Why are not User Manuals Free?
Comments
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Nathan Parker said:
If there's a way to gift pre-pubs, I'd be happy to contact my sales rep and personally pay for each of you to have this. If not, when it become available, I could contact my sales rep and still personally pay for both of you to have it.
What a generous offer Nathan. Your gentle words of kindness and encouragement are appreciated.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Nathan Parker said:
If there's a way to gift pre-pubs, I'd be happy to contact my sales rep and personally pay for each of you to have this. If not, when it become available, I could contact my sales rep and still personally pay for both of you to have it.
If I did that, would you feel a little "better" about using Logos and be willing to read it and invest the time to learn the software? Additionally, if there's any questions you didn't know how to do something with Logos, I'd be willing to allow you to personally email me and I'd be happy to do my best to explain it.
Nathan, I thank you for your generous offer, it is very kind one I have never turned down such generosity for I know how the Lord Blesses generous people.
Willing to read it, Yes..... that's my problem I have watched every video and most of all the youtube videos as well, but there is much missing... The reason I invested in Logos was to improve my Bible study, but I often close the laptop lid frustrated.
Nathan Parker said:Once you dive into the software and have a chance to truly learn it, you will see just how much it will revolutionize your Bible study. I couldn't be surviving seminary without it.
That was why I purchased it as well..
God Bless, And Thank You
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.
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Every single feature in Logos 6 should be documented and available to users. That is normal commercial practice.
Having features that are not properly documented and having to search the forums for them is a waste of everyone's time.
Logos software is a great product. The lack of a proper manual simply detracts from an otherwise good user experience.
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Bruce Dunning said:Nathan Parker said:
If there's a way to gift pre-pubs, I'd be happy to contact my sales rep and personally pay for each of you to have this. If not, when it become available, I could contact my sales rep and still personally pay for both of you to have it.
What a generous offer Nathan. Your gentle words of kindness and encouragement are appreciated.
Nathan is one of the good guys around here. He shows great wisdom beyond his years with his generous offer. So much more wisdom than the two people quoted below who have Stars under there Avatars. They should be hanging their heads in shame at their responses for they are the sort of responses that only fuel the fire. Too often MVP's around here are quick to judge, belittle and point the issue back at the person who has an issue or complaint about the software or the company.
While Nathan's offer does not fix the ongoing issue it is one of compassion and unconditional love one that reaches out personally to try and make a difference to fellow brothers in Christ.
Well done Nathan.
Super.Tramp said:
Doc B said:The more I stew over it, the madder I get.
Sounds like a spiritual problem.
MJ. Smith said:Doc B said:The more I stew over it, the madder I get.
If I'd know 10% of what I know now before buying in to Logos, I'd never have bought it.
If I could get even a reasonable refund on what I've spent, I'd take it and walk away in a heartbeat. (But I can't, because I took an academic discount, not knowing the 'fine print' about that either.)
Unless and until they fix the training/documentation issues, I'll do my best to make sure no one else makes the same mistakes I did.
I think you've finally hit on the core of the problem. You are a person who stews;
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Bryan S. said:Nathan Parker said:
If there's a way to gift pre-pubs, I'd be happy to contact my sales rep and personally pay for each of you to have this. If not, when it become available, I could contact my sales rep and still personally pay for both of you to have it.
If I did that, would you feel a little "better" about using Logos and be willing to read it and invest the time to learn the software? Additionally, if there's any questions you didn't know how to do something with Logos, I'd be willing to allow you to personally email me and I'd be happy to do my best to explain it.
Nathan, I thank you for your generous offer, it is very kind one I have never turned down such generosity for I know how the Lord Blesses generous people.
Willing to read it, Yes..... that's my problem I have watched every video and most of all the youtube videos as well, but there is much missing... The reason I invested in Logos was to improve my Bible study, but I often close the laptop lid frustrated.
Nathan Parker said:Once you dive into the software and have a chance to truly learn it, you will see just how much it will revolutionize your Bible study. I couldn't be surviving seminary without it.
That was why I purchased it as well..
God Bless, And Thank You
Sounds good. Let me know if you want me to go for it and I'll have an email into my sales rep ASAP to at least see how to get it for you.
If you want to send me a message here and include the email address you use for Logos, that'll help ensure I send it to the right account:
http://www.mallardcomputer.com/wp/about/executives/nathanparker/
I also want to encourage you to do two other things for me:
1. Check out this page and sign up for some free webinars on some topics that interest you:
http://www.learnlogos.com/category_s/1891.htm
I've attended a bunch of these, and they're a great way to get you to feel more confident in the program. You're interacting with other believers live, can ask questions, etc. Even though I'm a "seasoned" Logos user and thought I knew a bunch about the program, these webinars helped me to go from knowing a lot about the program to better using it efficiently. They've been very practical for me and been a huge help. And great thing is, they're free.
Also, feel free to join this group on Faithlife:
https://faithlife.com/learnlogoscom-presentation/activity
It was used for a Bible study Learn Logos did on Jonah. I'm trying to get with John to revamp the page and use it as a group page where we can interact with each other, answer questions on how to do things in Logos, etc. I don't work for Learn Logos or for John, but I wanted to help users get more out of Faithlife groups and Logos, so I've been volunteering my time on this group page (and others).
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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Disciple of Christ (doc) said:
While Nathan's offer does not fix the ongoing issue it is one of compassion and unconditional love one that reaches out personally to try and make a difference to fellow brothers in Christ.
Will Nathan's offer satisfy either one of them?
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Nathan Parker said:
I also want to encourage you to do two other things for me:
1. Check out this page and sign up for some free webinars on some topics that interest you:
I have done that a few weeks ago
Nathan Parker said:Also, feel free to join this group on Faithlife:
I have done this as well.
Nathan Parker said:I don't work for Learn Logos or for John, but I wanted to help users get more out of Faithlife groups and Logos, so I've been volunteering my time on this group page (and others).
Once again Thank You
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.
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Nathan Parker said:
For Doc and Bryan:
Logos is in the process of digitizing Morris Proctor's "What's New in 6 Manual" as an eBook in your library:
https://www.logos.com/product/48987/logos-6-whats-new
If there's a way to gift pre-pubs, I'd be happy to contact my sales rep and personally pay for each of you to have this. If not, when it become available, I could contact my sales rep and still personally pay for both of you to have it.
If I did that, would you feel a little "better" about using Logos and be willing to read it and invest the time to learn the software? Additionally, if there's any questions you didn't know how to do something with Logos, I'd be willing to allow you to personally email me and I'd be happy to do my best to explain it.
If you'd rather have the hard copy instead of the eBook, that can be arranged as well.
Would you have more confidence in the software if a fellow brother in Christ paid to give you the training/manual you need?
Once you dive into the software and have a chance to truly learn it, you will see just how much it will revolutionize your Bible study. I couldn't be surviving seminary without it. If it means paying out of my own pocket to give you more confidence in Logos, I'm willing to do it. That's how much I believe it'll deepen your Bible study.
And no, I am not on Faithlife's payroll or represent the company in any way. I'm just a fellow user willing to do what it takes to see another couple fellow users satisfied.
Wow how generous of you. God Bless you always my Brother in Christ!
James
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As Disciple of Christ pointed out, Whether these 2 are satisfied or not is not the Real issue. Greasing the hub of the squeaky wheel will not fix the neglected/abused spokes which will eventually cause the wagon to crumble.Super.Tramp said:Disciple of Christ (doc) said:While Nathan's offer does not fix the ongoing issue it is one of compassion and unconditional love one that reaches out personally to try and make a difference to fellow brothers in Christ.
Will Nathan's offer satisfy either one of them?
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Well, Paul. Now we're getting down to the spokes of the problem.
That would be, that you can't purchase a manual (or pre-pub). The offer is just the intro to L6. I already tried to actually 'buy' a manual. Failed.
If you're wanting to use 'Logos', I suspect Dan's idea is about as far as you're going to get. Just being wagon-realistic. I'll let the ladies at church know the good news.
EDIT: Don't know if you saw the blog about the discount on Logos5 manuals just weeks before the Logos6 rollout. I had to cringe a bit, when I saw that searching.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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It is possible for most of us to go retro and abandon the new (albeit rickety) wheels. Some would rather have a reliable rickshaw than a crippled stage coach.
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Paul C said:
It is possible for most of us to go retro and abandon the new (albeit rickety) wheels. Some would rather have a reliable rickshaw than a crippled stage coach.
Provided people aren't trying to strap homeless people to them to carry people around the city. ;-) (Seinfeld episode)
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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When I was in Telecom software industry, I wrote specifications, code, user manuals and gave user training. For me this thread sounds like a collection of standard complaints.
As a Logos user, I am happy to buy the training manuals. Often I check the Logos help in the net and discussion forums, and they are sort of free. Regarding to the videos, I feel they are boring: I use them as the last resort. The best way to learn is playing with the software: "trial and error".
The Logos software is very rich in features, it is very useful, it is very complex, it has bugs, and some features are "under construction" - there is no "Five easy steps to ... "
Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11
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See the Reading List: Verbum Practicum w/ Verbum Blog Training for an updated list of training/reference materials for Verbum. It does include two items that must be purchased:
- All Roads Lead to the Text: Eight Methods of Inquiry into the Bible | A Template for Model Exegesis with Exegetical Examples Employing Logos Bible Software
- Verbum Practicum ... which was free with certain L5 packages+
Note this was created last April in order to be able to check items off as read or watched.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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An example of Logos documentation - online line which means we can "demand" it be up to date:
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Nathan Parker said:
I could contact my sales rep and still personally pay for both of you to have it.
Nathan, you are generous and kind, and as usual, one of the most helpful forum members.
Your offer is appreciated, but not necessary. I can afford the Proctor book. I've bought others in the past, and they were helpful.
But that doesn't solve the problem with the parent company.
Again, I appreciate you.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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MJ. Smith said:
An example of Logos documentation - online line which means we can "demand" it be up to date:
If this could either be put into a Logos book that's updated with each major release OR if Logos could link to this from their "Welcome section" of the home page and update this with every major release (as well as build it out to be quite exhaustive), then I think we'd have a winner.
The online method might be best, with results integrated into "Everything" search so if someone needed to search the documentation, they could from Logos.
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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Doc B said:Nathan Parker said:
I could contact my sales rep and still personally pay for both of you to have it.
Nathan, you are generous and kind, and as usual, one of the most helpful forum members.
Your offer is appreciated, but not necessary. I can afford the Proctor book. I've bought others in the past, and they were helpful.
But that doesn't solve the problem with the parent company.
Again, I appreciate you.
Sounds good. My offer will still be around if you decide to take me up on it, or if you want to purchase it directly, that's great as well. I've read the printed edition, and it's pretty good. It's not an exhaustive manual about every feature in Logos itself, but it is a very good manual to get you up to speed with all the new features. I've already mailed my copy off to another brother in Christ who recently got L6, otherwise I'd drop it in the mail to you.
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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Nathan Parker said:
The online method might be best, with results integrated into "Everything" search so if someone needed to search the documentation, they could from Logos.
I have suggested to Faithlife that at a minimum they make the search function in help include both online and local data in the results ... this would at least put them closer to the Microsoft approach.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Nathan Parker said:
The online method might be best, with results integrated into "Everything" search so if someone needed to search the documentation, they could from Logos.
I have suggest to Faithlife that at a minimum they make the search function in help include both online and local data in the results ... this would at least put them closer to the Microsoft approach.
True. Integrating the other Logos/Faithlife family of sites into the Everything search would be a handy plus as well.
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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I agree this would be a positive step in the right direction. The software should bring help to the user, the user shouldn't have to go out looking for it on various online sites.
MJ. Smith said:Nathan Parker said:The online method might be best, with results integrated into "Everything" search so if someone needed to search the documentation, they could from Logos.
I have suggest to Faithlife that at a minimum they make the search function in help include both online and local data in the results ... this would at least put them closer to the Microsoft approach.
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Found the solution (just kidding!):
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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I think "Not done until Documented" is compatible with "Release early, release often".
Disciple of Christ (doc) said:The software should bring help to the user, the user shouldn't have to go out looking for it on various online sites.
I agree with the call for full free documentation of the features/components of Faithlife products. Additional training on the proper or effective use of a documented feature/component is, I think, an extra which is rightly offered at additional cost and/or effort.
Nathan Parker said:Nice find Nathan, a read of that article furthers the discussion of what properly belongs in a product manual.
Though the original post to this thread set a tone I didn't like, the question posed by the Bryan S. when he changed the subject heading is a good one. It is recently further discussed in another thread begining at the post linked to below.
https://community.logos.com/forums/p/100199/695385.aspx#695385
"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963
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In the absence of a good manual (although I think the call for screencasters is a good idea), how do the different third party tools stack up? I am thinking specifically of the CampLogos videos versus LearnLogos.com
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.
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Hello, Justin!
I can’t comment on the videos because I’ve never seen them, but I do have the training manuals from MP Seminars and I can say they are very well done, thorough, and now come with the What’s New in 6 manual. The price isn’t bad for what you get! Link to training bundle.
Logos Series X Pastor’s Library | Logos 3 Leader’s Library | 4 Portfolio | 5 Platinum | 6 Feature Crossgrade | 7 Essential | 8 M & W Platinum and Academic Professional | 9 Academic Professional and Messianic Jewish Diamond
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I recieved an extensive manual with my autumobile and I think that one should be issued with Logos - especially since I have more invested in Logos than I do my auto.
Yours In Christ
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Wonderous Grace said:
I recieved an extensive manual with my autumobile and I think that one should be issued with Logos - especially since I have more invested in Logos than I do my auto.
[Y][Y][Y]
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.
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I figured I should weigh in as well:
With thousands of dollars invested in my library, there should be from Logos a FREE manual and training. Paying $225 for MP to tell me how to use the program is just ridiculous IMO. For Logos to say "here's our product, now pay to learn how to use" seems self-defeating.
But there are other users who have stepped up to show us how to use it and for free or nearly free.
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Everett Headley said:
With thousands of dollars invested in my library, there should be from Logos a FREE manual and training. Paying $225 for MP to tell me how to use the program is just ridiculous IMO.
Hey, it's down to $200 now! We should be thrilled!
https://community.logos.com/forums/p/100718/696147.aspx#696147
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Scott E. Mahle said:
Hello, Justin!
I can’t comment on the videos because I’ve never seen them, but I do have the training manuals from MP Seminars and I can say they are very well done, thorough, and now come with the What’s New in 6 manual. The price isn’t bad for what you get! Link to training bundle.
The new Logos 6 Training Manuals are available for pre-order at MP for $39.95 plus shipping--shipping March 1.
Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC
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Those training manuals are not in digital format, cannot be accessed from L6. Many of us do not want a physical manual. We want a digital manual. Videos are nice. But they are not manuals.
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Mark said:
Those training manuals are not in digital format, cannot be accessed from L6. Many of us do not want a physical manual. We want a digital manual. Videos are nice. But they are not manuals.
I totally agree. I would like the manual in Logos format so I can use In-Line Search on it!
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Antonius said:Mark said:
Those training manuals are not in digital format, cannot be accessed from L6. Many of us do not want a physical manual. We want a digital manual. Videos are nice. But they are not manuals.
I totally agree. I would like the manual in Logos format so I can use In-Line Search on it!
I want both! [:)] There are times when I want a paper copy besides me and other times I want to do it all on the laptop.
Charlene
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I thought it unusual that one of the new Proctor videos (at a reasonable price) only seems to contain information about the upgrade differences?
Am I wrong? I would have bought it if it covered everything.
--I still find 6.0 rather an unnecessary upgrade as I do not yet do much with original languages. I find some of the minute things they have done useless. I am more impressed by common everyday things and upgrades (like improving functionality for people trying to get to a book, chapter, and verse quickly in a Bible study. I still find Windows and Android functionality there a bit cumbersome).
I really wish the developers would use some of us as testers. I would be happy to let them know (kindly) what is nice but useless for us common non-techies just trying to open a few commentaries while following along in say a NKJV on Sunday Mornings.
They all have permission to track my usage on Tuesday nights at 6 pm est and Sundays from 9-12 noon anytime.
Blessings,
Joshua
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Mark said:
A digital version has never existed.
https://www.logos.com/product/48987/logos-6-whats-new is a digital manual (under development) showing what is new in Logos 6.
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Graham Criddle said:Mark said:
A digital version has never existed.
https://www.logos.com/product/48987/logos-6-whats-new is a digital manual (under development) showing what is new in Logos 6.
This has never existed before and it is a first step. BUT it is only a digital what's new manual. It is not a full digital manual.
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Mark said:
Charlene, the physical manual is provided. You can order it at a reasonable price. A digital version has never existed.
Not true. If you check the Logos Wiki page on Contents of Discontinued Base Packages you will see a digital user manual was included in Logos 2.0 Level 4. I have that package.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Thank you for the updated information. I started with L3. Never had L2. I wonder why it was not included in L3, L4, L5 and now L6? I was unaware that it was included in L2. I wonder if it was also included in L1. Was Morris Proctor producing manuals back in L1 and L2? Or did he start with L3?
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I don't know when Morris Proctor started producing manuals and conducting seminars. The first MP seminar I went to was for L4. I know Libronix 1.6 did not have a digital user manual. I can't remember if it had a paper manual or not. I have no idea why L6 doesn't have an electronic manual. It does have a help file and Quickstart videos. Then there is the user wiki and free training videos on Youtube.Mark said:Thank you for the updated information. I started with L3. Never had L2. I wonder why it was not included in L3, L4, L5 and now L6? I was unaware that it was included in L2. I wonder if it was also included in L1. Was Morris Proctor producing manuals back in L1 and L2? Or did he start with L3?
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Mark said:Charlene said:
I want both!
Charlene, the physical manual is provided. You can order it at a reasonable price. A digital version has never existed. It is a sticking point for many logos users.
Hi Mark,
I understand that. I have been with Logos since CDWord days (Logos 1.6). The major point of these posts is to show that many Logos users feel that Logos should provide a FREE manual with its software. So I was just stating that my preference would be a hard copy as well as a digital copy.
Charlene
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I understand, Charlene and should have noted that sooner. I agree that some like a physical manual and some like a digital manual. I agree that the main issue of this thread is that we feel it should be a free resource.
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I have a real problem with calling Logos a free program. One can download it free, even the latest edition now. But to do much of anything with it you need to pay a fair amount of money. It is almost like going to a coffee shop and hearing the coffee is free here... but we are going to charge you for grinding it, the hot water and everything else. One or two may be content to chew on a coffee bean, but until it is ground and water is added and in many cases milk and sugar it just is not all that useful, indeed you cannot even get a good sense of what coffee is until it is ground and made into coffee (as one who virtually never drinks coffee I am not sure why I choose this example). I at no point ever expected a free physical manual to be printed and mailed out to me as a user, what I can say is it is a shame that a fine product like Logos would not have a better amount of documentation on it's use.
-dan
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Dan Francis said:
I have a real problem with calling Logos a free program.
You shouldn't. It is free. Truly free. To use your coffee shop analogy, it is like going to Starbucks and being offered a free tall caffè americano. You might want a Grande. You've got to pay for it. You might want a caffè mocha or a caramel macchiato. Again, sorry, you have to pay... but that doesn't diminish the "freeness" of the tall americano.
A user could create an account, acquire a bunch of free resource licenses (both Logos and Vyrso editions), and have a functioning (albeit limited) Bible software program for both desktop and mobile. They can make notes and highlights and have those sync between devices. Free. They can "send to kindle" their resources. Free. They can post in the forums and ask questions (and they do!)... Free.
Dan Francis said:what I can say is it is a shame that a fine product like Logos would not have a better amount of documentation on it's use.
Completely agree. A Morris Proctor style manual (not video training) should be provided with base packages, at least at some level (silver? gold?).
macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
Choose Truth Over Tribe | Become a Joyful Outsider!0 -
Graham, many thanks for pointing this out.
However, IMO it (1) should be free with puchase of L6 and (2) needs to cover not just what is new, but how to use the total program (every aspect). While many here know how to use the basics, new users especially need to learn it from the ground up.
I'm thankful that my auto manual doesn't just cover what is "new." I know how to change a tire, but someone new ... may not be able to ....
Such a manual (electronic, written) could save Logos a lot of expenses in phone calls, emails, ....
Graham Criddle said:Mark said:A digital version has never existed.
https://www.logos.com/product/48987/logos-6-whats-new is a digital manual (under development) showing what is new in Logos 6.
Yours In Christ
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alabama24 said:Dan Francis said:
I have a real problem with calling Logos a free program.
You shouldn't. It is free. Truly free. To use your coffee shop analogy, it is like going to Starbucks and being offered a free tall caffè americano. You might want a Grande. You've got to pay for it. You might want a caffè mocha or a caramel macchiato. Again, sorry, you have to pay... but that doesn't diminish the "freeness" of the tall americano.
A user could create an account, acquire a bunch of free resource licenses (both Logos and Vyrso editions), and have a functioning (albeit limited) Bible software program for both desktop and mobile. They can make notes and highlights and have those sync between devices. Free. They can "send to kindle" their resources. Free. They can post in the forums and ask questions (and they do!)... Free.
True enough and FL is very generous providing Faithlife Study Bible Items and the Lexham Bible for free... this truly is like getting a free cup of coffee... It is most useful and a good thing for people to try Logos. And I do not believe FL has any responsibility to make any of it's resources available free. I remember more than a few people complaining that it was not free because you could not use so may features without purchase. My apologies for that outburst (should be heading out to the woodshed [:$]) about Verbum/Logos freeness. At the most basic level it is most certainly free, but it is not too powerful in that state (but then again it never claims you can do everything free).
-Dan
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Jesse Blevins said:
Logos 7 should definitely include some kind of ebook manual that goes into depth with the software. The days of having to pay a third party big dollars to teach us how to use the software should come to an end.
Totally agree! I don't want a video course. I want a detailed manual that contains all of the not so obvious commands that would help me use Logos.
I can learn at least 5 times as fast with a manual than with a video course.Please Faithlife, focus on helping your customers use your products better.
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Taxee said:
Please Faithlife, focus on helping your customers use your products better.
That last sentence would make a great signature item for the forums. If I start using it, I'll give proper attribution. [y]
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Taxee said:
I can learn at least 5 times as fast with a manual than with a video course.
Please Faithlife, focus on helping your customers use your products better.
I am the same way, the videos are good, but I learn a lot faster with a manual.
I am not waiting for a good, free, manual to be included with the packages , I purchased the Morris Proctor Logos 6 training manuals for $40.
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