Why did Joseph and Mary stay in Bethlehem for 2+ years after Jesus was born?
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Bryan S. said:Lee said:
Bryan, I don't fault you for not knowing about this.
The Forums exist to support users, and to promote the company. Forum guidelines are here. General theological discussion fits better elsewhere.
Why are you Slamming me for this!!! I did not start this thread! and further more lee why where were you not saying this to the other 13 posters before me... Are you trying to pick a fight with me? I simply answered the mans question, your comments should be directed at everyone and not me!!!
No, Bryan, I wasn't slamming anyone, much less you. You wondered why talking about the contents of the bible (aren't they Logos resources?) would be frowned on, so I tried to explain the fuller context of what I meant.
As to "picking a fight etc. etc," really I don't deserve this. The sort of aggressive language you display, fueled in part by the conviction that others are interfering with the proper explanation of the holy writ, is precisely why FaithLife does not welcome theological debates per se on the company Forums.
Justin Gatlin said:Some Logos tools so we can keep playing in this sandbox:
Your analysis, using Logos tools, is quite relevant!
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Lee said:
As to "picking a fight etc. etc," really I don't deserve this. The sort of aggressive language you display, fueled in part by the conviction that others are interfering with the proper explanation of the holy writ, is precisely why FaithLife does not welcome theological debates per se on the company Forums.
Lee let me be quite frank,
This post was started on Dec 23 2014 6:20 AM why were you not complaining about it to the original poster then? or even the next day as you were posting things on this forum those days. all of the post up until your post were quite chordal I read them all. And I can't tell but I don't think anyone posting on this thread had any issues with the question at hand.
I quoted the bible numerous times in my post which you say is a logos resource. So it seemed there was no issue with you and this thread until I posted a response...So if you were not trying to pick a fight tell me why it took you so long to condemn this thread?????
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.
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Let me also be quite frank, brother.
1. I'm not doing any condemnation. Stop the language cheap-shots.
2. This thread could go many ways, despite the invitation to "speculate". Even OT threads can go on track. I was suggesting that folks make it more relevant to the Forum's objective. If this offends you because that suggestion happens to come after your post, you're taking it personally when you shouldn't. I've explained myself with great care already, and if you insist this is a personal attack on you, even stooping to using aggressive language, then I'll let God be the judge.
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Lee said:
I've explained myself and if you insist this is a personal attack on you, and even using aggressive language, then I'll let God be the judge.
Fine, If you were not attacking me I apologize, but you still have not answerd my question why so long? why not post something as soon as a thread is started and not wait 4-5 days?
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.
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Cool off, wait a few days, come back and read it again, ask the question nicely, and I might answer.
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steve clark said:
Perhaps they stayed in Bethlehem a little over 41 days.
In Luke 2:21-38 details how Joseph & Mary fulfilled the requirements of the law. Then in Luke 2:39 it says after fulfilling the requirements of the law that they returned to Nazareth.
In Matt 2:1-8 we hear of the Magi and Herod. In Matt 2:9 the Magi went on their way probably headed toward Bethlehem. But in the same verse it says that the star appeared and lead them to the house where Jesus was. It doesn't say that was in Bethlehem. So it is possible that the house was in Nazareth.
Edit: Or that the Magi's visit was within the time that Joseph, Mary & Jesus were still in Bethlehem. And Herod used 2 year old children to be sure he was thorough.
I think the Bible tells us in Luke 2:39-40,
39-40
When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth. 40 And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was on him.
The shepherds, magi and trip to Egypt had to be within the 41 days, because of verse 39-40 says Messiah stayed in Nazareth after purification.
The star must have given them time to get to Bethlehem right after the birth.
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Lee said:
Cool off, wait a few days, come back and read it again, ask the question nicely, and I might answer.
Lee, I have no intention of re-asking the question, the silence says it all.
Lots of love in the Lord Brother. Talk to you again later perhaps in another thread [:)]
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.
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Silence in the face of arrogance and aggression does speak volumes. It could also mean, as someone hinted at, that I have better things to do.
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Bryan S. said:David Ames said:
So I also think that they were in Bethlehem for about 2 years staying with Joseph's friends and close family
No couldn't be because of Luke 2:25-39 which clearly stated that after they left the temple in Jerusalem they went back to Nazareth. which is clearly stated in Verse 39.
So they stayed up to 40 days in Bethlehem then traved to Jerusalem because the days of purification were over. Dedicated Jesus in the temple then went back home to Nazareth.
Except that Matthew says that they fled to Egypt.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
Except that Matthew says that they fled to Egypt.
Yes this is true, Perhaps what happened was that as they left Jerusalem to head back to Nazareth we know that an angel warned them and they went straight to Egypt.
Looking at a Logos interactive maps (sand box) Nazareth is way up north so it wouldn't make much since to travel that far north than to turn around and head straight back through Jerusalem to Egypt... Perhaps [:)]
EDIT: Posted Logos Pic
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.
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Bryan S. said:George Somsel said:
Except that Matthew says that they fled to Egypt.
Yes this is true, Perhaps what happened was that as they left Jerusalem to head back to Nazareth we know that an angel warned them and they went straight to Egypt.
Looking at a Logos interactive maps (sand box) Nazareth is way up north so it wouldn't make much since to travel that far north than to turn around and head straight back through Jerusalem to Egypt... Perhaps
Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. Perhaps anything is possible. It is best to simply read what the text states and not attempt to make acommodations for what any other text may say. The clear implication is that the kings visited them in Bethlehem and they straightway went to Egypt. Does Luke's account agree with this? Absolutely not, but they aren't writing history. The religious implications of each story is to be understood by itself.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. Perhaps anything is possible. It is best to simply read what the text states and not attempt to make acommodations for what any other text may say. The clear implication is that the kings visited them in Bethlehem and they straightway went to Egypt. Does Luke's account agree with this? Absolutely not, but they aren't writing history. The religious implications of each story is to be understood by itself.
Yes, I agree which I said the same as you in a earlier post, did you see it? except below
George Somsel said:The clear implication is that the kings visited them in Bethlehem and they straightway went to Egypt.
No, They went to Jerusalem first.
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.
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Bryan S. said:George Somsel said:
Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. Perhaps anything is possible. It is best to simply read what the text states and not attempt to make acommodations for what any other text may say. The clear implication is that the kings visited them in Bethlehem and they straightway went to Egypt. Does Luke's account agree with this? Absolutely not, but they aren't writing history. The religious implications of each story is to be understood by itself.
Yes, I agree which I said the same as you in a earlier post, did you see it? except below
George Somsel said:The clear implication is that the kings visited them in Bethlehem and they straightway went to Egypt.
No, They went to Jerusalem first.
Not according to Matthew. You are conflating Matthew and Luke and attempting to reconcile them. It can't be done.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
You are conflating Matthew and Luke and attempting to reconcile them.
Not likely to reconcile George and Bryan either.
--All in fun [;)]
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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George Somsel said:
Not according to Matthew. You are conflating Matthew and Luke and attempting to reconcile them
They must be reconciled
Just because Matthew didn't say it doesn't mean it didn't happen, fact is it had to happen according to scripture remember Jesus kept all the law, I say again all the Law of which being dedicated in the temple was part of the Law and if that didn't happen he is not Savior for all the law was not kept.
I preach the harmony of the Gospels, not the separate or disunity of them, one complements the other, all God breathed by the Holy Ghost...
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.
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Totally OT, but I've been stuck on Herod's tomb (BAR Jun 83) where the professor thought he found the tomb, slipped and fell and died, and now his students say not so. Poor guy!
Anyhow, Bethlehem's right on the road to Herodium (back then). I'd bet Herod was quite familiar with Bethlehem, since likely he passed through several times during the Matthew/Luke account. We could ask him.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Riddle: How many Logosians does it take to move a topic to the correct forum?
Answers: The same indeterminate number of Logosians it takes to continue a topic in an inappropriate forums.
Statements re: reconciliation/non-reconciliation are clearly theological and since we have already had some sharp words in this thread, I'm getting very uncomfortable. And thanks Rich for trying to stamp out hot spots. (Yes, Rich has special knowledge of fire fighting).
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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George Somsel said: Except that Matthew says that they fled to Egypt.
Question: In first century middle east would you want to travel with a new baby [40 days old or so] or with a 2 year old?
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MJ. Smith said:
Riddle: How many Logosians does it take to move a topic to the correct forum?
When moved please drop a link here so we can find it and continue. [Hopefully with out the need of fire fighting] Thanks
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George, aren't we supposed to use scripture to interpret scripture?
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george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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David Ames said:
George Somsel said:
Except that Matthew says that they fled to Egypt.
Question: In first century middle east would you want to travel with a new baby [40 days old or so] or with a 2 year old?
Want and need are two separate things. The text doesn't present a picture that the holy family thought they would go on a vacation to Egypt—they were fleeing for safety. Also, it allowed Matthew to connect them with the tradition of the Exodus ("Out of Egypt …").
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Rich DeRuiter said:
Technically this is a discussion not directly related to how to use Logos, it's a discussion about something in the Bible itself (for which we can use Logos to research, I admit). It should go to the ChristianDiscourse discussion forum.
But short, non-controversial topics are often tolerated on these forums, especially if they illustrate how to use the software. This discussion does not seem controversial.
Okay, now this discussion is getting off-topic (of the off-topic discussion) and becoming a debate about how to interpret (real or alleged) discrepancies between narrative accounts. Such debates are not welcome by either Logos (according to their policy) or the majority of the users of this forum (in my experience).
Forum Guidelines: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/10072.aspx
No Theological Debates: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/35165.aspx
As a fellow user of these forums, I'm asking that those who wish to pursue this further, please take this discussion to ChristianDiscourse.com.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Actually Matthew says they want to eat you up after the magi visited. Luke says that they went to Nazareth after the temple dedication and purification sacrifice. Two different events.
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I think it was just a lousy real estate market took forever to sell their house.
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Whyndell Gizzard said:
I think it was just a lousy real estate market took forever to sell their house.
[Y] BTDT
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I think some threads are best off locked, like abandoned houses.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Thank you for your very informative post. A few points may please be considered, though it is very late.
1. Distance between Jerusalem (Herod's place) and Bethlehem may take 2 to 3 days of travel for wise men. Herod may not have the patience to wait for more than 1 year or so, as he has felt threatened of his position already. So it is likely that the wise men have traveled for more than 1 year before reaching Jerusalem.
2. "Born king of Jews" can be viewed as the next person born to take up Kingship e.g. born to conquer.
3. In Taxilla (olden India, todays Pakistan), there was a belief before Islamic era that the wise men passed through that place. Thomas also visited that place in 60 AD., met King Gondophores. The only university at that period in the East was Taxilla University, where wise men from all east were present. Taxilla University was established in 600 BCE and continued till 500 CE. Thomas further came down to India (west coast) to meet Jews there, established 7 churches in Kerala, one half church, one in Anuradhapura, Srilanka and 1 in Chennai, East coast .
We saw his star rise in the East, Herod asking for exact time of the star, more than 1 year travel for 4000 km distance, existence of only University at that time, being with circle of relatives till child grows up...all somehow coincides with 2 years..
Please google and see, you may get more insights and also feel free to mention if I am wrong..
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Bob Fuller said:
the visit of the magi at the house where they were could easily have been very close to the shepherd's visit - a matter of a few days (likely after his presentation in the temple).
What if the "star" appeared at the moment of the Birth? Add some time while they examined what that "star" ment. Add some time while they planed and got ready for their journey. Add some time while they traveled from most likely Babylon to Jerusalem. That they arrived in time for Jesus second birthday seems reasonable to me. [Also the word: "Child" not "baby" nor "infant"]
Also who had to register for the census? Every one or just the property owners so Rome would know who to tax? Did Joseph own a home in Bethlehem? And was it rented out so that there was no room for him in his own house?
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Bryan S. said:
So the wise men had LESS THAN FORTY DAYS to visit Jesus in Bethlehem, or He would have been gone to Jerusalem. After that, He would have been back in Nazareth for a short time, and then in Egypt for a period of time.
Question: How far is it from Bethlehem to Jerusalem? [[Answer: about 5 miles]] They would not have had to MOVE to Jerusalem only walked to the Temple and then returned home to Bethlehem after the Ceremony.
Next question: Did Luke cover everything? [John admits that he did not cover everything.] Did Luke perhaps not know of the time in Egypt? Mathew traveled with Jesus. Paul did not. Luke joined Paul some time latter. Mathew had the opportunity to question or hear the stories that Mary told. Luke did not have that opportunity. Assuming that Luke did interview Mary - How thoroughly did he question "the mother of his Lord"?
Bryan S. said:The passage says the wise men asked, “Where is he that is born King of the Jews?” They were looking for the King that was newly born. They were not looking for a two year old boy.
Is not one 'born to be king' still 'born to be king' many many years after his birth?
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