Dishonest Advertising On Verbum 8
Very disappointed in FaithLife here. I'm looking at the Verbum 8 base package - I already have Verbum 7 - and there are many instances like what I've screen shot here with the New Collegeville Bible Commentary. FL is touting "Value if sold separately" in the right hand column and listing $199.99. But they have also noted "Only some resources from this collection are included." So the "value if sold separately" is MOST CERTAINLY NOT $199.99 since you're comparing one small piece that you are getting with the value of the ENTIRE collection. Hardly ethical advertising here. And they are doing this OVER AND OVER with touting all this value for pieces of collections with the value of the ENTIRE collection.
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Patrick, great catch! Something is definitely going on there. I'd need to check further but it looks like they have combined a 2 volume set (one covering the OT and one covering the NT) with an expanded set with multiple volumes that narrow their scope further. I think this is more of a website error. I imagine if you emailed customerservice@faithlife.com they could report this issue to the appropriate personal and help you sort out what they are really offering.
I certainly agree it is misleading and confusing, and is an error that they would want to rectify. Thanks for pointing this out!
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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It's actually worse than 1 of 2 volumes. If you look in greater detail there are actually TWENTY FIVE volumes when you get right down to it. And you're getting ONE of those TWENTY FIVE volumes. So if all 25 are $199.99 is it really even remotely ethical to so much as HINT that what you're getting in this package would be worth ANYTHING CLOSE to $199.99 when you're only getting ONE? And I think FL is going quite a bit further than hinting.
And when I compare the Verbum 8 Starter Upgrade (Books plus Features) to the Verbum 8 Starter Feature Upgrade (just Features) the first with all the book "value" is $73 while just the Features are $76. And every single new feature for $76 is included in the $73 books plus features. So basically FL is charging me $3 LESS to take a BUNCH OF EXTRA BOOKS when many are for all intents and purposes "loss leaders" so you'll hopefully want to finish off all those sets later. It's just very gimmicky. A lot of smoke and mirrors.
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Patrick,
Thanks for sharing your feedback here and apologies for the confusion. It is indeed a website error that you're seeing in the screenshot of your resources relative to Verbum 8 Starter. There is a problem with how the overall collection is displaying versus individual volumes within that collection.
We're looking into a fix for this error. We'll report back to this thread once we've identified the problem and when it will be resolved.
Craig St. Clair | Verbum Product Manager |
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The only reason I bought the verbum 8 Library was for the 2 volume New Collegeville commentary. I will be returning it next week.
-dan
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New Collegeville Bible Commentary (2 vols.) in fact at this point I may just return all my Logos 8 packages.
-dan
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Dan Francis said:
The only reason I bought the verbum 8 Library was for the 2 volume New Collegeville commentary. I will be returning it next week.
-dan
What level did you buy, Dan? It is in Verbum Diamond and up (as the PDP indicates).
Senior Director, Content Products
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Patrick, this website bug has existed for years, at least on Logos.com.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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I bought Verbum Gold Anglican Gold and Standard Diamond but I am returning them all... If they cannot honour a simple thing like including 2 volumes of a two volume set what makes me confident of them honouring the forth coming titles in diamond.. I do see now that it indicates only some but having saw that the package included 2 volumesI naturally assumed 2 volumes of a 2 volume set included them all not 1 volume and and introduction. It's perhaps my fault but it doesn't fill me with confidence. I can take my business elsewhere if they cannot be clear.
-Dan
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Dan Francis said:
I bought Verbum Gold Anglican Gold and Standard Diamond but I am returning them all... If they cannot honour a simple thing like including 2 volumes of a two volume set what makes me confident of them honouring the forth coming titles in diamond.. I do see now that it indicates only some but having saw that the package included 2 volumesI naturally assumed 2 volumes of a 2 volume set included them all not 1 volume and and introduction. It's perhaps my fault but it doesn't fill me with confidence. I can take my business elsewhere if they cannot be clear.
-Dan
Dan,
I'm very sorry. This was an honest mistake in how we display the comparison charts on our product pages. There was no intent to deceive. We are looking into how to correct the issue now (note that it is showing up correctly on logos.com).
Senior Director, Content Products
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I'm very sorry. This was an honest mistake in how we display the comparison charts on our product pages. There as no intent to deceive. We are looking into how to correct the issue now (note that it is showing up correctly on logos.com).
I do understand that but I am not willing to pay $199 to correct it especially when the kindle price for the New Collegeville Bible Commentary: Old Testament is $28.80... I value usability in Verbum but not that much... I do accept that it is an honest mistake, but still left a bad taste and feel like insult to injury the price to rectify that would cost me.
-dan
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Patrick this is present in other base packages too I fear. Not just verbum. Its quite confusing.Patrick,
Thanks for sharing your feedback here and apologies for the confusion. It is indeed a website error that you're seeing in the screenshot of your resources relative to Verbum 8 Starter. There is a problem with how the overall collection is displaying versus individual volumes within that collection.
We're looking into a fix for this error. We'll report back to this thread once we've identified the problem and when it will be resolved.
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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We are looking into how to correct the issue now (note that it is showing up correctly on logos.com).
Oh good! [:)]
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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We appreciate everyone's feedback on this issue. We know that including partial collections has been a source of confusion in our product lists for some time, and we took steps to address this with our Verbum 8 and Logos 8 updates. The good news is that solution exists. If you look at Verbum base packages on Logos, you will see that the problem isn't present on that site. Unfortunately this update was not deployed to the Verbum site at launch. We're working to resolve this as quickly as we can.
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Well, I find the whole idea of these "partial collections" to be an attempt to appeal to the idea of getting a great value. But I firmly believe it is somewhat deceptive in that you can't get a lot of value out of a small portion of a package. (In my example of the New Collegeville Commentary, the 2 volumes aren't really 2 volumes. It's really 25 individual volumes that have been bundled into 2 volumes. So what it appears you get is just a FRACTION of 1 of those 2 volumes, since what is being included is really only ONE of the TWENTY FIVE.) So the real "value" isn't so much to the consumer, it's to FL - because hopefully you'll want to buy the rest of the collection.
My perfect example is the Verbum 8 Starter vs the Verbum 8 Feature upgrade. Both have IDENTICAL features. The Starter has a bunch of extra books - many of them marginal "value" because they are just a small piece of a collection. With dynamic pricing the Feature only Verbum 8 is $76. With dynamic pricing the Starter with books AND features is $73. So basically FL is GIVING ME $3 to take all these partial collections. That tells me how they're really valuing them.
I have no problem with them trying to entice you to buy whole collections by giving away small portions of those collections. But call a spade a spade. Don't tout it as all this "value" you're giving me with all these books that would be SOOOO much $$$$$ bought separately when it's just a sales gimmick to help FL. Period. How much "value" is the Introduction volume to the New Collegeville Commentary when there are 24 more volumes after the Introduction? Exactly how much value would a Bible be (itself just a collection of volumes) if the only part of it I gave you was the book of Genesis?
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Dan Francis said:
what makes me confident of them honouring the forth coming titles in diamond.
This is the only portion of your concerns I can address - you can be confident because they have done so consistently in the past, even when it turned out to be a much bigger deal to do than they expected (one of the Hebrew manuscript subsidiaries ... I've forgotten the details). So why did I step in, when Faithlife is "on top of the issue"? Because you are a valued member of the forum community ... I enjoy reading your posts.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Dan Francis said:
what makes me confident of them honouring the forth coming titles in diamond.
This is the only portion of your concerns I can address - you can be confident because they have done so consistently in the past, even when it turned out to be a much bigger deal to do than they expected (one of the Hebrew manuscript subsidiaries ... I've forgotten the details). So why did I step in, when Faithlife is "on top of the issue"? Because you are a valued member of the forum community ... I enjoy reading your posts.
Ditto.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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MJ. Smith said:Dan Francis said:
what makes me confident of them honouring the forth coming titles in diamond.
This is the only portion of your concerns I can address - you can be confident because they have done so consistently in the past, even when it turned out to be a much bigger deal to do than they expected (one of the Hebrew manuscript subsidiaries ... I've forgotten the details). So why did I step in, when Faithlife is "on top of the issue"? Because you are a valued member of the forum community ... I enjoy reading your posts.
It has been a less than ideal day, I am just feeling like I am worried about the fine print. I know while it was not a major concern for me the promised NIV1984 OT RI took years to materialize. I know that FL tries hard to do their best but this issue rightly or wrongly to ME felt like a misleading offer, when I went to rectify it cost was enough for me to say enough. I don’t want to deal with this. 7 was enough in end I had plenty of resources already.
I do accept that this in the end is my perception and not an intent by FL to deceive. But rather than feeling this way it is just as easy to cancel the updates.
-dan
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Patrick Fleischmann said:
(In my example of the New Collegeville Commentary, the 2 volumes aren't really 2 volumes.
Patrick, I thought I had this all clear. But the more I look at this set, across the web, it seems the way that Collegeville markets the series is quite confusing. I was befuddled. It seems like the OT is broken down into smaller, OT book based "volumes," but perhaps not the larger volumes per book I was assuming. I get (I think) your frustration at feeling like something being sold as a "great deal" and it really seems like a minuscule, almost unhelpful volume (I mean, how helpful is an "introduction" to a set you can't even use as a commentary...) You would hope to at least get a commentary section.
The more I think about it, some of the problem seems to stem, as I said above, from Collegeville's way of marketing. I don't think they were intending to deceive, but it is confusing. And then Verbum together the various ways it has been marketed: I have seen it as "2 Volumes" and "1 Volume" and 25 or 36 (?) volumes. But it SEEMS like they all refer to the same, basic collection of commentaries.
Anyway, I am not with Logos, I'm just a consumer. And I have had my share of frustrations with Verbum/Logos/FaithLife. But, for the most part, I have experienced them over time to make things right and to listen to their customers. Much more than any other company I've ever worked with. I hope this gets sorted out and you find enjoyment with your Verbum resources. It really is a joy to work with.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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I'm very sorry. This was an honest mistake in how we display the comparison charts on our product pages. There was no intent to deceive. We are looking into how to correct the issue now (note that it is showing up correctly on logos.com).
Very humble and transparent answer.
Click-baiting posts that accuse FL or anyone of dishonestly (ie: intent to deceive) without any true awareness of intent are unnecessary. It's not only unfair, it's not the Christian thing to do. Why not just make a simple and gentle inquiry about the issue and give FL an opportunity to make it right. The just, reasonable, and peaceable thing to do would be to simply ask why the discrepancy exists, state one's concern, and ask FL to make it right. It's been my experience that they always do. There's no need for name calling and divisiveness, especially over an honest mistake.
Myke Harbuck
Lead Pastor, www.ByronCity.Church
Adjunct Professor, Georgia Military College0 -
[Y][Y][Y]
“Let us begin, brothers, to serve the Lord God, for up until now we have done little or nothing.” St. Francis of Assisi
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Myke Harbuck said:
I'm very sorry. This was an honest mistake in how we display the comparison charts on our product pages. There was no intent to deceive. We are looking into how to correct the issue now (note that it is showing up correctly on logos.com).
Very humble and transparent answer.
Click-baiting posts that accuse FL or anyone of dishonestly (ie: intent to deceive) without any true awareness of intent are unnecessary....
I get the feeling you criticized the OP's assumptions about FL's motive, while you made assumptions about the OP's motives. Well, done.
Actually, FL has a long history of this type of behavior, whatever the motive.
This morning, I selected Logos sales, much of which the 'sale' and the impressive percent off, was nothing more than I already owned it (dynamic pricing). I'm used to these Logos 'discounts'; no complaints.
Also this morning, was the opposite issue as the OP and Dan. When there's a partial (as they discussed), the new to you often shows a zero price, and therefore, a very low total .... implying the top price is quite exhorbitant ... but not. Again, no complants .... it's just Logos again.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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So ... Not trying to dicount anyone’s thoughts expressed here; all important and to be taken seriously.
This whole thing with the New Collegeville Bible Commentary (Liturgical Press) stems from the way in which it was first put in the Verbum catalog. At the time it was put on pre-pub, which I cannot recall exactly - over a year at least, it was offered in the single-volume New Testament and a series of individual Old Testament volumes. I do not have any details on why the contract was that way with the publisher, but it was.
To be fair, the publisher has always put forward their flagship commentary as individual volumes (by book of the Bible) which include the text of the Bible, commentary, and some study questions for reflection. In addition, they also ”bundle” the commentary into three separate publications that only contain the commentary; an OT volume, a NT volume, and a combined OT/NT volume. That is what they did with the the original Collegeville Bible Commentary and again with the New Collegeville Bible Commentary. You can look at the publisher website. And I have several editions of the old series sitting on my bookshelf that confirm this.
Now ... somewhere along the line it seems that Faithlife attempted to “regularize” the offer of the New Collegeville Bible Commentary as being the two volumes, OT and NT, that is offered by the publisher - but, unfortunately only included the individual OT volumes that were part of the original pre-pub offering. That offering was inclomplete based on what the publisher current has. In hindsite, this may not have been the best approach. Nonetheless, it was what was offered then and included in terms of content - a single NT volume and selected OT books that included questions for reflection.
All this is too bad as the publisher has had the complete commentary in a single volume (OT and NT) for some time in hardcover for $80 USD. Again, this is the updated version of what Faithlife offers today - the Collegeville Bible Commentary - for $49.99 USD. That’s the single OT and NT combined.
I think it would be good if Faithlife reset expectations on the product as it truly is - the single NT volume along with several, individual OT books that have the questions for reflection. It’s not clear the way it is presented today as two volumes because it is not. Also, it seems to me that Faithlife needs to go back to the publisher and try to renegotiate a contract that has the complete New Collegeville Bible Commentary in line with what has been offered in the past. It would help this situation and I’m thinking the publisher would want their most current one-volume offing in Verbum.
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Denise said:
it's just Logos again
I've been around these parts for over 10 years. The one consistency I've seen the last few of those years is, some of the folks most supportive of FL, including power users and MVPs have slowly but steadily become acerbic about the software or company.
This can't bode well for the long-term viability of a company, when their long-time supporters walk away. It is distressing. It also means some of the most helpful, historically, are no longer as active helping in the forums. Read my footer if you aren't sure how big a deal that is.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Deacon Steve said:
I think it would be good if Faithlife reset expectations on the product as it truly is - the single NT volume along with several, individual OT books that have the questions for reflection. It’s not clear the way it is presented today as two volumes because it is not. Also, it seems to me that Faithlife needs to go back to the publisher and try to renegotiate a contract that has the complete New Collegeville Bible Commentary in line with what has been offered in the past. It would help this situation and I’m thinking the publisher would want their most current one-volume offing in Verbum.
[Y]
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Doc B said:
I've been around these parts for over 10 years. The one consistency I've seen the last few of those years is, some of the folks most supportive of FL, including power users and MVPs have slowly but steadily become acerbic about the software or company.
I've been around a bit longer ... although I thought you were on the boards. There is a second way of looking at it: as Logos/Verbum and computers have grown in their text-based capabilities, power-users, MVP, folks most supportive of FL are in a position where griping about how the software doesn't meet their needs has a realistic chance of being able to be implemented ... remember when I was a one-note Pied Piper on lectionaries, notes, workflows, case frames, word nets, Popular Patristic series, graphic organizers ...The only items I have yet to get is the ability to easily bring up a verse in the translation used by the resource and the ability to see the translation/notes/commentary side-by-side in commentaries such as Anchor and Hermenia. In fact, so much has been gained that it is worth a new push: Open letter to Faithlife on overall direction So yes, I am feeling very free to be acerbic (in my laconic way) because I have reason to trust the company ... and recognize they've outmaneuvered most of their competitors.
Doc B said:It also means some of the most helpful, historically, are no longer as active helping in the forums.
Yes, one was driven off early by vitriolic "attack theology". Several quit breathing or having a heart beat which is treated as a resignation for which family deserves sympathy, a couple of health problems, change of job positions ... in the desktop, I can't think of anyone who withdrew due to FL policy or Logos quality ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Doc B said:Denise said:
it's just Logos again
I've been around these parts for over 10 years. The one consistency I've seen the last few of those years is, some of the folks most supportive of FL, including power users and MVPs have slowly but steadily become acerbic about the software or company.
This can't bode well for the long-term viability of a company, when their long-time supporters walk away. It is distressing. It also means some of the most helpful, historically, are no longer as active helping in the forums. Read my footer if you aren't sure how big a deal that is.
I think I might have been acerbic'd. Smiling. In the same 'Sale' they included products not actually for sale, not owned by the company, nor any commitment to ever sell such items. But a great price! Almost as good as A-Company, but not the big 'K'.
I'd hope Logos is the beneficiary of customer churn. But my impression is they go from one program to the next, hoping there'll be a few bites. I notice dear old Noet is in doubt. She may well be joining Libby.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Deacon Steve:
I hadn't intended to pick on New Collegeville Bible Commentary specifically. New Collegeville wasn't really my point. That was just the example I used. Here is another one:
I don't believe "Come and See" has the same issue with different publications of various bundles of the volumes like New Collegeville. There are 15 volumes and FL is touting a value of $224.99 for including JUST ONE. Maybe I'm simply too cynical but I don't believe all the instances of valuing like this is just an honest mistake on FL's part. They are a business and they employ folks for marketing and those folks want to sell things. And "total value if bought separately" is a way for someone in marketing to convince a consumer to buy their product. Bible software or pickup trucks, it doesn't matter. That FL makes a valuable product I don't dispute. I bought Verbum for the first time this year with version 7. I'm simply expressing my disappointment in a marketing tactic that tries to oversell me with a value that isn't there. And that's deceptive advertising, plainly.
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This was my problem I am scrolling looking at things admittedly I have it blown up so i do not see in the window beyond this column (my sight is not the best). I see Expand indicating more than one volume is there.. Since it is a 2 volume set it seems logical to assume receiving two volumes means you get both.... Then I discover there is no volume 2. I search and find that after dropping a small fortune on upgrades that a key resource i wanted is going to cost me a lot more when I purchased a set I believed (mistakenly) that contained it. My request to return my packages was replied to saying there is no purchase associated with this email address (having sent it from the wrong email address). I am still feel it would have been a better thing if it has simply been New Collegeville Bible Commentary: New Testament included.
-dan
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Denise said:Myke Harbuck said:
I'm very sorry. This was an honest mistake in how we display the comparison charts on our product pages. There was no intent to deceive. We are looking into how to correct the issue now (note that it is showing up correctly on logos.com).
Very humble and transparent answer.
Click-baiting posts that accuse FL or anyone of dishonestly (ie: intent to deceive) without any true awareness of intent are unnecessary....
I get the feeling you criticized the OP's assumptions about FL's motive, while you made assumptions about the OP's motives. Well, done.
Actually, FL has a long history of this type of behavior, whatever the motive.
Choice of language in the context of criticising Faithlife has long been an issue on this forum and rightly, or wrongly, tends to polarise opinion quite quickly.
While the OP could have phrased this differently and used "misleading" or "inaccurate" the reaction/response would most likely have been similar.
It is undeniable that that Faithlife has a long history of this type of mistake but it is equally true that my personal experience, over 20 plus years, is that they "make things right". I do find it frustrating that Faithlife the business does seem to make these recurring errors and my personal view is that they do need to prioritise learning from past mistakes rather than continually repeating them.
However, that the OP could have used alternative language does not alter the fact that this issue needed to be highlighted and addressed and I do wonder what response the OP would have received if it was Amazon rather than Faithlife that was characterised as "dishonest".
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