Logos Is Too Expensive
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Cynthia in Florida said:
I like to edit my pictures, but I'm not a professional and I don't need my pictures for any other reason than personal use. So, when I looked at purchasing a picture editing program, I chose the inexpensive Adobe Photoshop. It was a whopping 79.00 and did more than I needed, so when it came time for upgrades, I dropped it and went to the free Picasa, which does everything I need.
A distinction is that your pictures can be used by any program. Fortunately, you're not locked in and don't need to go out and take new pictures, when you changed picture editing programs.
Unfortunately the Logos version of a book can only be used by Logos, the Olive Tree version of a book can only be used by Olive Tree, and so on. Anyone who buys the Cadillac of Bible Study programs (or wanted to upgrade to Logos) would need to buy the same books a second time if they wanted to switch to a (better or) cheaper or free program.
Do I wish the Logos resources were cheaper? Sure! It is a little painful to see that I could get the same commentary set for much less on a different bible study platform. I suppose ignorance is bliss, but I use Logos far more than I used Olive Tree, because it's a better experience.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Cynthia, I agree on your logic visa viz software. And certainly, Olivetree (Hyundai!) is who I recommend for good pricing, decent selection, and a great app (Bible class-ers almost always a tablet).
Where the problem in the pizza example, and the Hyundai example, is 'the books'. Once you commit, the book format discourages switching. Folks on this forum don't like complainers, telling them to switch .... as if it's a real choice. True, at the start, for goodness sakes, don't buy Logos. But after you're locked in, pricing is a valid question. I think.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:PetahChristian said:
Perhaps you rely on tagging more than you know, and the value of tagging lets the program accomplish a great deal that wouldn't as easily or quickly be possible otherwise?
Petah, you have a bad habit of second-guessing suspiciously intelligent people. I think I'm pretty sure I use little tagging, since my Logos rarely gets used. I read.
When you mentioned buying Logos resources (and subsiding tagging), I assumed you actually used Logos but didn't see the value of tags. My fault!
You're right, Denise, Logos (and its tagged books) would be very expensive, if someone just wanted to read (or do text searches, which other ebook readers can do)!
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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PetahChristian said:Cynthia in Florida said:
I like to edit my pictures, but I'm not a professional and I don't need my pictures for any other reason than personal use. So, when I looked at purchasing a picture editing program, I chose the inexpensive Adobe Photoshop. It was a whopping 79.00 and did more than I needed, so when it came time for upgrades, I dropped it and went to the free Picasa, which does everything I need.
Unfortunately the Logos version of a book can only be used by Logos, the Olive Tree version of a book can only be used by Olive Tree, and so on. Anyone who buys the Cadillac of Bible Study programs (or wanted to upgrade to Logos) would need to buy the same books a second time if they wanted to switch to a (better or) cheaper or free program.
Hello Petah:
Very true...but that's true of ALL of the Bible study software programs, so we can't just pick on Logos, right?
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Denise said:
Cynthia, I agree on your logic visa viz software. And certainly, Olivetree (Hyundai!) is who I recommend for good pricing, decent selection, and a great app (Bible class-ers almost always a tablet).
Where the problem in the pizza example, and the Hyundai example, is 'the books'. Once you commit, the book format discourages switching. Folks on this forum don't like complainers, telling them to switch .... as if it's a real choice. True, at the start, for goodness sakes, don't buy Logos. But after you're locked in, pricing is a valid question. I think.
Thanks for your response, Denise. I agree with everything you said.
But continuing with the Cadillac example, if I purchase a Cadillac over a Hyundai, I expect to pay for premium gas, higher priced upkeep to keep it running like a Cadillac, and expect repairs to be much more than a Hyundai, no? Also, I don't expect my Cadillac parts to work on a Hyundai or Hyundai parts to work in a Cadillac, right?
No, I'm locked into a Cadillac, and I don't blame anyone else for my decision to purchase it or having to pay for upkeep or how expensive it is to repair it. I purchased a Cadillac, plain and simple, because I want(ed) the benefits and quality of a Cadillac. If I changed my mind, I don't blame Cadillac. I either sell it (which I understand you can do with Logos) and purchase something else, or I CHOOSE to maintain it by investing as much money into it as I believe I need or want to in order to keep it running as I want/need. Also, as I stated to Petah, we can't really fault Logos that the resources are not interchangeable, right? That's true for all of the programs. Also, isn't that the way it is when we buy a book elsewhere, we buy it through Kindle or Ibooks or Nook based off of which we prefer. Those aren't interchangeable either!
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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I guess if indeed you visited the Cadallac dealership, then you signed on to a Cadallac. Though selling your Logos Cadallac might be a serious financial drain.
In my case, I bought a Logos Hyundai ... my package was $300 and change. No 'starter', it had the good stuff. Then I kept adding books. All the while, the Logos dealership kept jacking up prices for the Cadallac crowd! Whoa there, Betsy.
You'd say, sell my books because new books at Logos are over-priced? Or just stop buying over-priced books! And indeed, I have 3 versions of the Kindle Paperwhite. The Cadallac folks will have to pay more, absent my subsidies. Joking.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise: I hear you my friend! I truly do. [:)] I was just trying to show that this is how it is in the real world, no? And, I also hear that selling the Logos Cadillac might be a serious financial drain, but you know that we never get what we paid for it, from the moment we drive it off the lot. That's the risk we take in life, and the decision of when or if to bail out and sell our used Cadillac can be gut-wrenching. However, I would think that like a Cadillac, Logos would retain a higher resale value than its "Hyundai" competitors since it offers more with its "luxury" platform than the several other companies that are more similar in its "Hyundai" platform.
I think my personal frustration over this topic (and not with you, I'm speaking generally here) is that in some complaints, there is a nudge to make us feel bad that we have spent "all this money" on the program and their prices keep going up, and ....yada yada yada. No one forced me to purchase ANY of the resources I own. NO ONE. I put in my credit card number and I hit the purchase buttons. If I spend too much, I don't blame Logos or customers or developers or publishers, or even Bob. I blame myself!
As always Denise, I enjoy chatting with you and hearing your thoughts. You keep me thinking, let me tell you! [:)]
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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In the final analysis, are you going to be asked what you paid for Logos or what you did with it?
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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mab said:
In the final analysis, are you going to be asked what you paid for Logos or what you did with it?
Is there a "Like" button?
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Denise said:
And indeed, I have 3 versions of the Kindle Paperwhite.
Sadly, I have 3 iPhones and 2 iPads. [:'(] I figure it costs me between $2,500-$3,000/year to make iOS apps, which is more than I've spent on Logos.
When you add up all the costs an independent software developer can incur for hardware, software, conferences, books, artwork, language translation services, Logos is cheap in comparison.
I'd rather give away apps and let them be a blessing to others, but I actually can't afford to, anymore. The reality is that Logos has been expensive for me, and I've had to start charging for apps that used to be free, to be able to get some additional income to help pay for libraries. [:$]
Still, I am very, very thankful for Logos. It has provided me opportunities to learn in ways I never expected.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Cynthia in Florida said:
That being said, I guess I would end with my final question in my previous post. If there are other companies that offer untagged resources at better prices, and that is all that is needed by a specific user, then why not just go with that company and let Logos do what they do best? Please indulge me in an example.
Cynthia,
I am with you in most cases I don't need the tagging as such in most resources.
I have been with Logos for many years and I came to them as a "reluctant" customer mainly because of their cost. I was quite content with the other software packages. I am at the point in the past year where I purchased some resources in OT as these weren't available in Logos and still aren't and there were a couple that were significantly cheaper. I look at these are mainly resources that I would read like those on my Kindle. It is a mild frustration to have some resources in one app and some in another app.
If it is a book that I mainly want to read, I'll take the lower priced Kindle, especially when on sale. But if I want it for some referencing ability I'll get it in Logos if available. I understand the pricing issues for a company like Logos and they have a significant amount of my monies over the years. It is kind of like having two cars. I have my Cadillac and keep it up by adding to it but I also have my Hyundai for other purposes. It is the American way; have two cars, have two Bible Study tools.
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Cynthia in Florida said:mab said:
In the final analysis, are you going to be asked what you paid for Logos or what you did with it?
Is there a "Like" button?
Thanks [Y]
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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Great answer [Y]
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Cynthia in Florida said:
DAL: As usual, you find a way to disagree.
First, you are entitled to your opinion.
Second, don't flatter yourself so much as to think your opinion "burst my bubble."
Third, who are you to tell me I'm blindly refusing to see the truth? What arrogance!
Fourth, my days of trying to hold a conversation with you are over, because your responses are, for the most part, irrational, inflammatory, and arrogant!
Fifth, and finally, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. So, rather than driving myself insane with trying to hold a rational conversation with an irrational person, I am choosing, for the first time on these boards, to just "shake off the dust" and ignore a poster.
Moving on...
LOL I like you Cynthia, but seems like you ate melodramatic salad while I was gone.
First, I don't always disagree.
Second, sorry to burst your bubble again, but your Cadilla vs Hyundai illustration is not a good one either. Cadillac doesn't sell unfinished cars that will get finished later (as Logos has admitted many times in the past - feels almost like we're paying to beta test everything - which is fine, I don't mind).
Third, I tell you you're blind because you are, that doesn't mean I'm arrogant, that means I'm telling you the truth. If you wanna go and use the "don't judge card" then you have serious interpretation issues. There's an issue with improperly tagged resources that keeps getting bigger every time, and if you want to ignore that for whatever reason, then you're blinding yourself to something everybody else is seeing (even Denise), except you..:-)
Fourth, since when have you and I have had conversations...never! You comment here, I comment here, everybody else comments here, that's what everybody does, they're not actual conversations - sorry to burst your bubble again.
Fifth, come on, you take things to serious and personal. No need to go insane, why? what would be the point?
If you actually read my posts and were rational about it, then you would find out that I'm not against Logos entirely. After all, it's my main software and I've invested a lot on it. My main point is the SOME, NOT ALL resources are way overpriced and even some MVP's have agreed to that (read the entire thread again), because it's true. The tagging issue is not a valid one because they don't get properly tagged to begin with.
So...yeah, chill, you worry too much and take things too personal. That's not healthy. Have fun and enjoy the ride. Don't worry, I'll dismiss your inflammatory post as you having an off day. No hard feelings...;-) I love you!
Moving on...
DAL
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My problem with the cost is that I could get a book provided through Logos much cheaper through Kindle, but the Kindle version is harder to navigate. I could get a hard copy version for the price Logos offers books at.
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Danny Jackson Jr. said:
I could get a hard copy version for the price Logos offers books at.
Yes, many times this is true... but -
Imagine having over 7,000 hard copy of books on your library shelf at home. And now you want to do a study on a topic. You will have to manually pull books (and this even assumes you know which books have something to say about that topic), open them up to the various places that address your topic, then pin the book down while you type copy the material you want (and then correct your typos), and then repeat the process with the next book. Who has that kind of time? I guess if you are Dr. Strange, you can do this with no problems, but for us mere mortals without extraordinary gifts, it is SO much easier to type in the topic, and let the software search all the books that have something to say about your topic, and then pull a screen up that allows you to read a quick preview of the find and if you choose, click on the resource and jump right to the find. Then you can copy and paste, and wa la, you have your copy (with citation!). Like having the Flash working as your personal assistant.
That is why I continue to invest in Logos and not hard copies. In fact, I have slowly pursued getting copies in Logos that I actually do own in physical form for this very reason.
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Danny Jackson Jr. said:
My problem with the cost is that I could get a book provided through Logos much cheaper through Kindle, but the Kindle version is harder to navigate
Try performing the study Michael outlined with Kindle books. Logos is expensive—if you have no use for a book except to read it. For serious study, you need tools like those in Logos.
I know that—in the past—gifted people completed even more complex studies without electronic assistance, but few os us mere mortals have the abilities and patience of someone like A. T. Robertson [:P]
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Danny Jackson Jr. said:
My problem with the cost is that I could get a book provided through Logos much cheaper through Kindle, but the Kindle version is harder to navigate. I could get a hard copy version for the price Logos offers books at.
We are forgetting our manners. Welcome to the forums Danny. [:)]
You are entitled to your opinion. As for me, I have an extensive library in Logos well over 14,000 books. I also have an extensive Kindle library some 1,500 books most of which I read for pleasure. I have a dwindling hard copy library some 300 books. I spend most of my time researching and doing devotions in Logos. As has been said you cannot duplicate the researching power Logos has compared to either Kindle or hard copy. I intend to add to all three categories of resources I own. But, I buy more Logos books and to a lesser extent Kindle books than hard copy. I buy hard copy when the resource is unavailable in the other formats.
Peace
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
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AMEN!
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AMEN brother!
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Is it Easter? Lots of old threads are resurrected today lol
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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[Y][:D]Wild Eagle said:Lots of old threads are resurrected today lol
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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While I have no doubt valid points were made (I did not review the thread) this is addressing a very different time. Faithlife now offers its free basic packages now as well as $100 fundamental packages to enter. Logos will always remain too expensive for people who want everything free, it remains a good value for most who want to use current tools to study the Bible.
-dan
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I'm afraid I don't get on the forums very often anymore because I work materially and minister in a church, but as has been stated this is not the first (or the last, I imagine) time this has come up on the forums. I agree that each of us must make decisions as to what we want to get for our purchase. I have spent a lot of money with Logos and I admit I don't use the software nearly as efficiently as I could for lack of time, but I also have to take into account the things I must confront. A quick sampling of the questions I have gotten from young and old or had to teach/preach on in the last few years includes:
Chuch History, Canon, Persian history, biblical interpretation, American history, European history, Hebrew, Greek, inter-testamental period, Roman history, Jewish history, etc.
I need a sizeable library to be able to research/answer these and other questions. For that reason alone I think Logos is worth it.
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There are many things in this world that each of money for, but the use of our money for the study of Word of God is the best or one of the best uses of our money.
L4 BS, L5 RB & Gold, L6 S & R Platinum, L7 Platinum, L8 Baptist Platinum, L9 Baptist Platinum, L10 Baptist Silver
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In addition to being a pastor, I am also an attorney. I often pay $100-$300 for books because of the value they bring to my profession. Logos is somewhat like that. It is for those who are professionals. Unfortunately, it is not for all. But fortunately for those who are professionals, or for those who can afford it, it brings great value to their teaching, preaching, and research capabilities.
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I agree. The new merger with Wordsearch forced me back to try the free Logos they offered. They haven't transferred part of my library. The use of logos is far less user friendly than Wordsearch. And I can't write my sermon on the program unless I want to pay way too much.
Not only is cost too much but including at least a basic writing program within the document and not merely a verse note should be standard and not part of a higher package, or they should have allowed incoming customers with Wordsearch to come in at the silver level.
It's all about the money. Aquiring Wordsearch is a business move to take out competitive program without improving or offering better cost at all.
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Daniel Shipton said:
They haven't transferred part of my library.
Not everything is happening at once and many resources haven't been yet converted to Logos.
Daniel Shipton said:they should have allowed incoming customers with Wordsearch to come in at the silver level.
Why should you get free resources you haven't paid for? Do you mean something about feature sets instead?
Daniel Shipton said:It's all about the money.
Well no... and yes. Faithlife is a business which partners with the Church to provide access to bible study materials. It IS about the money in a sense because it costs money to create software. Lifeway hasn't done a great job of staying in business... they had to close all of their stores! Now they are closing down Wordsearch. It is much better for Wordsearch users that FL purchased the business than for it to go belly up altogether.
Daniel Shipton said:at least a basic writing program within the document
I am not quite sure what Wordsearch had and how it compares to what FL offers. Can you explain specifically what you are trying to do?
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That's funny, I think Logos is WAY more user friendly than WordSearch ever was.Daniel Shipton said:The use of logos is far less user friendly than Wordsearch
Let's be fair, the Notes Tool is much more than a "verse note" editor. If you wanted to, you could write a full fledged sermon in that tool.Daniel Shipton said:Not only is cost too much but including at least a basic writing program within the document and not merely a verse note should be standard and not part of a higher package.
Daniel Shipton said:or they should have allowed incoming customers with Wordsearch to come in at the silver level.
Why should they have done this? That makes no sense at all. What if a WordSearch user had the free WS version and a few books. Why should they have automatically gotten a silver package in Logos when the rest of us had to pay for it? They are getting all of their WS resources...and you can still use WS for the time being.
Daniel Shipton said:It's all about the money. Aquiring Wordsearch is a business move to take out competitive program without improving or offering better cost at all.
I can tell you, having been a Logos user (and WS, and Accordance) for years, I have gotten to know much of the staff, including executive staff, and I know that this is not true at all. Money is important, you cannot make good software without capital. It just can't be done. However, to say it is all about money? No.
One of the biggest reasons, from what I can see, for the acquisition is to be able to offer resources Logos users have been crying for years to have in their libraries in a world-class software instead of, in my opinion, a much inferior software separately.
Also, let's be honest, it is no secret that Lifeway is not doing well having just closed all of their brick and mortar stores. This was going to happen sooner or later and I am glad it was Faithlife.
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