Prophacy fullfilled/law of probabilities/ proving scripture
I'm looking for some resources that prove the authenticity of scripture through fulfilled scripture.
The law of probabilities quantifies that, as I have read in other paper books.
Is there any Logos resources that deal with that subject. I may even have it, I've got over 1100 books, but can't find anything on it.
Thanks
Comments
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I've posted this perspective here on a few occasions, but I don't know of any Logos resources that corroborate or discuss it. By my calculations, which I deliberately reduce to 10% of the actual figures just to account for any miscalculation, the chances that Bible prophecy is "just chance" is 1-in-a-multiple-of-googols. In other words, a number that is essentially meaningless in this iteration of the "multi-verse". [:P] In other other words, the chance that prophecy is chance is 0.0%. If anyone does know of any Logos resources that discuss this, I'd like to know. I did find someone online who discussed this. He was only focused on a limited number of Messianic prophecies (a small fraction of all Biblical prophecy), and his figure was about 1x10-to-50, which is still an absurd number.
Just for the sake of consideration, if there is any chance of a googolplex actually referring to a real thing, prophecy is probably the most likely contender.
This is THE trump card of all trump cards. Prophecy trumps physics, it trumps chemistry, it trumps perceived reality. There is only One explanation for prophecy. For some, this might beg the question...why isn't this a more common focus of discussion? The reasons are multiple. First, there is the moving target of the Documentary Hypothesis, redactorese mumbo jumbo. It simply allows for sliding the composition date of Scripture in response to any perceived fulfillment of prophecy. As a staunch proponent of this theory, I have therefore concluded that the Bible hasn't be written yet. [I][:P] It won't actually be finished getting written for at least another 15-20 years minimum. The other main reason that prophecy is dismissed is that doubters and skeptics suggest that Yeishuu`a, aware of what the prophecies dictated, simply patterned his behavior to match the prophecies...thus resulting in literal self-fulfilling prophecy. That is absurd, of course, but it gets the job done. It was a pretty nifty trick for Yeishuu`a to get the Romans to crucify Him, the true Passover Lamb, precisely on the day of Passover. There are many other prophecies related to His first coming that are dismissed in like fashion.
The thing that will thoroughly debunk the debunkers is the revelation of a vast amount of prophecy in Scripture that was literally unrecognized by anyone right up until the initiation of the final hour. You can't claim that prophecies that were unseen and unrecognized were composed ex post facto. That is when the math will finally start doing the talking in a way that scientist and mathematician types can't ignore. It will literally be the day that YHWH is proved mathematically and the world admits the fact. That won't change much, though. Knowing God exists isn't the same as obedience.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Just make sure you're arguing with someone not familiar with statistics (not trying to offend but there's quite a bit of false logic under the heading 'statistics').
The probability of David writing his point is similarly improbable (doing the math on event probabilities, and combinations). But surprisingly he wrote it.
George could say David was improbable and therefore 0%. But David would point out he's 100%.
Point: every unique event has zero probability.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I had heard this statistic when I was much younger, but ran across recently while reading through a book with a new Christian. Unfortunately, Logos doesn't have any of these books, but Amazon does: 30 Days to Understanding the Bible, citing Evidence that Demands a Verdict, citing Science Speaks.
There are those who suggest that the prophecies that Jesus fulfilled were done so deliberately or by coincidence. However, the odds against that happening are so remote as to make it impossible. For example, Josh McDowell, in his book Evidence that Demands a Verdict, includes a convincing quote from Science Speaks by Peter Stoner:
The following probabilities are taken from Peter Stoner in Science Speaks to show that coincidence is ruled out by the science of probability. Stoner says that by using the modern science of probability in reference to eight prophecies . . . “we find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 10^17.” That would be 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. In order to help us comprehend this staggering probability, Stoner illustrates it by supposing that “we take 10^17 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They will cover all of the state two feet deep. Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick up one silver dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one? Just the same chance that the prophets would have had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man, from their day to the present time, providing they wrote them in their own wisdom. “This means these prophecies were either given by inspiration of God or the prophets just wrote them as they thought they should be. In such a case the prophets had just one chance in 10^17 of having them come true in any man, but they all came true in Christ.”
Anders, Max (1998-08-15). 30 Days to Understanding the Bible (Kindle Locations 2923-2924). Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.
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Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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David Paul said:
Just for the sake of consideration, if there is any chance of a googolplex actually referring to a real thing, prophecy is probably the most likely contender.
I just went through an exercise with my kids to help them understand the enormity of these numbers that we're talking about.
There aren't even a googol fundamental particles in the visible universe. If you multiply the number of galaxies by the number of stars by the number of atoms in a star by the number of protons and electrons in those atoms by the number of quarks in those particles...you still only get something in the 10^90 range. Which means you need something on the order of 10 billion universes to even get to a googol "things".
Take the number 10 and raise it to this power to get to a googolplex (10^googol), and the quantity simply becomes unfathomable. I can't imagine what a number looks like that has a 1 followed by a googol 0s.
And you're right, if you take the combination of prophesies throughout scriptures--even just the ones that couldn't purposefully be fulfilled (i.e. a precocious student of the Scriptures trying to be the ambitious "fulfiller"--a self-promoted-God-chosen prophet), then I believe you're into this stratospheric range of improbability.
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David Paul said:
I've posted this perspective here on a few occasions, but I don't know of any Logos resources that corroborate or discuss it.
Aren't you writing the book that's going to become the new gold standard on prophesy? Surely that will become a Logos resource. Though now you'll have to have a chapter that discusses probabilities. [;)]
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Oh, Denise, I fully understand your point...which is why I intend at some point to hire about half-a-dozen or so Ph.D.'s in stochastic probability and infinite number theory to run the numbers. It will all be "incomplete", obviously. I'm pretty sure the Bible is a source of prophecy without ebb. But just using the easily identifiable prophecies, one will top a googol's worth of "chance" without even having to stretch. Georg Cantor, the father of infinite number theory, actually used א as his variable for infinity, and he fully believed his work was a glimpse into the mind of God. He was mocked during his life for his work, but it is now fully accepted as legitimate mathematics. I already have a few folks picked out.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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William Gabriel said:
Aren't you writing the book that's going to become the new gold standard on prophesy? Surely that will become a Logos resource. Though now you'll have to have a chapter that discusses probabilities.
Actually, I have at least two that will discuss these topics directly: Prophecy: The Language of ’Elohhiym and Hermeneutically Sealed—How the God of the Bible Has Hidden Staggering Prophetic Truths from You and Everyone Else for Thousands of Years, plus a few other books that will discuss them indirectly. Don't hold your breath, though. I have about 3-4 others that I have to finish first, but I'm adding material to the manuscripts all the time. The good news is that the ones that precede will also demonstrate these principles.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Hope you include Nero's staggering improbability (but prophesied none the less) re-appearance from the East. I, myself, see the whole thing as improbable and therefore quite believable.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
Hope you include Nero's staggering improbability (but prophesied none the less) re-appearance from the East. I, myself, see the whole thing as improbable and therefore quite believable.
Keep that perspective, it will help you negotiate the Hab. 1:5 keyhole...except you might have to amend your credo to "impossible and therefore quite believable".
I'm personally convinced that John knew that "he" wasn't Nero.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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William Gabriel said:
the quantity simply becomes unfathomable
Yup, add all the natural numbers to infinite together and you get .... drum roll .... -1/12. At least that's the current opinion.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Rick Ratzlaff said:
Is there any Logos resources that deal with that subject.
One idea is searching for:
(probability,odds) WITHIN 12 WORDS prophecy WITHIN 12 WORDS fulfilled
The Complete Jewish Bible introduction includes a reference to an appendix in the Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah for a list of 456 Tanakh passages with Messianic prophecies that have been fulfilled.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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MJ. Smith said:William Gabriel said:
the quantity simply becomes unfathomable
Yup, add all the natural numbers to infinite together and you get .... drum roll .... -1/12. At least that's the current opinion.
Of course you can manufacture endless absurd results when you dabble in indeterminate arithmetic. Those were fun parlor tricks in middle school.
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WOW that's precisely what I'm looking for but my search comes up with absolutely nothing. And I have the second book that you have on the screen. I copied what you have in the search box explicitly. Please help.
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"Of course you can manufacture endless absurd results when you dabble in indeterminate arithmetic."
I'm not sure what you mean by "manufacture"? Math is math, 2 + 2 has always = 4. This math principle is undeniable. Unless one is trying to undo the authenticity of scripture.
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OOPs - spoke too soon. as always. I C&P you line in and bingo. Just missing that one book. I think I'll download it.
I'm dealing with a group of "bright" collage kids who claim to be atheists (bordering on hate literature) who purport "science" to be the "end all to be all". And you know where their getting that from.
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Actually math is a construct, with portions indeed 2+2 = 4.
But when dealing with a collage of college kids, recommend more than the usual dabbling in apologetics.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Unfortunately, many (most ?) seem to equate prophecy with fortune telling. It is not crystal ball gazing. It is viewing the world from God's perspective. One cannot prove God. You either accept God or you don't. If you don't then you feel free to set your own standards of right and wrong (known as sin) despite the fact that you periodically run into the brick wall of reality.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Actually the Bible equates much of prophesy with fortune telling ('fortune' most often referring to the near future). Both of the Testaments constantly harangue those who use prophesy, along with carved wood, to influence people. Jeremiah has to be the textbook on the issue.
And so the simple steps that YHWH outlined in Deuteronomy are not only quite effective, but most often rationalized.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Rick Ratzlaff said:
"Of course you can manufacture endless absurd results when you dabble in indeterminate arithmetic."
I'm not sure what you mean by "manufacture"? Math is math, 2 + 2 has always = 4. This math principle is undeniable. Unless one is trying to undo the authenticity of scripture.
Rick, I'm with you there. Perhaps you misunderstand what I'm saying, because I'm talking about a special case of math where you can draw almost any conclusion you like while dealing with indeterminate expressions [read here]. That's how the recent "proof" that the sum of all natural numbers from 1 to infinity equals -1/12.
The first trick someone taught me was the following:
Let a=b
a^2 = ab
a^2 + a^2 = a^2 + ab
2a^2 = a^2 + ab
2a^2 - 2ab = a^2 + ab - 2ab
2a^2 - 2ab = a^2 - ab
2(a^2 - ab) = 1(a^2 - ab) [divide both sides by (a^2 - ab)]
2 = 1
There you go, I just proved that 1 = 2. Math, is math, right? Why does it work, because the only case that the second to last line holds is if a = b = 0. You end up dividing by zero on both sides (indeterminate) and you end up with the "proof" that 1=2. When you start with this class of mathematical fallacy, you can actually prove just about anything mathematically, like that the sum of natural integers to infinity equals -1/12. What that proof conveniently ignores is that fact that sums actually operate at the limit. If you brush that under the rug, then we're back to being able to prove anything mathematically.
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Rick Ratzlaff said:
I'm dealing with a group of "bright" collage kids who claim to be atheists (bordering on hate literature) who purport "science" to be the "end all to be all". And you know where their getting that from.
That is a simple problem to deal with. Give them a correct understanding of science which is reasoning to the best fit - interested in explanation/prediction as definition of best fit and always open-ended, subject to change and error. Some of the essays in This Will Make You Smarter edited by John Borckman address this well - and the essays are written by people smart college kids will have heard of and be impressed by. This article http://news.illinois.edu/news/04/0802sci.html gives you a hint as to the real nature of science. To attempt to convince them by statistics is doomed to fail - they should all be able to identify the holes in the application of statistics.
If you really want to impress them, once you have shown that science is the wrong model for evaluating religious claims, introduce them to defeasible reasoning -- not only does it fit but you can make a strong case AND prepare them for law school.[:D]
You might also get some hints from the notes developing at the Faithlife group https://faithlife.com/guy-p-harrison-50-simple-questions-for-every-christian/activity which is reading through a skeptic/atheist text.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Rick Ratzlaff said:
WOW that's precisely what I'm looking for but my search comes up with absolutely nothing. And I have the second book that you have on the screen. I copied what you have in the search box explicitly. Please help.
Personally have Match all word forms checked when searching All Text in Entire Library for:
(probability,odds) WITHIN 12 WORDS prophecy WITHIN 12 WORDS fulfilled
Rick Ratzlaff said:Math is math, 2 + 2 has always = 4.
Assuming math symbols have non-variant meanings. If 0 = 1 then 2 + 2 = ???
Keep Smiling [:)]
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We obviously need Is God a Mathematician? by Livio, Mario
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Rick Ratzlaff said:
Math is math, 2 + 2 has always = 4.
Assuming math symbols have non-variant meanings. If 0 = 1 then 2 + 2 = ???
Keep Smiling
Mathematicians seem to have a kind of sick fun changing axioms to see what comes out the other end of the grinder.
c.f. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternion
What surprises me is how often these tweaks can lead to useful processes in places like physics.
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William Gabriel said:
The first trick someone taught me was the following:
Let a=b
a^2 = ab
a^2 + a^2 = a^2 + ab
2a^2 = a^2 + ab
2a^2 - 2ab = a^2 + ab - 2ab
2a^2 - 2ab = a^2 - ab
2(a^2 - ab) = 1(a^2 - ab) [divide both sides by (a^2 - ab)]
2 = 1
Number the lines 1 to 8
From 1) a=b
From 2) a^2 = ab
Leads to a^2 - ab = 0
So in 7) the expression (a^2 - ab) is (0) For all values of a = b.
So 7) reduces to 2 * (0) = 1 * (0) Anything times zero is zero. Step 8 is thus not valid.
"because the only case that the second to last line holds is if a = b = 0" Step 7 holds for all values not just a = b = 0.
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Rick,
Hard Questions About the Bible Made Easy has a compelling case on page 30 quoted below:
==========
“Is the Bible a Reliable Book of Genuine Divine Prophecy?”
WHAT’S THE PROBLEM?“How do the prophecies in the Old Testament tie in with what happened in the New Testament? Can’t you just explain away all the so-called prophecies?”
The prophecies about Jesus
The Bible contains hundreds of detailed prophecies.
Over 60 prophecies in the Old Testament are distinct predictions about Jesus.
Some of these prophecies were made 1,000 years before Jesus lived his life on earth.
Many of these prophecies concern Jesus’ crucifixion. These prophecies were made over 500 years before crucifixion was first used anywhere in the world as a form of capital punishment.Could it just be a fluke that Jesus fulfilled all these prophecies?
A scientist picked out 48 such prophecies and determined that the probability of one man randomly fulfilling them all is 1 in 10 to the exponent of 157. That is 1 followed by 157 zeros!
10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Your chances of winning a typical lottery jackpot is about 1 in 108,000,000. Yet, Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies.
OLD TESTAMENT PROPHECIES ABOUT JESUS’ BIRTH
Prophesied
Fulfilled
1 Born as a descendant of a woman,
2 Born of a virgin,
–25
3 Born as a descendant of David,
4 Born in Bethlehem,
–6
5. Herod kills the children,
–18OLD TESTAMENT PROPHECIES ABOUT JESUS’ DEATH
Prophesied
Fulfilled
1 Betrayed by a friend,
–27
2 Sold for 30 pieces of silver,
–15
3 Forsaken by his disciples,
,
4 Accused by false witnesses, , –21
–61
5 Silent before accusers,
–14
6 Wounded and bruised, –6
–25
7 Beaten and spat on,
–68
8 Mocked, –8
Matth ew 27:27–31
9 Hands and feet pierced,
–28
10
Crucified with thieves,
11 Prayed for his enemies,
12 People shake their heads, ;
13 Cloths gambled for,
–24
14 Became very thirsty,
15 Gall and vinegar offered to him,
16 His forsaken cry,
17 Committed himself to God,
18 Bones not broken,
–36
19 His side pierced,
,
20 Buried in rich man’s tomb,
–60
WHAT’S THE CONCLUSION?“Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.” –11
A QUOTE TO CHEW OVER“Jesus said, ‘Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?’ And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.” –27
Water, M. (2000). Hard Questions about the Bible made easy (pp. 30–31). Alresford, Hampshire: John Hunt Publishers Ltd.==========
--Bro Mark
"I read dead people..."
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Another good resource is Weldon & Ankerberg's Know The Truth About Jesus The Messiah (which is in my Logos library, but I can't find it on the website so that I could link it for you), where he says:
==========
3. If specific prophecies were fulfilled by the Messiah, does the science of probability consider this “proof” there is a God?
Anyone can make predictions—that is easy. Having them fulfilled is another story. The more statements you make about the future and the greater the detail, the better the chances are that you will be proven wrong.
For example, how difficult do you think it would be to indicate the precise kind of death that a new, unknown religious leader would experience a thousand years from today? Could you describe and predict a new method of execution not currently known—one that won’t even be invented for hundreds of years? That’s what David did in 1000 B.C. when he wrote Psalm 22.
Further, if you did think up 50 specific prophecies about some man in the future you will never meet, how difficult do you think it would be for that man to fulfill all 50 of your predictions? How hard would it be for him if 25 of your predictions were about what other people would do to him and were completely beyond his control?
It might be possible to arrange one or two of these prophecies, but it would be virtually impossible for any man to arrange and fulfill all these predictions in advance. If it can be proved that such prophecies were predicted of the Messiah hundreds of years in advance, and one man fulfilled all of them, then that man would logically have to be the Messiah.
God gave a great number of prophecies (more than 400) about the Messiah for at least two reasons. First, it would make identifying the Messiah obvious. And second, it would make an imposter’s task impossible.
Now let us ask an intriguing question. If we assume some 456 prophecies are fulfilled in one person, what does the science of probability say about this? In brief, it says, if accurate predictions were made about a future Messiah and fulfilled years later by one person, this is reasonable proof4 that there is a God.
Here is why. The science of probability attempts to determine the chance that a given event will occur. Professor Emeritus of Science at Westmont College, Peter Stoner, has calculated the probability of one man fulfilling some of the major prophecies made concerning the Messiah. The estimates were worked out by 12 different classes of 600 college students.
The students carefully weighed all the factors, discussed each prophecy at length, and examined the various circumstances which might indicate that men had conspired together to fulfill a particular prophecy. They made their estimates conservative enough so that there was, finally, unanimous agreement even among the skeptical students.
But then Professor Stoner took their estimates and made them even more conservative. He also encouraged other skeptics or scientists to make their own estimates to see if his conclusions were more than fair. Finally, he submitted his figures for review to a Committee of the American Scientific Affiliation. Upon examination, they verified that his calculations were dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific material presented.5
After examining eight different prophecies, Professor Stoner and his students conservatively estimated that the chance of one man fulfilling all eight prophecies was one in 1017.
To show how large the number 1017 is (a figure with 17 zeros), Stoner gave this illustration. Imagine covering the entire state of Texas with silver dollars to a level of two feet deep. The total number of silver dollars needed to cover the whole state would be 1017. Now, choose just one of those silver dollars, mark it, and drop it from an airplane. Then thoroughly stir all the silver dollars all over the state.
When that has been done, blindfold one man, and then tell him he can travel wherever he wishes in the state of Texas. But sometime he must stop, reach down into the two feet of silver dollars, and try to pull up that one specific silver dollar that has been marked.
Now, the chance of his finding that one silver dollar in the state of Texas would be the chance the prophets had for eight of their prophecies coming true in any one man in the future.
Professor Stoner concluded: “The fulfillment of these eight prophecies alone proves that God inspired the writing of those prophecies to a definiteness which lacks only one chance in 1017 of being absolute.”6 Another way of saying this is that any person who minimizes or ignores the significance of the biblical identifying signs concerning the Messiah would be foolish.
But, of course, there are many more than eight prophecies. In another calculation Stoner used 48 prophecies (even though he could have used 456) and arrived at the extremely conservative estimate that the probability of 48 prophecies being fulfilled in one person is 10157.
And how big is 10157? In 10157 years, an ant could actually move all the atoms in 600,000 trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion of our universes a distance of 200,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000 miles. He could do this moving one atom at a time, moving each atom a distance of 30 billion light years, and traveling only at the speed of one inch every 15 billion years!7
This incredibly large number illustrates why it is impossible for anyone to have fulfilled all the Messianic prophecies by chance. In fact, a leading authority on probability theory, Emile Borel, states in his book, Probabilities and Life, that once we go past one chance in 1050, the probabilities are so small it’s impossible to think they will ever occur.8 (10157 is almost infinitely beyond 1050.)
What all this means is it is impossible for these 48 prophecies to be fulfilled apart from divine prediction. This is proof that there must be a God who supernaturally gave this information. The question is, can it be shown that such prophecies do, in fact, exist?
We will now examine several prophetic passages that give us specific statements about the Messiah. As you read through them, ask yourself the following questions: Is this truly a prophecy about a future person? Does Jesus Christ fulfill it and no one else? How was it possible for each of these prophecies to find fulfillment in one man hundreds of years in the future? In other words, if each prophecy is admitted to be about the Messiah and Jesus Christ fulfills all the prophecies, isn’t this proof that Jesus is the Messiah?
Ankerberg, J., & Weldon, J. (2011). Knowing the truth about jesus the messiah. Chattanooga, TN: ATRI Publishing.==========
--Bro Mark
"I read dead people..."
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Brother Mark said:
3. If specific prophecies were fulfilled by the Messiah, does the science of probability consider this “proof” there is a God?
The problem is that the gospels are not simple histories detailing precisely what happened in the sequence in which things occurred. The gospels were rather written with INTENT. Rudolph Bultmann called our attention to this fact. So why does the account show Jesus as the fulfillment of "prophecy"? Because that's what the author intended. One cannot therefore calculate statistics to show an overwhelming probability that Jesus was the Messiah, the seed of the line of David and that God is thereby proven. You can accept the claim of Jesus as God's working among men to bring about reconciliation or not without thereby having to be dependent upon the historical accuracy of the events depicted (glaring example: the enrollment under Quirinius during the reign of Herod). You are looking for the god of the philosophers and not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and his Christ.
31 But these are written so that you may come to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through believing you may have life in his name.
Jn 20.31
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Brother Mark said:
Another good resource is Weldon & Ankerberg's Know The Truth About Jesus The Messiah (which is in my Logos library, but I can't find it on the website so that I could link it for you),
This is because it's on Vyrso - and free: https://vyrso.com/product/29292/knowing-the-truth-about-jesus-the-messiah
Have joy in the Lord!
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True, George.
The 'prophesied' knew of the 'prophesy', and so the logic collapses to the source for both.
But walking around Texas with stacks of silver dollars does sound attractive. In Mark's quote, I was impressed the author didn't get past the first argument before violating a simple Las Vegas-style statistical principle.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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NB.Mick said:Brother Mark said:
Another good resource is Weldon & Ankerberg's Know The Truth About Jesus The Messiah (which is in my Logos library, but I can't find it on the website so that I could link it for you),
This is because it's on Vyrso - and free: https://vyrso.com/product/29292/knowing-the-truth-about-jesus-the-messiah
There seems to be a much larger version for some two dollars (on Vyrso as well). https://vyrso.com/product/29293/the-case-for-jesus-the-messiah Walter Kaiser is listed as an author of it, too, but maybe he just wrote one of the appendices.
Have joy in the Lord!
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George Somsel said:
The problem is that the gospels are not simple histories detailing precisely what happened in the sequence in which things occurred. The gospels were rather written with INTENT. Rudolph Bultmann called our attention to this fact. So why does the account show Jesus as the fulfillment of "prophecy"? Because that's what the author intended. One cannot therefore calculate statistics to show an overwhelming probability that Jesus was the Messiah, the seed of the line of David and that God is thereby proven. You can accept the claim of Jesus as God's working among men to bring about reconciliation or not without thereby having to be dependent upon the historical accuracy of the events depicted (glaring example: the enrollment under Quirinius during the reign of Herod). You are looking for the god of the philosophers and not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and his Christ.
31 But these are written so that you may come to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through believing you may have life in his name.
GREAT perspective! I like the way George thinks... well, occasionally.... ummm, rarely; but this post is spot on! --Bro Mark
"I read dead people..."
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NB.Mick said:
cause it's on Vyrso - and free: https://vyrso.com/product/29292/knowing-the-truth-about-jesus-the-messiah
There seems to be a much larger version for some two dollars (on Vyrso as well). https://vyrso.com/product/29293/the-case-for-jesus-the-messiah Walter Kaiser is listed as an author of it, too, but maybe he just wrote one of the appendices.
Good catch, and thanks for the links! --Bro Mark
"I read dead people..."
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There is a little discussion of the probability of fulfilled prophecy as evidence of the inspiration of Scripture in Josh McDowell's books, which are in Logos.
I agree that one needs to be careful with statistics, and present the facts of fulfilled prophecy without claiming more than is there. Still the fact of fulfilled prophecy can be an impressive argument. I would stay away for getting specific about probabilities. Just the fact that prophesy was fulfilled is impressive enough. Less is often more, and I would not over use this argument.
Of course, the world view of the person to whom you are speaking is crucial. If a person does not believe in divine inspiration, that person will assume the prophecy was written after the event. You need to be aware of that, and if possible give evidence that it was written before the event prophesied. Still, you will find that the majority of lay people in the United States, and many other places, have a world view that does accept the divine inspiration of Scripture, even if they are not Christians. Those people will be the ones who will be impressed by fulfilled prophesy. So it is important to know your audience - their philosophy and world view.
Of course, the listener may not necessarily interpret a prophesy as you do.
Still, I do believe there is a case to be made with fulfilled prophesy so long as it is presented carefully, and more is not claimed than can be demonstrated.
On the other hand, I believe the Bible is a self-authenticating book by the power of the Holy Spirit. I believe it does more good to proclaim it than to try to prove it. I found this quote from Luther in the Logos edition of his Works: "Like a lion among the beasts of the forest... This is metaphorical language with which he indicates the power of the Word and the might of the Spirit. It is as if he were saying: "As a lion puts to flight, knocks down, and seizes its catch when it attacks a herd, so also the Word of the Gospel will make all things its subjects.".
From Luther's comparison of the Word as lion, I think it better to simply turn the lion loose than worry about how to defend him.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
I definitely agree with Michael, relative to the discuss-ee. Where the problem lies, is that discuss-ees are becoming quite familiar with the logic problem, whether the internet, 'Bart' and so forth.
So, trotting out weak arguments simply confirms the discuss-ees prior conclusion .... the apologetic achieves just the opposite of its intent. What's worse, as the claimed evidence collapses, the discuss-er tends to 'clam up' (similar to the Pastoral's recommendation). A Bart-enthusiast loves to debate with our Pastor. The exhausted Pastor eventually clams up .... and everyone around concludes that the points must be valid.
The solution (and one recommended by the NT itself) is to be fully cognizant of the arguments. My personal view is that witnesses who knew the prophesy make the evidence useless (for apologetics). Miracles are similar ... they may indeed be a miracles, but only the initial witness can actually know.
What's interesting is that the NT really has very little apologetics, and the little that it has, makes for weak arguments. And given its source (the Holy Spirit), I'd assume there's a lesson there.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
What's interesting is that the NT really has very little apologetics, and the little that it has, makes for weak arguments. And given its source (the Holy Spirit), I'd assume there's a lesson there.
[Y]
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Denise said:
Just make sure you're arguing with someone not familiar with statistics (not trying to offend but there's quite a bit of false logic under the heading 'statistics').
Yeah, sometimes. But probability isn't "just" statistics...and if you aren't convinced, there are plenty of folks in Vegas who can make the case. The prophecy statistics are literally off the chart. And like I said above, when doing my calculations, I deliberately throw away 90% of the odds "just because", and I still end up blowing through a googol or two before you have a chance to blink...AND...I AM NOT EVEN CONSIDERING THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES FULFILLED BY YEISHUU`A. For anyone to poo-poo these numbers and the idea behind them sight unseen is extremely irresponsible. Given the info presented above, my figures seem to mesh pretty well with the 8 events producing 10^17 figure.
But the additional trump, as I mentioned before, is that there are hundreds of prophecies that have already come true, and more to follow, that are almost universally unrecognized. Not only that, but most people, believers and non-believers alike, will have a built in disposition to deny and dispute the data, but since it is all a matter of historical record, that perspective will be impossible to take seriously. Point being, when Christians themselves are found attempting to deny the prophetic fulfillments--when it is obvious to all that no one even suspected that there was a target that needed to be hit--no one will be able to credibly suggest that anyone was engaged in the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy. This is deliberate Design on His part. You see...no one honestly expects and no one apparently realizes, that the bulls-eye is actually painted on their own chest. EVERYONE sees. No one is blind. And that bit of group psychosis is what leads to Hab. 1:5.
The apparent inclination in this thread to dismiss prophecy and its purpose...I don't know, perhaps "pathetic" is too strong a word, but it is certainly sad, all of this, "Oh, be careful not to say too much!"
Let me be plain: THE BIBLE says that prophecy and its fulfillment is the ultimate evidence. Can I get a witness??
Mt. 24:25
Thank you. And a second?
Mk. 13:23
Thank you. A third wouldn't hurt...
Jn. 13:19, Jn. 14:29, Jn. 16:4
Thank you. Thank you very much.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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David ... you miss the point. When you're singing to the choir, no problem. Extravagent claims work fine. The more extravagent, the more impressive.
It's after church where claims need support. Or in your example of Las Vegas, putting real money on the table.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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My point, Denise, is that MATH IS GOD to the science crowd. That's actually understandable, given their frame of reference. It is the language of the universe, just as prophecy is the language of YHWH. I respect scientists and scientific endeavor, as long as they don't take themselves too seriously. However, they usually always do. Sam Harris is an example. Bright guy...until he isn't. But the one thing these guys almost HAVE to bow to is the math.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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On the contrary, it seems to me, the dispassionate observer (oh, all right... maybe a little passionate), that David gets the point just fine. However, Michael makes excellent points with regard to both the convincing and convicting being the purview to the Holy Spirit. STILL, we have a responsibility to stand ready with an answer for our faith (David, you can give an amen to 1 Peter 3:15 if you like [:D] ). Apologetics is predicated on that premise: give 'em an answer. There is nothing inherently wrong with giving the best answer you have and when, inevitably, you find that you don't have all the answers: give them a cheerful smile, honestly say that you don't have a answer at the moment, but you'll get back to them. This approach is appreciated, and has never failed to get me a second hearing.
So! David, make your best case, bro. Be encouraged! Go out and find yourself a sinner.... and practice on them.
"I read dead people..."
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David, you apparently missed the point of what I wrote earlier: It is the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy—the bullseye was painted after the fact. The chances are therefore 100% that it will show what the writer intended it to show else the writer was incompetent.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Practice on a sinner. See what comes up for air. Well, ok.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
Practice on a sinner. See what comes up for air. Well, ok.
Doesn't that mean that we need to practice on ourselves?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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No one has mentioned that one obstacle for Jews is that they consider a different set of passages as prophetic than the Christians - see Why the Jews Rejected Jesus: The Turning Point in Western History by David Klinghoffer. You need to be able to show that a prophecy was considered a prophecy related to the Messiah before it was fulfilled or you fall into the trap George points out.
Then you need to be able to justify the figures selected for probabilities ... some of the numbers I've seen thrown around exaggerate the rarity of matching the prophecy. So I second Denise's reservations - there are stronger arguments to be used.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
You need to be able to show that a prophecy was considered a prophecy related to the Messiah before it was fulfilled or you fall into the trap George points out.
I disagree, but the reasons I gave for my disagreement would have upset folks, so I just deleted them and typed this instead.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Jn 6:44.0 -
I'm just an old cowboy/truck driver, but seems to me scripture never points to futuristic utterances as just that. At least rarely. The OT prophets spoke the "very words of God", but left it at that.
They never said "watch in the future and you'll ......"
The real definition of prophesy is "speaking forth".
In hind sight Bible writers like in the NT and Christ speak to the fact that (usually OT) scripture is "fulfilled".
Therefore we deduct that the utterance was a "crystal ball" expression.
Non the less as we with 20/20 vision look back we can quantify and qualify how many and itemize the "fulfilled prophesy's".
That math is as objective as it gets. In spite of how Liberals would like to rationalize it away.
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Rick Ratzlaff said:
Non the less as we with 20/20 vision look back we can quantify and qualify how many and itemize the "fulfilled prophesy's".
That math is as objective as it gets. In spite of how Liberals would like to rationalize it away.
I agree ... well at least up to the point where you refer to liberals. The problem is that statistics depends upon probabilities that we usually treat as a bell curve when a pareto curve is more common in nature according to what I've read. And many of the prophecies are very difficult to quantify the probabilities especially with the gaps in our knowledge of the culture. The problem that I (and Denise if I dare speak for her) are trying to point out is that the probabilities associated with fulfilled prophecy are very much open to statistical challenge by a college educated group and therefore a weak argument ... unless you are both a statistician and a historian with a time machine. As there are stronger arguments, why not use them?
Put another way, while I believe in fulfilled prophecy and agree with the probability of fulfilling them all is small, I know I could easily be made to look the fool if I were to present it as strong evidence - I would be utterly unable to defend the probabilities assigned to many of the prophecies, unable to defend the assumed distributions and would quickly be reduced to "well that's what so-and-so said." I don't see not wanting to look like a fool as a liberal trait of rationalization. I see it as a human trait of being able to look like a fool unintentionally often enough to not want to do so intentionally.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
No one has mentioned that one obstacle for Jews is that they consider a different set of passages as prophetic than the Christians - see Why the Jews Rejected Jesus: The Turning Point in Western History by David Klinghoffer. You need to be able to show that a prophecy was considered a prophecy related to the Messiah before it was fulfilled or you fall into the trap George points out.
Daniel 9:26 [H]
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WOW thanks for all the help guys. It's just what I've been looking for. However
"When you're singing to the choir, no problem. Extravagent claims work fine."
In my pea brain - the choir shouldn't need this kind of re-assurance or confidence. It's those to tout that their "World View" (as screwed up as it is) relies on science and math. WHEN THEYPURPORT that science is THEORY based and ever changing. That a quick-sand foundation that has no substance for HOPE.
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