where to start with greek/hebrew?

Great question.

Can't speak for Hebrew. My advice would be to pick one or the other. And assuming that you are thinking more than simply running the bible word guide, I'll give some thoughts based on my expirence with Greek, if that is ok?

Firstly, I am in the same boat as you. Whilst I have an undergrad in Theology I dropped out of the Greek module. But in recent years have begun attempting to learn again. Others can probably offer more practical advice, but as a fellow traveler, here is what I have found so far. 

Here's how I've been teaching myself Greek. 

1. A good flashcard app. Forget the Logos one, it is rubbish! I use Quizlet and this study set (https://quizlet.com/_4ju3zy) which covers 221 most used NT words and some grammar terms. 20 minutes a day - drill drill drill. That's been the least glamorous side of learning, but is essential. You simply will not get anywhere if you don't do this bit.

2. A Greek NT (I use the SBLGNT but any will do).  

3. A decent lexicon. No need to fork out on BDAG - it will probably be too advanced for you anyway. I use the Louw-Nida. 

4. A morphological visual filter. This is really helpful as it helps you work whether you are looking at a noun or verb straight away before you've even learned any ending forms. 

5. Morphology Charts interactive. for working out all those tricky endings. 

6. Long slow practice. I set up reading plans and then aim to translate a verse a day working in manageable chunks for the GNT. EG. John 1:1-21, Galatians 1, The Sermon on the Mount, etc. There is a helpful discussion here (http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1842) that list the books of the GNT by the ease of access.

As to the actual words, terms, etc. (eg. Lemma, root, etc.) I'd suggest that you check out the Bible Greek Study videos by Bill Mounce. Once you've done those, you might want to, pick up his Basics of Biblical Greek set and begin working through it (other introductions are available). 

FWIW, I've tried the MobileEd Greek 101 course but failed to complete it. It assumes that you have a Platinum base package, and if you don't you are unable to progress as some of what it assumes in later videos are taught in the further readings. Which, are inaccessible without Platinum. Not great really since it is marketed as a 101 course.

Finally, some advice from someone only a year ahead of you. I had to drill into my mind along with my vocab that the goal in learning Greek is devotion and faithfulness.

• Devotion in that I am growing in Greek to grow in my relationship with the Lord through his word, not to grow in knowledge to win arguments. Once I've translated my verse/unit and noted any textual/translation observations, I force myself to write some devotional observations, an application, and a couple of lines of prayer-journalling. 
• My goal is to be faithful, not original. If I come up with an obscure translation of a word or verse that none of the major translations use then I assume I am wrong and start again. I never assume that I have discovered some new angle on the verse/word/chapter/book. That way be dragons. 

Any help?

Liam Maguire said:

As to the actual words, terms, etc. (eg. Lemma, root, etc.) I'd suggest that you check out the Bible Greek Study videos by Bill Mounce. Once you've done those, you might want to, pick up his Basics of Biblical Greek set and begin working through it (other introductions are available). 

I would second everything Liam had to say.  As an aside, the Mounce videos are also available as part of this set: Zondervan Biblical Languages Video Lectures (2 vols.).  Personally, I found working through the videos, Mounce's grammar and the associated workbook at the same time very helpful. (The grammar and workbook are both in the Basics of Biblical Greek set.)  Languages don't come easily for me, so I needed all the help I could get.

Robert Neely said:

The way to go is https://www.logos.com/product/49819/mobile-ed-learn-to-use-biblical-greek-and-hebrew-with-logos-6 

These courses teach you to use the tools in Logos to get to those nuggets in the biblical languages without the years of memorizing vocabulary and learning grammar. 

 I also second this recommendation as a starter place in Logos.  

Paul said:

If you have to make your argument based solely on the original language, it probably isn't a very strong one.

+1. This is sage advice... and a helpful reminder. Thank you.

You can make greek/ Hebrew language easy by practicing on a regular basis, by joining a group of language experts online. Vocabulary collection
must be solid for better conversation, so do practice for it. Thank you.

" rel="nofollow">Keep Smiling 4 Jesus said:

Keep Smiling

Very nice post!  It was helpful to me.

Paul said:

...  Having said that, and I say this as a linguist who is more than aware that in any translation meaning is both added and lost...if you have to make your argument based solely on the original language, it probably isn't a very strong one.

That's an interesting point, though large amounts of doctrine turn on a single OL word.  In the denomination I grew up in, we had our greek words down to a science (but didn't know greek).

I've argued a comparison of translations is better than OL .... simply because translations are (usually) from recognized experts .... versus language wanna-be's.  But that said, simply quoting translations is not likely to impress. And may not correctly support ones denomination.  

Hamilton, I'm Spanish and I can assure you the greek and Spanish lexicons and inflections are not related. But in Spanish we have more verbal tenses than in English so that could help to understand greek tenses.

Hamilton, I’ve always told people that learning Greek is like learning Spanish because of the phonetics. You learn the alphabet and that’s all it takes for you to start reading Greek even if you don’t know what the words mean. I do agree with what the book you screenshot says. Aside from that I’m not really a Greek scholar, I just know a little Greek to get in trouble and another little Greek that owns a Gyro’s place where I buy lunch some times 👍😁👌 

By the way, my Greek instructor made me read a lot during class because my Spanish accent helped me pronounce more correctly the Greek sentences I was reading. Most American brethren had throuble rolling their  “R’s.” 

DAL

DAL, you're right on that. For both Greek and Hebrew, Spanish will also help you pronounce pure vowels without the common English glides (i.e., gradually rounding vowels). Spanish will also likely help you use little or less aspiration with some consonants. Finally, I recall that the modern languages also share similarities in their syllable timing. Linguist and translator Randall Buth addresses some of these things in his Living Biblical Hebrew materials. There's information on Wikipedia and elsewhere as well.

For what it‘s worth, as someone currently taking Greek II (obviously already had Greek I) & Hebrew I, I have found it true that Greek tends to get more difficult as you go along (think participles & infinitives 😡!) - while, as Dr. Van Pelt himself said in his class - Hebrew loads you down w. the difficult stuff at the beginning & tends to smooth out as you progress in the language.

The Hebrew vowel pointings, syllabification, plural (propretonic) reductions, etc. takes a while to sink in (well, it did for me at least).  But, there is nothing like when you finally begin to recognize words, forms, etc.  I have my NA27 in the pulpit of the church I pastor & love using it when someone else is preaching to try and follow along w. their selcted text (I do have NA28 & UBS-5 in software).  I had a lay preacher preach for me Sunday and I was able to translate & recognize most of his text right out of the Greek.

As an aside, I will be the odd man out and say that I have not at all been as persuaded by James White’s argumentation (I have actually interacted w. him quite extensively as my blog in my signature line demonstrates).  I do like his work in the discipline of KJVO & text criticism though (I have only had a beginners course in textual criticism).

Hi Beloved:

With respect to your recommendations, are there parallel resources that can be used in the following?:

https://www.logos.com/product/9438/amg-bible-essentials

I ask because the exact title for the first resource is found in Kindle, but not in Logos.

How about:

https://www.logos.com/product/62010/new-testament-words

Puddin’ said:

Adam Olean said:

Adam Olean said:

Hi, Landon. I would seriously consider Biblical Language Center's Live Video Classes. You won't regret it. There's a special discount for a husband and wife (or any other two from the same household) taking classes together. You can also get a discount from former students. Feel free to send me a private message via faithlife.com. (As an aside, I've greatly appreciated and benefited from James White's ministry as well!)

Here are some of my related posts for whatever they're worth:

http://ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?p=30940&sid=3c1251fdcd99dd3a03376cd44492b6a6#p30934 

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/151448/927046.aspx#927046 

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/152646/930616.aspx#930616 

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/76863/929148.aspx#929148 

May God bless you and your wife in your studies! It'd be awesome to learn together.

I still couldn't recommend BLC's Live Video Classes more highly, despite my prior and growing experience with Biblical and Modern Hebrew. I'm just about to take a third semester with them. If they had offered these classes when I started Koine Greek and Biblical Hebrew, I would have begun with them in a heartbeat!

Here's a List of Hebrew Resources that some might find useful. It's a selective, collaborative list that I'm gradually working on with some other advanced students and instructors of both Biblical and Modern Hebrew.

I am currently taking Van Pelt’s Hebrew class.  Love it!  

BTW, Dr. Maury Robertson also offers classes online:  https://greekforeveryone.com/author/admin/

Dr. Robertson’s courses are only $8.00/Mo. and he is always available for difficult spots via either telephone or email.  He ALWAYS responds w.in a day or two (95% of the time it’s the next day).  His course is equivalent to one years worth of university morphology (you get a completion certificate stating so at the end).  He also has Greek II courses for the same amount.  

Good to know! I'm glad to hear those classes are working out so well for you. Even as someone who often prefers studying on my own, I recognize that a good instructor can definitely be a boon. Likewise, with good classmates!

BLC's Live Video Classes are different from most in that 90–95%+ of class time is spent in the target language: listening, speaking, reading, communicating/dialoguing, and playing in the language. The first part of Living Biblical Hebrew includes video-picture lessons, in which you absorb Hebrew as Hebrew (or Greek as Greek), not just learning about a language that you don't actually know or haven't begun internalizing as a second-language. They begin immediately with words, phrases, and full sentences that develop eventually into short stories. The picture lessons transition from watching, listening, and speaking to passively and actively reading, as text is added alongside the pictures and audio. As a translator and linguist with several decades of experience, Buth's materials offer plenty for those who want to sink their teeth into the finer points of grammar and translation—along with so many other aspects of the languages (literary, discourse/text linguistics, phonology, etc.). They prioritize internalizing the language, however, through second-language acquisition techniques and processes. It's a lot of fun too, oftentimes like going back and being a kid again playing in the language!

Adam Olean said:

Puddin’ said:

Adam Olean said:

Adam Olean said:

Hi, Landon. I would seriously consider Biblical Language Center's Live Video Classes. You won't regret it. There's a special discount for a husband and wife (or any other two from the same household) taking classes together. You can also get a discount from former students. Feel free to send me a private message via faithlife.com. (As an aside, I've greatly appreciated and benefited from James White's ministry as well!)

Here are some of my related posts for whatever they're worth:

http://ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?p=30940&sid=3c1251fdcd99dd3a03376cd44492b6a6#p30934 

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/151448/927046.aspx#927046 

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/152646/930616.aspx#930616 

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/76863/929148.aspx#929148 

May God bless you and your wife in your studies! It'd be awesome to learn together.

I still couldn't recommend BLC's Live Video Classes more highly, despite my prior and growing experience with Biblical and Modern Hebrew. I'm just about to take a third semester with them. If they had offered these classes when I started Koine Greek and Biblical Hebrew, I would have begun with them in a heartbeat!

Here's a List of Hebrew Resources that some might find useful. It's a selective, collaborative list that I'm gradually working on with some other advanced students and instructors of both Biblical and Modern Hebrew.

I am currently taking Van Pelt’s Hebrew class.  Love it!  

BTW, Dr. Maury Robertson also offers classes online:  https://greekforeveryone.com/author/admin/

Dr. Robertson’s courses are only $8.00/Mo. and he is always available for difficult spots via either telephone or email.  He ALWAYS responds w.in a day or two (95% of the time it’s the next day).  His course is equivalent to one years worth of university morphology (you get a completion certificate stating so at the end).  He also has Greek II courses for the same amount.  

Good to know! I'm glad to hear those classes are working out so well for you. Even as someone who often prefers studying on my own, I recognize that a good instructor can definitely be a boon. Likewise, with good classmates!

BLC's Live Video Classes are different from most in that 90–95%+ of class time is spent in the target language: listening, speaking, reading, communicating/dialoguing, and playing in the language. The first part of Living Biblical Hebrew includes video-picture lessons, in which you absorb Hebrew as Hebrew (or Greek as Greek), not just learning about a language that you don't actually know or haven't begun internalizing as a second-language. They begin immediately with words, phrases, and full sentences that develop eventually into short stories. The picture lessons transition from watching, listening, and speaking to passively and actively reading, as text is added alongside the pictures and audio. As a translator and linguist with several decades of experience, Buth's materials offer plenty for those who want to sink their teeth into the finer points of grammar and translation—along with so many other aspects of the languages (literary, discourse/text linguistics, phonology, etc.). They prioritize internalizing the language, however, through second-language acquisition techniques and processes. It's a lot of fun too, oftentimes like going back and being a kid again playing in the language!

I have looked into Buth’s courses, but have already made much headway in the courses I have been taking.  My aim is to complete these courses, then probably spring for Buth’s courses to further cement the experience.  I even looked into the immersion courses in Greece & Jerusalem (although they are extremely spendy).  Excellent review above 👍.  Will reread this several times.

Puddin’ said:

Hamilton Ramos said:

Hi Pudding:

You seem to me like someone that can do some innovative studies. So in that line consider the following:

Use some resources that use English grammar to facilitate learning of Koine like the ones in:

https://www.logos.com/products/search?q=English+grammar+for+greek

Then compare to other grammars in different languages to facilitate the understanding of commonalities and differences...

English grammar (base)______  Latin n Spanish grammar comparison to En base______  Koine Greek____ Biblical Hebrew_____ German.

So there could be a chance to see the commonalities of all (if exist), the main differences, and then have some theological considerations within some.

The final objective is to have a reading capability in them languages.

English: largest library available in L8.

Spanish: For those of us that master it, is an easier way to learn Koine Greek.

Koine Greek: NT obviously.

Latin: much of early theology was developed in that language. It is supposed to be a referent for the development of English and Spanish.

Hebrew: Understand Yahweh as one by study of OT theology n prophecy like in Zec 14:9.

German: Many good articles on theology, Biblical studies, etc. are in German and not translated.

The above languages can be put to good use in L8 and aid in research. Problem passages and concepts can then be studied from different angles for  comparison.

Just an idea for you to consider.

Good points.  I esp. like the link you provided above.  However, I do wonder what else those sources would bring to the table since I already have:

Dana & Mantey; Wallace’s GGBB; Mounce’s BBG (both the book and video), Blass, Debrunner, Funk’s Grammar; A.T. Robertson’s Large Grammar & Word Pictures, Grimm-Thayer (I know it’s antiquated), Diesmann’s Grammar; Moulton & Milligan, literally volumes upon volumes of exegetical commentaries (e.g., NICGT), BDAG (& BAGD), HALOT, numerous Hebrew grammars, an entire GNT sentence diagram, two entire HOT (Hebrew OT) trees, NIDNTTE, NIDOTTE, UBS-5, NA28 (&27) w. Critical Apparatus‘s, Classes on Text Criticism, LXX parsed, BHS parsed, BDB Lexicon, NET w. notes, Metzger’s Textual Commentary, Louw-Nida, Wuest, Waltke, UBS OT & NT Handbooks, EDNT, Scrivner’s TR (🙄), Constantine Campbell’s works on verbal aspect and recent Greek Advances in the NT, ALGNT, a Greek professor on monthly pay for when I get stuck....Well, I think you get the picture (have tons more).

So, I guess I am just asking if there is any benefit to continue acquiring grammars, etc.?  The only other work I want right now is the CNTTS (that I keep waiting to drop in price).  I am really excited over what they are doing right now in Muenster, Germany w. CBGM NT apparatus, but it will decades before completion as I understand it.

Thanks much for these suggestions!  

Just bumping this thread hoping for a response to my question above.  I am always on the lookout for more exegetical resources, but, I am beginning to wonder if I am just wasting money at this point.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Landon, since you already do Mobile Ed you should start with the courses for learning the language Mobile Ed produces. You should also acquire Zondervan's courses that teach Greek and Hebrew and the videos you can also acquire. That's four different instructor's (2 Greek, 2 Hebrew) teaching first year grammar which will give you a foundation for greater studies later. Be consistent and help each other. It is possible to learn the languages using the bible software. But it will take time and consistency. Enjoy your studies.

DAL said:

You have plenty. Don’t spend more money 💰 

It would have been easier to just quote DAL and give the [Y]

Quite a number of knowledgeable individuals on this thread! Are the video lectures on Hebrew by Van Pelt more thorough than those of Futato? It was mentioned in another thread that HB101 "only covers less than half the content of the Grammar." I already have Futato's grammar in Logos but not Van Pelt's, and I am trying to decide if I want to use the coupon code from my Logos 8 base package for HB101 or for something else. I do not know which video lecture would be better, and I am also trying to weigh the usefulness of HB101 vs. the "daily dose" available elsewhere that seems to also use Futato. Any advice?

Puddin’ said:

Just my 2 cents.

And a very helpful 2 cents at that! Thank you!