Workflow: what use beyond the basics?

MJ. Smith said:

advanced worksheets where it is unreasonable to expect the Bible student to remember the details of how to accomplish all the tasks.

I'd like to be able to print/export a workflow for this purpose.

Mike Binks said:

As you become proficient with a process you can trim, edit the workflow

It would be nice if the workflows that come with L8 had an edit option so you could modify them and save-as your own custom workflow.

doc said:

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MJ. Smith said:

training work flows for educational purposes

but there is nothing in the workflow that takes the Beginner from using the workflow and graduates them to using the  Passage Guide on it's own without the need for a the workflow that I could see.

Hello Doc:

I  am someone who believes that workflow is the very best addition to Logos, and I fall under the category of an advanced beginner.  Here is how I envision this, but please understand that I'm only responding to your statement above regarding workflow, as I believe it has potential to be a tool that advanced users will likewise find invaluable (if not only from the perspective of saving time).

What the workflow templates do is guide the absolute beginner so they can immediately use the program and expose them to resources and tools they would not know about otherwise.  It eliminates the frustration of trying to figure out HOW to do something in the program and allows them to simply enjoy their time in the Word.  However, while using the workflow template, they are brought to other tools and resources simply by clicking around.  If or when they find themselves over their head, they can come back to workflow and move on.  However, by then they have already been exposed to new tools outside of the workflow panel, and for many it will whet their appetite to try out a new tool. 

I am not computer savvy at all, but when I was in the inductive Bible study workflow, I clicked around at bit and after a little while, decided that as an inductive Bible study teacher, I would like my own Inductive workflow to be set up differently.  Without even looking at a video or how to guide, I was immediately able to start building my own workflow, which will take a while but that's okay as I plan on sharing it with my class students because, for the very first time ever, I feel I can actually recommend Logos to them.

Now, as a student or user is in workflow and exposed to various resources and tool, they will undoubtedly notice various other tools and guides which they will certainly, at first, use in its boilerplate form but with the glaring "ADD" button there, will look to create their own.  However, I believe it all starts with workflow--something that allows the beginner to click around safely to become exposed to the program but come back to in order to learn more.

And the beauty of workflow is that it CAN become so much more.  I see so much potential for it, and I'm not even computer savvy.

I hope that helps you see it a little bit through the eyes of someone who practically thew in the towel on the program and now sees it as something even MORE powerful for the seasoned user and something that will teach and excite the brand new beginner.

Denise said:

I can opine without ever seeing it!

FL'ers used that vocabulary for a long time ... I really wondered where it came from. My Dad was a preacher. He had a 'workflow' but his face would crinkle up and grimace at the word and the concept. Studying and preparing was his worship and his favorite time. There was no work, and no flow.

That said, when I read about it, I immediately thought of Cynthia and her enthusiasm. And MJ trying to lead Logos down the path of teaching, and integration.  So, my guesses might be right.

But can FL climb out of corporate group think, and into the Sanctuary?

Hello Denise!

I love reading your posts!  They always crack me up...and keep me on my toes.

Yesterday I was teaching the book of Ephesians, Chapter 4.  Something that struck me in verses 15-16 is that when speaking of the body of Christ growing up, the Church is to grow by "being fitted and held together by that which every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love."

It was the first time I ever really paid attention to that word held. So in layman's terms, it means that when every individual works out their gift, they are joined together (fitted or framed together) and unified (held or joined together as a whole) which causes spiritual growth for the purpose of strengthening itself in love. 

In my early Christian years, I wondered why everyone was not as passionate as me concerning equipping the Saints in the Word. It seemed so paramount to me.  Yet others felt it was more important to feed them, and others felt it was to pray for them...  I have come to understand that we need individuals like me, and we need individual like MJ, and when we all supply the body with the proper working of our individual part, that's when the magic happens!

All that to say...

I love that your post pegged me spot on, and I love that you pegged MJ's passion too.  But now, for the first time since I've been on this forum (and that's a reflection of me, not you), I understand a little bit of the heart in your "individual part" and what that joint supplies, and it's rather beautiful.

Francis said:

While from the standpoint of my own personal needs, I cannot see that I will have substantial use for workflows in the near future

You have done the hard work, already, I surmise, in developing your own work flow.  For me, Workflow is, as you suggest, going to be a big step forward, as the rig suggests avenues of exploration: click this.

GregW said:

  I also appreciate that not all of us want to prepare our preaching in a highly-structured way. For me, bringing structure to my approach is part of my worship. For others, different approaches are part of theirs.  

I love that... thanks Greg!

Tim Hensler said:

It would be nice if the workflows that come with L8 had an edit option so you could modify them and save-as your own custom workflow.

As a preacher who thrives on structure, I'm pretty enthusiastic about the workflows and their potential.  Sometimes the sermon-preparation process can feel overwhelming and it's great to be able to break it down step by step.

I'm looking forward to being able to combine the Expository Sermon Workflow with the Exegetical Passage workflow and the notes-based workflow that I have already been using for some time!

Is there a location where we can download other's uniquely designed workflows? For example, I would love to find one that follows the twelve step process detailed in DeRouchie/Naselli.

JH said:

Is there a location where we can download other's uniquely designed workflows? For example, I would love to find one that follows the twelve step process detailed in DeRouchie/Naselli.

JH, there should be a button at the bottom of the Guides menu to find other Workflows (I cant check because my PC if off right now!). 

At least, theres something like it somewhere! 

MJ. Smith said:

but most are not ready for prime time until the editor is beefed up a bit in what it can access.

I am not sure what you mean here.  Would you mind expanding this a little?  Thank you.

MJ. Smith said:

However, it is not complete nor does it include items such as the Timeline or some Interactives (think Psalms specifically).

The other items I need are (a) a date as the basic identifier and (b) multiple passages.

MJ. Smith said:

This list of options to which one can link in a workflow has been growing behind the scene:

Thanks, MJ.

FWIW, I won't use the defined Workflows, as I already have my own way of working. But as soon as I get the time, I'm going to invest in creating my own custom Workflow. I believe doing so will:

• Add discipline to my sermon preparation
• Remind me of important steps when tackling difficult genres or passages
• Speed up my study by giving me shortcuts to commonly performed operations
• Keep a record of my preparation and not just the final outcome

Ideally, I'd like far more customisation options than currently available, but what we have is certainly better than nothing — and the step-by-step process will work much better for me than custom guides which is what I've been using up until now.

I understand what you are saying Mike but there is nothing to lead a user from relying on the workflow to stepping away from it and using the passage guide, word study guide. There is nothing that even tells them they can  find this information on their own using the guides. There is a missing link.

Mike Binks said:

Hi Doc

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doc said:

I haven't had the time to look at all of the workflows as yet, but...

Nor me but...

I see the Workflow facility as an aide memoir to processes rather than a training aid in those processes.

As you become proficient with a process you can trim, edit the workflow of dispense with it altogether.

For processes that you only do infrequently an aide memoir can be very useful even when proficient with the software.

MJ I know at times it might not seem like it because we do sometimes have very different views on some things but I do respect your experience and commitment to teaching and equipping others. And FWIW I think more often than not FL should take on board and action your feedback more than they do. Thanks for fuether explaining your thoughts.

MJ. Smith said:

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doc said:

You might be thinking about this differently to what I am MJ

Most of my thinking is biased by (a) 50 years in a university parish (b) an advanced degree in religious studies (c) an assumption that what Logos provides for Evangelicals will be of little use to myself as a Catholic. In testing, I've already made more workflows than Logos ... but most are not ready for prime time until the editor is beefed up a bit in what it can access.

doc said:

Cynthia just to add in case I gave you or anyone else the impression I was against the workflows, the concept is actually not anything new to Logos. I beta tested the same sort of thing in Libronix and advocated for them but Logos walked away from them until now.

Good Morning Doc!  You're up early!

I think perhaps we are both being misunderstood.  I don't think that workflow is the "end-all-be-all" to solve the problem of Bible illiteracy! I think workflow is hands down, the very best step I've seen Logos take in assisting the new user to not only get their feet wet in the program but also whet their appetite for studying God's Word. 

I feel like you're jumping the gun a little bit in saying that workflow does nothing to guide the user away from using them. (and that's implying that workflow is a crutch tool for only the new user).  I disagree for my reasons stated a few posts back, but I also believe that because FL has stated that they are working on adding to workflow, and because people on the board or individuals like MJ and dare I even say--me--will be sharing workflows, the potential is great.  I see workflow as the instrument to lead the user in study very much like I see myself as the instrument to lead my students in their study.  My goal is not to have them in my class forever.  My goal is to teach them, step by step, and push them until they can do it on their own and even teach another.  Workflow, in my view, has the potential to be the teacher in a powerful program that in the past left the student alone in the classroom with very little direction.

And here's the thing.  Workflow is ONE tool in this program.  Do you really think a new user is going to spend their hard earned money and ONLY click on workflow and nothing else.  No!  Workflow will be their teacher and show them how to use the tools so that they rely on the teacher less and less.  

And I might add this too.  I don't NEED workflow.  Many power users on here don't NEED workflow.  Yet I believe workflow will be a tool that is simple enough for the new user but powerful enough for the seasoned, power user.  It may not be right now, but I know that as FL continues to build on the potential of workflow, we will see that happen.

So, I'm off to Jamaica for my friend's 50th birthday party.  I wish you all a great weekend!

P.S.  Mark, I did see those videos and I agree...it is the very first time that FL has created a tool in their program that actually TEACHES the user how to study.  It's very exciting!

Sean Boisen said:

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doc said:

<snip />

All I am saying is the workflows give no direction as to how they can take their study to the next level.

<snip />

One feature of Workflows that's easily overlooked is the additional content hiding behind the "More >>" link. Depending on the editorial content for the Workflow step, you may there find:

• Desired Outcomes: what benefits will I get from this study step?
• Further Reading: additional background content related to the step
• Explanation: more on the mechanics of the particular step

Not all steps have this additional content. We put it behind "More >>" to keep the interface from being cluttered, and because you may have less need for keeping these aids visible as you use a Workflow more.

The Further Reading section in particular is intended to help users broaden their understanding and improve their study.

thank you Sean for the explanation as to why you set it the way you did.  Very helpful. 

Cynthia in Florida said:

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doc said:

Cynthia just to add in case I gave you or anyone else the impression I was against the workflows, the concept is actually not anything new to Logos. I beta tested the same sort of thing in Libronix and advocated for them but Logos walked away from them until now.

Good Morning Doc!  You're up early!

I think perhaps we are both being misunderstood.  I don't think that workflow is the "end-all-be-all" to solve the problem of Bible illiteracy! I think workflow is hands down, the very best step I've seen Logos take in assisting the new user to not only get their feet wet in the program but also whet their appetite for studying God's Word. 

I feel like you're jumping the gun a little bit in saying that workflow does nothing to guide the user away from using them. (and that's implying that workflow is a crutch tool for only the new user).  I disagree for my reasons stated a few posts back, but I also believe that because FL has stated that they are working on adding to workflow, and because people on the board or individuals like MJ and dare I even say--me--will be sharing workflows, the potential is great.  I see workflow as the instrument to lead the user in study very much like I see myself as the instrument to lead my students in their study.  My goal is not to have them in my class forever.  My goal is to teach them, step by step, and push them until they can do it on their own and even teach another.  Workflow, in my view, has the potential to be the teacher in a powerful program that in the past left the student alone in the classroom with very little direction.

And here's the thing.  Workflow is ONE tool in this program.  Do you really think a new user is going to spend their hard earned money and ONLY click on workflow and nothing else.  No!  Workflow will be their teacher and show them how to use the tools so that they rely on the teacher less and less.  

And I might add this too.  I don't NEED workflow.  Many power users on here don't NEED workflow.  Yet I believe workflow will be a tool that is simple enough for the new user but powerful enough for the seasoned, power user.  It may not be right now, but I know that as FL continues to build on the potential of workflow, we will see that happen.

So, I'm off to Jamaica for my friend's 50th birthday party.  I wish you all a great weekend!

P.S.  Mark, I did see those videos and I agree...it is the very first time that FL has created a tool in their program that actually TEACHES the user how to study.  It's very exciting!

Good morning Cynthia, I up early probably because I'm in a different time zone as I'm in Australia.  I think we both want the same thing, but a just coming from very different starting points.  As I said to Sean I just want to see people move beyond being fed the fish to knowing how to fish for themselves and I'm probably too passionate about that and what it all to happen yesterday.  I want it easy for people to start with the program but I want the program to not just grow with them but play a part in growing them in their bible study methodology.  People like you and MJ play an important practical part in that too with face to face, and other methods of interaction.

Enjoy the Birthday celebrations in Jamaica with your friend for their special milestone.

Graham Criddle said:

Hi doc

One of the steps in the sermon prep workflow (I think, I’m doing this from memory!) is comparing the text being studied in different translations usng the Text Comparison Tool.

So the person running the workflow may see the value of this particular Tool and so be encouraged to use it for themselves on other occasions,

Is this the sort of thing you are calling for?

If so, does it just need to be made more explicit or is something else needed?

Graham

In this specific instance it does highlight a specific tool but that is because it is a tool that limited in focus to one task, comparing bible versions which is a step in other workflows too such as Basic Bible Study, but most of the other steps in Basic Bible Study, as an example pull into the workflow sections of the passage guide without a new users being aware that all of these sections they are using in each step all actually come from the passage guide.

Workflows are almost there but just seem to not take that last step in introducing a user to the full power of the software. Some user will park themselves with Workflows as their go to methodology for using the program and that's fine, if it gets them into studying the scriptures but others will want to deep diver into the software but the workflow doesn't quite show them where the deep waters are that they can dive into.

Alan Palmer (Faithlife) said:

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doc said:

These is all good stuff Sean and a step in the right direction but I don't see the workflows actually showing the user that the passage guide, or word study guide etc are actually behind the guides.  The workflows are a big step in the right direction, don't take my comments to mean otherwise, I'm just throwing out the challenge of how can you move beyond feeding a person fish  to them actually being able to fish for themselves.

I like how you're thinking, doc. Specifically, we agree that workflows have a potential to introduce users to new sections they didn't know existed and to show them the value therein.

You're right that the workflows we have authored so far don't explicitly mention that these sections comes from guides. Our current attempt at this is the "Open this content in a new panel" button on the top right of the section in the workflow. This button will launch the single section guide. This approach may be too subtle and we might adjust the approach as we go.

All this conversation with DOC and I didn’t understand THAT was his concern!  And that’s why I’m much better in the classroom! LOL. Thanks Alan for flushing that out, and it IS exciting to see that FL is working hard at growing the workflow tool.  My concern is—specifically now that I’ve had an entire weekend away from the board and I see all the Workflow suggestions on the forum— that workflow will become another tool that becomes so complicated, the new user will be forgotten.  Please keep that in mind as you morp the tool. 

Lane McKay said:

In this snippet you say,

Our current attempt at this is the "Open this content in a new panel" button on the top right of the section in the workflow. This button will launch the single section guide. 

I'm looking in each of the sections and don't see what you are referencing? 

Can you help?

I think Alan was referring to this...

Found it.

Thank you to both of you.

Cynthia in Florida said:

That DEFINITELY needs to be more obvious!

Maybe a simple label? 

"Open Literary Typing Guide" or something like that.