Logos Is Too Expensive

DAL said:

Cynthia in Florida said:

alabama24 said:

James DeJong said:

A particular book costs $14 in the Logos store, but costs $8 in the Olive Tree Software and $8 as an ebook in Christian Book Distributors.  Same ebook in all three stores, yet Logos is almost double the cost.  It has definitely become a for profit business instead of a ministry.

When you go to a restaurant, you don't just pay for the two slices of bread, tomato, bacon, lettuce & mayo... you are paying for them to prepare it and keep the lights on.

Alabama!  FANTASTIC ILLUSTRATION!

Actually, that's a bad illustration because you don't pay $30 bucks for a slice of pizza just because the restaurant prepared it and wants to pay the bills. In fact, I pay $5 bucks plus tax and it includes a drink too. So don't get all excited and go blind refusing to see the truth that's right in front of your face which is: FL jacks the price up TOO much on some of their resources. Sorry to burst your bubble 😜

DAL

DAL:  As usual, you find a way to disagree.

First, you are entitled to your opinion.

Second, don't flatter yourself so much as to think your opinion "burst my bubble."

Third, who are you to tell me I'm blindly refusing to see the truth? What arrogance! 

Fourth, my days of trying to hold a conversation with you are over, because your responses are, for the most part, irrational, inflammatory, and arrogant!

Fifth, and finally, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result.  So, rather than driving myself insane with trying to hold a rational conversation with an irrational person, I am choosing, for the first time on these boards, to just "shake off the dust" and ignore a poster. 

Moving on...

I'm not sure all the pizza arguments float, though I'm in general agreement.

1. Paying for Logos books was financing Proclaim. The theory being that Proclaim would pay out, and finance Faithlife's next idea. The books always finance Bob's dreams. As in any business.

2. If Logos offerred 2 versions of each book, and set the price of untagged versions relative to Olive Tree, I'd bet the tagged versions would die a slow horrible death, except for key types (lexicons, commentaries .. the stuff you see in pastors' offices).

3. Once you commit to a Bible software platform, you commit. Honesty with early purchasers is paramount, presuming honesty is desirable. As Matthew noted, dumping Logos is cents on the dollar.  But folks try to portray Logos as quite affordable.  Don't think so.

Denise said:

2. If Logos offerred 2 versions of each book, and set the price of untagged versions relative to Olive Tree, I'd bet the tagged versions would die a slow horrible death, except for key types (lexicons, commentaries .. the stuff you see in pastors' offices).

Hello Denise (and others in this conversation about offering tagged/untagged resources)

I have some honest questions about this though.  It would STILL take man hours to tag the resources.  I get that they could offer the untagged version and then the tagged version, but it takes a lot of time to tag resources, so if the the thought is that the tagged would die a slow death (which would be sad for those of us who like a tagged resourced), how would those resources that ARE tagged get financed.  Further, if people don't want to pay for a tagged resource, why not just go with OT or other programs and let Logos do what Logos does best?

Thanks for your insight on this.  I've always respected your view point.

Cynthia, anyone that buys Bibles to help others (you) far exceeds anything I might contribute.

I doubt I'm really answering your point/question since the subject isn't easy, but I'll add:

1. I rarely use the tagging, beyond basic text searches (which my other cheaper platforms also do). Effectively, each book I buy pays for your use of tagging.  I'm subsidizing you and no benefit to me. Not complaining, just illustrating.

2. A tagged book doesn't just 'get tagged' once ... it has to be re-tagged over and over as Logos intros new books (that ref previous books), as well as new tagging schemes (feature sets).  An untagged version (for me) has no future expense to Faithlife. I'm cheap to them.

3. Whether the publisher or software vendors, if you buy into a platform, you can't just switch as the platform becomes progressively more expensive (cost of product, cost of hardware). To switch, you must re-buy. Ergo, a new purchaser should think twice about the more expensive platforms. I don't recommend Logos to Christians for this reason.

4. The slow hideous death of tagged versions (if untagged versions were sold at Olivetree prices) is due to the curiousity of 'a good price' ... people rarely want to pay a premium unless a specific benefit ... pastors and such. The principle is similar to subscription TV (a hundred channels you don't need), and insurance (good drivers pay for bad drivers). Logos forces tagging on all, to pay for tagging for the few. I say few based on Bob's comments. 

That said, people buy for total benefit ... my tagless needs are offset by the large Logos library. So, I'm happy to grumble a little.

Denise:  Thanks for your response.  It actually does make quite a bit of sense.

I think I am understanding a bit.  For your use, you really don't need the tagging.  For my use, as an inductive Bible study teacher, author of in-depth Bible studies, and college student, the tagging (and re-tagging/updating), is very important to me, which is why I chose Logos over other platforms (I have tried others, but found them lacking for my use).

Now, to everyone else:

That being said, I guess I would end with my final question in my previous post.  If there are other companies that offer untagged resources at better prices, and that is all that is needed by a specific user, then why not just go with that company and let Logos do what they do best?  Please indulge me in an example. 

I like to edit my pictures, but I'm not a professional and I don't need my pictures for any other reason than personal use.  So, when I looked at purchasing a picture editing program, I chose the inexpensive Adobe Photoshop.  It was a whopping 79.00 and did more than I needed, so when it came time for upgrades, I dropped it and went to the free Picasa, which does everything I need. 

However, for professionals or photo enthusiasts, that's not enough, so they would most likely choose the high end Adobe Photoshop CC or Lightroom.  I don't expect that because I purchased Adobe Photoshop for $79 and it had more than I needed, they should "dumb down" (sorry...I can't find another word so please known the content I mean here) its resources because I can't figure out how to use it all or don't need it all.  Further, if I had chosen Adobe Photoshop CC on the front end and they kept adding new resources for that program, I wouldn't expect them to do it either.  I made the choice to invest in the program and resources, and if it is more than I need, it's my decision to switch to another program that offers what I need for the price I need, or suck it up and pay the price of the program and resources I chose to begin with.  I don't expect the company to offer less because I don't need it or use it or understand how to use it.  Goodness...I hope I'm making sense!

To me, Logos is the Cadillac of Bible Study programs, and for a good reason.  If I can only afford ,or choose, or need, a Hyundai, I shouldn't :

A.  Shop at a Cadillac Auto Mall,

B. Expect Cadillac to stock Hyundai autos and complain if they choose not to.

C.  Complain over the price difference between a Cadillac and a Hyundai.

Shouldn't I just go shop for a Hyundai?

Cynthia in Florida said:

I like to edit my pictures, but I'm not a professional and I don't need my pictures for any other reason than personal use.  So, when I looked at purchasing a picture editing program, I chose the inexpensive Adobe Photoshop.  It was a whopping 79.00 and did more than I needed, so when it came time for upgrades, I dropped it and went to the free Picasa, which does everything I need. 

A distinction is that your pictures can be used by any program. Fortunately, you're not locked in and don't need to go out and take new pictures, when you changed picture editing programs.

Unfortunately the Logos version of a book can only be used by Logos, the Olive Tree version of a book can only be used by Olive Tree, and so on. Anyone who buys the Cadillac of Bible Study programs (or wanted to upgrade to Logos) would need to buy the same books a second time if they wanted to switch to a (better or) cheaper or free program.

Do I wish the Logos resources were cheaper? Sure! It is a little painful to see that I could get the same commentary set for much less on a different bible study platform. I suppose ignorance is bliss, but I use Logos far more than I used Olive Tree, because it's a better experience.

Denise said:

PetahChristian said:

Perhaps you rely on tagging more than you know, and the value of tagging lets the program accomplish a great deal that wouldn't as easily or quickly be possible otherwise?

Petah, you have a bad habit of second-guessing suspiciously intelligent people. I think I'm pretty sure I use little tagging, since my Logos rarely gets used. I read.

When you mentioned buying Logos resources (and subsiding tagging), I assumed you actually used Logos but didn't see the value of tags. My fault!

You're right, Denise, Logos (and its tagged books) would be very expensive, if someone just wanted to read (or do text searches, which other ebook readers can do)!

Denise said:

Cynthia, I agree on your logic visa viz software.  And certainly, Olivetree (Hyundai!) is who I recommend for good pricing, decent selection, and a great app (Bible class-ers almost always a tablet).

Where the problem in the pizza example, and the Hyundai example, is 'the books'. Once you commit, the book format discourages switching. Folks on this forum don't like complainers, telling them to switch .... as if it's a real choice.  True, at the start, for goodness sakes, don't buy Logos. But after you're locked in, pricing is a valid question. I think.

Thanks for your response, Denise.  I agree with everything you said. 

But continuing with the Cadillac example, if I purchase a Cadillac over a Hyundai, I expect to pay for premium gas, higher priced upkeep to keep it running like a Cadillac, and expect repairs to be much more than a Hyundai, no?  Also, I don't expect my Cadillac parts to work on a Hyundai or Hyundai parts to work in a Cadillac, right?   No, I'm locked into a Cadillac, and I don't blame anyone else for my decision to purchase it or having to pay for upkeep or how expensive it is to repair it.  I purchased a Cadillac, plain and simple, because I want(ed) the benefits and quality of a Cadillac. If I changed my mind, I don't blame Cadillac.  I either sell it (which I understand you can do with Logos) and purchase something else, or I CHOOSE to maintain it by investing as much money into it as I believe I need  or want to in order to keep it running as I want/need.  

Also, as I stated to Petah, we can't really fault Logos that the resources are not interchangeable, right?  That's true for all of the programs.  Also, isn't that the way it is when we buy a book elsewhere, we buy it through Kindle or Ibooks or Nook based off of which we prefer.  Those aren't interchangeable either!

Denise:  I hear you my friend!  I truly do. [:)]  I was just trying to show that this is how it is in the real world, no?  And, I also hear that selling the Logos Cadillac might be a serious financial drain, but you know that we never get what we paid for it, from the moment we drive it off the lot.  That's the risk we take in life, and the decision of when or if to bail out and sell our used Cadillac can be gut-wrenching. However, I would think that like a Cadillac, Logos would retain a higher resale value than its "Hyundai" competitors since it offers more with its "luxury" platform than the several other companies that are more similar in its "Hyundai" platform.

I think my personal frustration over this topic (and not with you, I'm speaking generally here) is that in some complaints, there is a nudge to make us feel bad that we have spent "all this money" on the program and their prices keep going up, and ....yada yada yada.    No one forced me to purchase ANY of the resources I own.  NO ONE.  I put in my credit card number and I hit the purchase buttons.  If I spend too much, I don't blame Logos or customers or developers or publishers, or even Bob.  I blame myself!

As always Denise, I enjoy chatting with you and hearing your thoughts.  You keep me thinking, let me tell you! [:)]

mab said:

In the final analysis, are you going to be asked what you paid for Logos or what you did with it?

Is there a "Like" button?

Cynthia in Florida said:

That being said, I guess I would end with my final question in my previous post.  If there are other companies that offer untagged resources at better prices, and that is all that is needed by a specific user, then why not just go with that company and let Logos do what they do best?  Please indulge me in an example. 

Cynthia,

I am with you in most cases I don't need the tagging as such in most resources. 

I have been with Logos for many years and I came to them as a "reluctant" customer mainly because of their cost.  I was quite content with the other software packages.  I am at the point in the past year where I purchased some resources in OT as these weren't available in Logos and still aren't and there were a couple that were significantly cheaper.  I look at these are mainly resources that I would read like those on my Kindle.  It is a mild frustration to have some resources in one app and some in another app. 

If it is a book that I mainly want to read, I'll take the lower priced Kindle, especially when on sale.  But if I want it for some referencing ability I'll get it in Logos if available.  I understand the pricing issues for a company like Logos and they have a significant amount of my monies over the years.  It is kind of like having two cars.  I have my Cadillac and keep it up by adding to it but I also have my Hyundai for other purposes.  It is the American way; have two cars, have two Bible Study tools.

Great answer [Y]

My problem with the cost is that I could get a book provided through Logos much cheaper through Kindle, but the Kindle version is harder to navigate. I could get a hard copy version for the price Logos offers books at.

AMEN!

Is it Easter? Lots of old threads are resurrected today lol

MJ. Smith said:

Wild Eagle said:

Lots of old threads are resurrected today lol

The apocalypse is near!!!! 🔥😂🔥

I'm afraid I don't get on the forums very often anymore because I work materially and minister in a church, but as has been stated this is not the first (or the last, I imagine) time this has come up on the forums. I agree that each of us must make decisions as to what we want to get for our purchase.  I have spent a lot of money with Logos and I admit I don't use the software nearly as efficiently as I could for lack of time, but I also have to take into account the things I must confront.  A quick sampling of the questions I have gotten from young and old or had to teach/preach on in the last few years includes:

Chuch History, Canon, Persian history, biblical interpretation, American history, European history, Hebrew, Greek, inter-testamental period, Roman history, Jewish history, etc.

I need a sizeable library to be able to research/answer these and other questions.  For that reason alone I think Logos is worth it.

In addition to being a pastor, I am also an attorney. I often pay $100-$300 for books because of the value they bring to my profession. Logos is somewhat like that. It is for those who are professionals. Unfortunately, it is not for all.  But fortunately for those who are professionals, or for those who can afford it, it brings great value to their teaching, preaching, and research capabilities. 

Joel Reed said:

Are Christians here to make lots of money through ministry, or help other Christians grow in their faith?

I think both of them. This may not speak to all Christians. But as long as you have mentioned Christians The more money they get the more can produce valuable materials. Regarding Faithlife if they profit more we get advantage from it as well. The company will be stable to continue  and will increase in quality in its products. I can say that they are on a mission to spread the Gospel by occupying the ministers with a great valuable Bible Software.   

Bill Moore said:

Frankly, I’ve found Logos very much worth the money and am happy to see Wordsearch come over. I think it’s a win for WS users.

Bill Moore said:

Daniel, I think your critique should be for LifeWay. Why did LifeWay acquire it Wordsearch? What has LifeWay done with it?

Lifeway acquired WS in 2011, apparently. Ironically, that was just after Logos began producing the Logos4-8 series. Major, major investment. (Be quiet, Libby!)

I think 'price'y' will always dog Logos, even though the cost per purchased book is quite low. I'm choosey, avoid the packages, go for academic (Brill!), and still end up at $6 per book. Less than my novels on Amazon. 

This thread will only die with FL!

Daniel Shipton said:

they should have allowed incoming customers with Wordsearch to come in at the silver level.  

I don't want to beat a dead horse but I've seen this argument and variants of it all over the forums since the merger and I must say it baffles me. Faithlife buying WS allows users to continue accessing their books into the near future.  If they didn't buy it, where would the books go? I've seen companies buy up old companies and let them die in the past. 

I'm no Stan but I feel like Logos is bending over backward trying to accommodate users with their books and perks and other whistles where they could have just said we now own it and transferred what we could, you figure out the rest.  Could this transition have been smoother... yes most definitely.  Change is hard, I get it.  I use both WS and Logos.  I do prefer Logos but WS had resources I couldn't get in Logos and they gave away free books every Friday so I had both .  If I have one piece of advice to WS users is to just relax and be patient.  Faithlife is great in some aspects and slow in others. From looking at the forums, they are working late nights trying to get everyone up and running.  I cannot imagine the work needed to review every WS users library and match them to resources on their side.  Once the dust settles, I'm confident you'll like the software.  

PS: WordSearch is still operational and will be into the near future.  It just wont' receive any updates so there is no rush.

Rene Atchley said:

Yesterday I noticed that my WS items weren't transferring into my Logos program which was a bit annoying.  So I called customer service and merged the different two different accounts (different email addresses) which a few hours later ended up downloading over 1300 items into Logos.  In essence my WS money wasn't lost by simply spending time working with FL people to minimize my cost for switching and maximizing useability of Logos. Now I have to spend several hours trying to figure out how to use this beast for my increased comfort...as opposed to just opening up WS and using it...there's a lesson for the elves at FL.

My prior post was my attempt to be a bit satirical because, as I recall, all those items have been tried by FL in an attempt ( I suppose) to introduce new revenue streams...with less than ideal results.  Is this beast too expensive?  Well yes...as leadership has indicated it's a "business" which is now a near monopoly.  When I own all the crops whose to stop me from charging whatever price I want for the corn?