How to find a Greek word in the LXX
Let's suppose I have a word up from the NT and then let's suppose Vines / BDAG shows where that word is used in the LXX.
Sometimes, it is difficult to see exactly which word is intended, so my question is - is there a way to get the exact Gk word that is used in the LXX.
Let me illustrate to try and make myself clear. I have the word "wronged" used in Philemon 18. BDAG says that Gk word is used in Isaiah 9:8. How do I know exactly which word it is that is used in Isaiah other than guessing? Hopefully my question is clear as transparent mud. :-}
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I use the LXX lexicon which lists the usages. I have it linked to BDAG. But Isa 9.8??
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Bootjack said:
Let me illustrate to try and make myself clear. I have the word "wronged" used in Philemon 18. BDAG says that Gk word is used in Isaiah 9:8. How do I know exactly which word it is that is used in Isaiah other than guessing?
There may be a more elegant way to do this, but here's what I do:
From the Reverse Interlinear right-click on "wronged" choose the lemma (ἀδικέω) on the right-side of the right-click menu, and then choose Bible Word Study (BWS) on the left. Now scroll to the bottom of the BWS and under "Textual Searches" choose "LXX."
The results are all in Greek of course. If your Greek isn't that great (like mine), choose "Add Versions" at the top left of the results pane. I suggest using a the Lexham English Septuagint (LES), if you have it, since it is a translation of the LXX (not the BHS). If you don't have the LES, then choose a version like the NRSV, which includes the Apocrypha. Whichever one you might choose, enter it in the input box and then click the arrow to create a second, parallel column to give you a virtual diglot for the verses in the LXX that include your target Greek word.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Bootjack said:
Let's suppose I have a word up from the NT and then let's suppose Vines / BDAG shows where that word is used in the LXX.
Sometimes, it is difficult to see exactly which word is intended, so my question is - is there a way to get the exact Gk word that is used in the LXX.
Let me illustrate to try and make myself clear. I have the word "wronged" used in Philemon 18. BDAG says that Gk word is used in Isaiah 9:8. How do I know exactly which word it is that is used in Isaiah other than guessing? Hopefully my question is clear as transparent mud. :-}
The word "wronged" is a translation of ἀδικέω, but I find no listing of the Isaiah passage under αδικεω. Here is a morph search for ἁδικέω in the LXX
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Denise, I'm also now looking for Is 9:8. Apparently one of those glorious Senior's moments. Just great!!!
Richard, I'm beaddled as to where Choose Versions is at the top of the left pane. I'm not seeing anywhere that I can find that. Can you please clarify ...
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Here's a screenshot of where I am right now - this is why I'm not able to see where the "add versions" might be ...
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And I would need the English rendering of that word in the LXX ... sorry George, I cannot read Greek.
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Richard, I have the LES but since it is does not have Strongs numbers with it, it still leaves me wondering as to what word is actually which. Is there something that I'm not seeing in addition to the others that I am not seeing ???
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Bootjack said:
And I would need the English rendering of that word in the LXX ... sorry George, I cannot read Greek.
This is a screenshot of Lust A Greek Lexicon of the Septuagint. In the upper right corner it list the number of occurrences of the word in various sections of the LXX which is not of concern to you. The "A" listings are active while the "P" listings are passive. Here is the section of interest to you
"A to be unjust, to do wrong, to act unjustly 1 Kgs 8,47; to wrong, to injure [
τινα] Gn 21,23; to wrong sb in sth [τινά τι] Prv 24,29; to sin against [ἔν τινι] (semit., rendering Hebr.-מעל ב) 2 Chr 26,16"
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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This is exactly what I'm after George. My next question is - let's say I'm still looking at the word "wronged" here in Philemon and I see that this Gk word is used in Jer 37:18 according to the Complete Word Study Dictionary. How can I have it automatically bring up that word to the location you have shown me? I've tried "send hyperlinks here" but that's doing nothing. I'll appreciate your furthered help. Thanks!
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Bootjack said:
This is exactly what I'm after George. My next question is - let's say I'm still looking at the word "wronged" here in Philemon and I see that this Gk word is used in Jer 37:18 according to the Complete Word Study Dictionary. How can I have it automatically bring up that word to the location you have shown me? I've tried "send hyperlinks here" but that's doing nothing. I'll appreciate your furthered help. Thanks!
I don't know where you're getting your information, but it seems to be completely in error. There is no appearance of the word "to wrong" (ἀδικέω) in Jer 37.18.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Look up the word "wronged" in Philemon 18 - click on the strongs number 91 - have it open the Complete Word Study Dictionary - under number 1, you'll see a list of references where this Gk word is used in the LXX ... i.e. 1Kings 8:47 / 2Chron 26:16 / Ps 106.6 / Jer 37:18.
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And maybe I jumped the gun in saying "this is exactly what I want" ... maybe it isn't. Sometimes, one will be given the passage where a NT Greek word is used in the LXX, but when one looks that up, one is left wondering *sometimes* as to which word it actually is. Is what I am saying / asking making sense?
Is there something within Logos that would bring up the LXX with the Strongs numbers used the same way it is in the OT / NT?
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Bootjack, what you're trying to do makes perfect sense; that's what I do mainly because in the first century, that's what they'd do.
The problem is trying to use Strongs; Logos isn't Strongs happy. My OliveTree LXX uses the Strongs embedded in both the NT and LXX which would make your world easier to track.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I don't seem to have the Complete Word Study Dictionary or, perhaps, I hid it. I would advise you to hide it as well. Any resource which rather consistently gives inaccurate results is not worthy of consideration. Do you have a LXX? if so, you might try copying the lemma αδικεω which appears on right-click and select "Morph Search" without all the silly letters after it. This will give you the appearances in the NRSV (?) where it is translated. Change the resource to "Septuagint with Logos Morphology" and you will get all of the appearances in the LXX.Bootjack said:Look up the word "wronged" in Philemon 18 - click on the strongs number 91 - have it open the Complete Word Study Dictionary - under number 1, you'll see a list of references where this Gk word is used in the LXX ... i.e. 1Kings 8:47 / 2Chron 26:16 / Ps 106.6 / Jer 37:18.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Now George, you don't have to resort to lies about the Complete Word Study Dictionary!!??!
As to your further instructions, you're totally confusing me. Maybe you or someone else could clarify - or is there a specific video with this regards.
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Bootjack said:
Now George, you don't have to resort to lies about the Complete Word Study Dictionary!!??!
As to your further instructions, you're totally confusing me. Maybe you or someone else could clarify - or is there a specific video with this regards.
Just the facts, sir. If you enjoy being wrong then continue to use that POS.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George, do you think you're able to clarify as to what you were trying to help me with regarding the LXX? Denise, I notice you say that Logos isn't Strong's happy - am I to take it then, there is no LXX that has Strong's numbers in it? If so, what I'm looking for, isn't going to be there, correct?
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George Somsel said:
Just the facts, sir. If you enjoy being wrong then continue to use that POS.
For all you children in the audience, POS = "Pearl of Septuagintism"
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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I know of only 1 LXX that has Strongs numbers: Septuagint with Logos Morphology. Unfortunately they were careful to include hebrew with the greek, but not english. I think George paid them a tidy sum, though it looks very interlinear-ish.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Bootjack said:
Let's suppose I have a word up from the NT and then let's suppose Vines / BDAG shows where that word is used in the LXX.
Sometimes, it is difficult to see exactly which word is intended, so my question is - is there a way to get the exact Gk word that is used in the LXX.
Let me illustrate to try and make myself clear. I have the word "wronged" used in Philemon 18. BDAG says that Gk word is used in Isaiah 9:8. How do I know exactly which word it is that is used in Isaiah other than guessing? Hopefully my question is clear as transparent mud. :-}
Peace and Every Blessing, Bootjack! I think maybe you got off track somehow right at the beginning???? I most certainly cannot find where BDAG says that Gk word is used in Isaiah 9:8 ......
Is it possible that somehow you made a mistake??? *smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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this may be helpful:Bootjack said:Sometimes, it is difficult to see exactly which word is intended, so my question is - is there a way to get the exact Gk word that is used in the LXX.
this first screenshot gives you NT usage
this screenshot of the second half of search results
hope this helps.
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Denise, thanks for your reply, although your last statement is confusing when you say "I think George paid them a tidy sum, though it looks very interlinear-ish" ... maybe you can clarify.
Milford, you have to go back and read my earlier posting - I had mentioned that I gave a wrong reference. This really isn't the issue - the issue is that I am or was looking for a LXX with strongs numbers, of which I'm beginning to learn there is no such thing - or at least at this point I don't think there is.
Anon, thank you for this. Let me study it and see if I can make this work for me. Much appreciated!!! :-)
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Bootjack said:
I notice you say that Logos isn't Strong's happy - am I to take it then, there is no LXX that has Strong's numbers in it?
Logos LXX has Strong's (H9999) where the original text is Hebrew, so it won't help you find a Greek Strong's word (G9999)**! You have to use the Greek lemma or Greek manuscript.
** the LXX doesn't use biblical Greek upon which Strong's is based.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave ... good catch.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Thank you Dave for the info. I'm not sure if I understand everything yet but when I get a bit of time, I'll go over what Anon has posted and what you have just stated.
I think I can say, there is much in Logos that I do not come close to understanding. Super program though.
I'm still waiting for clarification as to what "I think George paid a tidy sum" means -
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Bootjack said:
I'm still waiting for clarification as to what "I think George paid a tidy sum" means -
It means the Bellingham police are still trying to determine what happened to the new LXX translator that was hired by Logos to provide the English translation for the Lexham LXX that Denise mentioned. His whereabouts are a complete mystery after he vanished on his way to work one morning...
[:S]
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Bootjack said:
Thank you Dave for the info. I'm not sure if I understand everything yet but when I get a bit of time, I'll go over what Anon has posted and what you have just stated.
I think I can say, there is much in Logos that I do not come close to understanding. Super program though.
I'm still waiting for clarification as to what "I think George paid a tidy sum" means -
Denise is making a joke about my dislike of interlinears and implying that I paid them to not make the LXX into an interlinear. I'm sure she wasn't serious about that.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Good - thanks for the clarification. :-}
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BTW: I'm serious about not using that resource. 2 errors in 2 tries? I feel confident that you didn't find the only 2 errors in it.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Maybe you could point out where the two errors are and what they are -
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Bootjack ... that was a joke. George thinks people should learn greek/hebrew if they propose to get valid conclusions from the study.
But David's joke above sounds similar to Mot in the Ugarit writings. Taking captives captive.
More seriously, biting the bullet and using the greek lemmas as shown above isn't that hard. I'm pretty much used to doing that in Japanese and Navajo, both of which far more complex. Slow going but fun.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Bootjack said:
Maybe you could point out where the two errors are and what they are -
You pointed to 2 passages which were supposed to contain your word—only they didn't.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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I think I gave the following list which are as follows -
1Kings 8:47 / 2Chron 26:16 / Ps 106:6 / Jer 37:18.
If this is the list you are drawing from, maybe you could point out the two that are supposedly erroneous. Thanks.
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Thank you for your reply Denise. :-}
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Anon, maybe you could here or in another thread, explain how you got your panes up there in your screenshot the way you did. On the left pane, I see for instance, you have under your two "searches" a block that is called Graph results / Make filter etc.
I would be most interested in how you do that - thanks!
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Bootjack said:
I think I gave the following list which are as follows -
1Kings 8:47 / 2Chron 26:16 / Ps 106:6 / Jer 37:18.
If this is the list you are drawing from, maybe you could point out the two that are supposedly erroneous. Thanks.
No, the two passages were Is 9.8 and Jer 37.18.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Isaiah 9:8 was my mistake - Jer 37:18 was not. So we're narrowing down to supposedly one mistake now.
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Bootjack said:
On the left pane, I see for instance, you have under your two "searches" a block that is called Graph results / Make filter etc.
"graph results" and "make filter" occur in "Bible" and "Morph" searches. see below:
I believe "graph results" shows by itself when performing a "basic" search; while "make filter" shows up by itself when performing either a "morph" or "syntax" search.
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I noticed that just after I posted it. Maybe though, you at some point, when you find the time, could explain how you get those three panes up there the way you did. I'd appreciate it. Thanks!
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let's see… open bible, right click on a word (in this case "wronged"), click on "Bible Word Study"; so now I have one pane left and one on the right side. Next step open search panel, now I have two panes on one side and only one on the opposite side; click on one resource pane from the side that has two and drag this one pane in between the left and right resource panes. Now I have three equal sized resource panes.Bootjack said:I noticed that just after I posted it. Maybe though, you at some point, when you find the time, could explain how you get those three panes up there the way you did. I'd appreciate it. Thanks!
Another way is to open your Bible, search, and BWS; then under layouts click on the template.
hope that helps
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Bootjack said:
Isaiah 9:8 was my mistake - Jer 37:18 was not. So we're narrowing down to supposedly one mistake now.
The LXX follows a different chapter verse order in parts of Jeremiah. If you sync your LXX with an English Bible, open the English Bible to Jer.37:18, you'll find the LXX parallel in LXX Jer. 44:18, where you can find "ἠδίκησά".
This is one of the problems one deals with when doing studies in the LXX. When a citation is made to it, we need to know whether the citation follows the LXX order of content, or the "standard" order.
By the way, I didn't check back after my initial post yesterday. Did you get your other questions answered?
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Dave Hooton said:
** the LXX doesn't use biblical Greek upon which Strong's is based.
Enigmatic observation. Wikipedia says: Jewish Koine Greek exists primarily as a category of literature, or cultural category, but apart from some distinctive religious vocabulary is not so distinct from other varieties of Koine Greek as to be counted a separate dialect.
However, to the original question, my post may be flawed due to ignorance and lack of formal training. Nevertheless, I will offer my approach if for none else it may lead to further discovery.
Using the OP's text and word. I would right click and select lemma. My next step would depend on if I were interested in the Septuagint entry or word study. Let's take the Septuagint approach first.
For preliminary practice I would select lemma then Search Entire Library NB a Basic Search, this would give the necessary syntax. Next I would select my Septuagint resources; in my case I have them grouped in a Collection. I would add this to the appropriate field. Then select Enter or the Go arrow. Now I have my answers displayed for review.
I also have further input that may be useful. After selecting lemma there are two resources that are very helpful to Prioritize Lust and DBL. DBL gives LN numbers and glosses; very useful.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.3.2 1TB SSD
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Ok, Anon, I'll get at your instructions in just a bit. I appreciate you pointing out what you have.
Also, Richard ... I think I've got my question answered but as you can see with the input, I've got a bit of learning to do yet to get where I want to be. One gets used to using Logos a certain way but realizes in a thread like this, just how much one can do that I haven't yet.
I'm going to address "beloved" ... I think I've got you correct. I again appreciate your instructions and again will get at this in just a bit.
Do permit me to come back though with questions should the need arise and I do think the need will arise! :-)
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Bootjack: I would definitely take a look at the following to help avoid the kinds of problems that arise with this kind of Strongs-based word studies:
I admit I'm in a similar position as George - this approach is highly problematic for a variety of reasons. Hopefully you'll get a chance to review the 16 common fallacies with a word study approach from Carson's book. I think once you do that and understand the Strong's focus on NT-only coverage, you'll try another approach.
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Richard DeRuiter said:
From the Reverse Interlinear right-click on "wronged" choose the lemma (ἀδικέω) on the right-side of the right-click menu, and then choose Bible Word Study (BWS) on the left. Now scroll to the bottom of the BWS and under "Textual Searches" choose "LXX."
[Y]
Richard's description above is the way I would do this. If you have the tools in Logos, the task of looking up identical Greek words in the LXX and GNT is efficient and accurate. [:)]
David
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this is an option; however, on Mac when using "textual searches" "lxx" you do not get the corresponding results in english text highlighted - which I believe the OP wanted to know (not only the different greek forms used, but also how these forms have then been translated).David Bailey said:Richard DeRuiter said:From the Reverse Interlinear right-click on "wronged" choose the lemma (ἀδικέω) on the right-side of the right-click menu, and then choose Bible Word Study (BWS) on the left. Now scroll to the bottom of the BWS and under "Textual Searches" choose "LXX."
Richard's description above is the way I would do this. If you have the tools in Logos, the task of looking up identical Greek words in the LXX and GNT is efficient and accurate.
David
perhaps this cross highlighting is available on PC? if so, seems to be a bug on the Mac side.
anyway, to demonstrate the above, here is a screenshot of the difference seen by how one runs the search.
hope this helps clarify the reasoning to have NA 28 and LXX as a serial resource to do this type of search, as well as, having cross highlighting available in both the NT and LXX.0 -
Beloved said:Dave Hooton said:
** the LXX doesn't use biblical Greek upon which Strong's is based.
Enigmatic observation.
Not precise! I meant that Strong's Greek number system was not designed for the LXX which has a broader vocabulary than the NT. And usage/meaning would change during the interval between the two writings!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Richard, you have said the following ... "The LXX follows a different chapter verse order in parts of Jeremiah. If you sync your LXX with an English Bible, open the English Bible to Jer.37:18, you'll find the LXX parallel in LXX Jer. 44:18, where you can find "ἠδίκησά"." (end quote)
Is this then why George was saying Jer 37:18 was a mistake in the Complete Word Study Dictionary?
Thanks for the pointer Mike regarding "Exegetical Fallacies" ...
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Bootjack said:
Richard, you have said the following ... "The LXX follows a different chapter verse order in parts of Jeremiah. If you sync your LXX with an English Bible, open the English Bible to Jer.37:18, you'll find the LXX parallel in LXX Jer. 44:18, where you can find "ἠδίκησά"." (end quote)
Is this then why George was saying Jer 37:18 was a mistake in the Complete Word Study Dictionary?
Thanks for the pointer Mike regarding "Exegetical Fallacies" ...
That is correct. When I reference the LXX, I would expect the citation to reflect the numbering of the LXX. When I reference the MT, I expect the versification to reflect the Mt (as you most likely know, the Psalms are numbered differently). I should never leave the reader searching for what I meant but failed to state.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Bootjack said:
Is this then why George was saying Jer 37:18 was a mistake in the Complete Word Study Dictionary
Yeah. But it's a perfectly understandable conclusion, as he explains in his post. I came to the same conclusion, until something dawned on me about the content order and chapter/verse problems in Jeremiah that I had encountered before.
It's confusing to those who want to look directly at the LXX, when an author cites a location in the LXX, but give the English Bible's canonical location for it. We might blame the author for this, but that's not warranted either. An explanation what the author is doing here is given in the introductory portion of the book, under "Explanation of General Format" where the author states "SEPTUAGINT citations occur frequently; however, all references are to English Bible references." This makes sense for a resource like this, which targets those who do not have the ability to look at the LXX directly, or don't have access to it. This doesn't mean the resources isn't scholarly, but it does mean the resource doesn't target scholars.
Let's just chalk this one up to the fact that the LXX differs dramatically in some places from our cannon, including the ordering of the content of some of the Biblical books in it. Those who want to use the LXX as a resource need to become familiar with these anomalies, and expect to find them along the way, as we did in this case. I'm still learning this too.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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