Copyright 2000 by The United Methodist Publishing House, http://www.umc.org/abouttheumc/policy/world/c-warpeace.htmMilitary Service
We deplore war and urge the peaceful settlement of all disputes among nations. From the beginning, the Christian conscience has struggled with the harsh realities of violence and war, for these evils clearly frustrate God's loving purposes for humankind. We yearn for the day when there will be no more war and people will live together in peace and justice. Some of us believe that war, and other acts of violence, are never acceptable to Christians. We also acknowledge that most Christians regretfully realize that, when peaceful alternatives have failed, the force of arms may be preferable to unchecked aggression, tyranny and genocide. We honor the witness of pacifists who will not allow us to become complacent about war and violence. We also respect those who support the use of force, but only in extreme situations and only when the need is clear beyond reasonable doubt, and through appropriate international organizations. We urge the establishment of the rule of law in international affairs as a means of elimination of war, violence, and coercion in these affairs.
We reject national policies of enforced military service as incompatible with the gospel. We acknowledge the agonizing tension created by the demand for military service by national governments. We urge all young adults to seek the counsel of the Church as they reach a conscientious decision concerning the nature of their responsibility as citizens. Pastors are called upon to be available for counseling with all young adults who face conscription, including those who conscientiously refuse to cooperate with a system of conscription.
We support and extend the ministry of the Church to those persons who conscientiously oppose all war, or any particular war, and who therefore refuse to serve in the armed forces or to cooperate with systems of military conscription. We also support and extend the Church's ministry to those persons who conscientiously choose to serve in the armed forces or to accept alternative service.
From The Book of Discipline of The United Methodist Church--2000, ¶164G. Copyright 2000 by The United Methodist Publishing House, http://www.umc.org/abouttheumc/policy/political/g-military.htmOrthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 - There must be a just cause for the war.
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@all - Thanks for all the responses... Each one is a gem in helping me to reach on a personal conclusive position as to the Christian Pacifism / Just War issue which is currently a hot topic for debate in our denomination. We are on the brink of accepting or rejecting a resolution that is asking for a change on our denomination's official position as to the Christian Pacifism vs. Just War issue.
Thanks again and blessings to all. [Y]0 -
There's a passage in Luke where Jesus commands his disciples to bring swords (the logic is that there is no reason Jesus would want his disciples to have a sword if they were not ok to defend themselves with it - why else would they have it?) i forget what the verse is. There's also an instance in John (I think) where soldiers come and ask John the Baptist how to be saved, and he says nothing of their violent occupation of soldiering.
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“He said to them, “But now, the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one.” (Luke 22:36, NRSV)Liam Walsh said:There's a passage in Luke where Jesus commands his disciples to bring swords (the logic is that there is no reason Jesus would want his disciples to have a sword if they were not ok to defend themselves with it - why else would they have it?) i forget what the verse is. There's also an instance in John (I think) where soldiers come and ask John the Baptist how to be saved, and he says nothing of their violent occupation of soldiering.
Of course, although a cigar is sometimes only a cigar, a sword is not always a sword.
“Take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.” (Ephesians 6:17, NRSV)george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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This is a big, difficult subject. YHWH commanded war in many places...yet when David numbered Israel (a precursor to war), YHWH disapproved so strongly He wiped out 70,000 Israelites. If you think the command to hate your enemies (who should be none other than YHWH's enemies) is done away in favor of "love your enemies", your err. Both are expected. The first act of those who are changed at the twinkling of an eye will be to join Yeishuu`a in the wholesale massacre of His enemies, a la Exo. 32:27, 28. While vengeance is YHWH's, He has commanded that the "avenger of blood" render the recompense of His justice. The problem with the pat answers of "just war" or "Christian pacifism" is that they often misapply the Scriptures they call upon, an extremely common failing. One of the big problems is assuming a verse means the same thing to YHWH that it means to the one rendering an interpretation to fit an agenda. Most often, it does not.
And don't forget... Exo. 15:3.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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David Paul said:
The problem with the pat answers of "just war" or "Christian pacifism"
Luckily what I have read of both options mentioned has rarely been pat. There are, of course, additional options ....
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I believe Christians should not defend themselves. They have to leave it for God, the only way they should defend themselves according to my understanding is in the language of "1 Corinthians 9" the purpose of defending themselves should be for the sake of the Truth of God not to be an object of offense by those who deliberately want to misuse and discredit the ministry which God entrusts to his servants.
Blessings in Christ.
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george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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I am assuming that the context of these verses is that while Jesus was ready to die as part of God's grand plan of Salvation, he also deemed it necessary for his disciples to defend themselves as their time has not yet come?George Somsel said:
“He said to them, “But now, the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one.” (Luke 22:36, NRSV)Liam Walsh said:There's a passage in Luke where Jesus commands his disciples to bring swords (the logic is that there is no reason Jesus would want his disciples to have a sword if they were not ok to defend themselves with it - why else would they have it?) i forget what the verse is. There's also an instance in John (I think) where soldiers come and ask John the Baptist how to be saved, and he says nothing of their violent occupation of soldiering.
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I can see both sides of this issue of pacifism. Certainly Jesus' Sermon on the Mount and many other Scriptures call us to nonviolence whenever possible in our personal interaction with others. We are to return good for evil. <\P>
However, I remember a conversation that I had with the great Quaker theologian, Elton Trueblood several decades ago. It was at the height of the nuclear disarmament movement, and the bishops of my own church called for the United States to unilaterally disarm. I thought that was foolish, and asked Dr. Trueblood what he thought about it. I assumed that as a Quaker, he would be in favor of pacifism and disarmament. <\P>
Dr. Trueblood replied that in the face of an enemy that is "determined to conquer you, to disarm would not be peacemaking. It would be war making. It would not prevent violence, but promote it. And Jesus called us to be peacemakers." To my surprise, Dr. Trueblood opposed unilateral disarmament.<\P>
As to your question about a Scripture passage, I think the fact that Jesus told his disciples to arm themselves on the night he was betrayed might imply the right to self-defense. "Prove" would be too strong a word.. (Luke 22:36-38) I think Jesus was concerned about the Disciples' safety on that dangerous night, and he wanted them to be able to protect themselves. But he said two swords were enough. In other words, don't overdo it. He wanted them just to be able to defend themselves. At least that is how I understand it. <\P>
God sometimes leads us to do things that conflict with common sense, but that is the exception rather than the rule. In an issue like this, I would just use common sense. I would also respect those who disagree with me. <\P>
Obviously, several others thought of the same passage. <\P>
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
I think the whole discussion presumes a well-oiled 'state' that can enforce 'law'. So 'the developed world' today. $$ matters.
But traipse on down to Jericho as a woman in the 1st century. Who's kidding who? You really think the apostles traveling with their wives, traveled unarmed? And how was the Ephesus Christian husband supposed to defend his wife with his life? Maybe like on Monty Pithon?
We always travel armed.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
We always travel armed.
I always travel armed (2 arms in fact) but never with weapons. I've not seen something that implied weapons were commonplace among the commonfolk. Any sources?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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More guns, less crime.Denise said:I think the whole discussion presumes a well-oiled 'state' that can enforce 'law'. So 'the developed world' today. $$ matters.
But traipse on down to Jericho as a woman in the 1st century. Who's kidding who? You really think the apostles traveling with their wives, traveled unarmed? And how was the Ephesus Christian husband supposed to defend his wife with his life? Maybe like on Monty Pithon?
We always travel armed.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Ethics for a Brave New World has a good chapter on the topic called "The Christian and War: Christian Faith in a Nuclear Age". It discusses various passages and applications. There are other helpful resources as well.
I served in an Anabaptist denomination and wrestled with this question. Basically it comes down to a few (but not minor) questions scripturally:
1) What is the scope of application of passages such as turning the other cheek? Is it absolute? Is it qualified by other passages? This kind of question should not start with a position in the debate but with trying to understand the passages within their own context in order to determine first of all what was the intended original application (this too can be debatable). Then we see how we can extrapolate it to current issues.
2) How do we relate the overwhelming trajectory of passages such as the ones MJ listed in her first post with examples of self-defense in the Scriptures and (for Anabaptists) usage of force by God Himself? I have found in the NT multiple instances of verbal and attitude of self-defense but none of physical self-defense (there is a possible allusion in the exhortation of the Lord to the disciples to take swords with them depending on how it is understood).
3) How we understand the giving of the sword to authorities by God in Romans 13 in relation to Christians. Can Christians be authorities too?
At the end of the day, practical and specific answers are needed to questions such as 1) Should Christians serve in forces such as the police or the army? 2) If we say it is wrong, should we call upon them when we are in need? Should we call the police when the neighbor's wife is being assaulted or just try to argue with the assaulter that it is wrong and there is a better way? 3) How should our kids respond to physical bullying in school and the neighborhood? 4) What about the rod of discipline spoken of in the Scriptures: is the use of "force" allowable in parental discipline? The convictions we reach must make sense of the overall Scriptural picture AND be consistent.
Pretty much everybody agree that violence is anti-Christian. The real question is whether there is a difference between violence and the usage of force and whether the latter is also in view in the passages that teach us to be peacemakers.0 -
Pinoy Preacher said:
I am assuming that the context of these verses is that while Jesus was ready to die as part of God's grand plan of Salvation, he also deemed it necessary for his disciples to defend themselves as their time has not yet come?George Somsel said:
“He said to them, “But now, the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one.” (Luke 22:36, NRSV)Liam Walsh said:There's a passage in Luke where Jesus commands his disciples to bring swords (the logic is that there is no reason Jesus would want his disciples to have a sword if they were not ok to defend themselves with it - why else would they have it?) i forget what the verse is. There's also an instance in John (I think) where soldiers come and ask John the Baptist how to be saved, and he says nothing of their violent occupation of soldiering.
I don't think I would assume that, especially since he rebukes them for using the swords they brought. Again (surprise, surprise), this is an issue of prophecy, not PRACTICAL CHRISTIANITY. Not to be flippant about it, but in a certain sense, very little of the Bible is about practical Christianity. That is slight hyperbole, but it speaks to a concept that needs to be comprehended. Yes, we are supposed to derive behavior instructions from Scripture, but mistakes are made when people overlook and ignore the ever-present prophetic intent that undergirds virtually every verse of Scripture.
Let's review: Yeishuu`a tells them to sell a cloak and buy one. But he doesn't tell them to EACH have a sword--when they say they have two swords already (and He already knew they had two...He's God), He says "It is enough." Two swords is not enough swords to defend over a dozen men. The point wasn't to defend themselves with the swords (see rebuke comment above) but to FULFILL PROPHECY. This really shouldn't surprise anyone...Yeishuu`a says clearly that is why he wants to be sure they have at least two swords (i.e. witnesses) to establish the connection to Isa. 53:12, that He was numbered with transgressors. In other words, possibly just having the swords, and certainly using one as Peter does, is "transgression". In other words, Him insisting that the disciples brings swords along wasn't for protection, it was to label the disciples as transgressors...it was a means of muddying and tarnishing them. In other words, IT WAS PROPHECY.
That said, does this mean that violence is "bad"? That is a slippery question. The answer is both "no" and "yes". Or as any good relativist would say, it depends. I'm running out of time for now, but YHWH can and does use violence whenever it suits His will and purpose, and He is far more effective at it than Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, Hilter, Pol Pot, or Stalin could ever hope to be. Blood running up to a horse's bridle is not grade school violence. But He does it to serve His purpose. The reason Yeishuu`a told us to turn the other cheek isn't because "violence is evil", as is generally assumed. It is because He came first as the Lamb led to the slaughter. When he comes the second time, it will be as the Lion of Judah, and He will leave carnage everywhere He goes...humans will be rarer than gold.
Point is, you can't just pick up a verse and assume it is a "devotional for daily living"--it almost never is. What it is, rather, is a prophetic principle that requires prophetic understanding to fully comprehend.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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For further study on this topic I would recommend the book What Would You Do? by John Howard Yoder. It is available as part of this collection:
https://www.logos.com/product/23960/john-howard-yoder-collection
And, while you're at it, pre-order https://www.logos.com/product/35481/select-works-of-john-howard-yoder
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It is all fine and dandy for us to all turn the other cheek. But can we turn someone else's cheek for them? If a police officer (charged by God to enforce the law) decides to allow you to be assaulted in his presence would he be following the will of God? I think not.
So while I may respond peacefully to one who does violence to me, I may have a different response to one who does violence to others.
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Seems like its theological debate now...
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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Wild Eagle said:
Seems like its theological debate now...
Let me ask this question (to the chagrin of George Somsel);
Are there any scriptural references that define what an "unjust war" is? I have not found the term in my Bible.
EDIT: All of the Bible references given are directed to our personal/individual responses to others who harm us. I see a big difference between how a Christian is to respond and how a government is to respond.
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Super.Tramp said:
It is all fine and dandy for us to all turn the other cheek. But can we turn someone else's cheek for them? If a police officer (charged by God to enforce the law) decides to allow you to be assaulted in his presence would he be following the will of God? I think not.
So while I may respond peacefully to one who does violence to me, I may have a different response to one who does violence to others.
Actually, what you describe is essentially the "avenger of blood" scenario of Num. 35. I am still formulating my understanding of what the current expectation is, but the avenger of blood is still a viable expectation. If someone attacks me, I will turn the other cheek (or try to...I might react differently in the heat of the moment), but if someone attacks my family, I will fall upon the attacker without mercy. Mercy, in such a situation, is against the will of YHWH. This, AGAIN, is all prophetic. Yeishuu`a IS the avenger of blood, and He IS the city of refuge. He is BOTH justice and mercy, and both concepts are valid within the parameters that Scripture pictures. It isn't that justice trumps mercy, nor that mercy trumps justice. The Bible says clearly that there are a variety of situations in which mercy is outlawed and unacceptable...period. It also describes situations where mercy triumphs over justice, but that IS NOT an across the board fact of post-cross existence. It is situational. This is a rather poorly understood concept.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Tes said:
I believe Christians should not defend themselves. They have to leave it for God, the only way they should defend themselves according to my understanding is in the language of "1 Corinthians 9" the purpose of defending themselves should be for the sake of the Truth of God not to be an object of offense by those who deliberately want to misuse and discredit the ministry which God entrusts to his servants.
What would you do if someone broke into your house and was about to (possibly fatally) harm you and your family? Assuming you had the ability and opportunity to defend yourself and protect your family, would you? Or would you just "leave it for God"?
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well i'll chime in here. if someone broke into my home, with my family sleeping or awake and wanted to do harm to me and/or them and i was the first line of defense before they/him/her were going to hurt my family then there is not way in h##! that i would let them get past me to get to them. if i had to kill them, so be it and i'll take my chances with the Lord. if i could disarm/subdue them, then i would, but if i had no other recall then to kill them so be it.
mm.
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Milkman said:
well i'll chime in here. if someone broke into my home, with my family sleeping or awake and wanted to do harm to me and/or them and i was the first line of defense before they/him/her were going to hurt my family then there is not way in h##! that i would let them get past me to get to them. if i had to kill them, so be it and i'll take my chances with the Lord. if i could disarm/subdue them, then i would, but if i had no other recall then to kill them so be it.
mm.
[Y]
I own a .45 Smith & Wesson M&P. If someone broke into my house, they'd be staring down the barrel of this gun. If they started to come at me, I wouldn't hesitate to open fire.
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Josh? i'm not sure why ppl get so upset/disturbed about this issue. it really is a no brainer. as men we keep our family safe and protected. not a hard choice.
mm.
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Milkman said:
Josh? i'm not sure why ppl get so upset/disturbed about this issue. it really is a no brainer. as men we keep our family safe and protected. not a hard choice.
mm.
I do not think many are upset with defending their wife and kids. Are they? Several in my family have concealed carry or open carry permits. Is it just a cultural thing? I don't know.
I doubt I would inflict violence over a property crime but I will defend my family. My wife was a victim of ID theft yesterday and they cleaned out her account. I will not post what she feels is justice. [:#][:O][:@]
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Wild Eagle said:
Seems like its theological debate now...
I agree - it's gone outside the forum bounds after I was becoming proud that the forums were having a civil exchange that was helpful to the OP. At least one poster even admitted to turned-off brains - a sure sign of deterioration.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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super tramp. sorry to hear about your wife - will her/your bank see to it that she will not lose her $? hopefully there is insurance to cover the loss. in the States you can carry a concealed weapon or open - correct? in Canada there are no such laws.
i'd love to hear what she feels is justice. probably not taking out the .45 but maybe something with a bat? anyway, it's too bad so many are timid to reply to any further posts regarding defending their family.
mm.
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Josh said:Tes said:
I believe Christians should not defend themselves. They have to leave it for God, the only way they should defend themselves according to my understanding is in the language of "1 Corinthians 9" the purpose of defending themselves should be for the sake of the Truth of God not to be an object of offense by those who deliberately want to misuse and discredit the ministry which God entrusts to his servants.
What would you do if someone broke into your house and was about to (possibly fatally) harm you and your family? Assuming you had the ability and opportunity to defend yourself and protect your family, would you? Or would you just "leave it for God"?
Hi Josh, I think there is misunderstanding. What I want to say is concerning ministry, if a pastor or any minster of God is being attacked by members of his congregation or by any one out of selfish motive. If he or she is acting according to the Word of God, my understanding is he or she doesn't have to respond physically since the war is spiritual. The defense should be for the sake of the truth of God not for his or her reputation.
Blessings in Christ.
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I think we'd be better off if we could get this thread back to its original purpose! Peace to all! The only reason I'm writing is to point out that Milkman in his post neglected to mention that it's almost impossible for anyone to purchase or to own a legal handgun in Canada. It just doesn't happen ........... maybe the very odd exemption if one were to belong to a gun club; however, the transportation of such firearm would be extremely difficult and under heavy control ... I'm sorry I'm sticking my nose into this thread; however, the reputation of my country in this matter is very important to me, eh? *smile*Milkman said:super tramp. sorry to hear about your wife - will her/your bank see to it that she will not lose her $? hopefully there is insurance to cover the loss. in the States you can carry a concealed weapon or open - correct? in Canada there are no such laws.
i'd love to hear what she feels is justice. probably not taking out the .45 but maybe something with a bat? anyway, it's too bad so many are timid to reply to any further posts regarding defending their family.
mm.
I'm not quite sure what he means when he says "... in Canada there are no such laws.... " Milkman, perhaps you might clarify if you so desire!
Blessings to all!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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It is hard to claim that you "love your enemy" when you are shooting at that person.
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