A HUGE plea and concern for Logos
This is completely unacceptable. No activity on this forum for well over a month, while the other 'theological-specific" forums continue to have robust activity. I just don't get it. Something just isn't adding up. I know plenty of Pentecostal ministers (like myself) that love bible-software like Logos, so why there seems to be a disconnect between users and Logos just leaves me scratching my head. I will admit I feel like Logos is more "Reformed" friendly above any other theological stream they offer, by a wide margin, yet I'd still think there would be more interaction in this thread. It's really quite unfortunate, as I feel Logos needs to do some serious work to catch up to rival bible software companies that offer better Pentecostal material overall. There are some basic Charismatic/Arminian works that Logos inexplicably doesn't offer. That needs to change if they really want to become more Pentecostal-friendly.
Hope we see some positive changes going forward.
Comments
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It does seem like logos is slowly bringing more products in. Cindy Jacobs is coming out or has come out recently. I agree with you in that they could improve but I imagine that these things take time. Sorry you are frustrated.
ChelseaFCChelsea FC- Today is a good day!
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Gary Osborne said:
No activity on this forum for well over a month,
Hi Gary,
I understand your concern over this issue. I just wanted to point out; a month is a very short time in the normal timing of product development. I bet there are a lot of Pentecostal resources in the pipeline. Are you aware there are already quite a few in Logos? Would you care to share your wishlist?
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Hi Gary,
We are currently working to hire a full-time Pentecostal/Charismatic Product Manager, who can devote 100% of their time to those efforts.
As soon as that occurs, you will notice a significant increase in activity both on the forums and on our Pre-pub and Community Pricing pages. We want experts in each area to manage those resources, and so any lull is due to waiting to get the best person on board to take the reins.
Thank you for being patient!
Product Department Manager
Faithlife0 -
Gabe Martini said:
We are currently working to hire a full-time Pentecostal/Charismatic Product Manager, who can devote 100% of their time
to those efforts.
Gary, have you considered applying for the job?
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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I'd love the job, but I'm a full time Pastor at a church on the other side of the continent (Florida) so it doesn't seem likely. But I'd sure love to be involved in trying to get some more resources from organizations and denominations like The Assemblies of God (as one example). They have so much they could contribute.
Am I to take from your comment, Gabe, that Rich Tatum is no longer serving as the guy for Pentecostal/Charismatic resources?
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Gary Osborne said:
Am I to take from your comment, Gabe, that Rich Tatum is no longer serving as the guy for Pentecostal/Charismatic resources?
http://www.linkedin.com/in/richtatum
[quote]
Logos Bible Software
April 2013 – January 2014 (10 months) Bellingham, Washington Area0 -
I too look forward to more Arminian/Charismatic works.
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Gary Osborne said:
denominations like The Assemblies of God
Pathway Press is the Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee) publisher and I'd love to see some of their stuff as I'm part of that denomination!
God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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Graham Owen said:
Church of God
Are these resources from your denomination and are you aware of them?:
- Church of God Digital Library Collection 9
- Church of God Digital Library Collection 10
- Church of God Digital Library Collection 11
- Church of God Digital Library Collection 12
- Church of God Digital Library Collection 13
There are some really good things in these collections.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Gabe Martini said:
Hi Gary,
We are currently working to hire a full-time Pentecostal/Charismatic Product Manager, who can devote 100% of their time to those efforts.
As soon as that occurs, you will notice a significant increase in activity both on the forums and on our Pre-pub and Community Pricing pages. We want experts in each area to manage those resources, and so any lull is due to waiting to get the best person on board to take the reins.
Thank you for being patient!
That's great news Gabe, thank you for informing us. On the other hand it seems to me that it is quiet on both sides. If we can suggest more titles and authors, Logos has proved to listen to that in many cases already.
Bohuslav
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I was looking for some books on Azusa Street the other day, surprised the Bartleman and Seymour material not anywhere in Logos. Aren't they PD?
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Super.Tramp said:
Are these resources from your denomination and are you aware of them?:
- Church of God Digital Library Collection 9
- Church of God Digital Library Collection 10
- Church of God Digital Library Collection 11
- Church of God Digital Library Collection 12
- Church of God Digital Library Collection 13
There are some really good things in these collections.
Agree that these are good resources but they are Anderson, Indiana and not Cleveland, Tennessee.
The AOG training materials are also goo and are similar to the ones that we use in Church of God in terms of approach.An example is:
https://www.logos.com/product/8475/assemblies-of-god-history-missions-and-governance-bsb-level-1
God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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I am not disagreeing with OP, but even though Im a pentecostal, Im not that interested in most of what is produced by pentecostals...there would be some Id buy, but unless the scholarship is of Fee's standard, why bother? Surely the popular stuff would be better suited to Vyrso. Well, Im strictly talking about my tastes and my purpose in investing heavily in a bible study program like L5.0
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Is Mebin said:
I am not disagreeing with OP, but even though Im a pentecostal, Im not that interested in most of what is produced by pentecostals...there would be some Id buy, but unless the scholarship is of Fee's standard, why bother? Surely the popular stuff would be better suited to Vyrso. Well, Im strictly talking about my tastes and my purpose in investing heavily in a bible study program like L5.
As I recall, there was a thread last year sometime that expressed a similar feeling. The result of the thread was two fold as I recall: 1. that the Pentecostals are pretty splintered in terms of what they want; once splintered they were few enough in number to make getting books through pre-pub and community pricing tricky (though not impossible). 2. A number of pentecostal folks expressed a dissatisfaction with much of the "scholarship" in the field believing it to be less than scholarly.
I think this thread bears out similar positions.
For me - I would argue that I agree with about half or maybe a 5/8s of the titles in my library. Reading material that contrasts my own view helps me to stay sharp. Sometimes - rarely - I find a position that I have previously dismissed out of hand actually makes more sense (arguing from scripture) than does the position I had previously held.
So my best advice is jump into the base packages, read views that contrast your own, and be the better for it.
Heretics sometimes ask the most interesting questions...
As to being more reformed friendly (and having one foot in that camp, and one foot out), I think it just appears that way because they hired a Reformed product manager pretty early on in the "lets hire product managers" process, and he has been very responsive and effective at getting books into Logos that we care about. That said, they just now got the Westminster confession into Logos... Something that if they were overly friendly towards the reformed camp, would have been here a long time ago. By and large, if you look at the denominational break down of the books in Logos, and indeed in my own library, "evangelical" titles are far more common than any other group.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Two things I'll point out:
1) There's no doubt in my mind that Logos suffers from a lack of standard, well known Arminian/Pentecostal works. This is in stark contrast to the material they offer from Calvinistic/Reformed streams of thought. Here are three of the big name benchmark works offered by other bible software companies that Logos doesn't carry right now:
Adam Clarke's Commentary
Full Life Study Bible (aka Fire Bible)
Full Life Commentary on the New Testament
For the life of me I can't understand why Logos doesn't have all three of these available - right now. Can you imagine how Reformed folks would feel if Logos didn't have Calvin's Commentaries at this point in the game? Or the works of Spurgeon? We'd all say that would be "insane", yet this is what's happening on our side of the theological fence right now. Some standard works are not available, and it just boggles my mind.
2) I agree that there will probably never be as many scholarly works in Pentecostal theology as Reformed, or Baptist, etc. But don't think there isn't a lot of material out there to be mined, so to speak. There is. And much of it is more scholarly than you might think. There are several periodicals, like the Pneuma Review and Paraclete that are fabulous resources that would benefit everyone in Logos. And there are many books and papers that would greatly enhance the Pentecostal section in Logos. So don't think there isn't material available. There is. We just need Logos to take more of an interest.
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Firstly, I didn't intend to put you on the defensive regarding the scholarly nature of pentacostal works. I was just reporting back what other pentacostals had said regarding the subject.
Secondly, the full life study bible and Spurgeon (for instance) are not 1:1 analogs of each other. IE you're comparing apples and oranges. Spurgeon who was baptist, and reformed has cross category interest and thus a wider interest base - the same with Calvin. Comparing the two is sort of like saying the fire bible is as important across the spectrum of Christianity as was the works instrumental in the reformation.
Maybe in 200 years, that may be true of the fire bible, but for now its influence and readership is limited.
Logos is in the end, a business. Things of historical, theological or curiosity value across the spectrum of theological traditions are what we have now; the more specialized writings (Westminster standards for instance - which was instrumental in the formation of the southern baptist convention fwiw which has some 16 million potential customers; and so still not a 1:1 analog) even for the reformed camp are slow in coming.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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No worries about me being on the "defensive" with the comments about Pentecostal scholarship. I understood the point and actually do agree in terms of sheer volume. No doubt about it. There's far less to pick from.
I also see your point about Calvin/Spurgeon and the Fire Bible. And in the context you've set you are absolutely correct. All I was doing is pointing out that there are some standard, important Pentecostal works that are offered by rival bible software companies that aren't offered in Logos. That was really my only point. Especially as it regards Clarke's Commentary. That one is Arminian/Wesleyan as opposed to Pentecostal, but many Pentecostals consider it a valuable asset in their library. Surely even you would admit the omission of that work is glaring. Yes?
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I would even stipulate to its beneficial nature, and to having used it in the past.
However, its also in the progress of becoming a part of Logos.
However at 4$ a volume I am not in. My bid is far lower. It remains to be seen if the price will drop towards the end. If so it will likely become a part of my library. If not, then I suppose not.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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It is "in the progress" of becoming a part of Logos, but my objection is that the progress is painstakingly slow. It's been languishing in community pricing for years now! It should be a part of the standard packages by now. If it's going to be up to Logos users to have it made available, then it's understandably not going to get much traction. The majority of users are clearly in the Reformed camp so that leaves great material like the Adam Clarke Commentary on the outside looking in. A catch-22, almost.
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It is up to the users to make it happen - as with any title.
Perhaps its time to do some evangelism for Logos amoungst your peers?
Logos is not of the perspective of "if we build it they will come" they are more "if they come, we will build it".
Also I don't agree that there are MORE reformed users. I maintain that they are one of the bigger, but still not as largely represented as some of the other groups.
The more vocal a group is, however, the more of their resources end up on pre-pub.
The thing that surprised me is that there are more SDA users than Pentecostals (if sheer post count is any indicator). Further they have nearly as much activity as the reformed camp.
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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I hear ya. I really do. I've tried to do a little recruiting, but I'm nothing close to a salesman at heart. But I do try to make my voice heard (I often feel like a lone voice here) on the matter.
I'm not convinced that Reformed theology isn't the majority here though. Just looking at what's offered, it's hard for me to agree with you. If I were a die-hard Calvinist, I'd love Logos and never feel the need to use any other bible software. As a Pentecostal, I have to use other software to get everything I need. I wish it weren't so. I'd love to use Logos exclusively. But I'm forced to use others in order to get my full range of study in while on the computer.
Sigh...
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Gary Osborne said:
It's been languishing in community pricing for years now
Perhaps that one would benefit from being split into a couple different packages so that it's not such a huge buy in.
(Currently a Southern Baptist that grew up in Pentecostal / Congregational Holiness churches, and far too ignorant to be too hard and fast on some of these issues.)
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Logos certainly has a large number of Reformed or Calvinist works, and that is definitely a large part of our current audience.
However, we are fully committed to expanding that audience to embrace other Christian perspectives. A little of it is 'chicken or the egg,' but we are working to both build products for those audiences, as well as reach out to them and ask them to join us in the Logos family.
I can speak from personal experience, as a non-Reformed Logos employee (and user), that there's a commitment there from Bob and others, and we're pushing ahead as best we can.
Product Department Manager
Faithlife0 -
Gabe Martini said:
Logos certainly has a large number of Reformed or Calvinist works, and that is definitely a large part of our current audience.
However, we are fully committed to expanding that audience to embrace other Christian perspectives. A little of it is 'chicken or the egg,' but we are working to both build products for those audiences, as well as reach out to them and ask them to join us in the Logos family.
I can speak from personal experience, as a non-Reformed Logos employee (and user), that there's a commitment there from Bob and others, and we're pushing ahead as best we can.
Thanks, Gabe. I hope I didn't give the impression that I think Logos itself doesn't want to carry more Pentecostal materials. I know better. Bob P has been kind enough to contact me himself (I was blown away the night I opened my email and found one from him) when he read one of my posts on the forum some time back. So I know you folks at Logos have no biases at all. I've always seen it as being about the customers and where the majority of them are, theologically. If there are more Reformed folks out there in Logos willing to spend their money then Logos is going to naturally carry more Reformed resources. That's just basic supply and demand business. As a non-Reformed, Pentecostal user I get frustrated because I know that by myself I can't "carry the day", so to speak, and create enough demand for the material I'd like to see. There's nothing I can really do about it except encourage other Pentecostals to buy Logos (which I do) and then just sit back and wait to see what happens with new releases. Other than that, I feel I'm pretty powerless to change the percentage output of resources to include more Pentecostal/Arminian-Weslyan material.
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Gary Osborne said:
I feel Logos needs to do some serious work to catch up to rival bible software companies that offer better Pentecostal material overall.
No argument from me on that.
However, in addition to bringing this to Logos' attention, why not also write Pentecostal publishing companies, and ask them to negotiate a contract with Logos. Logos cannot publish anything along these lines without partnering with such publishers.
For publishers that already work with Logos (Zondervan, e.g.), it's most helpful to suggest specific titles in the suggestion forum (don't worry if no one from Logos responds there, all book suggestions are looked at and considered.)
Finally, and this is also essential, get your fellow Pentecostals to bid on Pre-Pubs. For example the Kris Vallotton collection has been stuck in pre-pub for almost a year (not sure what you think of him or Bethel, Redding, but...). There are others. I'm assuming some of these are test-marketing attempts to gauge interest.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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The Works of Adam Clarke are available on our website. The Adam Clarke Commentaries used to be available, either separately or in a collection with Wesley's commentaries. The observation that they are not currently showing is probably due to some issues in updating the licensing for these. The Publishing Dept. can probably give a better clarification.
We really appreciate suggestions of titles, especially when annotated briefly as to their perceived value/contribution. We tried ardently to get more suggestions from faculty at pentecostal schools but got very limited suggestions, probably due to their busy schedules. But we begged for input from faculty from several schools trying to identify the works they prefer their students to have.
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[quote user="Gabe Martini"]
Hi Gary,
We are currently working to hire a full-time Pentecostal/Charismatic Product Manager, who can devote 100% of their time to those efforts.
As soon as that occurs, you will notice a significant increase in activity both on the forums and on our Pre-pub and Community Pricing pages. We want experts in each area to manage those resources, and so any lull is due to waiting to get the best person on board to take the reins.
Thank you for being patient!
[/quote]
This is good news.Thank you Gabe.
Blessings in Christ.
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Did we ever get a full time product manager?
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Nick Cliborne said:
Did we ever get a full time product manager?
Sadly, it doesn't look like it. It's been what...? A year or more since we've had one? And the guy that was doing it before - God bless his soul - didn't really seem to get a lot done for the product. Frankly, any product manager for this section that can't immediately deliver on the most basic of basic resources (both of which have been available via competitors for years now) isn't doing his/her job, imho. What resources am I speaking of?
Fire Bible notes/articles
Life in the Spirit NT Commentary
Both those are as standard to Pentecostal/Charismatic resources as Calvin's Commentaries would be to a Reformed Package.
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