the new Logos 8 Notes Tool - loss of Logos 7 Note file functionality
hi Logos !! and everyone!
I'm missing loss of funtionality from Logos 7 notes.
Although the new Notes tool has many advantages, there is so much missing. Great there hjave been upgrades to the Favourites menu in Logos 8.2, but still remaining,
TITLED NOTE FILES -
the Title of each NOTE FILE showing up in the windows tab- for one screen organisation assists a lot if there are 10-30 note files open
and so that a new note can be sent directly to a chosen NOTE FILE directly from by right clicking the context tab (going directly to a specific NOTE FILE without any further tagging or renaming etc) allows work at speed
Using 30 notes at the same time is incredibly powerful, it means using them quite differently to post it notes, but using each titled NOTE FILE as a seperate resource for reading, information, they can be quite large and built up over years, clever use of formatting helps, and the split screen.
NOTE FILE functionality is seperate to PBs becuase the NOTE FILE resource can be edited in logos in real time ( the PB has to be rebuilt outside Logos etc) . I
one of over 20 different scenarios- for example when reading a text book I used to have at least 5 Logos 7 NOTE FILES for each of many types of study/ topic / approach/ associated with different aspects of work....., building a series of different resources for later use.
I'm quite convinced no one at LOGOS yet appreciates how the former NOTE FILES could be used as seperate named resources in this way, because if they had have done the functionality would not have been lost.
I'm sure and very surprised.... they did not realise how powerful the Logos 7 notes files could be, and how they could be used..( a great many other logos users also!...).
. and therefore might still not be fully aware how the loss of functionality is impacting some users,
hopefully someone at logos is reading this! I will happily explain more directly to logos or chat over the phone if it would help...
best wishes
Michael
Comments
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The Notes tool will likely continue to get attention and improvements. Here is a link that demonstrates the direction we will likely see the notes tool take.
https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360016616512-Notes-FAQ
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hi
thanks for the link,
which indicates logos 7 NOTES TITLES functionality is indeed being cut.
- I hope somone at Logos can explain they do understand significance of this reduced functionality,
- how it impacts power user of notes wiht many note files opena at the same time.
- Do they really appreciate the fucntionaliy and possiblities of this way of working
- why it is being cut, whether the functionality is simply impossible or not recognised as singificnat or a priority
- why they cannot find a way of implementing NOTE TILES into the windows tab and the context menu for highlighting
best wishes
Michael
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I can tell you this was discussed during the L8 beta. I was a fan of having titles as well. To be honest though this was not a high priority issue for most.
I do not know if there underlying coding hurdles, or something else within the tool that makes it difficult to incorporate titles. Perhaps there is. Maybe someone can FL will see this thread and be able to provide more insight.
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Michael Perry said:
which indicates logos 7 NOTES TITLES functionality is indeed being cut.
That link talks about Note Titles being removed. That's different from Note Document (Notebook) titles.
For your problem with Notebook titles not being shown on tabs, I have no further information beyond Adam's response to Wayne earlier: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/176832/1027818.aspx#1027818
Andrew Batishko | Logos software developer
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hi Fredc thanks for the reply
I would love to see an outline of the discussion of TITLED NOTE FILES at the L8 beta.
I'm convinced that Logos are not aware of the signficance of their functionality on the basis of someone from Logos/Faithlife asking a user on one of these forum/threads how and why the user had so many note files open, why and how so many note files oculd be simulatenously used.....
so I really would like to hear some discussion from logos/faithlife about it.
I've invested a lot of time and money in a very effective way of working, so many ways and variations, using TITLED NOTE FILESas independant resources
I have written posts about this many times recently, but no one from faihtflife has replied the issue is understood, yet alone why the fiuctionality hjas been unrecognised or lost.
Hoping the TITLED NOTE FILES will be restored or ...?
best wishes
Michael
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Fredc said:
I was a fan of having titles as well. To be honest though this was not a high priority issue for most.
Tab titles were nice for L7 on the infrequent occasions when I had two Notes documents open.
Since notebooks will be showing up in Docs, perhaps there will be more of a need for corresponding tab titles for the times when we have more than one notebook document open.
Fredc said:I do not know if there underlying coding hurdles, or something else within the tool that makes it difficult to incorporate titles. Perhaps there is.
If it can be done in L8, I'd prefer a specific (notebook) title rather than a generic Notes title.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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hi Andrew
Thanks for your email. I had just posted the question again elsewhere in this thread.
In the first instance can someone from faithlife/logos provide reassurance the functionality issues are actually understood and recognised??
I keep typing posts about the signficiance of the loss of functionality without knowing whether anyone understands the issue ...I'm repeating over and over again?
best wishes
Michael
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hi
thanks for the coment on this important topic
I would work on as daily basis with 5-30 note files open because I used TITLED NOTE FILES as independant resources, because unlike PBs they cvan be edited in real time. In order to use this system with 1000's titled note files it was necessary toi use the FAVOURITES menu as a Titled notef file LIBRARY.... so I dragged the NOTE FILES to my own folder/subfolder system in the favourites menu
TITLED NOTE FILES and the FAVOURITES MENU worked together - for an amazingly effecitve way of working and using many titled note files.
I'm sure not many users and no one at Logos/faithlife is actually aware of this!!!!!!!
best wishes
Michael
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Michael Perry said:
In the first instance can someone from faithlife/logos provide reassurance the functionality issues are actually understood and recognised??
I keep typing posts about the signficiance of the loss of functionality without knowing whether anyone understands the issue ...I'm repeating over and over again?
I am a Faithlife developer. The green leaf under my portrait indicates that I'm a Faithlife employee.
I suspect no one from Faithlife responded further to the issue being posted in multiple places because Adam Borries responded in the other thread indicating understanding of the problem, and that it should be easy to fix.
I checked, and it turns out that the issue is already being investigated for a possible fix in an upcoming beta. I'm not, however, going to make any promises until it actually shows up implemented in a release. Things happen sometimes...
Andrew Batishko | Logos software developer
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hi Andrew
thank you for your reply. I'm new to the forums, thanks for pointing out how to recognise your Faithlife status.
I had noted that Adam had indicated recognition of that there were
1/ no titles showing up in the tabs, and that should be easy to fix.
however...
2/ nothing has been said about those NOTE FILE TITLES showing up in the context menu after right clicking?
3/ timescales? Obviously I was not aware when the titles in the windows tabs might be fixed, weeks, months, years etc or if it was recognised as significant to be urgent. ??
hence as whether it is marked as urgent or not depends upon recognition of the wider issue, notably how TITLED NOTE FILES can be used as independant resources.....I have continued in the hope this is or might be recognised? and if there are other issues in this regard...
it has been great the FAVOURITES menu issues ( with Note files) have been returned to Logos 7 functionality.
best wishes
Michael
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Hi, Michael,
Just a very quick response here. Yes, we've scheduled the developer work to put the notebook title in the Notes panel tab. This means writing the code; it will take some time for that functionality to filter down through our shipping cycle so you see it working in the app. Like Andrew, I hesitate to put a date on it, since surprises can happen. It might turn out to be harder than we thought, or some other urgent thing might take priority, or maybe it will just turn out to be a bad experience and we need to think of a better solution; but, if all goes well, we are talking on the order of weeks, not years.
On whether notebook titles should appear in the context menu, we have an ongoing internal debate. No decision has been made at the time of this writing.
--Adam
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hi Adam
thanks for your reply.
Regarding the interal debate about whether NOTE FILE TITLEs should appear in the context menu,
I expect its fairly self explanatatory and obvious how that feature works with the TITLED NOTE FILES - ( for the reason it was in Logos 7 and before)
- as it means highlights can be sent to any of choice of a number of different open TITLED NOTE FILES
- without any further tagging or renaming, - which allows a good workflow
FOR EXAMPLE when reading a text book and making simultaneous notes in different contexts/reasons ...., already sorted off into completely different TITLED NOTE FILES which are being used as STANDALONE RESOURCES for collecting information, for editing and reading, cross referencing etc over years....
which becomes effective on a large ongoing scale if the TITLED NOTE FILES are dragged off into the FAVOURITES MENU developed into a USER DEFINED LIBRARY by clever use of folders and sub folders etc, blanks, numbered, font etc
I'm happy to send more info, or messenger chat or phone call regarding this if it is not so obvious to someone who has not been using this sort of system for ages...
best wishes
Michael
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Michael Perry said:
how that feature works with the TITLED NOTE FILES
Just a hint form an old IT professional - "file" is not a term that will serve well in the new notes system. You'll gain proficiency in the new system faster if you think of the notes as a pool of independent notes organized by indexing information/tags. It is similar to Google being a pool of independent documents organized by indexes.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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hi thanks for the tip.
I appreciate that the new NOTES TOOL is a different system for organising NOTES.My point has been a corresonding loss of functionality from the former LOGOS 7 NOTE FILES.
I have been hoping funtionality will be developed in the NOTES TOOL to correspond with the LOGOS 7 TITLED NOTE FILES ...at least.
1/ each note has a NOTE TITLE which shows up in the windows tab ( for easy on screen organisation if 20-30 of them are open. At present there it is just "NOTES" in the tab, so cannot distinguish one from the other.
2/ If the TITLES show up in the context menu- then highlights can be sent to one of a different TITLED NOTE (Resource)
I hope this brief explanation makes sense
best wishes
Michael
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Michael Perry said:
I hope this brief explanation makes sense
Perfectly, and without having to use the new terminology...
Your issue would be one of my frustrations if I used Notes/Highlighting extensively.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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hi Dave
thanks for your reply.
Is it likely I can also be reassured Logos/Faithlife are aware of this issue as described and here recognised as obvious important and urgent?
Or should a direct reply from someone with the Logos/faithlife icon be sought to be sure it is properly recognised or if not then someone at Logos/Faithflife would tell me why not so that i could at least understand why not?
best wishes
Michael
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Michael Perry said:
Or should a direct reply from someone with the Logos/faithlife icon be sought to be sure it is properly recognised or if not then someone at Logos/Faithflife would tell me why not so that i could at least understand why not?
Adam above is the product manager for Logos 8 so is the ideal person to respond to this.
I think, reading his response, that they are planning to address one of the issues you raise and are discussing the other (notebook names in context menu).
And so we are waiting on the outcome of that discussion.
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hi Graham
yes I thought that as well,
but wondered whether I ought to seek more clarity that such an important issue is now fully recognised.
It seems to me that once TITLES in the window's TABS is restored, it must be obvious to restore the complimentary functionality of having those TITLES appear in the CONTEXT menu,
but as the developers have such a lot to consider, I wondered if these posts are read by logos /faithflife or whether it is as obvious as it seems to me, or whether I ought to make a direct message to saomeone else/elsewhere to be sure all matters are taken into consideration before that discussion /decision takes place.
best wishes
Michael
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Michael Perry said:
but as the developers have such a lot to consider, I wondered if these posts are read by logos /faithflife or whether it is as obvious as it seems to me, or whether I ought to make a direct message to saomeone else/elsewhere to be sure all matters are taken into consideration before that discussion /decision takes place.
My best suggestion would be to contact Adam directly - he has messaging details in his post above.
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hi Adam
thanks for your reply.
It seems to me that once TITLES in the window's TABS is restored, it must be obvious to restore the complimentary functionality of having those TITLES appear in the CONTEXT menu?
...for thew restoration of the functionality of Logos 7 notes, which I took for granted for years, but now consider amazing, in its absence... I'm not sure how many other Logos users are fully aware of the potential of using TITLE note files ( or the equivalent functionality in the new notes tool) which can be dragged over to the FAVOURITES Menu, organised as a User defined library though folders and sub folders.... and thereby organise many TITLED note files and simultaneously use them on screen as independant stand alone resources, which can be edited in real time ( unlike PBs) especially if the user like me has several additional computer monitors...
I had just purchased a computer to run four monitors especially for using Logos resources and NOTE files in this way ( before I only had two monitors, but four is great)
best wishes
Michael
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hi Graham
thanks for the reply. I've tried a couple of times and cannot get it to work, maybe partially a time zone thing, I'll keep on trying again
thanks
Michael
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Hello, Michael,
I understand your request perfectly. Nothing has changed since my response a few days ago, but I will try to provide some clarity.
You would like:- The NOTEBOOK TITLE to be visible in the TAB of the Notes tool panel.
Status: This work is already underway. - The TITLE of all open notebooks to appear in the CONTEXT menu as a list. e.g., Add a note to Notebook 1, Add a note to Notebook 2, etc.
Status: Undecided.
Regarding the context menu, I understand why this seems obvious -- really, I do -- but it represents an important user experience (UX) design decision we have to make on behalf of our users. Notebooks are analogous to old note documents, but they are not the same. Notebooks are an important but optional way of organizing notes. In the past, note documents were commonly used to organize notes either by resource or by book of the Bible, both of which are served by the anchors and facets in the Notes tool; using notebooks in the same way is still possible, but is redundant, and ultimately more work for user. Notebooks are still useful for organizing by topic, occasion, and many others, but are still discussing how much prominence to give them in the UI.
0 - The NOTEBOOK TITLE to be visible in the TAB of the Notes tool panel.
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hi Adam
thanks for the reply. ( Not sure if this needs saying, but for a NOTEBOOK title to be visible in the context menu it would appear as the actual title, "Title abc" "Title xyz" note a reference to a notebook by number... Notes(1) or Notes(2) etc which would not be easily usuable with 20 note files open.
I understand design deicsions are made on behalf of all Logos users, however I have referred to
1/ restoration of unexpected loss of functionality ( on which I've invested a lot of time and other resrouces,) there are some other Logos users who use a lot of note documents
2/ The functionality of using notes documents as standalone resources does not seem to be widely recognised at Logos, but is enormous when used along with an extensive folder system int he favourites menu. I am not sure Logos or many other users are fully aware of this power and functionality, but OTHER LOGOS USERS might benefit greatly if it was taught and highlighted.
I had a very similar conversation about using NOTE DOCUMENTS as independant resources with Dan at logos around 2011 before the restoration of the Split Screen in notes, which had been dropped after Libronix went to logos, on the basis of the way Logos considered how most people used notes, I was fairly sure then using Note documents as standalone resources ( which can be edited quickly and instantly, in real time, unlike Pbs) was then not widely recognised at Logos. I
It seems Logos might have created NOTES DOCUMENTS for one reason, without realising they could be legtimately developed to be used in incredibly powerful ways for power users in a variety of ways, I'm grateful Logos recognises it is in everyone's interest to at least fully research the functionality and not to reduce functionality but at least somehow keep it there.
I appreciate your description of how notes were organised in (Logos 7) NOTE DOCUMENTS, by resource or by book of the bible, (which are served by the anchors and facets in the (Logos 8) Notes tool).
My point has been to use LOGOS 7 NOTES DOCUMENTS as standalone resources does not depend upon notes being attached to bible or resources, but can involve user created content or simple copy and paste, or even quite sophisticated combinations with the Logos 7 NOTES DOCUMENTS often being quite substantial resources organised and arranged in their own right, developed over years, and accessible quickly,. each one being far more than its composite collection of notes. Hence the value of being able to have 20 or 30 on screen at the same time, with titles in the tabs for on-screen organisation, and also to be able to instantly rapid fire new notes off to one organised TITLED COLLECTION of notes or another organised TITLED COLLECTION of notes from the context menu, while simulatensouly creating quite different organised TITLE COLLECTIONS of notes for different reasons, when quickly reading books and resources. etc
best wishes
Michael
ps In LOGOS 7 and before ( since Libronix) I have organised my own NOTE DOCUMENTS very efficiently and effectively, exactly as I want them, based on my own organisation system..., by dragging them off to the FAVOURITES MENU ( with an extensive system of folder and sub folder,s number, small large caps, blanks etc--- its a very neat USER CREATED LIBRARY -...and contains over 100,000 notes,,and thousands of pafe references to books and resources, all being constantly used and built up alongside various projects
I can go to any one in a few seconds at most, and I used NOTES DOCUMENTS in about 30 or more different ways
It is great the functionality of the favourites menu with notes has just been restored,
but I hope other Logos users appreciate and are aware of this functionality---- with the TITLES in the TABS.....( and CONTEXT menu?!)
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Adam Borries (Faithlife) said:
Notebooks are analogous to old note documents, but they are not the same.
Once Notebooks are included in the Docs menu, do you think that users will recognize that difference?
Adam Borries (Faithlife) said:are still discussing how much prominence to give them in the UI
Doesn't their upcoming visibility in Docs increase that prominence?
I wonder if users will still envision them as open documents, but wonder why they can no longer right-click to add a note to an open Notebook.
I do think new Notes is a huge improvement, but including Notebooks in Docs might blur the line between the old and the new ways of doing things.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Adam Borries (Faithlife) said:
but it represents an important user experience (UX) design decision we have to make on behalf of our users.
The important decision was to minimise, and remove (some/much) of the functionality of L7 Note files, without consulting users; without their being aware that this would be a consequence of importing their Notes & Highlights into Logos 8 using Notebooks. If regarded as redundant, that is not the opinion of users, who also don't think it is "more work". That functionality (equivalence) should be maintained, without consideration of "prominence" in the UI.
Is it good design to have multiple instances of Notes without a unique Tab title (and I can extend that to aspects of the L8 Tab design)? I am amazed that a note/highlight can end up in "No Notebook"; which can't be listed as a Filter item, but there is an obvious invitation to move it to a named Notebook. Now that is more work.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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PetahChristian said:
I do think new Notes is a huge improvement, but including Notebooks in Docs might blur the line between the old and the new ways of doing things.
There are seeming contradictions in Adam's statements that you recognise, but I think it important to maintain an equivalence between the old and the new, and continue on with the truly new functionality that is a worthwhile improvement.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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hi Dave
I couldn't agree more.
my ideal world would be as follows:
.I would like to see both the old LOGOS 7 Notes Documents system and the new LOGOS 8 NOTES Tool running simultaneously,
with users able to choose which TYPE of note to create, and NO overlap between one type of note or another ( if technical reasons make it implausible to develop) .
(If users wanted to migrate all their Logos 7 notes into the New Logos 8 notes tool then they know it is a one way journey and they could not create new notes in the LOGOS 7 NOTES DOCUMENTS)
All logos have to do is bring back the LOGOS 7 NOTES DOCUMENTS- with all thier old functionality
keep them as seperate entities to the new LOGOS 8 NOTES TOOL and users can choose each occasion what type of note they wish to create....
then can have the best of both worlds...!?!
best wishes
Michael
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hi Adam
I cannot seem to message you to confirm how yet I'm not yet confident you/Logos does yet understand my request perfectly , without acknowledgement of the signficance of the associated functionality, To be frank, I feel sure Logos would not have overlooked maintaining this functionality if it had fully understood it in the first place, sorry to be pedantic.
Some of the issues are covered in the posts following yours. I've tried messaging you to bring the points to your attention personally, but without success and I'm not sure if I should keep on trying to contact you/Logos by other means or whether you are on the case, despite no doubt having many demands on your time at present.
best wishes
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Michael Perry said:
.I would like to see both the old LOGOS 7 Notes Documents system and the new LOGOS 8 NOTES Tool running simultaneously,
with users able to choose which TYPE of note to create, and NO overlap between one type of note or another ( if technical reasons make it implausible to develop)
You can switch to Logos 7 Notes with the command Set Prefer Notes Tool to No, followed by a restart. Notes can be added to your Note files and they will be transferred to the new Notes tool. Then you can switch back with Set Prefer Notes Tool to Yes (followed by a restart).
Faithlife is moving toward equivalence as stated above by Adam, and as seen in Logos 8.3 beta 1, so it is interesting to speculate when they will revoke the ability to switch back.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Michael Perry said:
then can have the best of both worlds...!?!
It's not the best of both worlds for developers to work on two different notes systems. The reality is that the old notes system will eventually go away.
Michael Perry said:All logos have to do is bring back the LOGOS 7 NOTES DOCUMENTS- with all thier old functionality
There were serious limitations (and performance issues) with the old notes documents.
I understand that it's disruptive for you now, but let's give FL the chance to improve the new notes system, and restore some of the missing functionality that FL is aware of and already working on. You might discover that the new notes system turns out to be better in the long run.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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